Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....

[KoolDO]

November,
Could your recipe include red wine instead of sugar, water or red raisins.  If it could be implemented successfully how would the amount of sugar, alcohol, water, etc. in the wine be accounted for to be appropriately added into your recipe?

Thanks,
Joe

[November]

Could your recipe include red wine instead of sugar, water or red raisins.  If it could be implemented successfully how would the amount of sugar, alcohol, water, etc. in the wine be accounted for to be appropriately added into your recipe?

First, just to clarify, I assume the water you are talking about is in addition to a paste.  I don't personally use a paste and water preparation.  I just use tomato puree.  I mentioned paste in the beginning because I figured it would be easier for people to deal with larger quantities of water, and thus some paste would be used to bring the viscosity back to puree level.  The only water I add is to the seasonings to rehydrate them.

What you're proposing is a fairly dramatic change to the flavor profile.  To answer your first question, you could throw anything you want in there but then it's no longer the same recipe with mere substitutions.  It's a different recipe.  There's nothing wrong with that, but I think the substitutions you're proposing have low parity.  Alcoholic beverages make such an overwhelming mark on the foods they're added to.  I would not be able to comment on how much red wine to add as I do not drink it, nor would I put it in my sauce.  Perhaps someone else can share how much wine they add to their sauce.

- red.november

[KoolDO]

First, just to clarify, I assume the water you are talking about is in addition to a paste.  I don't personally use a paste and water preparation.  I just use tomato puree.

What I meant was to put the herbs and spices into wine instead of water in the microwave to release the flavors.  Then omit the sugar because there is sugar in the wine.

Also, I have a few questions I'd like to make sure I am following your recipe properly because tomorrow I'm going to attempt your sauce.  This is the general run down.

Step1:  Take the 28 ounce can of whole peeled plum tomatoes get rid of water the tomatoes are sitting in and then cut the tomatoes open and take the seeds out.  Rinse the tomatoes.  Use the immersion blender or whatever to make it sauce.
Step 2:  Take all the ingredients you listed previously in the thread in water and microwave on 30% power assuming you have a 1000 watt microwave for 2 min.
Step 3:  Add herbs into the sauce.
Step 4: Refrigerate

When I do attempt it tomorrow I will follow it more specifically as detailed in the thread, I just wanted to make sure I have the general rundown.

[November]

What I meant was to put the herbs and spices into wine instead of water in the microwave to release the flavors.  Then omit the sugar because there is sugar in the wine.

KoolDO,

I don't think I would have ever guessed that's what you were talking about.  There isn't that much sugar in wine.  According to UDSA SR20, a red table wine has less than 1% simple sugars.  Even dessert wines have less than 8%.  With normally only using about 11 g of water, wine isn't going to provide a substitution for sugar if your intention is to add sugar according to the recipe.  Looking back at the raisin post, I can see where you might think to add up to 24 g of water, but that was only because of how difficult it is to extract the sugar from the raisins.  You would have to add 175 g of dessert wine or as much as 1400 g of red table wine to achieve 14 g of sugar.  This is why I assumed you were talking about using paste, because without it, that's a pretty "watery" sauce.

I have mentioned using alcohol as a substitution for water in the MAE process (not the recipe) because it, like water, will mostly evaporate during and after microwaving.  You're welcome to try using red wine in the MAE process, but I would stick to a time closer to 60 seconds for a 1000 watt microwave oven.  If you have a thermometer, you can always test to see if you're reaching 160°F.

- red.november

[KoolDO]

Ok so here's my first attempt at your pizza sauce.  I'll give you the rundown because I'd like to double check that I did the process correctly.

Step 1:  I opened and drained a can of 28 ounce can of San Marzano tomatoes leaving only the tomatoes.  I then rinsed the tomatoes under water and destemmed the tomatoes using a knife.  After that I put them into a seperate container and using an immersion blender I blended them.
 
Step 2: After blending them together I measured the mass and volume to find the density to make sure it was comparable to yours.
The volume was 324 mL.  I then weighed them and it was 321g.  So then I divided them to get the density and it came to 1.00935.
I then multiplied 1/8 times the volume units to find the amount in teaspoons.
This is what I came up with:

garlic powder 3.5g
onion powder 3.5g
salt 7g
sucrose 14g

oregano .5tsp(4 vu)
marjoram .25tsp(2vu)
parsley(didn't have any)

basil .5tsp(4vu)
tarragon .25tsp(2vu)
fennel seed .125tsp(1vu)

rosemary .25tsp(2vu)
thyme .25tsp(2vu)
paprika .125tsp(1vu)
black pepper .125tsp(1vu)

Step 3: First I added the sucrose and salt to the sauce and whisked. I put the herbs in spices into a container mixed them around then added them to a pryrex cup and moistened them with water.  I then microwaved them cup at 30 % power in my 1000watt microwave for 2 min.  After I added them to the sauce and whisked.  The final step was to refrigerate for 6 hours before I added it as topping to my first NY ELite attempt(which came out very well, which I will be posting when I have more time)

Results:  I think I screwed something up because I think there was to much onion and or garlic powder, the sauce came out kind of a pinkish color rather
than red.  I think what happened was that i wound up discarding some of the tomatoes because I didn't like the way they looked, leaving me less sauce. 
The overall density was 1.00935 versus your 1.053.  It also did'nt look like it would make 9 14" pizze.  So what I did was open another can and added more tomatoes and repeated the process but this time I didn't add any garlic or onion powders and added it to the mix.  After I made this adjustment the sauce tasted really good.  I got a lot of compliments from family and friends particularly on the sauce.  Anyway, if you see any way that I managed to screw up your sauce or have any suggestions please let me know.  Also, I could not find any tomatoes that don't contain any citric acid or salt, and I have searched high and low.  I'm curious as to which tomatoes that you use that don't have anything in the can other than the tomatoes and the puree and that you can recommend.

Thanks a lot, I really enjoyed your sauce and I also really enjoy your posts as well.
-Joe

[November]

Joe,

The sauce should obviously not be pink.  Other than getting messed up somewhere around your going back and forth with the tomato quantity or too much powder, I don't know what you could have done to cause it to turn pink.  I'm sure you'll have a better idea of what happened if you try it again.  I'm glad you liked the sauce in the end.

I use canned pureed or boxed strained tomatoes.  The two brands available in my area are Pomi (http://www.pennmac.com/items/96) and Great Value found at Wal*Mart.

- red.november

[alamout]

November,
made up a jar of your sauce for some pizzas earlier this week, it's sensational!

Thanks for the MAE tip as well as the flavour profiles, makes understanding what herbs are contributing which flavours a lot easier.

It's going to go head to head this weekend with a good friend who's a big believer in cooked sauces, I'll see if I can turn him around!

One question, you said somewhere you left your sauce quite a while in the fridge? I used a jar of passata (tomato puree) for mine, and it says to use within 3 days of opening, reckon that's paranoia or am I better to play it safe.

[November]

I used a jar of passata (tomato puree) for mine, and it says to use within 3 days of opening, reckon that's paranoia or am I better to play it safe.

Does the jar also say to refrigerate after opening?  Setting a limit of three days in the refrigerator is absolutely paranoia.  It takes about two days for the herb and spice flavors to really infuse.  I've never actually kept sauce in my refrigerator for less than one week.  A batch of sauce usually lasts me a couple weeks.

[salchaa]

- November,

I am seriously following your posts, taking notes and learned lots of things from you so, thank you very very much for your every effort to share your distinguished knowledge with us. Honestly, I can not hide my adoration to you.

Nowadays, I am trying to find the best pizza sauce for my taste on my American style pizza. I tried your volume measured sauce and it was the best sauce I have tasted ever and almost perfect to me just except a little bitter taste which has caused by probably my small measuring mistakes.
 
One thing I have noticed recently while working on your pizza sauce#2 is the differences between the volume measured and the weight measured one. If I am not wrong, I understand that although you did not call it #3, you had have changed or fine-tuned some ratios clearly at your weight measured sauce recipe compare to volume measured one. Am I right?

Red November Sauce (#2)
 28 oz 11.3 NTSS (1.053 g/cc) tomato puree
 14 g sucrose
   7 g salt
3.5 g herbs & spices (see below)
3.5 g garlic powder
3.5 g onion powder
herbs & spices (dried & crushed)
  earthy component
    4 vu oregano
    2 vu marjoram
    1 vu parsley
  sweet component
    4 vu basil
    2 vu tarragon
    1 vu fennel seed
  savory component
    2 vu rosemary
    2 vu thyme
  spicy component
    1 vu paprika
    1 vu black pepper

1000.000000	tomato puree @ 1.053 g/cc
17.600000	sucrose
8.800000	kosher salt
4.400000	garlic powder
4.400000	onion powder
0.953157	black pepper
0.814342	paprika
0.536131	rosemary
0.532948	oregano
0.481703	basil
0.359930	thyme
0.323250	fennel seed
0.198253	tarragon
0.141065	marjoram
0.059226	parsley

- red.november

This time I want to make your recipe exactly same as in determined weights without any mistake but, it is nearly impossible for me to measure low weights such as 0,059226gr for parsley. So, my plan is to make a batch of everything except salt & sugar (as I guess there is no need microwave them) according to 100000gr of tomato pure. In this way, I will be able to measure even minimum weights (for instance parsley will be nearly 6gr) and keep the respected ratio. Later, when I want to make a sauce, I will just multiple the weight of my tomato pure with weights of sugar, salt in the recipe and my batch of spice and herbs then divide by 100000 to get know how much weight I should use. Do you have a better advice for me? (Sorry if I am wrong in calculation because my math is not good.)

One last question is about using "bay leaves" and very little amount of "cinnamon" in sauce. I am very interested to learn your opinions/experiences on using bay leaves which is commonly used in tomato sauces. Also one of the members on this forum mentioned that cinnamon is commonly used in Canada which can be read in here on topic,1173.msg10441.html#msg10441 (I am not allowed to give direct link)

Generally, I add 1/4tsp of garlic powder, 1/8tsp ginger to improve the yeast activity(I had read that on a website about natural addictives for doughs but I am not sure if it is really working) and add a pinch of cinnamon to create a unique taste in my 800gr pizza dough batch. However, when I tried your sauce on my dough, the final taste of pizza was bothering especially the cinnamon smell did not fit. When I bake breadsticks from my dough I love the flavour and smell of cinnamon. It also suits on a basic pizza sauce (basil, oregano, garlic, onion, pepper vs.) but there is a herb or spice disputing with cinnamon or ginger. So, in respect of your knowledge and using science on the subjects what do you advise, if I want to use cinnamon in my dough and use your sauce recipe and also give a try to bay leaves? Do you think should I leave adding garlic, cinnamon and ginger to my dough? Anyway to take a middle course?

Sorry for if was boring and thanks in advance for spending your precious time to read.

Respectfully yours,
Salchaa  

[November]

I am seriously following your posts, taking notes and learned lots of things from you so, thank you very very much for your every effort to share your distinguished knowledge with us. Honestly, I can not hide my adoration to you.

Thank you.

I tried your volume measured sauce and it was the best sauce I have tasted ever and almost perfect to me just except a little bitter taste which has caused by probably my small measuring mistakes.

Bitter doesn't come from a measuring mistake.  Bitter comes from something that's bitter.  You are probably using an ingredient that's bitter.

One thing I have noticed recently while working on your pizza sauce#2 is the differences between the volume measured and the weight measured one. If I am not wrong, I understand that although you did not call it #3, you had have changed or fine-tuned some ratios clearly at your weight measured sauce recipe compare to volume measured one. Am I right?

No.  There is no intended difference between the volume measured quantities and the weight quantities.  The volumetric method of measurement for seasonings, especially herbs, leads to imprecise quantities.  The accuracy however, is the same for both for the seasonings I work with.  Not too long ago though I formalized a conversion standard for seasonings based on McCormick brand seasonings and their uniform bottle containers.  I haven't posted the conversion standard yet, but I might now since this has come up again.

This time I want to make your recipe exactly same as in determined weights without any mistake but, it is nearly impossible for me to measure low weights such as 0,059226gr for parsley. So, my plan is to make a batch of everything except salt & sugar (as I guess there is no need microwave them) according to 100000gr of tomato pure. In this way, I will be able to measure even minimum weights (for instance parsley will be nearly 6gr) and keep the respected ratio. Later, when I want to make a sauce, I will just multiple the weight of my tomato pure with weights of sugar, salt in the recipe and my batch of spice and herbs then divide by 100000 to get know how much weight I should use. Do you have a better advice for me? (Sorry if I am wrong in calculation because my math is not good.)

In theory that's a good plan.  The problem you will run into is measuring out the portions you need for each batch while having uniform distribution of seasonings.  Some seasonings are going to settle to the bottom of the container because of their density and/or geometry.  If you really want to go that route, I would suggest measuring out herbs separately from spices, and further separate seasonings that do not have similar geometry (i.e. shape, size).  Another possibility is to pre-moisten everything after measuring it out dry, creating a paste, weigh it all again, and divide the portions accordingly for individual batch sizes.  Once you add water the density increases, making it possible to more precisely measure out the amount you want for a batch.  Then just freeze the paste portions in your freezer until you need them.  The beauty behind this method is that not only are you not concerned about cell damage, you would prefer it so that the essential chemicals within the cells are more accessible.  When you're ready, microwave an individual batch portion and add it to your sauce.

One last question is about using "bay leaves" and very little amount of "cinnamon" in sauce. I am very interested to learn your opinions/experiences on using bay leaves which is commonly used in tomato sauces. Also one of the members on this forum mentioned that cinnamon is commonly used in Canada which can be read in here on topic,1173.msg10441.html#msg10441 (I am not allowed to give direct link)

I have never used bay leaves in a pizza sauce, so I have no opinion about it other than I don't like bay leaves in anything but a bouillabaisse or with a seafood dish.  I have however used cinnamon in pizza sauce before.  I use it in quantities no larger than what I would use fennel seed.

Generally, I add 1/4tsp of garlic powder, 1/8tsp ginger to improve the yeast activity(I had read that on a website about natural addictives for doughs but I am not sure if it is really working) and add a pinch of cinnamon to create a unique taste in my 800gr pizza dough batch.

For garlic that's actually the opposite of what happens.  Spices in the alliaceae family such as onion and garlic contain yeast inhibiting chemicals.  Ginger does in fact improve yeast activity.  I just never understood why anyone would want their pizza dough to taste like ginger.  Cinnamon also has antiseptic properties so it will also act like an inhibitor.  I would cut them all out unless with the cinnamon you are trying to make a cinnamon flavored dough.  For me that means dessert pizza, not tomato sauce and cheese pizza.

- red.november

[November]

Another possibility is to pre-moisten everything after measuring it out dry, creating a paste, weigh it all again, and divide the portions accordingly for individual batch sizes.  Once you add water the density increases, making it possible to more precisely measure out the amount you want for a batch.  Then just freeze the paste portions in your freezer until you need them.  The beauty behind this method is that not only are you not concerned about cell damage, you would prefer it so that the essential chemicals within the cells are more accessible.  When you're ready, microwave an individual batch portion and add it to your sauce.

By the way, there's no reason why the seasonings couldn't be pre-moistened before being initially weighed on their own.  It's just easier to keep track of the amount of water you add if you add it all at one time at the end.  This method though could be used to get more precise weight measurements for individual ingredients for a single batch.  The density increase from the water makes it viable to weigh on most consumer digital scales.  Again, you'll have to keep track of the water for each seasoning.

[RichC]

November, I just wanted to post a quick thank you for the sharing the November Red Sauce #2 pizza sauce formulation.  I followed the original recipe exactly and the result was very good.  It was a bit too sweet after the first day out of the refrig, but it did mellow a bit after several more days. 

However, my next herb/spice formulation will have less sugar and more earthy/spicy/savory components.  It is a never ending journey, but your sauce really gave me a head start to what I was looking for.  BTW - for anyone still on the fence about 6in1 tomatoes, jump!  I found them to be excellent right out of the can. I did not drain them for use in your sauce.  I also did not take any measurements, and used the 3.5g measurement for spice/herb blend as my final weight.  This meant that 1VU = 1/8tsp.  Made for some difficult measuring since I only have a kd8000 scale (only measures to 1g accuracy), but a tenth of a gram here and there I figured would not alter the taste profile too significantly. 

Thanks again.

[November]

RichC,

November, I just wanted to post a quick thank you for the sharing the November Red Sauce #2 pizza sauce formulation.  I followed the original recipe exactly and the result was very good.  It was a bit too sweet after the first day out of the refrig, but it did mellow a bit after several more days. 

Thank you.  How much the amount of sugar will affect sweetness depends on how sweet and acidic the tomato is already.  I have another sauce recipe (not posted) that I have used almost as much as #2 that uses 8g of salt and 9g of sugar for the same amount of tomato puree.  You might want to consider those quantities next time.

- red.november

[RichC]

RichC,

Thank you.  How much the amount of sugar will affect sweetness depends on how sweet and acidic the tomato is already.  I have another sauce recipe (not posted) that I have used almost as much as #2 that uses 8g of salt and 9g of sugar for the same amount of tomato puree.  You might want to consider those quantities next time.

- red.november

Well, on Saturday after a trip to the local farmers market to get new spices, I tried your suggestions to lessen the sugar and increase the salt in your #2 sauce.  I did this in conjunction with a newish sauce formulation, found on the Escalon website.  I weighed out a 6in1 can of crushed tomato's, and then put an equal amount (by weight) of Bonta Pizza Sauce with Basil, then used water to thin.  The amount of water was equal to ~ the 28ounce can that the 6in1's came in.  I then doubled the spice/herb mixture, so that 1vu was equal to 1/4 teaspoon.  Heated, the spices to 160dgf, mixed into the tomato's, the refrigerated.

I used the sauce for two 16" pizza's tonight.  My first impression was that on Saturday as I was putting the finished sauce into the refrig, it was significantly thinner.  So, I let the sauce warm a bit in the container on the stovetop while the oven preheated. It did loosen a bit, just not to the point that it was a "sauce".  As for taste, it was not as sweet as when I made the #2 sauce.  Lessening the sugar was certainly helpful.  Although, because the Bonta is a concentrated tomato product with basil, I think it might be best to lessen the sugar content in the next batch even further (maybe 7grams).

The family gave the final review, and they all LOVED IT.  In fact, they told me this was the best pizzas I have made to date.  570g, 16" NY Style pies.  1 with Cheese, (mozzarella, provolone, and a bit of shredded cheddar) on top.  The 2nd pizza the same as the first, with some precooked slicing pepperoni( to avoid grease pooling) on top.  The pies tasted better then anything I could have gone out and purchased locally. 

I just finished making 2 more doughs for Ash Wednesday, maybe I will be able to post some pictures by then.  Thanks again November, Pete, and all who have shared their knowledge to date at this site.  I am learning more and more each day!

[cmamich]

Fantastic information November. 

In regards to the MAE process, you mention a power level of 300 - 420 Watts.   I assume the research specifically mentioned this rate of energy application as the most effective?  In other words, there is no advantage to an even lower power for a longer period of time to achieve the 160 F target temperature.   

To sum up the process you are basically looking for a specific rate of heat input in the material to reach the desired temperature of 160 F. 

Have you indeed noted better flavor extration with the use of alcohol as the solvent?

[freddy_krugerrand]

I know this is an old post but I wanted to see if I was on the right track.  I do not have a digital scale so I merely converted the formula to teaspoons and fractional teaspoons.  Am I pretty close here?  If I am way off could somebody tell me what  I did wrong?

Red November Sauce (#2)
 28 oz   11.3 NTSS (1.053 g/cc) tomato puree
 14 g   sucrose                                                                  10 TSP
   7 g   salt                                                                         5 TSP
3.5 g   herbs & spices (see below)                                        2 1/2 TSP
3.5 g   garlic powder                                                            2 1/2 TSP
3.5 g   onion powder

herbs & spices (dried & crushed)
  earthy component
    4 vu oregano                                                 1/2 TSP
    2 vu marjoram                                               1/4 TSP
    1 vu parsley                                                   1/8 TSP
  sweet component
    4 vu basil                                                     1/2 TSP
    2 vu tarragon                                                1/4 TSP
    1 vu fennel seed                                            1/8 TSP
  savory component
    2 vu rosemary                                              1/4 TSP
    2 vu thyme                                                   1/4 TSP
  spicy component
    1 vu paprika                                              1/8 TSP
    1 vu black pepper                                          1/8 TSP
 
Notes:
   "vu" stands for volume unit since the measurements are expressed in ratios. If measured accurately and the herbs are crushed sufficiently, the total mass should be 3.5g when 1 vu = 1/8 tsp.

[Pete-zza]

freddy,

I'm not sure where you went wrong, but here are the values I came up with:

14 grams sucrose = 0.494 oz; that is approx. 3.5 t
7 grams salt = 0.247 oz; that is approx. 1.25 t. (this is for ordinary table salt)
3.5 grams garlic powder = 0.124 oz; that is approx 1 1/3 t.
3.5 grams onion powder = 0.123 oz; that is approx. 1 1/2 t.

Peter

[freddy_krugerrand]

freddy,

I'm not sure where you went wrong, but here are the values I came up with:

14 grams sucrose = 0.494 oz; that is approx. 3.5 t
7 grams salt = 0.247 oz; that is approx. 1.25 t. (this is for ordinary table salt)
3.5 grams garlic powder = 0.124 oz; that is approx 1 1/3 t.
3.5 grams onion powder = 0.123 oz; that is approx. 1 1/2 t.

Peter

I added up all the spices based on 1vu =1/8 teaspoon and the recipe says you use 3.5 oz of spices.  When you add up all the spices based on 1/8teaspoon it equals 2.5 teaspoons.

Am I correct about the other measurements for the spices?

[Pete-zza]

freddy,

On a vu basis, I get 2 1/2 teaspoons for the "herbs & spices". Ideally, the weight of the herbs & spices should be 3.5 grams. Dried herbs and spices can vary quite considerably, so that may not be the case. I would do the best you can. You shoudn't be so far off as to make the recipe unworkable.

Peter

[freddy_krugerrand]

freddy,

On a vu basis, I get 2 1/2 teaspoons for the "herbs & spices". Ideally, the weight of the herbs & spices should be 3.5 grams. Dried herbs and spices can vary quite considerably, so that may not be the case. I would do the best you can. You shoudn't be so far off as to make the recipe unworkable.

Peter

Thanks for the reply, one more question.   How on earth do you insure that your herbs and spices equal 3.5 grams when there are so many spices and different weights based on density of spices?

When you make this sauce do you weigh every herb and spice on a scale? 

If you measure all your spices using the fractional teaspoon measurement and put them on a scale and they are 4 grams how do you know where you went wrong? 

I guess I just need a little more detail on the scientific side of measuring out the recipe.