Author Topic: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....  (Read 85542 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2007, 04:55:09 PM »
Sourdough Girl

How about coming up with a great pizza sauce for all of us to try. Use that knowledge to add to the choices that we have. I love to try new pizza sauces. Try Red.November's Sauce #2 and come up with something that is great and is different from Red's and We will all applaud you.

MWTC  :chef:

Don't debate, CREATE  ;D


Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2007, 05:41:26 PM »
perennial herbs are often harvested twice a year... [...] I stand by the statement that herbs are harvested "once a year".

Also, the second sentence of the above quote begs the question of the necessity of flowering for harvest.  In actuality, herbs are harvested BEFORE flowering

I don't think it begs such a question.  Nobody stated that flowering was necessary, only that the harvest time is centered around the blooming schedule.  For all it matters, growers could harvest six times a year if they really wanted.  It would just be a waste of time though as the best time to harvest is just before blooming.  I also don't think anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of plant cycles and growing seasons would assume herbs bloom in the winter.  That's why I didn't get into the details of harvest times.  I presumed people were smart enough to know at least that much.

If anybody is actually interested in an objective, statistical look at freshness based on harvesting and inventory rotation cycles I can provide the numbers.

- red.november

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2007, 05:46:15 PM »
come up with something that is great and is different

I know I wouldn't mind seeing what sourdough girl can come up with.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22457
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2007, 06:16:45 PM »
sourdough girl,

A little over a year ago, I purchased some dried Sicilian wild oregano from an Italian market in Dallas. Apparently, the oregano was harvested with the flowers and allowed to dry. A photo of the product I bought is shown in this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2732.msg23611.html#msg23611 (Reply 14). Since I bought the Sicilian dried oregano, I was able to buy an Italian oregano plant which I planted in my back yard with great success. I recently harvested a bunch of stems and flowers and they are now hanging in my kitchen to dry. What I am wondering is whether the harvesting method with the flowers is a good thing or would it have been better to harvest just the leaves before the flowers arrived. Or is there a legitimate reason for having both the leaves and the flowers, apart from the nice presentation?

Peter

Offline sourdough girl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 664
  • Location: Marysville, WA
  • First the bread, NOW the pizza dough!
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2007, 06:38:41 PM »
red.november,

At least this time, you didn't tell me everything I said was completely wrong.  That's progress. 

IMHO, it's up to each individual to decide how to handle their pantry inventory with the knowledge they have.  More viewpoints won't hurt them, even if those viewpoints don't completely agree.  It's not completely objective, it's subjective as well.

~sd 
Never trust a skinny cook!

Offline sourdough girl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 664
  • Location: Marysville, WA
  • First the bread, NOW the pizza dough!
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2007, 07:08:57 PM »
pete-zza,

The oregano you purchased was probably dried with flowers for a nicer presentation, although the flavor may be not as strong for the reasons I mentioned in a previous post.  Regular folks (not pizza-heads, like us!) who go to farmer's markets to buy herbs probably don't realize there's any difference.  I also know several people who buy dried herbs like these to add to dried arrangements, so the flowers make them much more desireable from an artistic standpoint.

In my herb garden, I watch for buds to start forming and when they do, I shear the plants to about half their height and dry what I sheared.  Then, I wait a few weeks (depending on the herb) for the leafy growth to start filling in.  When they get bushier, I give them what I call a "major haircut" again with the garden shears.  I do this mid-morning when any dew has dried but the sun hasn't gotten hot. (Not much of a problem here in the Seattle area until late July and August)  I put the harvest into large paper bags with a couple holes punched in the sides, close the bags up and put them on top of a 7-ft bookcase to dry.  I harvest several times per season, but especially when I see those pesky buds forming.  Then, in the fall, I let them go to seed so that those seeds will volunteer in the spring.

So, if you want culinary use herbs, cut before flowering for strongest flavor.  If you want to use the herbs for floral arrangements for your home, cut with flowers. 

BTW, arrangements of dried herbs... or even fresh ones... really make a nice, spicy aroma in the house!  I often cut fresh catmint, lavender and other herbs to go with the regular flowers... and add some prunings from my bay trees.  Sure makes the house smell nice... but can also make you hungry!

~sd

Never trust a skinny cook!

Offline sourdough girl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 664
  • Location: Marysville, WA
  • First the bread, NOW the pizza dough!
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2007, 07:35:58 PM »
red.november and MWTC

Thanks for the pizza sauce challenge, but I doubt I will be posting a recipe because I'm intimidated by red.november's chemical expertise.  Also, I flavor my sauces mostly with fresh herbs from my garden ALMOST all year round since I'm in a very temperate climate.  The balance of the year (basically, December, January and February) I use herbs that I have dried myself.  The only one on his list of ingredients that I haven't started growing yet is fennel.  So, as good as my sauce tastes to me, it may not taste the same with the use of herbs other than mine.  I make sauce from the heart, like the Italian woman, Mrs. Cardillo, who lived next to my grandparents in Exeter, PA (Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area) not from the chemistry book. Most of the time, I cook by taste, not by recipe.  I know, you'll call it a cop-out, but as I stated, red.november intimidates me.

His sauce #2 appears to run the gamut of "italian" herbs.  My sauce has no pepper, tarragon or paprika and considerably less sugar.  I sometimes don't even add sugar at all if the tomatoes are not highly acidic.  I also don't buy special brands of tomatoes (6 in 1, for instance) that I read about on this site quite often because they are not available on the grocery shelf in my area.  I have found a store brand of tomatoes that I really like... nice, rich tomato-y flavor, tart but not overly-acidic... and when MY tomatoes are ripe, the cans stay in the cupboard.

And then, of course, there's the fact that I was born and raised on the West Coast.  That's a strike against me right there, I'm sure!  Which is actually the reason that I joined this forum in the first place... trying to capture an East Coast pizza flavor!  I'm not saying that East Coasters are pizza (or food in general) snobs, just that they are rabidly loyal to their own neighborhood styles, and with good reason. 

~sd
p.s.  I also use only the best imported extra-virgin olive oils... if the photo I'm trying to attach comes through, check out the last line on the label....
Never trust a skinny cook!

Offline DWChun

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 99
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2007, 07:54:37 PM »
p.s.  I also use only the best imported extra-virgin olive oils... if the photo I'm trying to attach comes through, check out the last line on the label....


Hehehe, natural is better than unnatural, I suppose!


DW

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2007, 08:02:54 PM »
sourdough girl,

It's up to you whether you want to post your sauce recipe.  I'm not sure what my chemical expertise has to do with what seasonings you like in your sauce.  We all have our own preferences.

- red.november

Offline Y-TOWN

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 218
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2007, 09:13:35 PM »
And then, of course, there's the fact that I was born and raised on the West Coast.  That's a strike against me right there, I'm sure!

Humm - left coast - good pizza out that way ??

Kind of reminds of trying to get a good NY slice in Florida

;D


Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2007, 10:09:58 AM »
Which perfectly illustrates the saying, "After all is said and done, much is said and little is done".

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22457
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2007, 10:22:18 AM »
MWTC,

Sounds like you are talking about our elected officials in Washington :-D.

Peter

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2007, 11:10:57 AM »
I look for results not useless verbage.

MWTC  :chef:

I apologize for the last couple comments.  :angel:

Offline sourdough girl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 664
  • Location: Marysville, WA
  • First the bread, NOW the pizza dough!
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2007, 04:48:05 PM »
Boy, there are some tough critics out there.

"forum >noun (pl. forums)  1 a meeting or medium for an exchange of views."
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just clarifying why we're all here.

Verbage is not useless if SOMEBODY out there can learn something from it.  I have already learned a LOT in my 1 day, 37 minutes on these threads.  Possibly there are other newbies (or even oldbies) who can learn from the disCUSSions posted by everyone here. And I would hate to think that some new members, upon reading this thread, would decide not to contribute for fear of posting useless verbage.

OK, I will, after all, post my sauce recipe, but it will be in a few days because I have to quantify it.  What a perfect excuse to have pizza tomorrow night!

Rkos: yes, there IS good pizza to be found out here on the left coast... but you have to really look for it.  DH and I found a good place when we lived in Kirkland, WA.  First it was called Mama's Own Pizza, then changed its name to Dan and Dave's.  Little hole-in-the-wall storefront, and GOOD pizza.  We got to know the owners, one of whom was a local kid and the other was from NJ, I believe.  We moved further north (more rural area) and have been unable to find a place to satisfy the cravings, so that's why I've been chasing the NE PA style pizza of my childhood. 

~sd
Never trust a skinny cook!

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2007, 05:01:13 PM »
As you stated, exchange of views, that was my view.

I realize that it was crass, I will be more sensitive in the future. Again I apologize.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Y-TOWN

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 218
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2007, 11:20:33 PM »
"OK, I will, after all, post my sauce recipe, but it will be in a few days because I have to quantify it."

Sourdough Girl,

I would really like to try your sauce recipe.

 - I've got my dough recipe and procedure down so it's the same each time and tastes great to me.

The sauce recipe I still play around with a little - can't seem to get the exact sauce taste I'm looking for. Maybe yours will be the one. :chef:

Thanks !

Offline sourdough girl

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 664
  • Location: Marysville, WA
  • First the bread, NOW the pizza dough!
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #116 on: June 16, 2007, 04:15:30 PM »
OK, I have quantified my sauce and am hereby submitting:

14.5 oz your favorite tomato product
2 T tomato paste
1 t dried oregano
1/2 t dried thyme
1/2 t dried marjoram
1/4 t dried basil
1 t onion powder
1/2 t granulated garlic
1/2 t coarse kosher salt
1 dried bay leaf
1/2 oz rind of parm reggiano or pecorino romano, cut into 6 or 8 small chunks

notes:
I use a crushed tomato product which has juice, citric acid and salt added.  I usually drain any excessive "juice"
I often use fresh herbs from my garden and double the amount with the exception of the fresh bay leaf, which I leave at one.
The kosher salt is Morton's
The tomato paste is Amore, double concentrated, in the tube
I always save the rinds of parm reggiano and pecorino romano in the freezer (if long-term storage is needed!) otherwise in the fridge.  Either way, I put the hacked-up chunks in a plastic bag and submerge in warm water for a short time to warm quickly and release oils. 
If using the romano, you may want to cut the salt back a little bit as the cheese is quite salty on its own.
NB: I do not use any sugar in my sauce because I do NOT like sweet sauce.  The tomato product I have found (store-brand, surprisingly enough) is acidic, but not overly so, therefore, for my tastes, no sugar is needed.

This was enough sauce to make an "Old Forge" style fried-dough pizza in a 17" X 12" (interior measurement) pan. 

I first rest this sauce at room temp for 2 hours (allowed table time as per health dept guidelines) then rest in the fridge at least overnight and bring to room temp for another 2 hours before adding to the skin, also wicking away any accumulated watery juice on the surface.  Bay leaf and cheese chunks are removed before use. (The cheese chunks make a tasty snack as they are well softened by the acidic sauce... quoth DH, the cheese-troll, lurking in the kitchen)

This is not the apparently very plain "Tommy's-Pizza L'oven-style" sauce that I am seeking.  I did use a recipe from Dominick DeAngelis' book, "The Art of Pizza Making" (Old Forge sauce, since it sounded similar to what I think Tommy's might have used) on about a third of the skin that I just baked.  Stupidly (for me, at least) I added the sugar that he recommends.  WAY too sweet... not at all like the sauce I remember.

I used to make cooked sauces, starting with tomato sauce, dried herbs, red wine, EV olive oil... but have since decided that uncooked is the proper way.  I don't remember Mrs. Cardillo ever cooking pizza sauce... just fresh tomatoes and herbs from the garden!

~sd

(corrected a spelling error)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 07:43:31 PM by sourdough girl »
Never trust a skinny cook!

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2007, 01:53:41 PM »
Thank-you Sourdough Girl

I will be giving it a try very soon. I'll let you know my results.

I know its easy to talk and a whole different ballgame when you put yourself out there.

Respect and Appreciation.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Adydar

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
  • Location: PA
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #118 on: June 23, 2007, 08:40:21 PM »
Just an update, was finally able to do another test.  Appears my mistake was not microwaving the spices on high enough power.  I tested the wattage of my microwave and found I needed to use 50% power level.  That did the trick, sauce turned out excellent.  Thanks Red.

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 516
Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #119 on: June 28, 2007, 12:37:43 PM »
Red.November

I have a question.

I made up a batch of your Sauce Recipe #2 using a large #10 can of 6 in 1. I put three jars into the fridge and used them up. I froze the last that wouldn't fit into the three jars. After I used the three, I thawed out the remaining sauce, about 28oz. and found it to be more watery than the unfrozen ones. The taste was still excellent but the watery element confused me. Would you explain what happened to make it more watery. And is there anything that can be done to correct that increase, like cooking it out, or will that ruin it?

MWTC  :chef: