"Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's

[TXCraig1]

Peter,

Just to clarify:  I was aware of people putting the sauce on after baking; I've even done it myself.  What was new - to me, anyway - was warming the sauce.  I've always just put the sauce on at room temperature, same as when putting the sauce on pre-bake.  Call me a slow learner, but it never occurred to me to heat the sauce separately.

Gene

That is how I've been doing it. Just warm, I don't bring it to a boil.

[gschwim]

I can only scan to a .pdf.
I've got an old digital camera and a new iPhone so I'll check that possibility next time.

What you did was fine.  I hadn't seen your subsequent post when I wrote mine.

Gene

[gschwim]

That is how I've been doing it. Just warm, I don't bring it to a boil.

I've been putting the sauce on at room temperature and relying on the hot pizza to warm it up.  But I'll try pre-warming it and see if it makes a difference.

Gene

[norma427]

I'm shy, but maybe someone would like to email Randazzo for an explanation.

Gene

Gene,

I can email Shawn Randazzo if you want to try to find out an explanation to why the pie is in the oven without the pan. 

Norma

[PizzaioloCow]

Hi!

These are some Detroit-style pizzas I made earlier today.  I tried to follow TXCraig1's process as closely as possible, but it didn't work out perfectly due to my lack of the Ischia culture; I overcompensated while trying to convert to IDY and, thus, the dough ended up getting a night of cold fermentation to slow down yeast activity.  Immediately after being mixed the dough spent four hours in bulk at room temp (68F), overnight in the fridge in bulk, and 6 hours balled in the pans.  I had enough dough to make one 9x13 inch pizza and one 12" pizza.  In terms of area, the pan's were actually pretty close (117 square inches for the 9x13 pizza and approximately 113 square inches for the pizza that was 12 inches in diameter), so the thickness factors were fairly similar.  The recipe I used was:

100% high-gluten flour
75% hydration
2% salt
2% evoo
.7% IDY
Thickness factor: .1375

Next time I want to use a whole milk mozzarella (this was part-skim, so it broke down too fast).  I will also let the sauce warm up a bit more before going on the baked pizza; the sauce on the round one was a little on the cool side.  The crust cooked very well; it had a nice crunch on the bottom and was very tender on the inside.

Pictures:
1) 9x13 pizza just before being topped
2) 12" pizza just before being topped
3) 12" pizza topped with half pepperoni and half cheese
4) Baked 12" pizza with sauce added
5) Slice of round pizza
6) Undercrust of slice
7) Crumb shot

Thanks!
-Jake

[TXCraig1]

Looks great. I like the nice dark edge.

[gschwim]

Gene,

I can email Shawn Randazzo if you want to try to find out an explanation to why the pie is in the oven without the pan. 

Norma

That would be great - and I'm sure others would like to know why, too.

Thanks!

Gene

[norma427]

That would be great - and I'm sure others would like to know why, too.

Thanks!

Gene

Gene,

I did email Shawn.  I don’t understand either if Shawn is trying to teach other people how to make a Detroit style pizza why he would place the pizza back on the deck at the end of the bake.  It just seems to me that is the way he might make half-baked pizzas to be sent.  I could be wrong on that though.  You might be right that it is just to crisp the crust more, but I don’t see why there would be any problems with just using a steel pan to create a crispy bottom.

Norma

[PizzaioloCow]

Thanks for the nice comments, TXCraig1!

Quick question; when you guys do Detroit-style, do you begin to stretch the dough to fit the pans immediately after dividing it into balls, or do you allow it to proof and relax in the pan and then stretch it just before topping the pizza?

Thanks!
-Jake

[TXCraig1]

Thanks for the nice comments, TXCraig1!

Quick question; when you guys do Detroit-style, do you begin to stretch the dough to fit the pans immediately after dividing it into balls, or do you allow it to proof and relax in the pan and then stretch it just before topping the pizza?

Thanks!
-Jake

I do about 12 hours in bulk, ball it, let it rest 6 hours, stretch to fit the pan, then let it rise in the pan for 6 more hours.

[norma427]

Quick question; when you guys do Detroit-style, do you begin to stretch the dough to fit the pans immediately after dividing it into balls, or do you allow it to proof and relax in the pan and then stretch it just before topping the pizza?

Thanks!
-Jake

Jake,

What I do now all depending on if I am using an emergency dough or a cold fermented dough is to ball and then place the dough ball in the greased pan.  Either put it in the oven with the light on for an emergency dough, or put it into the fridge for the cold ferment.  Then press the dough out and temper again until the dough ferments enough.  I just use IDY though.  No matter if I use an emergency dough or a cold ferment the second ferment is needed for me.  I do cover my pans for either way and even for the cold ferment so the dough ball and skin doesn’t dry out.

Norma

[gschwim]

Gene,

I did email Shawn.  I don’t understand either if Shawn is trying to teach other people how to make a Detroit style pizza why he would place the pizza back on the deck at the end of the bake.  It just seems to me that is the way he might make half-baked pizzas to be sent.  I could be wrong on that though.  You might be right that it is just to crisp the crust more, but I don’t see why there would be any problems with just using a steel pan to create a crispy bottom.

Norma

Well, let's hope he answers, because I'm curious.  Maybe it was a half-bake for a mail order pizza; however, my impression is that it was a "staged" bake, done for the camera.

Keep in mind, also, that there's a "time-lapse cut" in the video in between putting the pizza in and taking it out, so who knows what happened during the several "missing" minutes?  In fact, I replayed the video a couple of times just to make sure that the beginning and ending shots are of the same pizza.  It looks like it is.

I'm also curious what temperature he used.

Gene

[norma427]

Gene,

Hopefully Shawn replies to my email, but I can understand if he doesn‘t reply. Shawn is a busy man trying to promote Detroit style pizzas, running his pizzerias and the selling of Detroit style steel pans.  I would guess he is preparing to participate in the championships again soon too. 

Did you ever try PizzaHog’s recipe for a Buddy’s clone at Reply 199  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963  I plan on trying PizzaHog’s recipe and his methods in the next couple of weeks.

Norma

[Ev]

Actually, last night I made 2 DS pies using previously frozen dough. For whatever reason, the bottoms did not brown enough when the rest of the pies were done, so I removed them from the pans and put them right on the stones for a couple minutes to crisp up. Worked great.

[gschwim]

Gene,

Hopefully Shawn replies to my email, but I can understand if he doesn‘t reply. Shawn is a busy man trying to promote Detroit style pizzas, running his pizzerias and the selling of Detroit style steel pans.  I would guess he is preparing to participate in the championships again soon too.  

Did you ever try PizzaHog’s recipe for a Buddy’s clone at Reply 199  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963  I plan on trying PizzaHog’s recipe and his methods in the next couple of weeks.

Norma

Norma,

I'll understand if Randazzo doesn't reply, too, but Buddy's has been pretty good about responding to Peter's inquiries, so I'm hoping.  From what I've seen so far, pizza bakers seem to like to talk about pizza.

Funny that you mention Pizzahog's recipe just now, because I was thinking of trying it tonight.  I did try it once before, but don't recall the results, so I want to try again.

I'm also thinking of trying a higher hydration - 75% or even 80%.  Peter Reinhart has a ciabatta recipe with an 80% hydration.  Ciabatta loaves, of course, are very light, with large holes, which is what I'm after.  And I want to up the IDY to 1 tsp (to 500 g of flour) to get the 1 hour rise that I'm getting with the recipe I linked to on the "Two Bills" thread.  If the only element I'm keeping from Pizzahog's recipe is the amount of salt, I suspect that it's like the guy who has the original axe that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree - except that, over the years, he's had to replace the handle and the axe head a few times.  Anyway, I'm thinking, the higher the hydration, the easier it will be to spread the dough across the pan.

Also, having used butter-flavored Crisco in the past to grease the pan, it occurred to me to try using actual clarified butter, which is what I use whenever I pan-fry something.

My main goal, at the moment, is not so much developing a recipe, it's getting the cheddar not to stick to the inside of the pan.  Last night, I did an experiment, where I put cheddar cheese on two sides of the pan, and simply extended the mozzarella I've been putting in the middle, to the other two sides.  The mozzarella stuck much less, so now I'm also going to try mixing the cheddar directly with the mozzarella (50/50?) and spreading the combination all the way across the pan.

If any of this yields a good result, I'll let you know.

Gene

[gschwim]

Actually, last night I made 2 DS pies using previously frozen dough. For whatever reason, the bottoms did not brown enough when the rest of the pies were done, so I removed them from the pans and put them right on the stones for a couple minutes to crisp up. Worked great.

I can see the logic of putting the pie right on the deck oven.  Yes, the bottom of the pan gets hot, but it's smooth steel, while deck oven surfaces are porous stone, so I can see why one might get a better result on the stone.  Obviously, there's a reason why the Neopolitan wood-burning pizza oven makers line the surface with stone instead of steel.

Gene

[Pete-zza]

Obviously, there's a reason why the Neopolitan wood-burning pizza oven makers line the surface with stone instead of steel.

Gene,

Our Neapolitan pizza experts can correct me if I am wrong but I think the reason why Neapolitan wood-fired ovens use stone baking surfaces is because that is the way it has always been done, going back hundreds of years, in many cases using materials indigenous to Naples and the surrounding areas. The use of metal baking surfaces in lieu of stone surfaces is of more recent vintage. For example, the factory RotoFlex deck oven comes with a metal baking surface, but it can be retrofitted to use stone if the customer desires.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Obviously, there's a reason why the Neopolitan wood-burning pizza oven makers line the surface with stone instead of steel.

It has everything to do with the thermal conductivity of the stone. At 900F+, it has to be very low. If you made the deck out of steel, at 900F the bottom of the pie would be black and burned to a crisp within seconds of landing. It would be a disaster.  There is even a noticeable difference between the clay-like Biscotto di Sorrento in my oven and the slightly more conductive firebrick in other ovens I've used.

[norma427]

Norma,

Funny that you mention Pizzahog's recipe just now, because I was thinking of trying it tonight.  I did try it once before, but don't recall the results, so I want to try again.

I'm also thinking of trying a higher hydration - 75% or even 80%.  Peter Reinhart has a ciabatta recipe with an 80% hydration.  Ciabatta loaves, of course, are very light, with large holes, which is what I'm after.  And I want to up the IDY to 1 tsp (to 500 g of flour) to get the 1 hour rise that I'm getting with the recipe I linked to on the "Two Bills" thread.  If the only element I'm keeping from Pizzahog's recipe is the amount of salt, I suspect that it's like the guy who has the original axe that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree - except that, over the years, he's had to replace the handle and the axe head a few times.  Anyway, I'm thinking, the higher the hydration, the easier it will be to spread the dough across the pan.

If any of this yields a good result, I'll let you know.

Gene

Gene,

I am wondering about trying a higher hydration than 75% for a Detroit style pizza..  I have tried doughs with a higher hydration than 75% on the Pizzarium thread and on another Sicilain thread and for me there are hard to manage in terms of how to mix the dough and also how to keep the crumb from falling in the bake.  

I had few successes, but more failures than successes.  If you plan to use less salt than PizzaHog used I would think you might have more problems, but wish you the best of success with your methods and what you plan to do.  Let us know how it works out.  You never know how something will turn out until you actually try it yourself.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Gene,

To add to my last post, a few months ago, a member at the PMQ Think Tank, himself a skilled professional, mentioned that he saw Shawn's dough and that it was one step above a batter and proofed for a long time. See http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656&hilit=#p84302. Sometimes with a wet dough it is hard to get adequate bottom crust browning while baking everything on top of the dough without extending the normal bake time or using more oil in the pan to "fry" the bottom crust. It will be interesting to see what Shawn says should he decide to answer, but possibly he "decks" the pizza as a way of finishing the bake within the desired time and without having to resort to using more oil in the pan.

Also, the fact that the stone is porous does not mean that it absorbs moisture from the dough, as is commonly believed. It is the heat in the stone that finishes the bake. There are many pizza operators who start pizzas on screens or disks and then "deck" them onto the oven's stone surface toward the end of the bake to get more bottom crust browning.

Peter