Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 177859 times)

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Offline localseo

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #380 on: January 23, 2012, 03:25:31 PM »
Finally the basics are all together so here is my recipe for Detroit Style Pie.
I attempted to incorporate as much of the info contained in this thread as possible.  Sort of trying to imagine how one of these pizzerias would pump out the dough and pies every day.  Whenever in doubt I referred to the KISS theory.  I also tried to use easily findable ingredients for everyone's convenience.  In the end this is a simple and forgiving dough but the devil was in the other details.
No scale, all measurements textbook method.

Flour (100%):    273.04 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs               2C + 3 T
Water (75%):    204.78 g  |  7.22 oz | 0.45 lbs             C + 1 T + 2 t
IDY (0.55%):    1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp       t
Salt (1.5%):    4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp    t
Total (177.05%):   483.42 g | 17.05 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.1218

KAAP, table salt, tap water, KA mixer with "C" dough hook, 10x14 black steel pan.
Dissolve salt in water, add flour, sprinkle IDY on top.  Mix on lowest speed until incorporated then continue on this speed for a 8 min knead.  20 mins rest to relax then scrape into greased pan, spread, cover, rise, dress and bake on bottom oven rack for 15 min at 475.

Yeast.  I have varied between 0.33 and 1.1% and the only noticeable effect was rise time so adjust away.  The above formula is usable in 3-4 hours at room temp for me.

This is a wet, soft, sticky, extensible dough.  Not much handling possible or needed.  With fingers oiled from the tips to 2nd joint it smooshes out fairly easy.  The "double knead" process does make it easier to spread as described in Peter's helpful summary http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436.

The magic cheese here is indeed white cheddar.  If these pizzarias are not/were not using this, then it must be white cheddar's twin sister.  I have used Boar's Head Vermont white cheddar and Cabot Extra Sharp white cheddar from Walmart, sold in 2 lb blocks and half the price of Boar's Head.  The Cabot is the sharper, saltier, and more intense of the two, but they both caramelize up golden to brown (not black) and have the unmistakable flavor profile of the Detroit style.  Blending these with a mozz that goes creamy and goey adds an interesting effect and can soften the sharp cheddar if desired, but ONLY pure white cheddar should be used on the perimeter of the pan to create the all important caramelized cheese crust.  Shredded or cubed both work.  Pile the cheese up around the perimeter of the pan then fill in the center.  15 oz is what Buddy's indicate they use.

Pan prep.  Every pan lube I have tried works.  OO appears to be most authentic and is what I am using now.  Getting this right results in a good crisp fry without the pie ending up greasy.  In the 10x14 pan, 1 1/2 tsp spread with a pastry brush is about perfect since the brush does soak up and remove some of the oil.  The cheese crust always welds itself to the pan for me.  To prevent this, I paint a thin strip of shortening just above the risen dough with a brush around the sides of the pan before piling on the cheese.  It still does not pop out, but can at least be released with just a little effort. 

Sauce.  All the Detroit pizzerias have quite diff sauces and 6 fluid ounces seems about right for a 10x14.  I have not yet succeeded in coming up with any of the individual sauces of the big 3, I think. 

The crumb and texture here is better than passable but I believe bromated flour would be necessary to close the gap.  Even so, this pie could be mistaken for one of the real things, past or present.  That is due to these pizzas being a moving target.  Since starting this quest I have used 4 diff Buddy's locations for "controls" and over that year have experienced 3 diff versions of the same pie!  The last was just this week and after I thought I had the sauce figured, they either changed it dramatically or the particular location I visited (for the first time) is just diff or something.  Plus the cheese was not right.  It was one of their carry out only's so maybe that is the reason?   
 
PJ, I pull the pie out of the pan immediately and onto a cooling rack to preserve the bottom crisp until served.  I found this helped with the way over hydrated 90% version of Sicilian dough and also with some NY styles.  To be honest, I never tested if this matters with this particular formula but am just in the habit.

That's all I can think of for now.
Hog
Hog,
I have made this twice and each time the dough is not very wet.  It forms a nice ball like a traditional pizza dough.  I don't have a scale so I am measuring by volume but I am being exact with water and flour and both times yield the same result.  I have a third attempt resting and instead of:
flour: 2C + 3 T
Water C + 1 T + 2 t

I did:
flour: 2C + 4 T
Water 1/ C + 1 T + 2 t

That got a dough that is similar to pancake batter.  Just wondering what I could be doing wrong with your recipe.

Also, what water temp (roughly) do you use?



Offline Matthew

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #381 on: January 28, 2012, 03:12:32 AM »
Hog,
At what point does the sauce go on?  Is it cooked or right out of the can?

Matt

Offline sailor570

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #382 on: January 29, 2012, 03:24:18 AM »
BDoggPizza,

I took the liberty of converting your dough recipe to a baker's percent format, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (63.1111%):
IDY (0.3951%):
Salt (2.1875%):
Olive Oil (0.88183%):
Sugar (2.08333%):
Total (168.65886%):
255.15 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
161.03 g  |  5.68 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
2.25 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
430.33 g | 15.18 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = N/A

I also calculated a thickness factor based on your round 13" pan (deep-dish PSTK) of 0.1143592 [15.179155/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.1143592].

Peter


Peter.
These are more questions about the calculator, but I don't know how to quote this and put it elsewhere.

1.) I have not previously understood how one arrives at a thickness factor without looking it up in a table. I have done forum searches, and read the Expanded Pizza Dough Calculator "further details" and seen nothing but the general comments. But it's clear from your calculation that TF is ounces of dough per square inch. I did finally see more info in the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator "further details", but since I never used that tool. I never looked at its "further details". My suggestion is that you somehow also link that entry into all the dough tools, or at least its explanation of TF.

2.) In this reply, you took BDogg's recipe, and input it into the calculator without previously knowing the final weight, or the thickness factor. Your printout of the initial results came up with percentages, without a TF. You then calculated the TF. I've wanted to do that, but was unable without spending considerable time "approximating" percentages till the numbers matched. How do you, and therefore I, easily input the data into the calculator, from a recipe like BDogg's that only gives quantity's?

Thank You
Blair

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #383 on: January 29, 2012, 10:15:13 AM »
Blair,

I think if I show you how I came up with the dough formulation you referenced, you will see how everything, including the thickness factor, fits together and are related. For this purpose, I will use the recipe that BDoggPizza posted earlier in this thread, as follows:

Detroit Style Pizza

Dough Recipe               
Flour    9 oz               
Water    5.68 oz just under cup                   
IDY    1/3 tsp               
Salt    1 tsp               
Oil    tsp               
Sugar    1 1/3 tsp


The first thing I did was to convert the volume measurements for the IDY, salt, oil and sugar to weight measurements (the flour and water are already given by weight). In order to do this, you need to know the volume-to-weight conversion factors for these ingredients. I used the conversion factors that are embedded into the expanded dough calculating tool. They are as follows:

IDY: 1t. = 0.133333 oz.
Salt: 1 t. = 0.196875 oz. (this is for regular table salt)
Oil: 1 t. = 0.1587301 oz. (this is for olive oil)
Sugar: 1 t. 0.140625 oz. (this is for regular table sugar)

With the above conversion factors, I am able to convert the volumes of all of the above ingredients into weights. Once I have all of the weights, I can add them all up to get the total dough weight. I am also able to calculate the baker's percents by simply dividing the weight of each ingredient by the weight of the flour. The flour is always 100%, by definition.

I am now ready to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I simply select the Dough Weight option and fill in all the blanks with the required information.

The only remaining step is to calculate the thickness factor. The purpose for doing this is to allow one to use the expanded dough calculating tool (or the Lehmann dough calculating tool if desired) to make dough for a different size pizza. For this, you need the thickness factor. In our example, we know the size of pan that BDoggPizza used. It is 13". For that size pan, the thickness factor equals the dough weight divided by 3.14159 x R x R, where R is the radius of the pan.

You might want to keep in mind that different types of pizzas can have different thickness factors. I have written on this subject many times before but I believe the last time I did so in some depth was at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759. Many people start with a thickness factor, whether it is one of those I listed in Reply 1 above or one of their own choosing to meet their own specific needs or requirements. When starting with a thickness factor, the Thickness Factor option of the selected dough calculating tool is used and the blanks are filled in wiith the required information. Our members design and modify their own formulations all the time, in most cases on their own and without help from others. Members usually come to me when they need to convert a recipe such as that used by BDoggPizza into baker's percent format.

Peter
 

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #384 on: January 30, 2012, 02:17:17 PM »
Quote
Hog,
I have made this twice and each time the dough is not very wet.  It forms a nice ball like a traditional pizza dough.  I don't have a scale so I am measuring by volume but I am being exact with water and flour and both times yield the same result.  I have a third attempt resting and instead of:
flour: 2C + 3 T
Water C + 1 T + 2 t

I did:
flour: 2C + 4 T
Water 1/ C + 1 T + 2 t

That got a dough that is similar to pancake batter.  Just wondering what I could be doing wrong with your recipe.

Also, what water temp (roughly) do you use?

localseo
Hmm..., this could be a result of different measuring methods with the flour.  I use the "textbook" method which is to fluff up the flour in the container first, then spoon the flour into the measuring cup until it is just overfull, then cut off the excess flat with the top of the cup.  This yields the least weight of flour per cup of all volume methods, but is the most repeatable.  If you are measuring differently then you are prob ending up with more flout than I.  My fav version is thicker than pancake batter for sure but still needs to be scraped out of the bowl and is pretty impossible to handle otherwise.
I have only messed with water temp when mixing up a fast emergency dough or when really extending the fermentation, otherwise it is always just as it comes out of the tap.

Quote
Hog,
At what point does the sauce go on?  Is it cooked or right out of the can?

Matt

Hey Matt
Uncooked and spooned on with the cheese and other toppings before hitting the oven, no pre-bake or late additions. 

Hog

Offline Matthew

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #385 on: January 30, 2012, 04:06:16 PM »


Hey Matt
Uncooked and spooned on with the cheese and other toppings before hitting the oven, no pre-bake or late additions. 

Hog

Merci!

Offline peterinco

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #386 on: February 06, 2012, 10:11:52 PM »
I grew up in large part on the east side of Detroit.  Buddy's, the original in Hamtramck was by far the family favorite.  And I spent many late nights at Buscemi's.  Another favorite was a place called the Green Onion on Mack Ave. (the typical "party store" tray pizza, a portable burner underneath, and a plastic cover); another was a place called Vince's on Eight Mile--more like "bakery pizza" (soft, bread-like crust).  When in college my Summer job was driving a Coke truck, so I have been to virtually every neighborhood and party store then in the metro area.

Eventually I will get around to posting my recipe (I learned the gist of it on P. Allen Smith's garden show)--super simple, no sugar, no oil.  (http://www.pallensmith.com/food/recipes/perfect-pizza-crust)

Anyway...  It is going to take me a while to catch-up on the 20 pages here.  But my two biggest thoughts/questions are:

1.  I haven't seen any mention of milk in the dough in this thread (EDIT:  wrong, it is there).  I have been experimenting with a Pizza Hut pan pizza recipe and it calls for nonfat dry milk (liquid can be substituted).  Some of the pictures in this thread tend to look like crusts using this ingredient.

2.  How commonly do you all add gluten?  I tend to buy inexpensive unbleached flour and typically use about a third-40% whole wheat flour with a dab of honey.  I've started to add a couple of teaspoons of vital wheat gluten.  Any comments on this?

I look forward to studying this thread!

EDIT:  The other place that I couldn't think of was called Cal's--on Warren Avenue.  It was a little sort of dark bar with a tacky seventies decor.  Typical Detroit area for that time.  I mean, I don't think the original Buddy's ever received any decorating awards.  And I have been to Shield's and probably half a dozen knock-offs where the chef went, or owner started etc.  Anyway, Cal's was outstanding as well--and I think they used to sell their pizzas in little tin trays for bake at home.  So I'm thinking the whole thing isn't such a big secret or that it is that difficult to approximate.

QUESTION:  If I read the rest of this thread will I find the word "boomba?"

EDIT #2:  Okay Hog, you appear to be THE man.  I'm up to Reply #193 and it seems you're just about there. The whole thing reads like a suspense story.  Found boomba (and Cal's), albeit misspelled...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 01:01:49 AM by peterinco »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #387 on: February 07, 2012, 10:02:13 AM »
peterinco,

With respect to the vital wheat gluten, on this forum it is a mixed bag. Some members use it and feel it makes a better dough for them, especially if they are looking to increase the protein content of the flour they are using, whereas other members do not like it at all and won't use it. FYI, there is even a tool accessible at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, called the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, that can be used to determine how much vital wheat gluten to add to a given flour to increase its protein content by a specified amount.

In some countries, the flours that are available are so weak that one of the few options available to increase the protein content is vital wheat gluten. In the U.S. our choices are almost endless although it will usually be difficult to find high-gluten flours at the retail store level.

You are also correct that some pan style pizzas, like the original Pizza Hut pan style pizzas, used dry milk powder in their doughs. At one point, when their pan style doughs were made fresh (they are now all frozen), they used a dairy blend that included whey, nonfat milk and buttermilk.

I do not believe that members have been using either vital wheat gluten or dry milk powder to make Buddy's or similar clones.

Peter

Offline joelb79

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #388 on: March 02, 2012, 01:59:40 PM »
This was posted in the Detroit News in the early 80's:

Buddy's Deep Dish Detroit Style Pizza

CRUST:
1 pkg yeast (dissolved in 1/4 c warm water)
2 tsp dry milk (add to yeast & proof 10 min)
1 tsp sugar
4 1/4 c flour
1 tsp salt
2 Tbs olive oil
1 1/4 c warm water
Stir all ingr. plus yeast mxt. in large bowl using only half flour.
When blended add remaining flour. Knead, cover, rise till double.
Make 2 balls.

SAUCE:
2-15 oz cans tomato puree (Or one 29 oz can)
2 Tbs olive oil
1 tsp salt
1/2 tsp garlic salt
2 cloves garlic, minced
1/2 tsp basil
1 tsp oregano
2 tsp sugar
Combine all & simmer 15 minutes.

Place dough in 2 heavily oiled 9 x 12 pans.
Pepperoni on dough, then mushrooms then 4 cups of cheese.
Scatter green pepper & onions on cheese.
Then 3 long rows of sauce on top.
Bake preheated 450 for 20-25 minutes.

Please notice that this recipe uses less moisture % than what I am seeing here on page 20 of this thread.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 01:07:20 AM by joelb79 »

Offline rpmfla

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #389 on: April 02, 2012, 04:54:55 PM »
I live and work in Tampa, Florida...home of Peter Taylor and his Woodfired Pizza and Wine Bar. Now, a new Detroit style place has opened less than a block from the university where I work. It is called Pizza Squared, Detroit Style Pizza. I think the owner may have posted here at...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17214.0.html

I have read the whole Raquel thread and now the whole of this thread, so I can now make really great pizzas at home in either style.

I have never posted pics here before but am going to give it a try.

The square pizza was my first attempt using the recipe at post 199 of this thread. I love it! I like how the very wet dough can be smooshed out to fill the pan.


Peter has this pizza at Woodfired he calls the Dante because it uses Dante cheese. It is spicy, with Sriracha Hot Sauce. The Diablo is my version.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 05:08:25 PM by rpmfla »


Offline rpmfla

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #390 on: April 02, 2012, 05:02:50 PM »
Oh, and I forgot to mention...

I didn't know what Brick Cheese was so I did some research and somewhere it said you could substitute Havarti. So I used Havarti on the edges and a Havarti/Mozz blend toward the center.

The sauce was just Tomato Magic which I absolutely think makes a great sauce right out of the can. My other ingredients were pepperoni, italian hot sausage (pre cooked and dabbed with paper towels to remove some grease), mushrooms, and those little red/orange/yellow sweet peppers.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #391 on: April 02, 2012, 05:08:45 PM »
Rod,

You did a terrific job.

Peter

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #392 on: April 02, 2012, 05:38:22 PM »
rpmfla,

Both your pies look great, but the square one...... :chef:

Offline norma427

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #393 on: April 02, 2012, 08:46:49 PM »
Rod,

Your crumb looks fantastic!  :chef:

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #394 on: April 02, 2012, 08:59:16 PM »
I had been waiting for some time to see when Buddy's would come out with the Nutrition Facts for their pizzas. A few months ago, I checked the Buddy's website and saw that the Nutrition Facts had finally been posted, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3. Unfortunately, the Nutrition Facts do not state weights, only slice serving sizes.

If one were able to purchase or otherwise procure a Buddy's dough ball, I think it should be possible to do some tests to determine the type of flour used and the hydration value that Buddy's uses for its dough. My recollection is that the Buddy's dough is only flour, water, yeast and salt, and no oil or sugar. That is perhaps the easiest type of dough to reverse engineer and clone. The Nutrition Facts then might become useful to further flesh out and confirm the formulation.

Peter

Offline tberichon

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #395 on: April 16, 2012, 06:29:34 PM »
I believe the secret is in the hydration. I tried up to 100% but texture was wet inside and chewy. 75% is the correct amount and using
hot 125-130* water you can have a pizza out of the oven in 3 hours. Black steel pans are also important.

water 75%
salt   1.5%
yeast .4 to .6 depending on ferment

used cusinart last few times instead of KA and actually mixed better i thought.
makes awesome breadsticks too.
475* middle bottom rack for 15 min

Offline tberichon

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #396 on: April 16, 2012, 06:31:38 PM »
sauce on top, cheese to pan.

Offline tberichon

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #397 on: April 16, 2012, 06:32:15 PM »
side view

Offline rpmfla

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #398 on: April 16, 2012, 08:12:39 PM »
Excellent looking pizza!

I did my first one at 475 for about 14 minutes and felt the cheese was a little over cooked. The last one I did at 450 for 16 minutes and it was perfect. I think everyone's oven is different, so it is important to adjust for your own oven. The important thing to shoot for is a nicely browned bottom and crust without over cooking the toppings.

Offline rpmfla

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #399 on: April 19, 2012, 01:46:07 PM »
A couple of friends and I went to the new Detroit Style place for lunch yesterday, and I asked him about the Brick Cheese and that I had heard that you can substitute mild white cheddar or havarti for it in a recipe.

He brought out two little plastic cups with shredded cheese in each and said one was Brick Cheese and the other is mild white cheddar. Well I have to say there was a huge difference between the two. The white cheddar was familiar in texture and taste, as we have come to know, but the Brick Cheese was creamy like havarti or (as my friend said, muenster), and the main flavor I got was "buttery".

I had used havarti in my first two attempts at Detroit Style Pizza, and it was good, but even while it came close in texture, it was too sharp in flavor compared to Brick Cheese. The owner of this restaurant, Pizza Squared, offered to sell me some Brick Cheese at his cost which he said would be less than what I could buy it for. I told him I'd buy some the next time I went there. He seems like a real nice guy.

Oh, and one other thing he mentioned was that he uses no oil at all in his pans when cooking his pizzas. I had lightly coated my pan with oil and it worked fine, but I could see not using oil for health reasons if one was woriied about trying to make this already decadent pizza as healthy as possible.