Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 123825 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #950 on: May 17, 2015, 06:16:43 PM »
This is going to be a new baking method for me:

I've got the 1/2" steel on the bottom rack and my old smaller pizza stone on the second rack from the top.  I'm going to do a 550F BAKE (as opposed to my normal 550 convect).  I'm going to launch onto the hot steel on the bottom and then move it to the top stone after it sets up and starts to brown.
I always have the issue of the bottom finishing way before the top.  I've always had to use the broiler to finish. 

I'm hoping using bake and the "two stone" method will even out my top and bottom time issues.  We'll see

ps.  If I DO need the broiler the pizza will already be up underneath it (old habits die hard).  :-D

Quick tip: Make sure to rotate the pie a 180 when moving it to the top. And keep an eye on the bottom since you're using the BAKE feature and not convection.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #951 on: May 17, 2015, 06:50:52 PM »
Putting one together for tomorrow evening.

Same formula, same process.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #952 on: May 18, 2015, 12:12:39 PM »
Mike,

From what was previously reported, you were using a Thorley stone (see Replies 635 and 636 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg147252#msg147252). Are you still using the same stone (and also a Thorley stone for the second stone) and the same GE oven that you were using at the time of the aforementioned posts? I recall that you were high on the Thorley stone (Reply 844 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg204882#msg204882). Do you still feel the same way or did the fact that you could juice up your oven play a more significant role in the results you achieved? Or maybe it was a combination of both factors?

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #953 on: May 18, 2015, 01:55:57 PM »
Mike,

From what was previously reported, you were using a Thorley stone (see Replies 635 and 636 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg147252#msg147252). Are you still using the same stone (and also a Thorley stone for the second stone) and the same GE oven that you were using at the time of the aforementioned posts? I recall that you were high on the Thorley stone (Reply 844 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg204882#msg204882). Do you still feel the same way or did the fact that you could juice up your oven play a more significant role in the results you achieved? Or maybe it was a combination of both factors?

Peter

Peter,

Here's the oven set-up.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg380538#msg380538

The top stone is still the same Thorley kiln shelf I got from sfceramics.com awhile back. The bottom stone is a custom-cut kiln shelf from californiapizzastones.com in Santa Rosa.

The oven has been replaced since my original generic GE crapped out on me. This is the same model but it has a self-cleaning feature which my original didn't have. However, this oven gets just as hot as my old. There are no modifications, hacks or has otherwise been tempered with.

It's all stock.

I do an hour preheat at 550F, with an additional 35F calibrated up so it's actually 585F on the preheat. And that's pretty much it. I start baking on the bottom stone for about 3 mins then move it up and finish it for another 4-5 mins give or take a few. I also cover the vent with a cast iron lid from my Lodge cooker during the preheat.

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #954 on: May 18, 2015, 02:12:45 PM »
Degassed, divided and balled. Anxious to see the outcome tonight.
Mike

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #955 on: May 18, 2015, 02:23:41 PM »
Mike,

Thank you for the explanation on your oven setup and methods. I think we now have everything you have been doing, and all in one place ;D.

The reason I posed my questions the way I did is because I wanted to see whether the high oven temperature was as critical as the other factors. For example, Glutenboy once had an old oven that could get up close to 600 degrees F, if I recall correctly. He did not use multiple stones but his pizzas were always terrific. Similarly, member John Fazzari has an oven that he can get up to above average temperatures, and his pizzas always turn out great. He does not use two stones either. These examples raise the question as to whether others whose ovens cannot achieve the same high oven temperatures can get the same results following the same dough recipes. In your case, I wondered whether you would get the same results doing everything you have been doing but at a lower oven temperature, say, around 500 degrees F. Or is the high oven temperature you have been using critical to your results?

Peter

Offline jvp123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #956 on: May 18, 2015, 02:37:49 PM »
Mike,

Thank you for the explanation on your oven setup and methods. I think we now have everything you have been doing, and all in one place ;D.

The reason I posed my questions the way I did is because I wanted to see whether the high oven temperature was as critical as the other factors. For example, Glutenboy once had an old oven that could get up close to 600 degrees F, if I recall correctly. He did not use multiple stones but his pizzas were always terrific. Similarly, member John Fazzari has an oven that he can get up to above average temperatures, and his pizzas always turn out great. He does not use two stones either. These examples raise the question as to whether others whose ovens cannot achieve the same high oven temperatures can get the same results following the same dough recipes. In your case, I wondered whether you would get the same results doing everything you have been doing but at a lower oven temperature, say, around 500 degrees F. Or is the high oven temperature you have been using critical to your results?

Peter

Peter

Peter,
I'm starting to feel that the "sweet spot" in a baker's methodology is arrived upon via a combination of a multitude of factors (ingredients, mixing technique, fermentation type, etc) and that those factors as a whole result in that baker's signature finished product.  I think if the baker switches even one thing up (in this case the bake temperature) I suspect the results will not be exactly the same.
Jeff
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 02:41:08 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #957 on: May 18, 2015, 02:38:54 PM »
Peter,

I have two current formulas I use, one is the NY-style described above and the other I sometimes run is more of a rustic pizza, which allows me to go higher in temp, usually 625F. But it has a higher hydration,  a lower sugar amount, as well as a lower DMP amount.

I feel that with a home oven, temp management is critical and I always have an IR handy to check on them. The upper stone normally tops out at about 500F which allows me to bake it out and get the coloration I"m looking for. It also crisps up the bottom quite nicely.

Now, if I wanted to go to let's say 700F, which I tried before and failed miserably, I would need a complete new dough.  ;D
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #958 on: May 18, 2015, 02:41:25 PM »
Peter

Peter,
I'm starting to feel that the "sweet spot" in a baker's methodology is arrived upon via a combination of a multitude of factors (ingredients, mixing technique, fermentation type, etc) and that those factors as a whole result in that baker's signature finished product.  I think if the baker switches even one thing up (in the case the bake temperature) I suspect the results will not be exactly the same.
Jeff

Jeff,

You nailed it. Even if one would explain a certain dough formula, workflow, temps and baking procedure, times and what not in painstaking detail, the outcome would still be different if used by another person.

There are too many little intricacies involved to get the same result with different mixers, ovens, etc.
Mike

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Offline jvp123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #959 on: May 18, 2015, 02:42:55 PM »
Jeff,

You nailed it. Even if one would explain a certain dough formula, workflow, temps and baking procedure, times and what not in painstaking detail, the outcome would still be different if used by another person.

There are too many little intricacies involved to get the same result with different mixers, ovens, etc.

Well we know thats true don't we  :-D.
Jeff

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #960 on: May 18, 2015, 02:44:43 PM »
Well we know thats true don't we  :-D.

Completely.  ;D
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #961 on: May 18, 2015, 03:03:15 PM »
Mike and Jeff,

I agree with both of you. I have written many posts in painstaking detail so as to increase the likelihood of success by others. Sometimes the detailed roadmap works but other times it doesn't. And I realize that there can be many variations in the hands of others who try to replicate my results. But my question to Mike was whether his results would be as good if he were to do everything the same but use a lower oven temperature of around 500 degrees F. The answer to that question would tell us if a high oven temperature is a critical factor in achieving the noteworthy results that Mike has achieved.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #962 on: May 18, 2015, 03:34:05 PM »
Mike and Jeff,

I agree with both of you. I have written many posts in painstaking detail so as to increase the likelihood of success by others. Sometimes the detailed roadmap works but other times it doesn't. And I realize that there can be many variations in the hands of others who try to replicate my results. But my question to Mike was whether his results would be as good if he were to do everything the same but use a lower oven temperature of around 500 degrees F. The answer to that question would tell us if a high oven temperature is a critical factor in achieving the noteworthy results that Mike has achieved.

Peter

Peter,

I'll do that test! Same formula, lower temp.

I can't do it with the current batch I have since all four dough balls already go to friends & family. I'll get another one going probably mid-week but latest by next weekend.
Mike

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Offline jvp123

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #963 on: May 18, 2015, 04:04:54 PM »
Mike and Jeff,

I agree with both of you. I have written many posts in painstaking detail so as to increase the likelihood of success by others. Sometimes the detailed roadmap works but other times it doesn't. And I realize that there can be many variations in the hands of others who try to replicate my results. But my question to Mike was whether his results would be as good if he were to do everything the same but use a lower oven temperature of around 500 degrees F. The answer to that question would tell us if a high oven temperature is a critical factor in achieving the noteworthy results that Mike has achieved.

Peter

I agree Peter.  l look forward to the results.  In my journey to make NY style pizza I've noticed that as I lower temperature my crust is dryer and crisper/sturdier with less flop towards the middle (which isn't a bad quality to my taste buds).  What I have sought to do is to maintain that exterior quality with a tender inside with nice oven spring via higher heat.  That has been my personal battle with oven temperature/time as it relates to the crumb. 

Again, we'll see what Mike discovers today.
Jeff

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #964 on: May 19, 2015, 12:01:48 AM »
Tonight's outcome.

Temp of bottom and top stone.

And the pies.

Mike

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #965 on: May 20, 2015, 07:33:46 PM »
No pics but I've made this pie two straight nights now using the same stone setup and it's been awesome.  I didn't have any sugar when making the dough so I had to use my IDY.  My dough needed a full 48hr CF to be ready to go. 

Mike:

I don't know how you can get an 8:30 min bake on your pies because my bottom crust can't handle more than 5:30.  Regardless this is an excellent recipe.

Nate
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #966 on: May 20, 2015, 07:52:14 PM »
No pics but I've made this pie two straight nights now using the same stone setup and it's been awesome.  I didn't have any sugar when making the dough so I had to use my IDY.  My dough needed a full 48hr CF to be ready to go. 

Mike:

I don't know how you can get an 8:30 min bake on your pies because my bottom crust can't handle more than 5:30.  Regardless this is an excellent recipe.

Nate

Nate,

Goes to show that every oven is different. My times vary on occasion, too, especially if I don't pay enough attention.  ::)

However, I'm stoked you liked and enjoyed the outcome. Next time post some pics


PS: Nate, you don't need any sugar to activate (hydrate) the ADY. Just use water and whisk the ADY for a few secs until no granules float on the top.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 07:56:16 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #967 on: May 20, 2015, 07:53:08 PM »
Mike:

Maybe it is buried in the thread somewhere - can you tell me if you are still using TG's flour?  Or, were the pies made with something else?

Thx

Nate: What flour did you use?

Thx
Mitch

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #968 on: May 20, 2015, 07:54:11 PM »
Mike:

Maybe it is buried in the thread somewhere - can you tell me if you are still using TG's flour?  Or, were the pies made with something else?

Thx

Nate: What flour did you use?

Thx

Mitch,

I have to get more of TG flour. Currently I'm using the Power flour from Pendleton. It's good stuff.
Mike

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #969 on: May 20, 2015, 08:04:08 PM »
I made a few pies with the flour and had a bit of a difficult time.  Too elastic.  I used a poolish and my usual mixing routine.  Perhaps, given the high protein % and other things, I need to cut my mixing time back and use ice water like in his recipe (a hand in hand thing - the flour and the process).

I will try again.
Mitch

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #970 on: May 20, 2015, 08:15:09 PM »
I made a few pies with the flour and had a bit of a difficult time.  Too elastic.  I used a poolish and my usual mixing routine.  Perhaps, given the high protein % and other things, I need to cut my mixing time back and use ice water like in his recipe (a hand in hand thing - the flour and the process).

I will try again.

It's very easy to over-mix this flour with an approx. 14% protein content. I'll always shoot for the lowest possible mixing time and let the dough do it's thing during fermentation.

I also go by how the dough looks and feels after 4-5 mins of mixing.
Mike

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #971 on: May 21, 2015, 02:02:26 AM »
Nate,

Goes to show that every oven is different. My times vary on occasion, too, especially if I don't pay enough attention.  ::)

However, I'm stoked you liked and enjoyed the outcome. Next time post some pics


PS: Nate, you don't need any sugar to activate (hydrate) the ADY. Just use water and whisk the ADY for a few secs until no granules float on the top.

Interesting about the sugar.  I thought it was needed to activate the ADY.
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #972 on: May 21, 2015, 02:15:16 AM »
Interesting about the sugar.  I thought it was needed to activate the ADY.

No. It's not needed at all.

There's no harm in adding a small amount of sugar to the mix but be advised that it will act as a kickstarter for the ADY, which in turn will speed up fermentation.

Keep the water temp between 95-105F (my preferred temps), whisk it and let it sit for 10 mins.

I combine the sugar with the flour and DMP in a bowl and that's it.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #973 on: May 25, 2015, 10:15:53 PM »
Peter,

just a quick update....

I wasn't able to do the lower temp test this weekend due to the fact that I am getting a new KA Pro 600 6qt mixer and sold my old one already.

It's just a postponement.
Mike

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