Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 173562 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline android

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
  • Age: 35
  • Location: ames, iowa
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #260 on: September 13, 2010, 06:47:58 PM »
sorry if i missed it, but is the preferred fermentation method to just let it rise in the pan for 3-4 hours, or do you let it rise once in a bowl, then transfer to a pan and let rise again? thanks.


Offline PizzaHog

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 542
  • Location: Clinton Township, MI
  • Heat matters!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #261 on: September 13, 2010, 07:54:28 PM »
sorry if i missed it, but is the preferred fermentation method to just let it rise in the pan for 3-4 hours, or do you let it rise once in a bowl, then transfer to a pan and let rise again? thanks.
Hey Android
Just one rise in the pan for me.

Offline android

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
  • Age: 35
  • Location: ames, iowa
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #262 on: September 13, 2010, 09:16:38 PM »
awesome, thanks. can't wait to give this one a try!

Offline Grilled Pizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 38
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #263 on: September 15, 2010, 08:02:06 PM »
In the pan only.  I tried the bowl and then put it in the pan.  Does not work.

Offline android

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
  • Age: 35
  • Location: ames, iowa
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #264 on: September 19, 2010, 11:31:48 AM »
finally tried this last night. had to scale it down to an 8x10 as that's all i have in the house at the moment. it's a creuset enamelware pan, so it doesn't come out quite like it would with metal, but was still very tasty. i substituted all of the water with a combo of english mild ale and oatmeal stout, it was not super noticeable in the final pizza, but was definitely present. i put what i would consider a copious amount of EVOO in the pan and spread it out very well but still get the crust sticking to the pan in certain spots. any tips on a lube that releases better? thanks for all the hard work and research in this thread, it turns out a very tasty pizza.

Offline steel_baker

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 185
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Southwestern Colorado
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #265 on: September 19, 2010, 11:49:13 AM »
Peanut oil, much higher smoke point than EVOO to handle the higher temps of baking pizza.

steel_baker
steel_baker  :chef:

Offline PizzaHog

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 542
  • Location: Clinton Township, MI
  • Heat matters!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #266 on: September 19, 2010, 02:26:41 PM »
Quote
any tips on a lube that releases better?
Hey Android
I've tried butter, OO, shortening, and "veg" oil (can't recall which) and all worked well enough.  Never tried peanut oil but sounds tasty too.
The lube part of the equation to prevent any sticking for me was to season the living daylights out of my steel pan.  Now I only use about a teaspoon or so of OO, get a crisp golden brown fry, and the pie slides right out with no sticking, except for the carmelized cheese on the edges which now releases easily just running a plastic spatula around the perimeter.  This seasoned pan is identical to the one steel baker posted earlier in this thread and works way better than my high dollar non stick.
If you cannot locate such a black/blue steel pan and would like some, no problem picking some up and shipping to you.  Just shoot me a PM.
I liked beer when I tried it too but think I prefer to drink it along with the pie more.

Offline steel_baker

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 185
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Southwestern Colorado
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #267 on: September 19, 2010, 02:42:05 PM »
Amazon.com sells the Paderno World Cuisine blue steel baking sheets (they're 1-1/8" high) in various sizes. Oil them up and they work extremely well. I actually prefer the peanut oil flavor over the OO flavor with Pizza. PO has a very light flavor and the flavor doesn't change with high heat like OO can sometimes. That's the difference that the higher smoke point makes.

But as always, YMMV.

steel_baker
steel_baker  :chef:

Offline PizzaHog

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 542
  • Location: Clinton Township, MI
  • Heat matters!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #268 on: September 19, 2010, 02:57:15 PM »
Quote
I actually prefer the peanut oil flavor over the OO flavor with Pizza. PO has a very light flavor and the flavor doesn't change with high heat like OO can sometimes.
That's what I was thinking SB as I do like the flavor of peanut oil and will have to give that a try.  Lately I have been using pomace oil which is super mild to flavorless depending on brand.

Offline VICIII

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #269 on: September 29, 2010, 10:09:11 AM »
Just got it Done...  It matches close enough for me..

Can't figure out how to post a pic??

Well I guess I did...


Offline KingMob4313

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #270 on: October 02, 2010, 05:30:17 PM »
Finally the basics are all together so here is my recipe for Detroit Style Pie.
I attempted to incorporate as much of the info contained in this thread as possible.  Sort of trying to imagine how one of these pizzerias would pump out the dough and pies every day.  Whenever in doubt I referred to the KISS theory.  I also tried to use easily findable ingredients for everyone's convenience.  In the end this is a simple and forgiving dough but the devil was in the other details.
No scale, all measurements textbook method.

Flour (100%):    273.04 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs               2C + 3 T
Water (75%):    204.78 g  |  7.22 oz | 0.45 lbs            ¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t
IDY (0.55%):    1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp      ½ t
Salt (1.5%):    4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp   ¾ t
Total (177.05%):   483.42 g | 17.05 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.1218

That's all I can think of for now.
Hog





I think I may have screwed something up.  At 2.20 C of flour and .845 C of water, my dough is not really soft, or really wet.  We'll see what happens.  I've moved away from the Big D out to Ottawa and the pizza is horrible here.

Thanks for all the research Pizza Hog, I'm gonna keep trying this until I no longer suck.. Since I can't get good pizza out here in Ottawa.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 09:57:24 PM by KingMob4313 »

Offline KingMob4313

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #271 on: October 02, 2010, 05:34:55 PM »
My pizza didn't rise but I used bread machine yeast, which was my problem.  I'll have to play with the water amounts as well, mine was kinda dry and hard to work with.  I might try the recipe exactly as advertised but this time use the scale to make sure it's right. 

It's a great recipe, and a huge thanks to everyone who did the research for this.   Thanks for all the help,   

Also, I made a really great sauce with 6 ounces of Unico crushed tomatoes and 2 tsp bulk store Italian seasoning, 1/4 tsp each of black pepper, salt and red pepper flake done up in a spice grinder.  I'd say replace the salt with anchovy paste and you'd have something close to the Loui's sauce.

Pictures of my first partially failed pizza coming soon.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 10:02:20 PM by KingMob4313 »

Offline witchy1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 9
  • Location: Nashville, TN
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #272 on: October 16, 2010, 05:01:39 PM »
I had to reply since i tried making PizzaHog's dough today. I don't have a large enough metal pan, so I split the dough in half and used 2 cast iron skillets as the pan and used peanut oil as the "lube". All I can say is WOW!!! Great pie and so light and crisp! This is definitely going in the "Keep" pile!


Andrea
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 05:03:51 PM by witchy1 »

Offline steel_baker

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 185
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Southwestern Colorado
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #273 on: October 16, 2010, 05:44:13 PM »
Ya gotta love the peanut oil. Back home, the stores that make the same style of sicilian that I make mostly all use peanut oil. It's definitely a difference maker.

steel_baker
steel_baker  :chef:

Offline WallysPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #274 on: November 14, 2010, 01:02:01 PM »
Hi Everyone!

I'm going to try PizzaHog's recipe shortly but I have 12 x 17 pans, any recommendation on how to scale this recipe up to that pan size?

Once I get all my ingredients together and do a run through I'll post pics.

Thanks!

Offline WallysPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #275 on: November 14, 2010, 01:10:32 PM »
NM! I found the TF in PizzaHog's last recipe post and used the dough calculator.

Offline GIBBY

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Imlay City, Michigan
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #276 on: December 10, 2010, 10:53:26 PM »
With all the zigging and zagging that has occurred in this thread, I thought that it might be useful to pull together in one place what I believe we know about the Buddy’s style pizza based on information available at the Buddy’s website and from the posts of many of our members. In attempting this summary, I am aware that some of the information may no longer apply or may have been modified, as often happens in a non-static business environment. For example, at one time there was a link at the Buddy’s website to some very useful information on the Buddy’s pizzas, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm. However, that link no longer appears at the Buddy’s website—or at least I have not been able to find it. It is hard to know what the disappearance of the above link from its one highly prominent position means (unless they are cheapening their product) but since it is hard to imagine that Buddy’s has dramatically changed the character of its pizzas, I will assume for now that the information at the abovereferenced link is still valid.

Members should feel free to add to the summary presented below or to correct or amplify on any point raised. Here is my summary:

1. Buddy’s uses a “premium grade” flour for its pizza dough, and, based on a recent exchange with Buddy’s, it is bromated (which is common for a Sicilian style dough). The only other dough ingredients are water, yeast and salt. There is no sugar in the dough and there is no oil in the dough per se, although, as noted below, there is oil that is used in shaping the dough and in the pans used to bake the pizzas.

2. According to Buddy’s, the dough is made daily, at each store location, and the dough is double kneaded and allowed to rise for 1 to 1 ½ hours, presumably in pans. Some time ago, after I inquired, I was told that double kneading entails removing the dough from the mixer, patting it out, stretching it, and then panning it. One member has reported (at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765) that the dough making starts in the morning, for example, from about 8 AM to about 11 AM. That dough is then used during the course of the day to fill orders, with the dough made earliest in the morning (e.g., 8-9 AM) being used for the lunch business. Another member, at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248, has reported that the dough in the pans is allowed to rise and is then punched down again. It was also reported, at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73843.html#msg73843, that the dough is quite hard to press out. It has also been reported (at Reply 95 referenced above) that the water used to make the dough is ice cold and that the flour is also cold. That could account for some of the difficulty in pressing out the dough (a warm dough is much easier to work with). However, it is not clear whether the cold ingredients are used all of the time or only in the summer to achieve a relatively constant finished dough temperature when the stores are hotter than usual. Presumably, the pans of dough can be held in coolers to keep the dough from overfermenting/overproofing and removed and allowed to temper as needed to fill orders. If this is the method actually employed, it would not be unusual for different doughs to have different amounts of fermentation.  I have seen no evidence that the dough is held overnight (or longer) in coolers.

3. There are two basic pizza sizes for the Buddy’s pizzas, a “four square” and an “eight square”. In an exchange with Buddy’s, I was told that the pan size for the four-square is 8” x 10”, and 10” x 14” for the eight-square. The pans themselves are tapered and are made of steel. They are seasoned and are black in appearance (see http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-Fronts/COVER/080228/080228-pizza-vmed-3p.standard.jpg.) The pans are oiled before the dough is placed into the pans. Some workers also apparently use oil on their hands while shaping the dough before placing into the pans (Reply 99, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884). I believe the oil is vegetable oil.

4. The Buddy’s cheese is a brick cheese blend made especially for Buddy’s by Kraft, in Wisconsin. It is said to be shredded by hand although from a photo of the cheese that I have seen, at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, the cheese blend looks more diced than shredded, or else the shred is a short shred. According to Buddy’s, almost one pound of the cheese blend (15 ounces) is used to make the eight-square pizza. If the amount of cheese blend used for the four-square pizza is used proportionately, I estimate that the amount of cheese blend for that pizza comes to about 8.57 ounces, or 0.1071428 ounces per square inch. In both cases, the cheese blend is distributed to the outer edges of the pizzas to crisp up during baking. The cheese blend is put on the pizzas before the sauce.

5. The sauce for the Buddy’s pizzas is a non-chunky sauce and, according to Buddy’s, is made with a “blend of Stanislaus premium tomato products”, along with a proprietary blend of spices and herbs. The sauce is put on the pizzas in dollops to form wide “strips” (see http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG).

6. The pepperoni used by Buddy’s on its pizzas is the Margherita brand. It is a coarse grind pepperoni that is sold under the designation “Coarse Grind Pepperoni”, #38616-31329 (Reply 79, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg69983.html#msg69983). The pepperoni slices are thicker than usual and have been described as being about the size of a quarter. According to Buddy’s, the pepperoni slices are placed under the cheese blend to prevent charring. Based on http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, the four-square pepperoni pizza appears to have 20 pepperoni slices. Extrapolating to the larger size pan (the eight-square pan), a total of about 35 pepperoni slices seems possible.

7. The Buddy’s pizzas are said to be baked for 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven (see Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915). I believe the ovens are shown in the background at http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2008/02/29/image3891595g.jpg (see also what appears to be an oil container and brush to the left and behind Mary Hellers, the Buddy’s worker). The only bake temperature I have noted—375 degrees F (and a 13-minute bake time)--is the one given in Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872. Buddy’s also sells so-called “Half-Baked” pizzas (http://www.buddyspizza.com/half-baked-instructions.pdf) and, for those pizzas, it recommends that they be baked at 375-400 degrees F. I have seen no evidence of any pre-baking of the crusts.

Despite what we feel we know about the Buddy’s pizzas, there is much we do not know. For example, we don’t know the precise ingredients and quantities of ingredients used by Buddy’s, and we don’t know how much dough is used to make a particular pizza. We would have to purchase a basic Buddy’s pizza, such as a cheese pizza, weigh it, and try to work backwards to arrive at a possible dough weight and thickness factor. I also believe that the use of a bromated flour is an important aspect of the Buddy’s dough, and that the dough preparation and management methods, including hydration values, are also critical to the success of the Buddy’s pizzas. I also think that concentrating on a room-temperature fermented dough, either alone or in conjunction with a period of cold storage (but mainly for dough management purposes rather than for better crust flavor), is a productive way to proceed. I do not believe that “double kneading” is as important as Buddy’s has led us to believe. Some form of stretch and fold, or a rest period in the mixer followed by a final few turns, or a simple punchdown after an initial rise in the pan, should, in my opinion, serve as reasonable substitutes for the Buddy’s double knead method.

Peter

  Pete-zza, very cool idea to combine all this info into one post. Tomorrow, 12/11/10, my wife and I are heading to Roselli's to restock on flour (bromated), sauce, yeast, spice pack and maybe some white cheddar. Since a previous post mentioned white cheddar, that got my taste buds memory bank going and that could possibly the missing link in the cheese blend search. Buddy's cheese always had a medium sharp bite to it-probably with a bit of mozz to tame it down. My sauce seems to be a bit thicker than Buddy's. I'm going to mix a full can of sauce with a full can of water. The lady told me to mix 1 can of sauce with a half can water but that may have been for a pie that gets its sauce spread with a spoon-like on a flat round pie. Buddy's sauce needs to almost pour off the spoon.  Side note*** My F.I.L. is now a bar/restuarant owner. Long story, but my pizza will probably be on the menu. The place has a double Blodgett oven so I'm waiting to try it out and see how the pies come out-maybe that low inside height will change the pies looks or taste. But the place won't be ready for a few more months. Lots of remodeling to do.

Offline GIBBY

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Imlay City, Michigan
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #277 on: December 11, 2010, 12:47:00 AM »
I'm thinking that Buddy's being in the business of making a good product and making a big profit can't be messing around too much. The dough needs to be made early and be ready by the time the lunch crowd arrives. Everything has to be made in big batches and divided up for portion control. Any differences from one location to another probably stems from operators although my mom said that something as simple as humidity can wreak havoc on the dough rising properly. The Warren location is pretty consistant.

 Things we are sort of sure of:

 10X14 inch well seasoned steel pan that is never washed-just scraped clean and re-oiled.

 Oiled with either O.O., veg oil or canola oil.

 Bromated flour or bread/cake flour.

 Stanislus tomato sauce; heavy w/ basil, 7/11 or full red with very little seasoning added and thinned out

 Margherita brand coarse grind pepperoni. 4 slices of pep per slice of pie-32 slices for large 8 slice pie.

 Most likely a top secret Mozzarella/White Cheddar cheese blend that's near impossible to buy unless your Buddy's.

 15 ounces of cheese-although I found that depending on the day, that may be a bit much-sometimes it doesn't all melt.
 The cheddar might melt more thourougly.

 Dough on bottom then pepperoni then cheese then sauce on top. Pepperoni is put on bottom so it doesn't char.
 All other items placed on top.

 Orignal Buddy's used Blodgett ovens-newer locations use conveyer type ovens.

 Square pizzas are taken out of pan and served on round trays. (Weird, Huh?)

 **SIDE NOTE** Since this thread is mainly about Buddy's, I think I have their salad dressing real close.
    these proportions are what I use to make a batch.
    32 ounces of high quality red wine vinegar.
    16 ounces of veg oil. The label on Buddy's carry out bottle says they use soybean oil. Couldn't find it at my local Kroger.
    1 yellow onion- about the size of a cue ball or a little smaller, peeled, sliced.
    1 lemon. cut ends off and discard. Slice the rest thin.
    1 heaping teaspoon of preminced garlic from jar.
    1 teaspoon of ground peppercorn. I used a small electric coffee grinder.

    Add all ingredients in a jar or other container that can be shook well without it spilling.
   
    Shake well twice a day, then its ready in a week. When ready to use, strain through whatever you have.

    1 head of iceberg lettuce, 1 tomato sliced into 6 slices,1 handful of deli ham,1 salami and1 mozz cheese.
    Add a ladel of dressing -Enjoy!

                  GIBBY

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22143
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #278 on: December 11, 2010, 10:22:34 AM »
GIBBY,

Good to see you back and posting again.

Since I tried to pull everything together in the post you quoted, and maybe even starting before, there have been some changes at Buddy's. For one, Buddy's made changes to its website and no longer talks about the double knead method or the Stanislaus tomatoes or the Wisconsin brick cheese. It's hard to know whether Buddy's is just trying to hide what it does or maybe they have changed the way they run their operations. Buddy's is also in the process of reporting their nutrition information, as noted at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp. It is very difficult to reconstruct a product just from Nutrition Facts, but maybe together with other things we believe to be true there is a chance that we can find a few other pieces of the puzzle.

Another change at Buddy's is that they appear to have gone to another cheese source. For example, if you look at the Buddy's menu, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/WebsiteMenu7.2.10.pdf, at page 2, you will see the Foremost Farms logo off to the right. Foremost Farms is a large cheese cooperative that serves the foodservice industry. I was never able to find a Foremost cheese at the retail level, either under the Foremost name or another brand. If you look at some of the Foremost cheese blends, at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Cheese/1950-127-Brand.php, you will note a few that contain cheddar cheese, however I am not sure whether the cheddar cheese in the blends is a white cheddar cheese. However, there is that possibility since Foremost does sell a white cheddar (see the last item in the list) and the page I cited talks about cheeses used to make the types of pizzas that some Greeks made in the Northeast. The cheeses for the Greek style pizzas, even to this day, use mostly white cheddar cheese, either alone or in blends.

A while back, through email exchanges with Buddy's, I confirmed that the flour is, in fact, bromated, as I had suspected. That change is reflected in the summary you quoted.

On a somewhat related matter, recently I have been working with a couple of our members, including PizzaHog of this thread, to reverse engineer and clone a Jet's square pizza. As you know, Jet's is big in Michigan. I learned that they make and use their dough mainly for same day use but with a one day holdover in the cooler for next day use if needed. They also use steel pans and conveyors. I noted other similarities to the Buddy's system, as well as some differences, but it is quite possible that Jet's was influenced by the Buddy's experience. If you are interested, or if you know something about the Jet's square pizzas that might help with our reverse engineering efforts, you might visit the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.0.html. You can read my analysis to date at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg118161.html#msg118161. There might be something in that post that jogs your memory on some other aspect of Buddy's operation.

BTW, soybean oil is sold as vegetable oil in supermarkets. I know that Kroger sells it because I have some, under the Kroger brand name. Vegetable oil these days is almost exclusively soybean oil although I have seen an occasional soybean oil blend sold as vegetable oil.

Peter

Offline steel_baker

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 185
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Southwestern Colorado
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #279 on: December 11, 2010, 10:45:59 AM »

 Oiled with either O.O., veg oil or canola oil.

                  GIBBY

For a good tasting high smoke point oil for baking at the high temps a pizza oven uses try peanut oil. It doesn't burn or leave a bitter taste like some oils do at high temps.

steel_baker
steel_baker  :chef:


 

pizzapan