Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 198792 times)

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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #550 on: April 13, 2013, 12:03:54 AM »
Just sharing the love, Gene!

You can buy me a slice of your favorite NY pie the next time I'm in NYC! :drool:

John K
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Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #551 on: April 13, 2013, 05:10:29 PM »
Just sharing the love, Gene!

You can buy me a slice of your favorite NY pie the next time I'm in NYC! :drool:

John K

Will do!  Hope you like coal oven thin crust.  One of my favorite NYC pizzerias, not just for the pizza, but the atmosphere, is Angelo's on E. 57th St.:  http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/angelos-coal-oven-pizzeria-new-york?select=DXDBOkTMK-gtSOrm5Mrcpw#DXDBOkTMK-gtSOrm5Mrcpw

And you can have more than one slice.

Gene

Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #552 on: April 13, 2013, 05:22:06 PM »
Norma,

As promised, attached are photos of my first try at baking longer, at a lower temperature - 25 minutes at 375 degrees, to be precise.

As you can see, the pizza came out a bit undercooked, so next time, I'm going to try 400 degrees and if that still doesn't work, then 425, and maybe I'll cover the pie with a piece of foil until near the end if I see that the cheese is starting to burn.

Also, I baked the pie directly on the middle rack in my home oven; maybe I'll try putting the pan on a pizza stone, next time.

The pizza still tasted pretty good and the crumb was light and airy, but the bottom was not as crisp as I would have liked it to be.  You'll also notice how, when I slid the pie out of the pan, the cheese on top slopped over the edge.

On the positive side, the problem I was having, with cheese sticking to the side of the pan, pretty much vanished.  For the first time, I was able to clean the pan out with a paper towel.  So I'm guessing that the high temperature (500 degrees) that I had been using was "burning off" the oil (or in my case, butter-flavored Crisco) and "fusing" the cheese to the metal.

So I'm hoping that I can find a combination of temperature and cooking time that will bake the pie within a reasonable amount of time, make the bottom crispy and not cause the problem of cheese sticking to the sides.

Gene

Offline shuboyje

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #553 on: April 13, 2013, 05:40:12 PM »
I did and untopped test to see how my seasoning was going at 450F for 25 minutes and the result was perfect for my taste.  Crisp and evenly brown.  Reminded me a lot of cloverleaf which is what I'm after for the underside. 
-Jeff

Online norma427

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #554 on: April 13, 2013, 07:42:43 PM »
Norma,

As promised, attached are photos of my first try at baking longer, at a lower temperature - 25 minutes at 375 degrees, to be precise.

As you can see, the pizza came out a bit undercooked, so next time, I'm going to try 400 degrees and if that still doesn't work, then 425, and maybe I'll cover the pie with a piece of foil until near the end if I see that the cheese is starting to burn.

Also, I baked the pie directly on the middle rack in my home oven; maybe I'll try putting the pan on a pizza stone, next time.

The pizza still tasted pretty good and the crumb was light and airy, but the bottom was not as crisp as I would have liked it to be.  You'll also notice how, when I slid the pie out of the pan, the cheese on top slopped over the edge.

On the positive side, the problem I was having, with cheese sticking to the side of the pan, pretty much vanished.  For the first time, I was able to clean the pan out with a paper towel.  So I'm guessing that the high temperature (500 degrees) that I had been using was "burning off" the oil (or in my case, butter-flavored Crisco) and "fusing" the cheese to the metal.

So I'm hoping that I can find a combination of temperature and cooking time that will bake the pie within a reasonable amount of time, make the bottom crispy and not cause the problem of cheese sticking to the sides.

Gene

Gene,

Thanks for posting your results when baking longer at a lower temperature.  Your pizza does look tasty!

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #555 on: April 13, 2013, 11:14:13 PM »
Gene,

Thanks for posting your results when baking longer at a lower temperature.  Your pizza does look tasty!

Norma

Thanks, Norma - but I think your pizzas look better!  I'm glad you think my pizza looks good, but it definitely was undercooked; I think the reason the cheese slopped over where it did was because the edge-cheese didn't bake enough to form a solid "border" and the cheese just pushed through it.

Also, note how I'm holding the slice in the last photo.  That's because if I held it from one end, the whole thing would droop over because the bottom didn't bake enough.  In fact, even holding the slice the way I was, it was hard to keep it from folding and falling into the palm of my hand. 

I was going to try 25 minutes at 425 next, but I think I'll try shuboyje's idea, on the post just ahead of yours:  25 minutes at 450, since he's so happy with his results.

Gene
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 11:17:51 PM by gschwim »

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #556 on: April 14, 2013, 07:41:39 AM »


I was going to try 25 minutes at 425 next, but I think I'll try shuboyje's idea, on the post just ahead of yours:  25 minutes at 450, since he's so happy with his results.

Gene

Gene,

I think Jeff’s idea is good to bake at 25 minutes at 425 degrees F.  You might want to watch your pizza though because different ovens do bake differently.

I am interested when Jeff posts more about his bakes of his Detroit style pizzas with a lower temperature to try and make a Cloverleaf pizza.  It shows how I really don’t know much about different Detroit style pizzas.  I thought all of them were basically the same, but since Jeff has tasted different Detroit style pizzas from different pizza businesses he sure knows how they are.

Norma
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Offline G671

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #557 on: April 14, 2013, 09:31:07 PM »
Hello everyone.  First time posting here. Thanks to everyone for the great info. I've been having very good results at home. 

Just wanted to talk about "cheese" in trying to replicate Buddy's.. I've heard that they use white cheddar (which I've used. Tastes great, but a bit too salty when used too much), and I've recently used brick cheese, which definitely had a much smoother flavor.  So, I guess my question is, what is the correct ratio of these cheeses?  Does Buddy's use only brick cheese on their pizza? Do they actually use white cheddar at all?  And, do they mix these with mozzarella at all?  Most recently, I just used brick cheese, with some white cheddar for the edges of the pan.  Just wondering if I need to throw mozzarella in there.

Here's an older pic of one of my earlier pizza attempts. I used the Detroit pan from Detroit Pizza Co.  I think it was all white cheddar on this one, mixed with mozzarella (about 50/50).   I don't make my own dough. I like to keep it simple in the kitchen (I'm a guy) LOL  I've been using Pillsbury pizza crust in the tube (the "Artisan" whole grain one).  I have found that it unrolls PERFECTLY, and fits the pan perfectly, right out of the tube. No fuss.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 09:44:04 PM by G671 »

Offline JetBoy

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #558 on: April 26, 2013, 01:37:34 AM »
Howdy everybody!  I just signed up to the site officially, but I've been glued to this thread for about the last week. I'm up to page 25 right now and I'll have it all wrapped up tomorrow.

I used to run 2 Jet's pizza's in the 90's before there were hundreds of them.

I'm an East sider and I also worked at Mama Rosa's Pizzeria on Mack Ave. near Alter Rd where I strictly made the dough. Up to 10 batches a night on Friday's and Saturday's using a huge Hobart mixing machine.

Thanks for all the awesome info you've already provided on Buddy's pizza. I love it. Shield's is a close second in my opinion. Green Lantern would be my 3rd favorite.

It's been a little while since I've been making pies, but it feels like it was just yesterday.
I can't wait to try these pies out and hopefully I'll have something to add.


Offline JetBoy

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #559 on: April 26, 2013, 03:22:20 AM »
Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter

Jet's has a separate recipe for their round pizza dough and their square pizza dough. The one's pictured in the video are the round dough balls. This explains the hydration level looking around 65%

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #560 on: April 26, 2013, 06:30:36 AM »
Howdy everybody!  I just signed up to the site officially, but I've been glued to this thread for about the last week. I'm up to page 25 right now and I'll have it all wrapped up tomorrow.
yesterday.
JetBoy,

It's always good to have another member on board who is intimately familiar with the Detroit style pizza. Maybe you have already noticed from this thread, but there is another thread that gets down into the weeds on the Buddy's and other Detroit style pizzas at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.0.html. That thread is only 94 pages long, but the main action starts at around Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219451.html#msg219451 and builds from there.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #561 on: April 26, 2013, 07:52:43 AM »
Jet's has a separate recipe for their round pizza dough and their square pizza dough. The one's pictured in the video are the round dough balls. This explains the hydration level looking around 65%
JetBoy,

I don't want to steer this thread in the direction of Jet's but if you look at the video at about 2:46 you will see the worker taking a bag of flour from a big stack of flour bags with the words "Jet's Square Pizza" on them. I would be very surprised if Jet's uses a hydration of around 65% for its dough for the round pizzas. Most pizza makers, and especially young workers with little experience, would have great difficulty handling skins for a regular style pizza with a 65% hydration, and especially so if the protein level of the flour is below that of high-gluten flour. That hydration makes sense for the square pizzas because the dough is simply placed in pans and spread out.

FYI, there is also a Jet's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg71152.html#msg71152 in case you are interested or want to comment on what is covered there. I also took a stab recently at comparing the Jet's and Buddy's pizzas in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.0.html. You might be able to offer some useful commentary there also if you are so inclined.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 08:40:07 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline JetBoy

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #562 on: April 26, 2013, 11:49:28 AM »
Great point Pete! It was 3:00 am and I had been looking at this thread for about 6 hours before I watched the video and posted.  :)

After watching the video again with fresh eyes, you're right. I do remember pouring a little bit of oil around the dough ball for the last couple of spins around the Hobart. They also coat the table with a thin layer of oil to help manage rolling the balls.

No more Jet's in this thread from me. I'm off to start the dough for my Buddy's style pizza!

Offline JetBoy

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #563 on: April 26, 2013, 02:22:28 PM »
This was posted in the Detroit News in the early 80's:

Buddy's Deep Dish Detroit Style Pizza

CRUST:
1 pkg yeast (dissolved in 1/4 c warm water)
2 tsp dry milk (add to yeast & proof 10 min)
1 tsp sugar
4 1/4 c flour
1 tsp salt
2 Tbs olive oil
1 1/4 c warm water
Stir all ingr. plus yeast mxt. in large bowl using only half flour.
When blended add remaining flour. Knead, cover, rise till double.
Make 2 balls.

SAUCE:
2-15 oz cans tomato puree (Or one 29 oz can)
2 Tbs olive oil
1 tsp salt
1/2 tsp garlic salt
2 cloves garlic, minced
1/2 tsp basil
1 tsp oregano
2 tsp sugar
Combine all & simmer 15 minutes.

Place dough in 2 heavily oiled 9 x 12 pans.
Pepperoni on dough, then mushrooms then 4 cups of cheese.
Scatter green pepper & onions on cheese.
Then 3 long rows of sauce on top.
Bake preheated 450 for 20-25 minutes.

Please notice that this recipe uses less moisture % than what I am seeing here on page 20 of this thread.

I'm working on the Sauce right now. Has anyone tried the above mentioned recipe?  How did it turn out?  Obviously you must add water to tomato paste, so I'm wondering if anybody's recipe is similar but tweaked a bit. Thanks!

Geeze, I just went to the other thread you mentioned above Pete. It likes like I've got another 60 pages to read! =)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 02:25:05 PM by JetBoy »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #564 on: April 26, 2013, 02:41:49 PM »
JetBoy,

I do not recall that any member has ever reported using either of the two recipes you referenced. But I can tell you that the dough recipe is not the one used by Buddy's. Buddy's dough comprises only flour, water, yeast and there is even a question as to whether any salt is used in the Buddy's dough (although most of our members do use salt). As for the Buddy's pizza sauce, Buddy's has previously said that it uses a blend of Stanislaus tomato products, to which it adds water and seasonings. All of the above, and a lot more, is discussed in excruciating detail in the Two Bills thread I referenced a few posts ago.

Peter

Offline JetBoy

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #565 on: April 26, 2013, 03:01:46 PM »
Thanks again Pete!

I'm using Pizza Hog's dough recipe from post 199. I mixed up the sauce according to the above referenced post and it's not very good at all. I'm going to add some water, perhaps crushed tomatoes and more sugar. I'm just getting into the Two Bills thread right now.

A new Buddy's is opening later this year near Hall Rd. and Hayes (where Teddy's Times Square used to be) for the Michiganders out this way that would be interested.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #566 on: April 26, 2013, 06:39:34 PM »
You probably made the dough back when Mama Rosas was good, sadly they went downhill a few years back.  Not that it's bad, just not what it was when I was first introduced to it.
-Jeff


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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #567 on: April 26, 2013, 07:09:40 PM »
You probably made the dough back when Mama Rosas was good, sadly they went downhill a few years back.  Not that it's bad, just not what it was when I was first introduced to it.

Thanks man!  It became so routine to me I could practically do it with my eyes closed. I got pretty darn good at eye measurement went it came to cutting out the pieces to be rolled into balls too. It used to be a pretty darn good pie. I haven't been there in a couple years, but the owner Tony passed away a few years ago. I hear they even charge for the sesame seeds on the crust now.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #568 on: April 26, 2013, 09:00:44 PM »
Thanks again Pete!

I'm using Pizza Hog's dough recipe from post 199. I mixed up the sauce according to the above referenced post and it's not very good at all. I'm going to add some water, perhaps crushed tomatoes and more sugar. I'm just getting into the Two Bills thread right now.

A new Buddy's is opening later this year near Hall Rd. and Hayes (where Teddy's Times Square used to be) for the Michiganders out this way that would be interested.
JetBoy,
The spice amounts look pretty good on that sauce. I would omit the oil and not cook the sauce. It needs cut by at least maybe 50% with water.
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Offline redox

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #569 on: May 18, 2013, 09:22:13 PM »
Tonight's pizza. Now off to Showtime for the fight.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:28:54 PM by redox »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #570 on: May 18, 2013, 11:29:06 PM »
'dats what I'm talking bout.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #571 on: May 18, 2013, 11:35:47 PM »
Yes!  ^^^  That is an all around faaantastic looking pie....but the crumb; Momma Mia!!  :drool:
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Offline redox

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #572 on: May 18, 2013, 11:36:45 PM »
This was my best yet, finally got some serious crispy cheese goodness around the edges.

Offline redox

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #573 on: May 18, 2013, 11:38:38 PM »
Yes!  ^^^  That is an all around faaantastic looking pie....but the crumb; Momma Mia!!  :drool:
Decent crumb for a 3 hour rise.

Online norma427

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #574 on: May 19, 2013, 09:18:16 PM »
Tonight's pizza. Now off to Showtime for the fight.

Jay,

Great looking pizzas!  8)

Norma
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