Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 214493 times)

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Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #525 on: February 21, 2013, 11:25:46 AM »
Gene,

Since you posted you might want to try 65% hydration for a Buddyís pizza you might want to look at this thread started by Britt (Skee) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.0.html

Peterís summary on what the differences are for a Buddyís and Jetís pizza are at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.msg238665.html#msg238665

I didnít think that the Buddyís pizza I purchased and was sent to me was that high in hydration either, but then I didnít taste it right out of the oven and I also did a fairly long second bake.

Norma

I mainly want to see if the lower hydration would make the dough crisp better on the bottom.  Trust me, even if the "65% experiment" isn't a success, I will still eat the result...  :^)

Gene


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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #526 on: February 21, 2013, 11:37:29 AM »
Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #527 on: February 21, 2013, 12:37:33 PM »
I mainly want to see if the lower hydration would make the dough crisp better on the bottom.  Trust me, even if the "65% experiment" isn't a success, I will still eat the result...  :^)

Gene


Gene,

I really don't think the dough will crisp better on the bottom based on my first experiments for a Jet's pizza, but would be interested if you tried a lower hydration what results you would get.  If interested see the next post to Peter.

Norma

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #528 on: February 21, 2013, 12:40:32 PM »
Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter


Peter,

By coincidence, a uniformed agent of the federal government just delivered my preseasoned pans from the Detroit Style Pizza Co., with the Norma Seal of Approval stamped right on the box...  :^)  They look a lot like the "raw" pan I seasoned yesterday with another method I am trying, so now I can compare and if my pan works as well, I'll share the method I used and everyone can save some money.

I watched the video and agree with you:  Judging by the dough balls' height, that definitely is not a high-hydration dough.  Below is a photo of my own dough with a 70-75% hydration.  (I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure that it's 70%.)  As you can see, especially with the dough ball on the right, the dough, unconfined to a small container, spreads out quite a bit, much more than the Jet's dough balls.

I made a note to try a 65% hydration over the weekend; depending on the result, maybe I'll even try 60%, just to see how far I can go.

Gene
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 12:49:36 PM by gschwim »

Offline norma427

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #529 on: February 21, 2013, 12:42:49 PM »
Gene,

Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter


Peter,

In the video of the Jetís pizza the dough does look to be about 65% hydration, at least to me.  There doesnít look like there is any stickness to the dough or to the employees fingers.  The dough does look soft though.

Tommy Nott posted a side view of a slice of a real Jetís pizza at Reply 141 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg162104.html#msg162104  It can be seen what height that slice was.  If Gene is interested he can see the Jetís attempt I made at Reply 144 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg162459.html#msg162459  and the crumb photos and baked height also can be seen if you go down more in the pictures.  Gene can also see segfault Jetís pizza at Reply 156 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg164019.html#msg164019  For me the differences in a Jetís pizza is the caramelized edges and how soft the Buddyís is to eat.  Jetís doesnít pile the cheese on the edges like Buddyís does.  Tommy Nott also posted more pictures of a Jetís pizza at Reply 122 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg158444.html#msg158444

If Gene goes back to the other Jetís pizzas I made he can see that my bottom crust didnít brown well.  Maybe it was my steel pans that werenít seasoned enough or something else I did wrong.

Norma

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #530 on: February 26, 2013, 09:29:20 PM »
I talked my wife through PizzaHog's DS dough recipe at lunch today and she pressed the dough into these Calphalon Non-Stick pans I bought at TJ Maxx for $8.99. While I typically abhor non-stick cookware, for the purpose of DS pies they are "DA BOMB". Pizzas slide out with one finger onto the cooling rack.

John K
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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #531 on: February 26, 2013, 09:33:01 PM »
The crust cooked up very nicely!



John K
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:42:43 PM by Steve »
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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #532 on: February 26, 2013, 09:47:28 PM »
John K,

Very nice job with the DS pizzas.

Did you and your wife follow PizzaHog's recipe exactly, including the size of the pans?

Peter

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #533 on: February 26, 2013, 09:51:53 PM »
John,

I agree, very nice job with the Detroit style pizzas.  I guess you are now hooked too.   :-D

Norma


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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #534 on: February 26, 2013, 10:06:47 PM »
John K,

Very nice job with the DS pizzas.

Did you and your wife follow PizzaHog's recipe exactly, including the size of the pans?

Peter
Peter,

Followed percentages exactly.
Flour = KAAP 500g
Water = 375g
IDY = 3g
Salt = 7g

Pans are 9 x 13

500F for about 18 mins total

John K
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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #535 on: February 26, 2013, 10:07:45 PM »
John,

I agree, very nice job with the Detroit style pizzas.  I guess you are now hooked too.   :-D

Norma

Hooked indeed!  :drool:

John K
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #536 on: February 26, 2013, 10:27:41 PM »
Peter,

Sorry for the fragmented response. That recipe made 2 balls.

John K
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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #537 on: April 01, 2013, 10:51:36 AM »
There's an article in the Detroit Free Press today about DS pizza with a video showing Shawn Randazzo talking about the style.
http://tinyurl.com/Detroit-Style-Pizza

I still can't get that nice caramelized cheese around the outside, though.

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #538 on: April 01, 2013, 12:03:43 PM »
My pizzas are starting to come out okay, but I'm still having a problem with cheese sticking to the sides of the pan.  Last time, on another poster's advice, I tried a solid fat, butter-flavored Crisco, but still had a problem.

Even then, for home, I'm okay, but I'm thinking of the cafe my partners and I are contemplating.  In NYC, where I am, the Health Dept. is really strict.  One of my restaurant-operator customers told me the other day that the Health Dept. had popped in for one of their spot inspections, a couple of days before.  They only come when the restaurant is open and serving customers (which really disrupts their workflow), and they almost always find something wrong.  My customer and I suspect that these inspections are the restaurant equivalent of a speed trap, designed not so much to ensure healthful operations as to raise money for City coffers, so they make it a point to find something wrong; this time, it was a cloth that someone had draped over an oven handle.

So I'm worried about these guys coming in and finding about-to-be-used pizza pans with baked-on cheese crust stuck to the sides from a previously-baked pizza.  No problem with an "ordinary" pizza pan; we could just scrub the pans out with soap and water and maybe even some steel wool.  But of course, we can't do that with DS pans.

My understanding is that Buddy's just wipes pans out between bakes.  Maybe the Detroit health authorities are less strict, but my sense is that the pizzas come out "clean," that the only residue in the pan after the pizza is removed is oil that can be wiped out with a cloth.  But with my pizzas, I've always had a thin layer of crust at least somewhere in the pan that I had to remove with water and a nylon scrubber.

Norma runs a commercial operation, so if you're reading this, Norma, perhaps you could tell me how you treat your pans between bakes?  Are they clean enough that you just need to wipe out the oil, or do you need to deal with crust residue and if yes, how?  If there is any crust residue, do you remove all traces of residue between bakes or just get the pans "reasonably" clean during business hours and save a more complete cleaning for the end of the day?

Of course, I would appreciate any thoughts/experiences anyone else has cares to share on (1) what oil/fat they use in their pans, (2) the condition of the pans immediately after removing a pizza and (3) how - and how thoroughly - they clean the pans when they plan to cook another one in the same pan, right away, especially in a commercial setting.

Thanks!

Gene

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #539 on: April 01, 2013, 12:31:13 PM »
Gene,

Just my 2 cents, (and I agree with everyone who hates non-stick surfaces --- I hate them too!) but ever since switching over to these Calphalon non-stick pans I got on the cheap at TJMaxx, my problem is exactly the opposite! That is to say that the dough/cheese won't stick enough to the pan edges, which becomes a problem if you want good cheese caramelization. Its been an even bigger problem recently since I've been doing a 1-2 min pre-bake of the dough (trying to get an airier crumb structure before the topping weigh the dough down)

As I said, this info is posted as an FYI --- it may have no bearing on your needs. :)

John K
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Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #540 on: April 01, 2013, 02:09:50 PM »
Gene,

Just my 2 cents, (and I agree with everyone who hates non-stick surfaces --- I hate them too!) but ever since switching over to these Calphalon non-stick pans I got on the cheap at TJMaxx, my problem is exactly the opposite! That is to say that the dough/cheese won't stick enough to the pan edges, which becomes a problem if you want good cheese caramelization. Its been an even bigger problem recently since I've been doing a 1-2 min pre-bake of the dough (trying to get an airier crumb structure before the topping weigh the dough down)

As I said, this info is posted as an FYI --- it may have no bearing on your needs. :)

John K

Thanks, maybe I'll give the Calphalon pan a try.  I live in NYC.  Do all the TJ Maxx's have these pans?

Gene

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #541 on: April 01, 2013, 02:26:46 PM »
Gene,

Not sure, but I'll bet they are commonly availabale. PM your address to me and I'll send you one of the ones I got! Free! :D

John K
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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #542 on: April 01, 2013, 07:03:10 PM »
My pizzas are starting to come out okay, but I'm still having a problem with cheese sticking to the sides of the pan.  Last time, on another poster's advice, I tried a solid fat, butter-flavored Crisco, but still had a problem.

Even then, for home, I'm okay, but I'm thinking of the cafe my partners and I are contemplating.  In NYC, where I am, the Health Dept. is really strict.  One of my restaurant-operator customers told me the other day that the Health Dept. had popped in for one of their spot inspections, a couple of days before.  They only come when the restaurant is open and serving customers (which really disrupts their workflow), and they almost always find something wrong.  My customer and I suspect that these inspections are the restaurant equivalent of a speed trap, designed not so much to ensure healthful operations as to raise money for City coffers, so they make it a point to find something wrong; this time, it was a cloth that someone had draped over an oven handle.

So I'm worried about these guys coming in and finding about-to-be-used pizza pans with baked-on cheese crust stuck to the sides from a previously-baked pizza.  No problem with an "ordinary" pizza pan; we could just scrub the pans out with soap and water and maybe even some steel wool.  But of course, we can't do that with DS pans.

My understanding is that Buddy's just wipes pans out between bakes.  Maybe the Detroit health authorities are less strict, but my sense is that the pizzas come out "clean," that the only residue in the pan after the pizza is removed is oil that can be wiped out with a cloth.  But with my pizzas, I've always had a thin layer of crust at least somewhere in the pan that I had to remove with water and a nylon scrubber.

Norma runs a commercial operation, so if you're reading this, Norma, perhaps you could tell me how you treat your pans between bakes?  Are they clean enough that you just need to wipe out the oil, or do you need to deal with crust residue and if yes, how?  If there is any crust residue, do you remove all traces of residue between bakes or just get the pans "reasonably" clean during business hours and save a more complete cleaning for the end of the day?

Of course, I would appreciate any thoughts/experiences anyone else has cares to share on (1) what oil/fat they use in their pans, (2) the condition of the pans immediately after removing a pizza and (3) how - and how thoroughly - they clean the pans when they plan to cook another one in the same pan, right away, especially in a commercial setting.

Thanks!

Gene

Gene,

The steel pans I use are all seasoned well now and I donít have sticking issues when removing the Detroit style pizzas from the steel pans (this took awhile for that to happen), but yes there is still caked on residue left in the steel pans and some caramelized cheese still gets stuck on the sides and in the corners, but the pizzas can be removed fairly easy after a thin metal spatula is taken around all the edges.  After a few pans are accumulated from baking pizza in them (dirty ones), I do use paper towels to remove what residue I can.  I do wipe them with paper towels again before I grease them with shortening before placing another dough ball in the steel pans.  If you want to take pictures of what my steel pans look like after the bake and before I grease again I can take those photos.

When I go to market on Mondays the pans are wiped out again with paper towels before they are greased. 

I donít know about your food inspectors in NYC, but in Pa. (our food inspectors are strict too) if I have a question to see what the food inspectors allow, I can always call and asked if something is allowed. 

I also have the same problems like in NYC, that inspectors do pop in and just start inspecting no matter how busy you are.  I try to keep things neat, but that isnít always possible, but I do try to adhere to keeping my washing rags in the containers that are meant for that.  I did get a violation this year for not having enough bleach in those containers.  When you are wiping stuff down all the time it is hard to keep the solution at the right level.  One wipe of something and the solution might be okay, and after the next wipe, the solution might be off.  It is all what you have to deal with when running a commercial food business though.

Norma

Offline balthisar

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #543 on: April 02, 2013, 09:54:34 PM »
I just want to mention that the cheese eventually stops sticking to the pan. Clearly there's nothing wrong with dried, old cheese that goes into a 500+ degree oven, but health inspectors in some jurisdictions might not agree.

Lots of references to Shawn Randazzo up-thread. I enjoy his enthusiasm, and having read a Free Press article today, discovered this: http://detroitstylepizza.com/become-a-certified-detroit-style-pizza-maker/

Again, I admire his passion, but I'm having trouble coming to grips with his "official" certification program. Given that he started at Cloverleaf (even better than Buddy's in my humble opinion!), can we now say that Buddy's, Cloverleaf , et al aren't officially certified? OR my own delicious pies for that matter?

Someone mentioned being able to email Shawn. Any way to find out more?

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #544 on: April 06, 2013, 01:05:38 AM »
Gene,

Not sure, but I'll bet they are commonly availabale. PM your address to me and I'll send you one of the ones I got! Free! :D

John K

John,

That's very generous.  Thanks!

Uh... what does "PM" mean?

Gene

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #545 on: April 06, 2013, 01:10:43 AM »
Gene,

The steel pans I use are all seasoned well now and I donít have sticking issues when removing the Detroit style pizzas from the steel pans (this took awhile for that to happen), but yes there is still caked on residue left in the steel pans and some caramelized cheese still gets stuck on the sides and in the corners, but the pizzas can be removed fairly easy after a thin metal spatula is taken around all the edges.  After a few pans are accumulated from baking pizza in them (dirty ones), I do use paper towels to remove what residue I can.  I do wipe them with paper towels again before I grease them with shortening before placing another dough ball in the steel pans.  If you want to take pictures of what my steel pans look like after the bake and before I grease again I can take those photos.

When I go to market on Mondays the pans are wiped out again with paper towels before they are greased. 

I donít know about your food inspectors in NYC, but in Pa. (our food inspectors are strict too) if I have a question to see what the food inspectors allow, I can always call and asked if something is allowed. 

I also have the same problems like in NYC, that inspectors do pop in and just start inspecting no matter how busy you are.  I try to keep things neat, but that isnít always possible, but I do try to adhere to keeping my washing rags in the containers that are meant for that.  I did get a violation this year for not having enough bleach in those containers.  When you are wiping stuff down all the time it is hard to keep the solution at the right level.  One wipe of something and the solution might be okay, and after the next wipe, the solution might be off.  It is all what you have to deal with when running a commercial food business though.

Norma

I'll probably have to bake a pizza in one of my customer/partners' commercial kitchen and after I remove the pie, let them show me how clean I need to get it.

Thanks, everyone, for your comments and advice.

Gene

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #546 on: April 06, 2013, 07:10:17 AM »
John,

That's very generous.  Thanks!

Uh... what does "PM" mean?

Gene

Gene,

Check you mailbox for a "PM" (personal message) from me.

John K
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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #547 on: April 06, 2013, 08:00:55 AM »

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #548 on: April 12, 2013, 04:05:50 PM »
Gene,

My lovely bride has promised to stick this in the mail on Monday.....when she mails the taxes :'(

John K

PS: Addresses withheld to keep away all the fans! :D
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Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #549 on: April 12, 2013, 11:46:27 PM »
Gene,

My lovely bride has promised to stick this in the mail on Monday.....when she mails the taxes :'(

John K

PS: Addresses withheld to keep away all the fans! :D

John,

I really don't know how to thank you.  Are you sure you wouldn't like me to send you some money?  You must not have much left after paying your taxes!

Gene


 

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