Author Topic: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....  (Read 96581 times)

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Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2006, 08:32:25 PM »
Sam,

That pizza is looking pretty good.  I'm glad you liked the sauce.  It's unfortunate you were out of tarragon.  I could sit and inhale tarragon aroma all day long.

- red.november


Offline Illiterate

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2006, 09:18:04 PM »
November
I'm not out of it anymore, picked it up about a half hour ago, after tasting how good this is with a missing ingredient I felt the need to duplicate it exactly, I have just micro-waved a second recipe to taste it side by side.
The one thing I didn't mention before is that I made the sauce with 6-in-1 Tomatoes that I ran through my Foley Food Mill mainly to get rid of the seeds (I can't stand seeds) but it also takes care of the peel eliminating most of the bitterness. I was surprised to find these at my Italian Deli on a bottom shelf in an isle with the white bread, ketchup, and mayo, I never go down that isle. That's what happens when we become creatures of habit.

Thank You Again Many Times Over
Sam

Offline OZZIEPIE

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2006, 12:17:42 AM »
always uncooked pizza sauce method and a simple oregano basil oil  recipe is what we choose/use..like the idea of a couple of spoonfulls of onion powder in a 10ltr mix(commercially)maybe just the 1...mmmm..gonna go give it a whirl..have tried a bolognese sauce on base-thats cooked..and we make a top traditional bolognese sauce..still wouldnt go to the effort of cooking off for it..even though we have a traditional kitchen menu listings and all that goes with it..anyway with the cold mix above we add two commercial spoons of paste to thicken it up some what..makes the sauce less watery and sticks too the base better...but thats a rough measurment..goes to what tomatoes you are using if watery use more but watch out coz too much paste will make it go bitter..there is a fine line where experience will overcome..not hard just experiment you will see..
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Offline mivler

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2006, 11:02:18 PM »
November,

I have used MAS many times; however Iím not quite sure what my specific goals are.

I donít think the thermometer I used in the experiment to test my microwave wattage is too accurate so I got a new one. I havenít done the experiment again to see how hot the water gets. The problem is that when I have just used a spray of water with my spices, it dries up in much less than 2 minutes therefore I started using more water. When I use more water it gets way too hot in less than two minutes. Am I trying to get the temp as close to 160 without going over or am I trying to maintain certain wattage for 2 minutes?

Also, when I use sauce that made a few days earlier I usually heat it up on the stove. Would I be better off heating it up gently (to just warm) in the microwave to extract more flavor or would that have a negative impact on the tomatoes in the sauce?

Also can you explain the part about the sauce gelling from onions? I originally thought nuking the onions was just supposed to take out the bite (or bitterness out of the flavor).

By the way, when I tried your sauce something didnít taste right. I figured out that the dried onions I used were rancid. I thought about the fact that Ĺ of my seasonings are over 2 years old and probably ľ of them are over 5 years old. Needless to say I have gotten rid of most of them but I will probably not replace all of them right away.


Thanks,

Michael

Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2006, 12:27:42 AM »
Michael,

The goal is efficient extraction, and it can be measured in two ways: the end temperature is approximately 160 F, or a certain amount of energy measured in watts per second has been absorbed into your mixture.† It doesn't matter how you go about determining the energy used, as long as it points to the same result.† Measuring the end temperature is just one way of determining the energy absorbed, and probably the most convenient for you.† For example, because of how a microwave oven works, you won't register a very high temperature if you don't add enough water (as you've seen) since the source of the thermal energy is the water itself, converted from the microwaves.† The solution: add more water in the beginning until the end temperature reaches 160 F.† It's not the end of the world if you add a little too much water.† All you'll end up with is more water in the end.† If you add way too much water, which I doubt you're doing, you won't extract a high percentage from the seasonings.† It's also not a big deal if the end temperature is over 160 F, as this is a sign you've extracted all you can within reason, but you deal with the evaporation of some resins which would have otherwise provided flavor.

There isn't a lot of "flavor" locked up in the cell structure of tomatoes.† How you warm your tomato sauce isn't critical at all.† I am curious why you're heating the sauce though.† Is it for dipping breadsticks or something like that?† If not for using as a side sauce, I wouldn't heat up the sauce for anything.† That's one of the main reasons for using MAE on the seasonings in the first place.

The following abstract is from University of California's Department of Food Science and Technology Journal of Food Processing and Preservation (2002):

"During the dehydration of onion and garlic products, use of high temperatures is undesirable due to the potential loss of aroma and flavor characteristics. As a consequence, residual pectinesterase (PE) activity may be found in these dehydrated spices. This study reports the presence of PE activity in raw onions and in dehydrated onion and garlic products. Pectinesterase activity is higher in the raw onion stem disks, and dehydrated products made from this tissue, than in the bulbs. Dehydrated onion products induced gelation of citrus pectin solutions and tomato purees. Although some inactivation of PE in dehydrated onion water suspensions and extracts was observed after 10 min at 50C, complete inactivation required 2 min at 82C. Commercial dehydration operations may require reevaluation to eliminate residual PE activity in dehydrated onion and garlic products."

Yeah, it helps to have seasonings not older than six months.† Herbs and spices cost so little compared to the impact they make on our food.† I usually buy all new seasonings every couple of months whether I'm out or not, and I keep the older stuff for emergencies.

- red.november

Offline amishland

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2006, 01:32:07 AM »
November....thanx for your explanation on using the MAE process for making sauce.  I'm a newbie continually searching and learning.

The MAE makes sense to me, and will give it a try soon. :pizza:

Offline mivler

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2006, 04:42:22 AM »
November,

I have found that when I make pizza with sauce right out of the refrigerator there is a difference in the crust under the sauce. I feel it is a little gummy when I donít warm the sauce to about room temperature. I believe my refrigerator runs a little cold (mid 30ís F).

Thanks for the clarification on MAE.

Michael

Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2006, 10:46:01 AM »
Michael,

I understand letting the sauce come to room temperature.  I just didn't know why you wanted to warm it using extra energy (e.g. from a stove or microwave oven).  You could just put a metal bowl in the oven while it's preheating, take it out when it gets about 200 F, and serve how much sauce you expect to use into the bowl to sit until you're ready to use it.  I just let the sauce I'm going to use sit out on the counter for about an hour  before I use it on the pizzas.

- red.november

Offline mivler

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2006, 01:20:17 PM »
November,

I'll have to try that. When I take my dough out I'll also take out the sauce too. I usually warm my sauce to a little warmer than room temperature. Also, my kitchen is cold in the winter (probably low 60's). I will try at room temperature sauce to see if I can tell a difference.

Michael


Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2006, 02:10:44 PM »
I thought I would provide an update to my #2 sauce preparation and ingredients since it relates the MAE process discussed here.  For those of you who enjoy the flavor of wine in their sauce, and don't necessarily care whether the alcohol comes with it, one of my alternative methods for preparing #2 might be of interest.  Instead of using 14g of granulated cane sugar, I prepare the following in its stead:

24g Red Flame Raisins (containing approximately 14g of unlocked simple sugars)
24g water

Grind and puree raisins and water into a thin paste.  A few extra raisins and water are usually needed because of what clings to the surface of the mixer/grinder, but as long as the proportions are 1:1, the amount to measure can remain consistant.  Pour 48g of this thin paste into a microwave safe container and add the rest of the seasonings intended for MAE.  This "paste process" takes care of the need for water in the MAE process, so there's no procedural waste.  I also think the flavor and body of the sauce is improved by using red raisins.

- red.november

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2006, 08:31:26 PM »
November,
Your posts are a treasure to be cherished. You have provided a blueprint for precisely calculating the flavor profile of one of the big three ingredients - sauce. You previously lifted the fog from my eyes as it relates to yeast and now seasonings and sauce. I really appreciate the opportunity you have given all of us to understand the science behind the logic. Fascinating to say the least. Well done!

If it is not too much of a bother, I would like your thoughts on how you would adapt your #2 sauce preparation for use with crushed fresh tomatoes in lieu of a tomato puree.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything Youíd Want.
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Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2006, 10:49:02 PM »
pftaylor,

Thank you for your considerate evaluation.  The use of crushed fresh tomatoes denotes a preference for a more bursting tomato flavor, as opposed to a steady tomato flavor like a puree provides.  This means you should really just concentrate on seasoning the liquified portion of your sauce.  I would lower the amount of seasonings by 23%.  (Of course you can round that to the nearest convenient percentage.)

- red.november

Offline MWTC

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Re: Red November Pizza Sauce (#2)
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2007, 11:59:04 AM »
I decided to finally release my #2 pizza sauce into the wild, and figured I would put it here since the instructions for handling the herbs and spices in the microwave are already in this thread.† First the ingredients, then a few notes, then a few instructions, and finally a few more notes.

Red November Sauce (#2)
†28 oz   11.3 NTSS (1.053 g/cc) tomato puree
†14 g   sucrose
† †7 g   salt
3.5 g   herbs & spices (see below)
3.5 g   garlic powder
3.5 g   onion powder

herbs & spices (dried & crushed)
† earthy component
† † 4 vu oregano
† † 2 vu marjoram
† † 1 vu parsley
† sweet component
† † 4 vu basil
† † 2 vu tarragon
† † 1 vu fennel seed
† savory component
† † 2 vu rosemary
† † 2 vu thyme
† spicy component
† † 1 vu paprika
† † 1 vu black pepper

Notes:
   "vu" stands for volume unit since the measurements are expressed in ratios. If measured accurately and the herbs are crushed sufficiently, the total mass should be 3.5g when 1 vu = 1/8 tsp.
Instructions:
   Add the sucrose (table sugar) and salt to the sauce first and whisk.† In a separate sealable container measure and mix all the herbs and spices as well as the garlic and onion powders.† I recommend choosing a volume unit that allows you to match your quantity of puree exactly.† Trying to divide the herbs and spices after mixing will lead to uneven distribution.† Seal the container and shake well.† Pour the mixture into a microwaveable container such as a small Pyrex measuring cup.† Add just enough filtered water to the mixture so that it is completely moist, but not suspended in water.† Follow the microwave instructions in my two previous posts.† Add the herbs and spices to the puree.† Whisk and place in refrigerator to chill for at least 6 hours before using.
Notes:
   As you might be able to tell, the herbs and spices are deliberately matched according to a specific flavor profile.† There's a lot I could say about the reasoning behind the seasoning, as it took a long time to investigate each herb and spice in order to give it a profile component value, but it all still comes down to how each person thinks it tastes.† The more experienced on this site should already know this, but be sure the puree has no added substances (e.g. salt, citric acid, seasonings) if you buy it canned.† I hope I covered everything.

- red.november

Red.November

Thank-you for this recipe.  Great job.  ;D  I found it to be excellent. Now I get to work with it.

Did you release your #1 sauce recipe?

MWTC  :chef:

Offline November

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Re: Red November Pizza Sauce (#2)
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2007, 12:39:46 PM »
MWTC,

Did you release your #1 sauce recipe?

Thank you.  I'm glad you liked it.  You win the prize for being the first person to ask that.  It's actually an inside joke, as there is no single #1 sauce.  #2 is just the succession to a lot of "research" sauces.  In case you're wondering, there is no #3 either.  I created the sauce I was seeking and that was the end of it.

- red.november

Offline MWTC

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2007, 02:07:32 PM »
Red,

Have you tried a pressed clove of fresh garlic cooked in Olive Oil added to the recipe?
This is the first thing I want to try. If so is there a microwave technique that you suggest in stead of cooking the garlic in a pan.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2007, 03:16:06 PM »
MWTC,

From the very beginning of my sauce research, I never wanted to add fresh herbs or spices, especially garlic and onion, for one major reason: flavor concentration.† I am familiar with the taste of fresh garlic in all kinds of dishes, and I think it's suitable in many cases, superior in a few.† The problem I see is in the constituents of the fresh seasonings that don't contribute to flavor, namely water.† The way I look at an ingredient is basically like this: structure (e.g. cellulose, protein), inorganic nutrients (e.g. minerals, salts), sugars, essential molecules (e.g. alkaloids, aldehydes, esters, phenols), and water.† Since the tomato comes with its own water, water from the herbs and spices just isn't necessary, and in my case where I'm trying to maintain a certain specific gravity (density) for my sauce and a little extra moisture is already in play from MAE, it's unwelcome.† Unless you're making a paste out of the fresh garlic, some of it will be going to waste since the sauce will only leach from the surface of the garlic.

With that said, anybody who likes to use fresh garlic should try it.† My reasons for not using it shouldn't prevent someone else from doing it.† If you roast your garlic and crush it into a paste with a mortal and pestle, you will likely get a very good ingredient for a pizza sauce, and then there's no reason to microwave it.† That's the only way I would be inclined to do it other than what I do now, but it's time prohibitive for me.† I have also used Amore Italian Garlic Paste in my pasta sauces before, but that's because I also add olive oil to my pasta sauces.† I don't add oil to my pizza sauce because water is a better solvent that oil when it comes the cold infusion of seasonings.† When I make pasta sauce, I make it on the stove for immediate consumption.† If I decide I want oil on my pizza, I add it to the dough just before applying the sauce.

- red.november

Offline MWTC

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2007, 05:32:49 PM »
-red.november,

Do you think roasting garlic is better than pan frying/cooking it for sauce?  :-\

MWTC  :chef:


Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2007, 05:50:28 PM »
MWTC,

I think that's largely a matter of personal preference.  Obviously you get a nuttier flavor with roasting, but you can also lightly pan roast your garlic dry, then add a bit of oil at the end for a somewhat smoother flavor.  I mentioned (dry) roasting because of how I would do it if.  As I mentioned before, I don't put oil in my pizza sauce, so I would keep things dry.  You'll have to try it both ways and see which way you like better.

- red.november

Offline pkasten

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2007, 08:44:35 PM »
Quote
I've always been under the impression that you could not taste test an uncooked pizza sauce because the ingredients needed the heat to release their respective flavors. Is there much truth to this?

Sorry, guys.. going back to the original question here.  I skimmed the replies and did not really see a solution, so...

Why not take a little bit of your sauce, put it in a pan, heat it for a few minutes, and taste it to see if it where you want it?  That way, you can have your sauce and taste it too.  ;)

Offline pkasten

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2007, 08:51:47 PM »
Also, if you want a nice, mellow garlic flavor, take raw garlic, put it in some milk or cream, heat it to a boil, take it off the heat and let it steep for a few minutes, strain it, and then use it.  The dairy will absorb a lot of the flavor, drastically reducing the sharp raw garlic bite without adding that nutty roasted flavor that can easily take over the flavor of your sauce.  As we all know, milk, as it ages, absorbs flavors from other stuff in your fridge.  This is just a cool way of harnessing that property of the dairy...  and you can use the milk or cream afterwards to make yourself some great garlic alfredo sauce or something...

Paul

Offline MWTC

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2007, 10:47:19 AM »
Interesting,  :D  I'll give it a try!!!

MWTC  :chef:

Offline November

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Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) by weight
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2007, 10:40:04 PM »
Per recent interest, here's Red November Pizza Sauce #2 by weight.  This is the definitive quantitative set based on my initial research into complimentary chemical compounds responsible for flavor and aroma.  If someone were to make a really large batch of this sauce, this would be the set of numbers to use, not the volumetric ones.

1000.000000
tomato puree @ 1.053 g/cc
17.600000
sucrose
8.800000
kosher salt
4.400000
garlic powder
4.400000
onion powder
0.953157
black pepper
0.814342
paprika
0.536131
rosemary
0.532948
oregano
0.481703
basil
0.359930
thyme
0.323250
fennel seed
0.198253
tarragon
0.141065
marjoram
0.059226
parsley

- red.november

Offline MWTC

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2007, 11:34:30 PM »
Sweet!!!!!  ;D

You are the Man.

Thank-you Red November!

MWTC  :chef:

Offline MWTC

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2007, 12:28:08 AM »
Red.November,

What would be the numbers be if the puree was 794 grams? Thats the total weight for 1 can of Escalon 6 in 1 All Purpose Ground Tomatoes.

MWTC  :chef:
 

Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2007, 12:40:09 AM »
MWTC, just multiply everything by 0.794.


 

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