Author Topic: Bad rise = Angry Tony  (Read 1628 times)

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Offline anthony2173

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Bad rise = Angry Tony
« on: September 22, 2006, 11:39:00 AM »
I have been making pizza for several years but just recently became somewhat obsessed with developing the "perfect" pie.

I stumbled across Jeff's website and follow his directions verbatim using the autolyse techniques, weighing ingredients with a digital scale and making good poolish (biga in my family) that sat overnight in the fridge and for two hours out of the fridge prior to starting the dough.

The first time I used this recipe it was awesome (dough spent 3 days in the fridge prior to use)... nothing but rave reviews.

Last night I used a different batch which was made with the same direction and it did rise like the first. The dough had great flavor but the texture was poor.

I cooked both batches in my big green egg which I propane fire using a 55,000 BTU burner. The cooking temp on both batches was around 650 degrees.

I was cooking at the 750 - 800 mark but found a nice big crack in the side of the egg which I can only attribute to the propane and hellish temperatures I have been cooking at. New oven is on order, given the mild winters of California I should have it ready by spring.

So, I'm done rambling and can get on to my question:

What would cause the dough to not rise as before... would using too much bench flour cause this?
If I spent this much time researching my investments I would be retired by now.


Offline tonymark

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Re: Bad rise = Angry Tony
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2006, 12:27:47 PM »
I cooked both batches in my big green egg which I propane fire using a 55,000 BTU burner. The cooking temp on both batches was around 650 degrees.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH ?

Propane burner in the egg?  Please give all the details.  I mean ALL the details.

As for the crack ...
They probably will replace your BGE as long as you don't tell them what you are doing.  I imagine propane burner use is not in the guarantee.  They told hassled me when I exchanged mine.  Some line like "You put in too much charcoal and fire was shooting out the top."  Whatever happens don't post what you did/do on the BGE forum.  The corporate folks actually read it.

TM
Making Pizza is not cooking, it is Performance Art!

Offline varasano

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Re: Bad rise = Angry Tony
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2006, 12:36:04 PM »
Hey Tony,

It takes practice. You are doing good.

When you say "it didn't rise" what I'm guessing you meant was, "I waited as long as it took to rise last time and then baked it even though it didn't rise as much as before"

If that is the case then you simply should have waited. You can speed it up a bit by putting it in an 85-90F environment (although I think 75 is ideal, given the option).  I don't have a ton of time, so I'm pasting in the answer I gave recently to an email I got. Hope this helps:

Hey Ed,

I'm glad you liked it.

It takes a while to get a feel for how your culture will react. First, I'm
assuming that the culture was good and bubbly before you used it. If not, that
could be a problem. But even so, it should have worked out. They key test is the
smell. If it smelled good, then the yeast is in there and ready to rise.

When the dough comes out of the fridge, it has not risen much at all. But it
really varies. It could be 20%, it could be 50%. It could even vary by dough,
depending on different temps within your fridge. If you stack the dough in
containers when you put it in the fridge, they won't cool at the same pace, and
that can carry over after 3 days to one being risen and another not.

In any case, once you take it out, you have to wait for it to finish risiing. It
could be a half hour. It could be 5 hours.  It depends on how it did in the
fridge. Once you get to know the culture you will be able to adjust. I'm making
pies tonight at 8 for friends. I took a look at the dough around noon and I made
an assessment. I guessed, from looking at it's progress that it needed 3+ hours
to finish rising. So I took it out of the fridge at 5:30.  If I took it out at 5
and I was wrong and it was perfect in 2 hours, I'd be screwed - by 8 it would be
overrisen. So I took it out late. If it gets to 7PM and it looks like it's not
moving, I'll toss it in the upper oven which I'll warm to like 90F.  That will
speed it up. It may even be that one dough gets more warming than another, etc.

So the bottom line is simply that you should have waited until it did rise
enough. You are kind of on it's time right now, until you figure out how it
works and then you will more in control.

An extra day in the fridge is good for flavor, but the basic rise process is the
same. You might shave 20% off the rise time by waiting a day, but it will still
vary and need manual adjustment.

FYI, pizzzamaking.com has blogs which talk about the green egg gasket.

Ciao,

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Falis" <falis@verizon.net>
To: <varasano@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 5:03 PM
Subject: pizza rise


> Hi Jeff,
>
> First let me say that your web page has been an inspiration to my wife and me.
> Then a question.
>
> We followed the procedure you give but came out with pies with a tough crust
> and very little rise.  We're using the sourdo.com Italian island culture.  We
> saw very little rise in the refrigerator after making thet dough balls (1-1/2
> days), and the same during the ~2 hours we had the dough balls out before
> spreading and prepping.  Note that the dough was very nice and elastic and
> tasty, though.
>
> We started with a liquid culture (Ed Wood formula) right out of the
> refrigerator.  Is the problem likely that we should have gone through some
> kind of activation steps on it before mixing the dough?  Or that the dough
> should have refrigerated for 3 days or so?  Or is there something special to
> consider when using such a small amount of culture (5%?).  We did not add any
> commercial yeast.
>
> We also did not have a really hot oven, so that could be a compromising factor
> (had my big green egg up to 900, but couldn't use it because the gasket was
> melting and a white powder was everywhere - but that's another story).
>
> Anyway, your thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Ed
>

Offline anthony2173

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Re: Bad rise = Angry Tony
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2006, 09:47:27 PM »
The problem wasn't with the dough rising prior to shaping and cooking but with the way it rose in the oven. After baking I didn't get the airy texture that I did with the prior dough.

Out of the oven the crust was dense with smallish air pockets. It had great flavor but there was a definite problem with texture and aesthetics,

As for the egg... it's pretty simple, pirate the 55K burner from a turkey fryer and run the gas inlet out of the metal door used for ash removal. I then bought a piece of diamond mesh steel and cut it round to fit the top of the egg. The stone sits on top of the steel and is heated from the bottom.

So far it has worked great. I have been able to get it pretty darn hot and have made some really good pizza.

I wouldn't recommend letting the kids play around it while you are cooking but it's been safe so far. One word of caution, if the flame blows out give it a little time before relighting... unless of course you aren't all that attached to your arm hair. Yeah, um... a friend of mine told me about  that :-[
If I spent this much time researching my investments I would be retired by now.

Offline varasano

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Re: Bad rise = Angry Tony
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2006, 10:26:33 PM »
> What would cause the dough to not rise as before... would using too much bench flour cause this?

It's not the bench flour, but it could be too much handling. You didn't give many specifics of what was different between the 2 batches, so I'll just cover th basics.

These give it more spring and bigger bubbles:
- using 00 flour or mixing in some 00 flour. (Bread Flour can be made to have bigger bubbles by adding some 00)
- Wetter dough. 62% or more.
- Right amount of rise - 40-50% increase in volume (regardless of the time)
- Proper autolyse and kneading
- high heat
- Minimal handling during stretch

Offline anthony2173

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Re: Bad rise = Angry Tony
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2006, 03:21:04 AM »
Thanks for the advice.

I did work the heck out of the dough last night. It was pulling back and instead of letting it rest I forced it.

I made a another pie tonight with the remaining dough and it came out beautiful.
If I spent this much time researching my investments I would be retired by now.

Offline EdF

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Re: Bad rise = Angry Tony
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 04:27:33 PM »
Hi guys,

An update.  We let the dough rise ;-)

Then I ran the egg up to about 850.  The result was better than anything we've made before.  I did burn the bottom on a couple (slightly), but I have a handle, I think, on how to address that issue.  Left the gasket off the egg, and it doesn't interfere with slow cook temperature control.  So, I'm pretty optimistic going forward.

- Ed