Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 161599 times)

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Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #540 on: April 01, 2013, 02:09:50 PM »
Gene,

Just my 2 cents, (and I agree with everyone who hates non-stick surfaces --- I hate them too!) but ever since switching over to these Calphalon non-stick pans I got on the cheap at TJMaxx, my problem is exactly the opposite! That is to say that the dough/cheese won't stick enough to the pan edges, which becomes a problem if you want good cheese caramelization. Its been an even bigger problem recently since I've been doing a 1-2 min pre-bake of the dough (trying to get an airier crumb structure before the topping weigh the dough down)

As I said, this info is posted as an FYI --- it may have no bearing on your needs. :)

John K

Thanks, maybe I'll give the Calphalon pan a try.  I live in NYC.  Do all the TJ Maxx's have these pans?

Gene


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #541 on: April 01, 2013, 02:26:46 PM »
Gene,

Not sure, but I'll bet they are commonly availabale. PM your address to me and I'll send you one of the ones I got! Free! :D

John K

Offline norma427

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #542 on: April 01, 2013, 07:03:10 PM »
My pizzas are starting to come out okay, but I'm still having a problem with cheese sticking to the sides of the pan.  Last time, on another poster's advice, I tried a solid fat, butter-flavored Crisco, but still had a problem.

Even then, for home, I'm okay, but I'm thinking of the cafe my partners and I are contemplating.  In NYC, where I am, the Health Dept. is really strict.  One of my restaurant-operator customers told me the other day that the Health Dept. had popped in for one of their spot inspections, a couple of days before.  They only come when the restaurant is open and serving customers (which really disrupts their workflow), and they almost always find something wrong.  My customer and I suspect that these inspections are the restaurant equivalent of a speed trap, designed not so much to ensure healthful operations as to raise money for City coffers, so they make it a point to find something wrong; this time, it was a cloth that someone had draped over an oven handle.

So I'm worried about these guys coming in and finding about-to-be-used pizza pans with baked-on cheese crust stuck to the sides from a previously-baked pizza.  No problem with an "ordinary" pizza pan; we could just scrub the pans out with soap and water and maybe even some steel wool.  But of course, we can't do that with DS pans.

My understanding is that Buddy's just wipes pans out between bakes.  Maybe the Detroit health authorities are less strict, but my sense is that the pizzas come out "clean," that the only residue in the pan after the pizza is removed is oil that can be wiped out with a cloth.  But with my pizzas, I've always had a thin layer of crust at least somewhere in the pan that I had to remove with water and a nylon scrubber.

Norma runs a commercial operation, so if you're reading this, Norma, perhaps you could tell me how you treat your pans between bakes?  Are they clean enough that you just need to wipe out the oil, or do you need to deal with crust residue and if yes, how?  If there is any crust residue, do you remove all traces of residue between bakes or just get the pans "reasonably" clean during business hours and save a more complete cleaning for the end of the day?

Of course, I would appreciate any thoughts/experiences anyone else has cares to share on (1) what oil/fat they use in their pans, (2) the condition of the pans immediately after removing a pizza and (3) how - and how thoroughly - they clean the pans when they plan to cook another one in the same pan, right away, especially in a commercial setting.

Thanks!

Gene

Gene,

The steel pans I use are all seasoned well now and I donít have sticking issues when removing the Detroit style pizzas from the steel pans (this took awhile for that to happen), but yes there is still caked on residue left in the steel pans and some caramelized cheese still gets stuck on the sides and in the corners, but the pizzas can be removed fairly easy after a thin metal spatula is taken around all the edges.  After a few pans are accumulated from baking pizza in them (dirty ones), I do use paper towels to remove what residue I can.  I do wipe them with paper towels again before I grease them with shortening before placing another dough ball in the steel pans.  If you want to take pictures of what my steel pans look like after the bake and before I grease again I can take those photos.

When I go to market on Mondays the pans are wiped out again with paper towels before they are greased. 

I donít know about your food inspectors in NYC, but in Pa. (our food inspectors are strict too) if I have a question to see what the food inspectors allow, I can always call and asked if something is allowed. 

I also have the same problems like in NYC, that inspectors do pop in and just start inspecting no matter how busy you are.  I try to keep things neat, but that isnít always possible, but I do try to adhere to keeping my washing rags in the containers that are meant for that.  I did get a violation this year for not having enough bleach in those containers.  When you are wiping stuff down all the time it is hard to keep the solution at the right level.  One wipe of something and the solution might be okay, and after the next wipe, the solution might be off.  It is all what you have to deal with when running a commercial food business though.

Norma
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Offline balthisar

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #543 on: April 02, 2013, 09:54:34 PM »
I just want to mention that the cheese eventually stops sticking to the pan. Clearly there's nothing wrong with dried, old cheese that goes into a 500+ degree oven, but health inspectors in some jurisdictions might not agree.

Lots of references to Shawn Randazzo up-thread. I enjoy his enthusiasm, and having read a Free Press article today, discovered this: http://detroitstylepizza.com/become-a-certified-detroit-style-pizza-maker/

Again, I admire his passion, but I'm having trouble coming to grips with his "official" certification program. Given that he started at Cloverleaf (even better than Buddy's in my humble opinion!), can we now say that Buddy's, Cloverleaf , et al aren't officially certified? OR my own delicious pies for that matter?

Someone mentioned being able to email Shawn. Any way to find out more?

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #544 on: April 06, 2013, 01:05:38 AM »
Gene,

Not sure, but I'll bet they are commonly availabale. PM your address to me and I'll send you one of the ones I got! Free! :D

John K

John,

That's very generous.  Thanks!

Uh... what does "PM" mean?

Gene

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #545 on: April 06, 2013, 01:10:43 AM »
Gene,

The steel pans I use are all seasoned well now and I donít have sticking issues when removing the Detroit style pizzas from the steel pans (this took awhile for that to happen), but yes there is still caked on residue left in the steel pans and some caramelized cheese still gets stuck on the sides and in the corners, but the pizzas can be removed fairly easy after a thin metal spatula is taken around all the edges.  After a few pans are accumulated from baking pizza in them (dirty ones), I do use paper towels to remove what residue I can.  I do wipe them with paper towels again before I grease them with shortening before placing another dough ball in the steel pans.  If you want to take pictures of what my steel pans look like after the bake and before I grease again I can take those photos.

When I go to market on Mondays the pans are wiped out again with paper towels before they are greased. 

I donít know about your food inspectors in NYC, but in Pa. (our food inspectors are strict too) if I have a question to see what the food inspectors allow, I can always call and asked if something is allowed. 

I also have the same problems like in NYC, that inspectors do pop in and just start inspecting no matter how busy you are.  I try to keep things neat, but that isnít always possible, but I do try to adhere to keeping my washing rags in the containers that are meant for that.  I did get a violation this year for not having enough bleach in those containers.  When you are wiping stuff down all the time it is hard to keep the solution at the right level.  One wipe of something and the solution might be okay, and after the next wipe, the solution might be off.  It is all what you have to deal with when running a commercial food business though.

Norma

I'll probably have to bake a pizza in one of my customer/partners' commercial kitchen and after I remove the pie, let them show me how clean I need to get it.

Thanks, everyone, for your comments and advice.

Gene

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #546 on: April 06, 2013, 07:10:17 AM »
John,

That's very generous.  Thanks!

Uh... what does "PM" mean?

Gene

Gene,

Check you mailbox for a "PM" (personal message) from me.

John K

Online Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #547 on: April 06, 2013, 08:00:55 AM »

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #548 on: April 12, 2013, 04:05:50 PM »
Gene,

My lovely bride has promised to stick this in the mail on Monday.....when she mails the taxes :'(

John K

PS: Addresses withheld to keep away all the fans! :D

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #549 on: April 12, 2013, 11:46:27 PM »
Gene,

My lovely bride has promised to stick this in the mail on Monday.....when she mails the taxes :'(

John K

PS: Addresses withheld to keep away all the fans! :D

John,

I really don't know how to thank you.  Are you sure you wouldn't like me to send you some money?  You must not have much left after paying your taxes!

Gene


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #550 on: April 13, 2013, 12:03:54 AM »
Just sharing the love, Gene!

You can buy me a slice of your favorite NY pie the next time I'm in NYC! :drool:

John K

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #551 on: April 13, 2013, 05:10:29 PM »
Just sharing the love, Gene!

You can buy me a slice of your favorite NY pie the next time I'm in NYC! :drool:

John K


Will do!  Hope you like coal oven thin crust.  One of my favorite NYC pizzerias, not just for the pizza, but the atmosphere, is Angelo's on E. 57th St.:  http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/angelos-coal-oven-pizzeria-new-york?select=DXDBOkTMK-gtSOrm5Mrcpw#DXDBOkTMK-gtSOrm5Mrcpw

And you can have more than one slice.

Gene

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #552 on: April 13, 2013, 05:22:06 PM »
Norma,

As promised, attached are photos of my first try at baking longer, at a lower temperature - 25 minutes at 375 degrees, to be precise.

As you can see, the pizza came out a bit undercooked, so next time, I'm going to try 400 degrees and if that still doesn't work, then 425, and maybe I'll cover the pie with a piece of foil until near the end if I see that the cheese is starting to burn.

Also, I baked the pie directly on the middle rack in my home oven; maybe I'll try putting the pan on a pizza stone, next time.

The pizza still tasted pretty good and the crumb was light and airy, but the bottom was not as crisp as I would have liked it to be.  You'll also notice how, when I slid the pie out of the pan, the cheese on top slopped over the edge.

On the positive side, the problem I was having, with cheese sticking to the side of the pan, pretty much vanished.  For the first time, I was able to clean the pan out with a paper towel.  So I'm guessing that the high temperature (500 degrees) that I had been using was "burning off" the oil (or in my case, butter-flavored Crisco) and "fusing" the cheese to the metal.

So I'm hoping that I can find a combination of temperature and cooking time that will bake the pie within a reasonable amount of time, make the bottom crispy and not cause the problem of cheese sticking to the sides.

Gene

Offline shuboyje

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #553 on: April 13, 2013, 05:40:12 PM »
I did and untopped test to see how my seasoning was going at 450F for 25 minutes and the result was perfect for my taste.  Crisp and evenly brown.  Reminded me a lot of cloverleaf which is what I'm after for the underside. 
-Jeff

Offline norma427

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #554 on: April 13, 2013, 07:42:43 PM »
Norma,

As promised, attached are photos of my first try at baking longer, at a lower temperature - 25 minutes at 375 degrees, to be precise.

As you can see, the pizza came out a bit undercooked, so next time, I'm going to try 400 degrees and if that still doesn't work, then 425, and maybe I'll cover the pie with a piece of foil until near the end if I see that the cheese is starting to burn.

Also, I baked the pie directly on the middle rack in my home oven; maybe I'll try putting the pan on a pizza stone, next time.

The pizza still tasted pretty good and the crumb was light and airy, but the bottom was not as crisp as I would have liked it to be.  You'll also notice how, when I slid the pie out of the pan, the cheese on top slopped over the edge.

On the positive side, the problem I was having, with cheese sticking to the side of the pan, pretty much vanished.  For the first time, I was able to clean the pan out with a paper towel.  So I'm guessing that the high temperature (500 degrees) that I had been using was "burning off" the oil (or in my case, butter-flavored Crisco) and "fusing" the cheese to the metal.

So I'm hoping that I can find a combination of temperature and cooking time that will bake the pie within a reasonable amount of time, make the bottom crispy and not cause the problem of cheese sticking to the sides.

Gene

Gene,

Thanks for posting your results when baking longer at a lower temperature.  Your pizza does look tasty!

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #555 on: April 13, 2013, 11:14:13 PM »
Gene,

Thanks for posting your results when baking longer at a lower temperature.  Your pizza does look tasty!

Norma

Thanks, Norma - but I think your pizzas look better!  I'm glad you think my pizza looks good, but it definitely was undercooked; I think the reason the cheese slopped over where it did was because the edge-cheese didn't bake enough to form a solid "border" and the cheese just pushed through it.

Also, note how I'm holding the slice in the last photo.  That's because if I held it from one end, the whole thing would droop over because the bottom didn't bake enough.  In fact, even holding the slice the way I was, it was hard to keep it from folding and falling into the palm of my hand. 

I was going to try 25 minutes at 425 next, but I think I'll try shuboyje's idea, on the post just ahead of yours:  25 minutes at 450, since he's so happy with his results.

Gene
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 11:17:51 PM by gschwim »

Offline norma427

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #556 on: April 14, 2013, 07:41:39 AM »


I was going to try 25 minutes at 425 next, but I think I'll try shuboyje's idea, on the post just ahead of yours:  25 minutes at 450, since he's so happy with his results.

Gene

Gene,

I think Jeffís idea is good to bake at 25 minutes at 425 degrees F.  You might want to watch your pizza though because different ovens do bake differently.

I am interested when Jeff posts more about his bakes of his Detroit style pizzas with a lower temperature to try and make a Cloverleaf pizza.  It shows how I really donít know much about different Detroit style pizzas.  I thought all of them were basically the same, but since Jeff has tasted different Detroit style pizzas from different pizza businesses he sure knows how they are.

Norma
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Offline G671

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #557 on: April 14, 2013, 09:31:07 PM »
Hello everyone.  First time posting here. Thanks to everyone for the great info. I've been having very good results at home. 

Just wanted to talk about "cheese" in trying to replicate Buddy's.. I've heard that they use white cheddar (which I've used. Tastes great, but a bit too salty when used too much), and I've recently used brick cheese, which definitely had a much smoother flavor.  So, I guess my question is, what is the correct ratio of these cheeses?  Does Buddy's use only brick cheese on their pizza? Do they actually use white cheddar at all?  And, do they mix these with mozzarella at all?  Most recently, I just used brick cheese, with some white cheddar for the edges of the pan.  Just wondering if I need to throw mozzarella in there.

Here's an older pic of one of my earlier pizza attempts. I used the Detroit pan from Detroit Pizza Co.  I think it was all white cheddar on this one, mixed with mozzarella (about 50/50).   I don't make my own dough. I like to keep it simple in the kitchen (I'm a guy) LOL  I've been using Pillsbury pizza crust in the tube (the "Artisan" whole grain one).  I have found that it unrolls PERFECTLY, and fits the pan perfectly, right out of the tube. No fuss.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 09:44:04 PM by G671 »

Offline JetBoy

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #558 on: April 26, 2013, 01:37:34 AM »
Howdy everybody!  I just signed up to the site officially, but I've been glued to this thread for about the last week. I'm up to page 25 right now and I'll have it all wrapped up tomorrow.

I used to run 2 Jet's pizza's in the 90's before there were hundreds of them.

I'm an East sider and I also worked at Mama Rosa's Pizzeria on Mack Ave. near Alter Rd where I strictly made the dough. Up to 10 batches a night on Friday's and Saturday's using a huge Hobart mixing machine.

Thanks for all the awesome info you've already provided on Buddy's pizza. I love it. Shield's is a close second in my opinion. Green Lantern would be my 3rd favorite.

It's been a little while since I've been making pies, but it feels like it was just yesterday.
I can't wait to try these pies out and hopefully I'll have something to add.

Offline JetBoy

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #559 on: April 26, 2013, 03:22:20 AM »
Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter


Jet's has a separate recipe for their round pizza dough and their square pizza dough. The one's pictured in the video are the round dough balls. This explains the hydration level looking around 65%


 

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