Author Topic: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....  (Read 96144 times)

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Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #150 on: February 19, 2009, 11:20:37 AM »
Another possibility is to pre-moisten everything after measuring it out dry, creating a paste, weigh it all again, and divide the portions accordingly for individual batch sizes.  Once you add water the density increases, making it possible to more precisely measure out the amount you want for a batch.  Then just freeze the paste portions in your freezer until you need them.  The beauty behind this method is that not only are you not concerned about cell damage, you would prefer it so that the essential chemicals within the cells are more accessible.  When you're ready, microwave an individual batch portion and add it to your sauce.

By the way, there's no reason why the seasonings couldn't be pre-moistened before being initially weighed on their own.  It's just easier to keep track of the amount of water you add if you add it all at one time at the end.  This method though could be used to get more precise weight measurements for individual ingredients for a single batch.  The density increase from the water makes it viable to weigh on most consumer digital scales.  Again, you'll have to keep track of the water for each seasoning.


Offline RichC

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #151 on: February 20, 2009, 10:48:09 AM »
November, I just wanted to post a quick thank you for the sharing the November Red Sauce #2 pizza sauce formulation.  I followed the original recipe exactly and the result was very good.  It was a bit too sweet after the first day out of the refrig, but it did mellow a bit after several more days. 

However, my next herb/spice formulation will have less sugar and more earthy/spicy/savory components.  It is a never ending journey, but your sauce really gave me a head start to what I was looking for.  BTW - for anyone still on the fence about 6in1 tomatoes, jump!  I found them to be excellent right out of the can. I did not drain them for use in your sauce.  I also did not take any measurements, and used the 3.5g measurement for spice/herb blend as my final weight.  This meant that 1VU = 1/8tsp.  Made for some difficult measuring since I only have a kd8000 scale (only measures to 1g accuracy), but a tenth of a gram here and there I figured would not alter the taste profile too significantly. 

Thanks again.

Offline November

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #152 on: February 20, 2009, 11:51:07 AM »
RichC,

November, I just wanted to post a quick thank you for the sharing the November Red Sauce #2 pizza sauce formulation.  I followed the original recipe exactly and the result was very good.  It was a bit too sweet after the first day out of the refrig, but it did mellow a bit after several more days. 

Thank you.  How much the amount of sugar will affect sweetness depends on how sweet and acidic the tomato is already.  I have another sauce recipe (not posted) that I have used almost as much as #2 that uses 8g of salt and 9g of sugar for the same amount of tomato puree.  You might want to consider those quantities next time.

- red.november

Offline RichC

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #153 on: February 23, 2009, 08:55:05 PM »
RichC,

Thank you.  How much the amount of sugar will affect sweetness depends on how sweet and acidic the tomato is already.  I have another sauce recipe (not posted) that I have used almost as much as #2 that uses 8g of salt and 9g of sugar for the same amount of tomato puree.  You might want to consider those quantities next time.

- red.november

Well, on Saturday after a trip to the local farmers market to get new spices, I tried your suggestions to lessen the sugar and increase the salt in your #2 sauce.  I did this in conjunction with a newish sauce formulation, found on the Escalon website.  I weighed out a 6in1 can of crushed tomato's, and then put an equal amount (by weight) of Bonta Pizza Sauce with Basil, then used water to thin.  The amount of water was equal to ~ the 28ounce can that the 6in1's came in.  I then doubled the spice/herb mixture, so that 1vu was equal to 1/4 teaspoon.  Heated, the spices to 160dgf, mixed into the tomato's, the refrigerated.

I used the sauce for two 16" pizza's tonight.  My first impression was that on Saturday as I was putting the finished sauce into the refrig, it was significantly thinner.  So, I let the sauce warm a bit in the container on the stovetop while the oven preheated. It did loosen a bit, just not to the point that it was a "sauce".  As for taste, it was not as sweet as when I made the #2 sauce.  Lessening the sugar was certainly helpful.  Although, because the Bonta is a concentrated tomato product with basil, I think it might be best to lessen the sugar content in the next batch even further (maybe 7grams).

The family gave the final review, and they all LOVED IT.  In fact, they told me this was the best pizzas I have made to date.  570g, 16" NY Style pies.  1 with Cheese, (mozzarella, provolone, and a bit of shredded cheddar) on top.  The 2nd pizza the same as the first, with some precooked slicing pepperoni( to avoid grease pooling) on top.  The pies tasted better then anything I could have gone out and purchased locally. 

I just finished making 2 more doughs for Ash Wednesday, maybe I will be able to post some pictures by then.  Thanks again November, Pete, and all who have shared their knowledge to date at this site.  I am learning more and more each day!

Offline cmamich

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2009, 11:18:57 AM »
Fantastic information November. 

In regards to the MAE process, you mention a power level of 300 - 420 Watts.   I assume the research specifically mentioned this rate of energy application as the most effective?  In other words, there is no advantage to an even lower power for a longer period of time to achieve the 160 F target temperature.   

To sum up the process you are basically looking for a specific rate of heat input in the material to reach the desired temperature of 160 F. 

Have you indeed noted better flavor extration with the use of alcohol as the solvent?

Offline freddy_krugerrand

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #155 on: February 17, 2010, 12:26:14 AM »
I know this is an old post but I wanted to see if I was on the right track.  I do not have a digital scale so I merely converted the formula to teaspoons and fractional teaspoons.  Am I pretty close here?  If I am way off could somebody tell me what  I did wrong?

Red November Sauce (#2)
 28 oz   11.3 NTSS (1.053 g/cc) tomato puree
 14 g   sucrose                                                                  10 TSP
   7 g   salt                                                                         5 TSP
3.5 g   herbs & spices (see below)                                        2 1/2 TSP
3.5 g   garlic powder                                                            2 1/2 TSP
3.5 g   onion powder

herbs & spices (dried & crushed)
  earthy component
    4 vu oregano                                                 1/2 TSP
    2 vu marjoram                                               1/4 TSP
    1 vu parsley                                                   1/8 TSP
  sweet component
    4 vu basil                                                     1/2 TSP
    2 vu tarragon                                                1/4 TSP
    1 vu fennel seed                                            1/8 TSP
  savory component
    2 vu rosemary                                              1/4 TSP
    2 vu thyme                                                   1/4 TSP
  spicy component
    1 vu paprika                                              1/8 TSP
    1 vu black pepper                                          1/8 TSP
 
Notes:
   "vu" stands for volume unit since the measurements are expressed in ratios. If measured accurately and the herbs are crushed sufficiently, the total mass should be 3.5g when 1 vu = 1/8 tsp.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #156 on: February 17, 2010, 01:23:02 AM »
freddy,

I'm not sure where you went wrong, but here are the values I came up with:

14 grams sucrose = 0.494 oz; that is approx. 3.5 t
7 grams salt = 0.247 oz; that is approx. 1.25 t. (this is for ordinary table salt)
3.5 grams garlic powder = 0.124 oz; that is approx 1 1/3 t.
3.5 grams onion powder = 0.123 oz; that is approx. 1 1/2 t.

Peter

Offline freddy_krugerrand

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #157 on: February 17, 2010, 04:00:07 AM »
freddy,

I'm not sure where you went wrong, but here are the values I came up with:

14 grams sucrose = 0.494 oz; that is approx. 3.5 t
7 grams salt = 0.247 oz; that is approx. 1.25 t. (this is for ordinary table salt)
3.5 grams garlic powder = 0.124 oz; that is approx 1 1/3 t.
3.5 grams onion powder = 0.123 oz; that is approx. 1 1/2 t.

Peter

I added up all the spices based on 1vu =1/8 teaspoon and the recipe says you use 3.5 oz of spices.  When you add up all the spices based on 1/8teaspoon it equals 2.5 teaspoons.

Am I correct about the other measurements for the spices?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #158 on: February 17, 2010, 12:08:52 PM »
freddy,

On a vu basis, I get 2 1/2 teaspoons for the "herbs & spices". Ideally, the weight of the herbs & spices should be 3.5 grams. Dried herbs and spices can vary quite considerably, so that may not be the case. I would do the best you can. You shoudn't be so far off as to make the recipe unworkable.

Peter


Offline freddy_krugerrand

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #159 on: February 17, 2010, 01:03:24 PM »
freddy,

On a vu basis, I get 2 1/2 teaspoons for the "herbs & spices". Ideally, the weight of the herbs & spices should be 3.5 grams. Dried herbs and spices can vary quite considerably, so that may not be the case. I would do the best you can. You shoudn't be so far off as to make the recipe unworkable.

Peter

Thanks for the reply, one more question.   How on earth do you insure that your herbs and spices equal 3.5 grams when there are so many spices and different weights based on density of spices?

When you make this sauce do you weigh every herb and spice on a scale? 

If you measure all your spices using the fractional teaspoon measurement and put them on a scale and they are 4 grams how do you know where you went wrong? 

I guess I just need a little more detail on the scientific side of measuring out the recipe.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 01:05:59 PM by freddy_krugerrand »

Offline randyjohnsonhve

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #160 on: February 18, 2010, 08:26:34 PM »
I posted a comment on uncooked concasse of tomatoes...Cut or test Camparis from Costco as mentioned in my comment...It ties DOPs, beat Muir Glen and stomped on S and W....These were compared on the same pizzas side by side...6 of 6 people agreed with the testing...Less is more, try it you will love it...Randy
"Pizza Evolves...Our Best Pizza Ever is Not Today." It is 'what' is right, not 'who' is right that matters.

Offline Steve973

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #161 on: March 08, 2010, 11:07:41 PM »
To me, cooked sauces end up tasting like pasta sauces.  When you saute onions and garlic in some olive oil and then add tomatoes, you can add any amount of spices, but it will always taste like pasta sauce to me at this point.  To each his/her own, though!
"Right here, right now, from the very beginning, there is only one thing. Constantly clear and unexplained, having never been born and having never died, it cannot be named or described." - Zen Master So Sahn

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #162 on: March 09, 2010, 05:50:34 PM »
To me, cooked sauces end up tasting like pasta sauces.  When you saute onions and garlic in some olive oil and then add tomatoes, you can add any amount of spices, but it will always taste like pasta sauce to me at this point.  To each his/her own, though!
I feel the same way. Simmering it changes the taste of the sauce and at that point, it's fine for pasta, but not pizza.

I prefer the fresher flavor of uncooked crushed tomatoes.



I have a very simple recipe for sauce.

crushed tomatoes.
garlic powder
onion powder
dried basil
italian seasoning
kosher salt
cracked black pepper
pinch of sugar

All seasoning done to taste.
Fuggheddabowdit!

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Offline Morgan

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Re: Red November Pizza Sauce (#2)
« Reply #163 on: February 15, 2013, 04:46:10 AM »
I decided to finally release my #2 pizza sauce into the wild, and figured I would put it here since the instructions for handling the herbs and spices in the microwave are already in this thread.  First the ingredients, then a few notes, then a few instructions, and finally a few more notes.

Red November Sauce (#2)
 28 oz   11.3 NTSS (1.053 g/cc) tomato puree
 14 g   sucrose
   7 g   salt
3.5 g   herbs & spices (see below)
3.5 g   garlic powder
3.5 g   onion powder

herbs & spices (dried & crushed)
  earthy component
    4 vu oregano
    2 vu marjoram
    1 vu parsley
  sweet component
    4 vu basil
    2 vu tarragon
    1 vu fennel seed
  savory component
    2 vu rosemary
    2 vu thyme
  spicy component
    1 vu paprika
    1 vu black pepper

Notes:
   "vu" stands for volume unit since the measurements are expressed in ratios. If measured accurately and the herbs are crushed sufficiently, the total mass should be 3.5g when 1 vu = 1/8 tsp.
Instructions:
   Add the sucrose (table sugar) and salt to the sauce first and whisk.  In a separate sealable container measure and mix all the herbs and spices as well as the garlic and onion powders.  I recommend choosing a volume unit that allows you to match your quantity of puree exactly.  Trying to divide the herbs and spices after mixing will lead to uneven distribution.  Seal the container and shake well.  Pour the mixture into a microwaveable container such as a small Pyrex measuring cup.  Add just enough filtered water to the mixture so that it is completely moist, but not suspended in water.  Follow the microwave instructions in my two previous posts.  Add the herbs and spices to the puree.  Whisk and place in refrigerator to chill for at least 6 hours before using.
Notes:
   As you might be able to tell, the herbs and spices are deliberately matched according to a specific flavor profile.  There's a lot I could say about the reasoning behind the seasoning, as it took a long time to investigate each herb and spice in order to give it a profile component value, but it all still comes down to how each person thinks it tastes.  The more experienced on this site should already know this, but be sure the puree has no added substances (e.g. salt, citric acid, seasonings) if you buy it canned.  I hope I covered everything.

- red.november

Do i even dare to try this with crushed and drained tomatoes ?

Offline norma427

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Re: Red November Pizza Sauce (#2)
« Reply #164 on: February 15, 2013, 08:01:23 AM »
Do i even dare to try this with crushed and drained tomatoes ?

Morgan,

If you are interested you might look at this thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17013.0.html and especially Peterís post at Reply 16 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17013.msg165705.html#msg165705

Norma

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #165 on: February 15, 2013, 09:07:21 AM »
Here are a couple things that I learned about sauce.
1) You know how good the kitchen smells when you're cooking a sauce? Those aromatics are being driven off from your sauce, never to be smelled again. Moral of the story, don't cook the sauce since it will be cooked all it needs to be on the pie during the normal baking of the pizza, and it will actually provide a better flavor. From a commercial perspective cooking the sauce presents some problems too. There is the 4-hour food safety rule which basically states that a product cannot be allowed to be at a temperature that will support microbial growth (lower than 140F and greater than 40F)) for an accumulated time not to exceed 4-hours. When cooking a sauce it MUST be heated to a temperature of 160F or more, then it must be cooled, and the time it spends in that critical temperature range (40F to 140F) erodes the 4-hour rule time period.
2) Oil of any kind in the sauce helps to entrap the flavors released during baking of the pizza, potentially resulting in a better flavor profile. Have you ever eaten a piece of cake taken home from a party where there were smokers? On the following day the cake and icing would have a very decided smoke flavor. This is why the butter container in the fridge always has a cover on it. It it isn't covered the butter will pick up and aroma in the fridge. No, sauce doesn't need the added oil, but if your sauce is too oily I'm betting that you have added too much oil. Many sauce formulas contain at lease some oil for the reason cited above, but in my experience the amount of oil seldom exceeds 2 to 3% of the total sauce weight.
3) For use on pasta, always precook the sauce since it won't get cooked upon application to the pasta, unless you're making lasagna, then at least for me, I'm back to using uncooked sauce.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #166 on: February 15, 2013, 11:42:57 AM »

2) Oil of any kind in the sauce helps to entrap the flavors released during baking of the pizza, potentially resulting in a better flavor profile.

Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for posting about a little oil in the sauce is a good thing and helps to entrap the flavors released during baking.  At least I have been doing something right for the sauce for my NY style pizzas.  I do microwave fresh crushed garlic with herbs and a little red pepper flakes in olive oil and add a little to my sauce and then let it sit overnight.  I donít recall ever reading before that a little oil in the sauce actually helps during the bake.  You sure know about everything related to pizza.   :chef:

Norma


Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #167 on: February 15, 2013, 01:23:19 PM »
Pizzamaking.com is like a gold mine. I've been reading this forum for many years but somehow I'd never read this thread before, and I'd never seen November's post releasing his Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) "into the wild", which he did way back in October of 2006! The thread had been dormant for about three years when Morgan posted a question, thus leading me to read the whole thread.  And what a great thread it is!  I learned about Microwave-Assisted Extraction (MAE), an industrial engineering technique for releasing flavors from herbs and spices, I became introduced to November, a truly brilliant fellow, who had many interesting things to say way back in 2006 (and probably still does, though not much here on pizzamaking.com), and there was even a bit of drama, when a not-so-friendly spat developed between November and SD Girl involving the issue of how long to keep spices in the pantry.  Quite a ride. So thank you Morgan for posting on this thread. I think I will give November's Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) a whirl. 

I wonder what Red November Pizza Sauce (#1) is like? 

All hail this great forum!

TinRoof

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #168 on: February 15, 2013, 02:41:16 PM »
Norma;
After 45+ years of eating, sleeping, breathing, researching, and consulting on pizza, a little has to eventually rub off.
My job has always been fairly easy since I've got all the tools and toys one could wish for at my disposal for making, developing, and researching pizza. You and all of the other folks here are the truly innovative and creative individuals as you are all researching the different aspects of pizza, developing different styles of pizza, reverse engineering pizzas, and just plain making great pizzas all without the big and expensive toys that we work with. Now, that's a challenge. It is also interesting to note that there is a strong interest displayed here to make what we like to call "artisan" pizzas, be it in a home oven, or a wood fired oven out in the back yard. For what it's worth, this closely mimics some of the direction that pizza industry is now going in as we are beginning to see more artisan type pizza offerings in the frozen food cases, and pizzerias, in general, are asking more questions about how to make them. So the knowledge that I'm gaining here helps to shorten my learning curve too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Morgan

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #169 on: February 15, 2013, 04:50:57 PM »
Pizzamaking.com is like a gold mine. I've been reading this forum for many years but somehow I'd never read this thread before, and I'd never seen November's post releasing his Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) "into the wild", which he did way back in October of 2006! The thread had been dormant for about three years when Morgan posted a question, thus leading me to read the whole thread.  And what a great thread it is!  I learned about Microwave-Assisted Extraction (MAE), an industrial engineering technique for releasing flavors from herbs and spices, I became introduced to November, a truly brilliant fellow, who had many interesting things to say way back in 2006 (and probably still does, though not much here on pizzamaking.com), and there was even a bit of drama, when a not-so-friendly spat developed between November and SD Girl involving the issue of how long to keep spices in the pantry.  Quite a ride. So thank you Morgan for posting on this thread. I think I will give November's Red November Pizza Sauce (#2) a whirl.  

I wonder what Red November Pizza Sauce (#1) is like?  

All hail this great forum!

TinRoof

This! Have to take this sauce for a spin and see how it goes. I'm not too picky about the sauce, just basic organic Italian crushed tomatoes with salt, sugar, herbs and black pepper. Sometimes i add olive oil, balsamic vinegar and lemon juice. I am skeptic about this sauce, but I'm going to test it anyway, it is different than i ever tried for sure so there must be totally different taste to it. I think i use more spices normally, but who knows maybe this is the best sauce there is.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 04:53:56 PM by Morgan »

Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #170 on: February 15, 2013, 06:02:35 PM »
Norma;
After 45+ years of eating, sleeping, breathing, researching, and consulting on pizza, a little has to eventually rub off.
My job has always been fairly easy since I've got all the tools and toys one could wish for at my disposal for making, developing, and researching pizza. You and all of the other folks here are the truly innovative and creative individuals as you are all researching the different aspects of pizza, developing different styles of pizza, reverse engineering pizzas, and just plain making great pizzas all without the big and expensive toys that we work with. Now, that's a challenge. It is also interesting to note that there is a strong interest displayed here to make what we like to call "artisan" pizzas, be it in a home oven, or a wood fired oven out in the back yard. For what it's worth, this closely mimics some of the direction that pizza industry is now going in as we are beginning to see more artisan type pizza offerings in the frozen food cases, and pizzerias, in general, are asking more questions about how to make them. So the knowledge that I'm gaining here helps to shorten my learning curve too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Forty-five years is a long time to be eating, sleeping, breathing, researching and consulting on pizza.  I can understand how you know so much, but I donít think I could keep it all in my brain like you do. 

I agree this forum is a great place to learn about anything related to pizza, but I have also learned a lot from you.  Thanks!

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #171 on: February 15, 2013, 06:14:55 PM »
This! Have to take this sauce for a spin and see how it goes. I'm not too picky about the sauce, just basic organic Italian crushed tomatoes with salt, sugar, herbs and black pepper. Sometimes i add olive oil, balsamic vinegar and lemon juice. I am skeptic about this sauce, but I'm going to test it anyway, it is different than i ever tried for sure so there must be totally different taste to it. I think i use more spices normally, but who knows maybe this is the best sauce there is.
Less!....is often times more than enough.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Morgan

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #172 on: February 15, 2013, 06:23:27 PM »
Less!....is often times more than enough.

There might be part of the truth here, i will make it next week and post pics of the sauce and pie here. I'm not going crazy with the measures so digital scale, spoon and eye is my way. Same time have to test 00 flours with sugar and oil(for browning), maybe one patch of flour mix too.

Offline norma427

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #173 on: February 15, 2013, 06:50:15 PM »
This! Have to take this sauce for a spin and see how it goes. I'm not too picky about the sauce, just basic organic Italian crushed tomatoes with salt, sugar, herbs and black pepper. Sometimes i add olive oil, balsamic vinegar and lemon juice. I am skeptic about this sauce, but I'm going to test it anyway, it is different than i ever tried for sure so there must be totally different taste to it. I think i use more spices normally, but who knows maybe this is the best sauce there is.

Morgan,

In my opinion November's sauce is very good.  I am just too lazy sometimes to make it.  Steve (Ev) does make and use it for all of his NY style pizzas and the sauce tastes fantastic to me on his pies.  It is a lot of ingredients, but November is very smart and knew what he was doing when creating his sauce.  November's intelligence is way above mine.

Norma

Offline Morgan

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Re: Cooked vs Uncooked pizza sauce....
« Reply #174 on: February 16, 2013, 03:11:44 AM »
November's intelligence is way above mine.

Norma

There is definitely some molecule gastronomy or secret mathematic formulas used when this sauce has developed :pizza:


 

pizzapan