"Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's

[gschwim]

Gene,

To add to my last post, a few months ago, a member at the PMQ Think Tank, himself a skilled professional, mentioned that he saw Shawn's dough and that it was one step above a batter and proofed for a long time. See http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656&hilit=#p84302. Sometimes with a wet dough it is hard to get adequate bottom crust browning while baking everything on top of the dough without extending the normal bake time or using more oil in the pan to "fry" the bottom crust. It will be interesting to see what Shawn says should he decide to answer, but possibly he "decks" the pizza as a way of finishing the bake within the desired time and without having to resort to using more oil in the pan.

Also, the fact that the stone is porous does not mean that it absorbs moisture from the dough, as is commonly believed. It is the heat in the stone that finishes the bake. There are many pizza operators who start pizzas on screens or disks and then "deck" them onto the oven's stone surface toward the end of the bake to get more bottom crust browning.

Peter

Peter,

Interesting comment re Shawn's dough, because that's exactly what I was thinking:  as close to a batter a possible.  Ideally, I would love to be able almost to pour it into the pan.  Which is why I was looking at ciabatta recipes and ciabatta-making videos, such as this one (

That's alotta Ciabatta! Start to Finish.

), where a woman is making a ciabatta from a dough with a 98%(!) hydration.  (Here is a link to a printed version of the recipe she used: 

That's alotta Ciabatta! Start to Finish.

).

I actually tried something similar, once, in a cast iron frying pan, on my stove top.  The dough puffed up, like a marshmallow - so I'm wondering if, rather than the weight of ingredients on top squashing the dough down, the ingredients on top might be necessary to keep the dough from puffing up.

I find that if I use a lot of oil on the bottom of the pan, it's hard to spread the dough out, but with a very wet dough, that probably would not be a problem.  Indeed, with ciabatta, baked outside the confines of a pan, the object seems to keep the dough from spreading out.

UPDATE:  Someone actually did use the ciabatta recipe (but halving the ingredients) to make a traditional round pizza (and referred to it on this site, by the way).  Here's a link to the Web page describing the process, which is a bit different from the ciabatta process, with photos:  http://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza

I suppose you could (should?) cross-post this recipe to another thread, but I think it's also appropriate here, because I'm going to try the recipe tonight, to make a Buddy's pizza.

NOTE ALSO, the warning in the video:  One needs to keep an eye on the dough while it's mixing.  Because it's so wet, it has a greater-than-usual tendency to "crawl" up the paddle/hook, all the way into the mixer's innards.  And, per the woman in the video, it may be necessary, during the high-speed mixing phase, physically to lean on the mixer, to stop it from "walking" across the counter.

Gene

[gschwim]

Just made my first Detroit style pizza using the recipe and method I mentioned above, in Reply 522: https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza

First of all, definitely stay near the mixer, at least after the first couple of minutes.  I had to hold mine down to keep it from "walking" off the edge of the counter.

As for the dough, I let it triple in size, per the instructions and after I put it in the pan, I let it rest for ten minutes.  The dough, right after rising, is very big and "poofy"; when you scrape it out of the container, it deflates, but reinflates during the rest period.  And after baking, the dough is very light and airy.  Very good and, interestingly, light - I didn't feel stuffed after eating four slices.  I also oiled the pan by brushing on melted clarified butter; that idea worked well, too.

But the main thing, of course, is the dough.  I would love someone else to try the recipe and let me know what he thinks.

Mixing the mozzarella and cheddar together and spreading the mixture all the way across worked well, I thought.  Cheese still sticking to the sides of the pan, though.  I hope I'll have better luck with the pans I just ordered from Detroit Style Pizza Company.

Another problem:  Even with preheating my oven to 525 degrees and setting the pan on a pizza stone, the dough is not "frying," even after 12 minutes, and the cheese is browned, making me wary of baking it any longer.  I would appreciate any thoughts anyone cares to share on how to get a crispy bottom crust in a home oven without burning the cheese on top.

It just occurred to me:  Maybe the high hydration is preventing the bottom from getting crisp.  After all, the cracker-style pizza, I believe, uses a very low hydration; I understand that some people have even used the recipe for matzo dough to make cracker style pizzas.  It also would explain why Shawn Randazzo put his pie directly on the oven floor in his video:  As Pete mentioned, someone watching Randazzo make a pie said that Randazzo's dough was "almost a batter."  So maybe a high-hydration dough requires a finish on the oven surface to crisp the bottom?

Only one way to find out for sure:  Next weekend, when I experiment again, I'll try taking the pie out of the pan after, say, six minutes and let it cook the rest of the way directly on a pizza stone.  Because the sauce goes on after the bake, there should be no mess.

Gene

[norma427]

Gene,

If you or anyone else is interested what Shawn Randazzo has been up to lately and where that video you referenced at Reply 488 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg237778.html#msg237778 might have come from you might be interested in what I posted at Reply 1525 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg238677.html#msg238677

Norma

[gschwim]

Gene,

I am wondering about trying a higher hydration than 75% for a Detroit style pizza..  I have tried doughs with a higher hydration than 75% on the Pizzarium thread and on another Sicilain thread and for me there are hard to manage in terms of how to mix the dough and also how to keep the crumb from falling in the bake.  

I had few successes, but more failures than successes.  If you plan to use less salt than PizzaHog used I would think you might have more problems, but wish you the best of success with your methods and what you plan to do.  Let us know how it works out.  You never know how something will turn out until you actually try it yourself.

Norma

I'm actually thinking of trying an experiment in the other direction, say 65% hydration.  Though I have no research on the subject, I just have a sense that Buddy's, at least when I lived in Detroit, did not use a high hydration dough.

Gene

[norma427]

Gene,

Since you posted you might want to try 65% hydration for a Buddy’s pizza you might want to look at this thread started by Britt (Skee) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.0.html

Peter’s summary on what the differences are for a Buddy’s and Jet’s pizza are at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.msg238665.html#msg238665

I didn’t think that the Buddy’s pizza I purchased and was sent to me was that high in hydration either, but then I didn’t taste it right out of the oven and I also did a fairly long second bake.

Norma

[gschwim]

Gene,

Since you posted you might want to try 65% hydration for a Buddy’s pizza you might want to look at this thread started by Britt (Skee) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.0.html

Peter’s summary on what the differences are for a Buddy’s and Jet’s pizza are at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.msg238665.html#msg238665

I didn’t think that the Buddy’s pizza I purchased and was sent to me was that high in hydration either, but then I didn’t taste it right out of the oven and I also did a fairly long second bake.

Norma

I mainly want to see if the lower hydration would make the dough crisp better on the bottom.  Trust me, even if the "65% experiment" isn't a success, I will still eat the result...  :^)

Gene

[Pete-zza]

Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE</a>

that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter

[norma427]

I mainly want to see if the lower hydration would make the dough crisp better on the bottom.  Trust me, even if the "65% experiment" isn't a success, I will still eat the result...  :^)

Gene

Gene,

I really don't think the dough will crisp better on the bottom based on my first experiments for a Jet's pizza, but would be interested if you tried a lower hydration what results you would get.  If interested see the next post to Peter.

Norma

[gschwim]

Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter

Peter,

By coincidence, a uniformed agent of the federal government just delivered my preseasoned pans from the Detroit Style Pizza Co., with the Norma Seal of Approval stamped right on the box...  :^)  They look a lot like the "raw" pan I seasoned yesterday with another method I am trying, so now I can compare and if my pan works as well, I'll share the method I used and everyone can save some money.

I watched the video and agree with you:  Judging by the dough balls' height, that definitely is not a high-hydration dough.  Below is a photo of my own dough with a 70-75% hydration.  (I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure that it's 70%.)  As you can see, especially with the dough ball on the right, the dough, unconfined to a small container, spreads out quite a bit, much more than the Jet's dough balls.

I made a note to try a 65% hydration over the weekend; depending on the result, maybe I'll even try 60%, just to see how far I can go.

Gene

[norma427]

Gene,

Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter

Peter,

In the video of the Jet’s pizza the dough does look to be about 65% hydration, at least to me.  There doesn’t look like there is any stickness to the dough or to the employees fingers.  The dough does look soft though.

Tommy Nott posted a side view of a slice of a real Jet’s pizza at Reply 141 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg162104.html#msg162104  It can be seen what height that slice was.  If Gene is interested he can see the Jet’s attempt I made at Reply 144 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg162459.html#msg162459  and the crumb photos and baked height also can be seen if you go down more in the pictures.  Gene can also see segfault Jet’s pizza at Reply 156 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg164019.html#msg164019  For me the differences in a Jet’s pizza is the caramelized edges and how soft the Buddy’s is to eat.  Jet’s doesn’t pile the cheese on the edges like Buddy’s does.  Tommy Nott also posted more pictures of a Jet’s pizza at Reply 122 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg158444.html#msg158444

If Gene goes back to the other Jet’s pizzas I made he can see that my bottom crust didn’t brown well.  Maybe it was my steel pans that weren’t seasoned enough or something else I did wrong.

Norma

[Serpentelli]

I talked my wife through PizzaHog's DS dough recipe at lunch today and she pressed the dough into these Calphalon Non-Stick pans I bought at TJ Maxx for $8.99. While I typically abhor non-stick cookware, for the purpose of DS pies they are "DA BOMB". Pizzas slide out with one finger onto the cooling rack.

John K

[Serpentelli]

The crust cooked up very nicely!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22PJBzeGeJI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22PJBzeGeJI</a>

John K

[Pete-zza]

John K,

Very nice job with the DS pizzas.

Did you and your wife follow PizzaHog's recipe exactly, including the size of the pans?

Peter

[norma427]

John,

I agree, very nice job with the Detroit style pizzas.  I guess you are now hooked too.   

Norma

[Serpentelli]

John K,

Very nice job with the DS pizzas.

Did you and your wife follow PizzaHog's recipe exactly, including the size of the pans?

Peter

Peter,

Followed percentages exactly.
Flour = KAAP 500g
Water = 375g
IDY = 3g
Salt = 7g

Pans are 9 x 13

500F for about 18 mins total

John K

[Serpentelli]

John,

I agree, very nice job with the Detroit style pizzas.  I guess you are now hooked too.   

Norma

Hooked indeed! 

John K

[Serpentelli]

Peter,

Sorry for the fragmented response. That recipe made 2 balls.

John K

[redox]

There's an article in the Detroit Free Press today about DS pizza with a video showing Shawn Randazzo talking about the style.
http://tinyurl.com/Detroit-Style-Pizza

I still can't get that nice caramelized cheese around the outside, though.

[gschwim]

My pizzas are starting to come out okay, but I'm still having a problem with cheese sticking to the sides of the pan.  Last time, on another poster's advice, I tried a solid fat, butter-flavored Crisco, but still had a problem.

Even then, for home, I'm okay, but I'm thinking of the cafe my partners and I are contemplating.  In NYC, where I am, the Health Dept. is really strict.  One of my restaurant-operator customers told me the other day that the Health Dept. had popped in for one of their spot inspections, a couple of days before.  They only come when the restaurant is open and serving customers (which really disrupts their workflow), and they almost always find something wrong.  My customer and I suspect that these inspections are the restaurant equivalent of a speed trap, designed not so much to ensure healthful operations as to raise money for City coffers, so they make it a point to find something wrong; this time, it was a cloth that someone had draped over an oven handle.

So I'm worried about these guys coming in and finding about-to-be-used pizza pans with baked-on cheese crust stuck to the sides from a previously-baked pizza.  No problem with an "ordinary" pizza pan; we could just scrub the pans out with soap and water and maybe even some steel wool.  But of course, we can't do that with DS pans.

My understanding is that Buddy's just wipes pans out between bakes.  Maybe the Detroit health authorities are less strict, but my sense is that the pizzas come out "clean," that the only residue in the pan after the pizza is removed is oil that can be wiped out with a cloth.  But with my pizzas, I've always had a thin layer of crust at least somewhere in the pan that I had to remove with water and a nylon scrubber.

Norma runs a commercial operation, so if you're reading this, Norma, perhaps you could tell me how you treat your pans between bakes?  Are they clean enough that you just need to wipe out the oil, or do you need to deal with crust residue and if yes, how?  If there is any crust residue, do you remove all traces of residue between bakes or just get the pans "reasonably" clean during business hours and save a more complete cleaning for the end of the day?

Of course, I would appreciate any thoughts/experiences anyone else has cares to share on (1) what oil/fat they use in their pans, (2) the condition of the pans immediately after removing a pizza and (3) how - and how thoroughly - they clean the pans when they plan to cook another one in the same pan, right away, especially in a commercial setting.

Thanks!

Gene

[Serpentelli]

Gene,

Just my 2 cents, (and I agree with everyone who hates non-stick surfaces --- I hate them too!) but ever since switching over to these Calphalon non-stick pans I got on the cheap at TJMaxx, my problem is exactly the opposite! That is to say that the dough/cheese won't stick enough to the pan edges, which becomes a problem if you want good cheese caramelization. Its been an even bigger problem recently since I've been doing a 1-2 min pre-bake of the dough (trying to get an airier crumb structure before the topping weigh the dough down)

As I said, this info is posted as an FYI --- it may have no bearing on your needs.

John K