Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 166510 times)

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Offline Lydia

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2008, 11:19:53 AM »
Peter

I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you convert recipes to formulas.


Thank you!
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2008, 11:27:42 AM »
Lydia,

My pleasure. I was hoping to find the sizes of pans that Buddy's uses, and to come up with formulations for those sizes, but I could not find anything on the sizes of their pans. They specify their sizes by "squares", either 4 squares or 8 squares.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2008, 11:31:57 AM »
Peter

I don't have any of that information right now, but I'll keep an eye out for it.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2008, 02:20:42 PM »

Here's a quote from an old Pizza Today article, I included the info about the Hawaiian pizza in-case anyone's interested. It appears the that large is an 8 inch.

Quote
Hawaiian pizza is given a kick at Buddy's Restaurant and Pizzeria with the continuation of its unique flavor combination in the pizza's sweet and sour sauce.

"People who come to Buddy's already expect something a little out of the ordinary," says Wesley Pikula, vice president of operations for the concept in Michigan. Indeed, Buddy's stands out from the crowd with its square-shaped pizzas. It also boasts pastry-like crust, which is achieved by applying the sauce over the cheese. "That way, the crust is crunchy and doesn't get saturated with sauce," says Pikula.

The sweet and sour sauce is made with crushed pineapple, honey and a smoky barbecue sauce. Canned Dole pineapple rings and diced imported Polish ham decorate the pizza. The 8-inch deep dish sells for $13.99 and runs a 24 percent food cost.

"It's pretty popular. It's one of those specialty pizzas that has a loyal fan base that looks for the `brand' of Hawaiian and orders it every time," says Pikula. Buddy's sells 10 specialty pizzas, and the Hawaiian performs in the top four.

Shelf life of canned pineapple doesn't seem to be an issue. "Pineapple is a pretty hardy ingredient. It holds up really well," says Pikula. As Buddy's is a full-service restaurant, cross-utilization is easy. For instance, the pizza's sweet and sour sauce can be used as a dipping sauce for appetizers or entrees. And, of course, the pineapple rings can be crushed to make the sauce itself.

"One thing that's really important is the handling of the pineapple. It's got a lot of water weight so you have to drain it for a long time. If not, you'll weigh the pizza down and make it watery," says Pikula.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2008, 03:16:06 PM »
Geez! I can't believe I overlooked the info on the home page at Buddies!  ::)

Here it confirms the large is an 8 inch plus other helpful info.

Quote
Our dough is made from scratch daily in each of our kitchens.

We use only premium grade flour in our dough's secret recipe. Carefully double kneading the dough and allowing it to rise for 1 to 1-1/2 hours helps to create Buddy's famous crunchy crust.

We use almost one pound of cheese on our large, 8-square pizzas. This brick cheese is made especially for Buddy's in Wisconsin and is shredded by hand for the perfect melt.

Our produce is received fresh daily and all of our vegetable toppings are hand sliced.

We use Margherita brand pepperoni - a lean, high-quality, more flavorful, course-ground sausage. We place it under the cheese to  prevent charring from the high baking heat.

Our pizza sauce is made with a blend of Stanislaus premium tomato products, herbs and spices (our own little secret for more than 50 years.)

All of Buddy's Black Steel pizza pans have to be specially seasoned. Some have been around for more than 50 years.

PS. Most chains that I know of use either Bull's eye or KC masterpeice BBQ sauces in original flavor for their Hawaiian pizza sauce base, then add their signature ingredients.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 03:19:14 PM by Lydia »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2008, 03:54:55 PM »
Lydia,

Thank you for the information. I had read the material you quoted some time ago but I don't believe that one can assume that the pan for the large size pizza is 8" square. As noted from the Buddy's menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/Menu.pdf, their pizzas are sold by "squares", either 4 squares or 8 squares. It would seem to me that if almost a full pound of cheese were to be distributed over a surface area of only 64 square inches, the cheese would be very deep. Also, if the 8-sq. means an 8" x 8" pan, to get the 4-sq., you would need a 5.66" x 5.66" pan (square root of 64/2) to get half the surface area of the 8" square pan. That doesn't seem likely.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2008, 04:28:48 PM »
I agree, it wasn't making sense to me either. Maybe it was a typo is the pizza today article and should have read "8 square".

I posted some production pics, the 4 square does look to be 7-8 inches, and the 8 square pan looks to be 10x15, but it's tapered at the bottom so it could be throwing me off. I have a 10x15x2 but it's very hard to come by.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2008, 04:40:06 PM »
Lydia,

I saw those photos and also saw this one, which looks like the 8-sq.: http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. Don't be alarmed as the photo develops :-D.

Peter

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2008, 02:36:49 PM »
Through a Google search, I found an article, in cache form, at
 http://cache.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/?archive_id=0&page_id=180757455&page_url=%2f%2fwww.detroitnews.com%2fshowtime%2frest%2f1996%2fbuddy.htm&page_last_updated=8%2f3%2f2001+11%3a16%3a51+AM&firstName=Buddy&lastName=Pizza, from which I excerpted the following tidbits on Buddy's deep-dish pizzas:

* Pepperoni goes on first, under the cheese.

* Nearly a pound of cheese -- 15 ounces of a secret blend made exclusively for Buddy's by Kraft -- is spread on a 10-by-13-inch, or large, pizza.

* The outer edge of the pie is also made of cheese, not dough crust.

* The dough is fat- and sugar-free. (Some consolation!)

* The sauce goes on over the cheese, not the other way around.

* The pizza is baked for 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven.


In another article I found, at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_/ai_18466666?tag=artBody;col1, there is a statement that the Buddy's dough recipe was created by an employee, Connie Piccinato, in 1946. Since IDY was invented much later, the yeast most likely would have been ADY, which was invented shortly after World War II, or fresh yeast. Buddy's says at its website that it uses a "premium" flour. That can mean whatever the writer wants it to mean, but in 1946 it perhaps wasn't a high-gluten flour because that flour was not used in pizza making in 1946. So, I suspect the original recipe called for using either all-purpose flour or bread flour.

Peter

EDIT (12/13/12): Since the above findarticles.com link is no longer available (and not archived), a similar reference to Connie Piccinato's involvement in the development of the original Buddy's pizza can be found at http://diningindetroit.blogspot.com/2011/06/eid-feature-buddys-pizza-detroit.html.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 09:58:32 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Lydia

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2008, 11:31:29 AM »
Cool finds Peter!

well....hmm...a 10x13 pan  ???

I wouldn't even have a clue how to get a pan that size except as a cookie sheet/jelly roll pan, and those only have a one inch rim at most. I don't even think you can find that size in a rectangle casserole dish. It seems like maybe for forum purposes a formula for a 9x13 would be more practical.

I don't get the comment about the edge being "cheese, not dough". The only thing that makes sense to me it that the person simple meant that there was no naked crust rim and that the cheese went all the way to the edges.

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2008, 12:49:06 PM »
Lydia,

In parallel with my research, on Friday I sent an email to Buddy's on the pan sizes. I got an answer this morning. The two pan sizes are 8" x 10" for the small pan, and 10" x 14" for the large pan. Assuming that the 15 ounces of cheese is correct, that translates to 15/(10 x 14) = 0.1071428 ounces of cheese per square inch. If someone has a different size pan, that number can be used to determine roughly how much cheese to use. For example, I have an 8" x 12" rectangular pan (from pizzatools.com/lloydpans.com). It is sloping sided but the 8" x 12" dimensions would suggest using about 10 ounces of cheese.

If I had to guess, I would say that the comment about the cheese means that the cheese covers all of the dough, right up to the sides of the pan and maybe a bit higher to form a rim which will bake up crispy. Another possibility is that there is a bit of space between the dough and the pan that is filled with cheese. However, the photos you showed do not show any space between the dough and the pans.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 04:37:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline BDoggPizza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2008, 05:28:16 PM »
I'm telling ya!  Make the dough recipe I posted...its the real deal!  Use whatever pizza pan you want, the pizza tastes the same no matter the shape!  I like to just use my chicago deep dish pan.  Use Peter's help with the thickness factor and getting the baker's percentages right for your size pan and follow the recipe.  You will love it.

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2008, 06:39:55 PM »
B-Dogg,

I don't doubt what you say. It's just that I like to try to figure things out. For example, I have devoted a fair amount of thought to how Buddy's might be doing the double kneading, which is held out at Buddy's website as being an important step to making their dough. I have also been trying to figure out when Buddy's does the proofing of the dough--before putting the dough in the refrigerator, or the next day or maybe after a couple of days. It is also possible that they don't refrigerate the dough at all, although that may not be the way to go with nine Buddy's stores doing a high volume business. The dough management you used is the Tom Lehmann way--make the dough, cold ferment it, warm it up the next day and shape and put it in the pan, proof it, dress it, and bake it. But it is also possible to make the dough, shape it and put it in the pan, cold ferment it, warm it up the next day, dress it, and bake it. That is the way that Pizza Hut used to do it before it went to frozen doughs. The double kneading can be incorporated into either method, although I think it would be easier using the Pizza Hut method. I assume that Buddy's uses a commercial proofer for proofing the panned skins.

If you have any knowledge on the above issues, I'd be happy to receive it.

BTW, how do you make the sauce and what kind of tomatoes have you been using? Buddy's says it uses Stanislaus tomatoes for its sauce.

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2008, 12:01:01 PM »
I'm telling ya!  Make the dough recipe I posted...its the real deal!  Use whatever pizza pan you want, the pizza tastes the same no matter the shape!  I like to just use my chicago deep dish pan.  Use Peter's help with the thickness factor and getting the baker's percentages right for your size pan and follow the recipe.  You will love it.

BDoggPizza,

Your recipe is just about what I have been using lately with excellent results. Did you tell us what the temperature of the water was that you use?

Also, what type of flour or flour combinations have you found to be your favorite?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 12:05:21 PM by MWTC »

Offline BDoggPizza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2008, 05:10:32 PM »
I use between 100* to 110* water and I use either Gold Medal AP or King Arthur AP.  I haven't really noticed a difference between them in the finished product.

Offline MWTC

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2008, 03:15:53 PM »
Thanks BDoggPizza,

Would you share your sauce recipe with us?

I made your dough recipe last night. Now I am looking for a new sauce recipe to try.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline BDoggPizza

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2008, 02:45:34 PM »
The sauce is one thing i don't really know much about.  I usually use strained 6-1 tomatoes with a little salt & pepper and then sprinkle oregano over the whole pizza.
I don't believe that some of these restaurants go all out on their sauces.  The get high quality tomatoes that you probably only get from restaurant supplies (not your local grocery store).  I'd be interested in a "good" sauce recipe myself.

How'd the dough and pizza turn out???

Offline MWTC

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2008, 10:29:34 AM »
How'd the dough and pizza turn out???

I used a mix of flours by King Arthur, KAAP@45%, KABF@45%, and KA White Whole Wheat@10%. I was very happy with the flavor of the dough. I am working on the thickness factor. I used a 12 oz dough with a small rectangular pan. It needs just a little more dough. I might also raise the hydration a few percents to get a little more airiness. But all in all it was a very good recipe, and would give it a thumbs up.  ;D

I am now turning my attention to the sauce. It is a major deciding factor in the final overall result. I want that, "WOW"  :o  factor. I get the, "thats good" response, but not the WOW. Its only a matter of time. Just don't know how much.  8)

Thanks for the recipe, Thumbs UP.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline bomarksf

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2009, 05:13:02 AM »
I am new here.  I was born and raised on Detroit's NE side.  I can remember standing in line at Buscemi's at Gratiot and Toepfer on a Friday night and waiting for the fresh trays to come out of the oven.  Heaven!  Trust me, there is NOTHING like that here in California!  Alas.
There are a couple of tricks to making authentic Sicilian syle pizza.  The crust is almost kind of cake-like experience.  I watched them make it at Buscemi's many times.  Any good pizza dough recipe will probably work.  Many places will even sell you their raw dough by the pound.  One thing I noticed is that the pan is generously greased with fresh bacon drippings.  Then they throw a handful of corn meal over that.  The dough has to be needed, risen and punched-down at least twice before it is rolled out into the pan.  Let it rise in the pan one more time, then cover in your favorite sauce and bake.....just the crust and sauce together.  This pre-baking the crust assures that the finished product will have a nice and fluffy texture before you layer on the heavy toppings.  Take this from the oven and let it cool.  Apply a thick layer of your favorite cheese mixture and cover that completely with the thinnest layer of pepperoni.  You should not be able to see any of the cheese underneath.  I pop that into the oven for a few minutes more, just to melt the cheese.  I remove the pan again and then apply my final layer of toppings; usually more cheese, sausage, mushrooms and green pepper.  Return to the oven and let that bake a few more minutes. 
I know that the back and forth and in and out of the oven is a hassle, but I promise you that the end product will be well worth it! 

Offline pjbear05

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2009, 07:37:39 PM »
Hi gang, new to board, Ex-Detroiter:

Some one mention lactic acid taste?  My rumor mill has two theories on this:
1.  Using butter as opposed to oil in dough
2.  Wisconsin Brick cheese as opposed to Mozzarella-the theory also said brick didn't break down under the high baking heat like mozzarella did.

Don't know about either-may work or be urban legend.  comments?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 07:42:14 PM by pjbear05 »
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