Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 205311 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2008, 03:54:55 PM »
Lydia,

Thank you for the information. I had read the material you quoted some time ago but I don't believe that one can assume that the pan for the large size pizza is 8" square. As noted from the Buddy's menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/Menu.pdf, their pizzas are sold by "squares", either 4 squares or 8 squares. It would seem to me that if almost a full pound of cheese were to be distributed over a surface area of only 64 square inches, the cheese would be very deep. Also, if the 8-sq. means an 8" x 8" pan, to get the 4-sq., you would need a 5.66" x 5.66" pan (square root of 64/2) to get half the surface area of the 8" square pan. That doesn't seem likely.

Peter


Offline Lydia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 839
  • Location: NORTHERN ALABAMA
    • Viddler
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2008, 04:28:48 PM »
I agree, it wasn't making sense to me either. Maybe it was a typo is the pizza today article and should have read "8 square".

I posted some production pics, the 4 square does look to be 7-8 inches, and the 8 square pan looks to be 10x15, but it's tapered at the bottom so it could be throwing me off. I have a 10x15x2 but it's very hard to come by.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2008, 04:40:06 PM »
Lydia,

I saw those photos and also saw this one, which looks like the 8-sq.: http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. Don't be alarmed as the photo develops :-D.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2008, 02:36:49 PM »
Through a Google search, I found an article, in cache form, at
 http://cache.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/?archive_id=0&page_id=180757455&page_url=%2f%2fwww.detroitnews.com%2fshowtime%2frest%2f1996%2fbuddy.htm&page_last_updated=8%2f3%2f2001+11%3a16%3a51+AM&firstName=Buddy&lastName=Pizza, from which I excerpted the following tidbits on Buddy's deep-dish pizzas:

* Pepperoni goes on first, under the cheese.

* Nearly a pound of cheese -- 15 ounces of a secret blend made exclusively for Buddy's by Kraft -- is spread on a 10-by-13-inch, or large, pizza.

* The outer edge of the pie is also made of cheese, not dough crust.

* The dough is fat- and sugar-free. (Some consolation!)

* The sauce goes on over the cheese, not the other way around.

* The pizza is baked for 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven.


In another article I found, at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_/ai_18466666?tag=artBody;col1, there is a statement that the Buddy's dough recipe was created by an employee, Connie Piccinato, and Gus Guerrera (sic), in 1946. Since IDY was invented much later, the yeast most likely would have been ADY, which was invented shortly after World War II, or fresh yeast. Buddy's says at its website that it uses a "premium" flour. That can mean whatever the writer wants it to mean, but in 1946 it perhaps wasn't a high-gluten flour because that flour was not used in pizza making in 1946. So, I suspect the original recipe called for using either all-purpose flour or bread flour.

Peter

EDIT (12/13/12): Since the above findarticles.com link is no longer available (and not archived), a similar reference to Connie Piccinato's involvement in the development of the original Buddy's pizza can be found at http://diningindetroit.blogspot.com/2011/06/eid-feature-buddys-pizza-detroit.html.

Offline Lydia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 839
  • Location: NORTHERN ALABAMA
    • Viddler
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2008, 11:31:29 AM »
Cool finds Peter!

well....hmm...a 10x13 pan  ???

I wouldn't even have a clue how to get a pan that size except as a cookie sheet/jelly roll pan, and those only have a one inch rim at most. I don't even think you can find that size in a rectangle casserole dish. It seems like maybe for forum purposes a formula for a 9x13 would be more practical.

I don't get the comment about the edge being "cheese, not dough". The only thing that makes sense to me it that the person simple meant that there was no naked crust rim and that the cheese went all the way to the edges.

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2008, 12:49:06 PM »
Lydia,

In parallel with my research, on Friday I sent an email to Buddy's on the pan sizes. I got an answer this morning. The two pan sizes are 8" x 10" for the small pan, and 10" x 14" for the large pan. Assuming that the 15 ounces of cheese is correct, that translates to 15/(10 x 14) = 0.1071428 ounces of cheese per square inch. If someone has a different size pan, that number can be used to determine roughly how much cheese to use. For example, I have an 8" x 12" rectangular pan (from pizzatools.com/lloydpans.com). It is sloping sided but the 8" x 12" dimensions would suggest using about 10 ounces of cheese.

If I had to guess, I would say that the comment about the cheese means that the cheese covers all of the dough, right up to the sides of the pan and maybe a bit higher to form a rim which will bake up crispy. Another possibility is that there is a bit of space between the dough and the pan that is filled with cheese. However, the photos you showed do not show any space between the dough and the pans.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 04:37:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline BDoggPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 38
  • Location: Davenport, IA
  • Go Hawks!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2008, 05:28:16 PM »
I'm telling ya!  Make the dough recipe I posted...its the real deal!  Use whatever pizza pan you want, the pizza tastes the same no matter the shape!  I like to just use my chicago deep dish pan.  Use Peter's help with the thickness factor and getting the baker's percentages right for your size pan and follow the recipe.  You will love it.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23360
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2008, 06:39:55 PM »
B-Dogg,

I don't doubt what you say. It's just that I like to try to figure things out. For example, I have devoted a fair amount of thought to how Buddy's might be doing the double kneading, which is held out at Buddy's website as being an important step to making their dough. I have also been trying to figure out when Buddy's does the proofing of the dough--before putting the dough in the refrigerator, or the next day or maybe after a couple of days. It is also possible that they don't refrigerate the dough at all, although that may not be the way to go with nine Buddy's stores doing a high volume business. The dough management you used is the Tom Lehmann way--make the dough, cold ferment it, warm it up the next day and shape and put it in the pan, proof it, dress it, and bake it. But it is also possible to make the dough, shape it and put it in the pan, cold ferment it, warm it up the next day, dress it, and bake it. That is the way that Pizza Hut used to do it before it went to frozen doughs. The double kneading can be incorporated into either method, although I think it would be easier using the Pizza Hut method. I assume that Buddy's uses a commercial proofer for proofing the panned skins.

If you have any knowledge on the above issues, I'd be happy to receive it.

BTW, how do you make the sauce and what kind of tomatoes have you been using? Buddy's says it uses Stanislaus tomatoes for its sauce.

Peter

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2008, 12:01:01 PM »
I'm telling ya!  Make the dough recipe I posted...its the real deal!  Use whatever pizza pan you want, the pizza tastes the same no matter the shape!  I like to just use my chicago deep dish pan.  Use Peter's help with the thickness factor and getting the baker's percentages right for your size pan and follow the recipe.  You will love it.

BDoggPizza,

Your recipe is just about what I have been using lately with excellent results. Did you tell us what the temperature of the water was that you use?

Also, what type of flour or flour combinations have you found to be your favorite?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 12:05:21 PM by MWTC »


Offline BDoggPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 38
  • Location: Davenport, IA
  • Go Hawks!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2008, 05:10:32 PM »
I use between 100* to 110* water and I use either Gold Medal AP or King Arthur AP.  I haven't really noticed a difference between them in the finished product.

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2008, 03:15:53 PM »
Thanks BDoggPizza,

Would you share your sauce recipe with us?

I made your dough recipe last night. Now I am looking for a new sauce recipe to try.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline BDoggPizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 38
  • Location: Davenport, IA
  • Go Hawks!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2008, 02:45:34 PM »
The sauce is one thing i don't really know much about.  I usually use strained 6-1 tomatoes with a little salt & pepper and then sprinkle oregano over the whole pizza.
I don't believe that some of these restaurants go all out on their sauces.  The get high quality tomatoes that you probably only get from restaurant supplies (not your local grocery store).  I'd be interested in a "good" sauce recipe myself.

How'd the dough and pizza turn out???

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2008, 10:29:34 AM »
How'd the dough and pizza turn out???

I used a mix of flours by King Arthur, KAAP@45%, KABF@45%, and KA White Whole Wheat@10%. I was very happy with the flavor of the dough. I am working on the thickness factor. I used a 12 oz dough with a small rectangular pan. It needs just a little more dough. I might also raise the hydration a few percents to get a little more airiness. But all in all it was a very good recipe, and would give it a thumbs up.  ;D

I am now turning my attention to the sauce. It is a major deciding factor in the final overall result. I want that, "WOW"  :o  factor. I get the, "thats good" response, but not the WOW. Its only a matter of time. Just don't know how much.  8)

Thanks for the recipe, Thumbs UP.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline bomarksf

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2009, 05:13:02 AM »
I am new here.  I was born and raised on Detroit's NE side.  I can remember standing in line at Buscemi's at Gratiot and Toepfer on a Friday night and waiting for the fresh trays to come out of the oven.  Heaven!  Trust me, there is NOTHING like that here in California!  Alas.
There are a couple of tricks to making authentic Sicilian syle pizza.  The crust is almost kind of cake-like experience.  I watched them make it at Buscemi's many times.  Any good pizza dough recipe will probably work.  Many places will even sell you their raw dough by the pound.  One thing I noticed is that the pan is generously greased with fresh bacon drippings.  Then they throw a handful of corn meal over that.  The dough has to be needed, risen and punched-down at least twice before it is rolled out into the pan.  Let it rise in the pan one more time, then cover in your favorite sauce and bake.....just the crust and sauce together.  This pre-baking the crust assures that the finished product will have a nice and fluffy texture before you layer on the heavy toppings.  Take this from the oven and let it cool.  Apply a thick layer of your favorite cheese mixture and cover that completely with the thinnest layer of pepperoni.  You should not be able to see any of the cheese underneath.  I pop that into the oven for a few minutes more, just to melt the cheese.  I remove the pan again and then apply my final layer of toppings; usually more cheese, sausage, mushrooms and green pepper.  Return to the oven and let that bake a few more minutes. 
I know that the back and forth and in and out of the oven is a hassle, but I promise you that the end product will be well worth it! 

Offline pjbear05

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 92
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Pembroke Pines, FL
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2009, 07:37:39 PM »
Hi gang, new to board, Ex-Detroiter:

Some one mention lactic acid taste?  My rumor mill has two theories on this:
1.  Using butter as opposed to oil in dough
2.  Wisconsin Brick cheese as opposed to Mozzarella-the theory also said brick didn't break down under the high baking heat like mozzarella did.

Don't know about either-may work or be urban legend.  comments?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 07:42:14 PM by pjbear05 »
"Aw, Paulie?  You won't see him no more!"

Offline GIBBY

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Imlay City, Michigan
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2009, 01:34:53 AM »
Hello. This is my first post here and I hope everyone has patience with me. Anyhow, here I go. My godfather used to be a Brinks armored car guy who used to pick up at Buddy's. Eventually he was asked by the then owners to become the manager. His wife and my mother became waitress there also. My dad used to take me there when I was just 6 months old and I would eat the capalete ? soup and pizza, so Buddy's has a place in my heart (and stomach). I haven't found a pizza I like better. I've been trying to find all the secret ingredients. I would ask my Godfather but I haven't seen him in many moons. Anyhow, I am now on a quest to get what I need to make them at home. I found the square pans at a restuarant supply store named Roselli's. They are 10X14 and cost $ 6.95 each. Those are considered the large pans or 8 slice square. They also carry the small pans. I did not notice the price. When my mom worked at Buddy's, customers would order two small pizzas because they wanted the corners because the crust was so good- nice and buttery.  They give you instructions when you buy the pans. Also once you use the pans you never wash them, you just wipe them clean. They are steel so they will rust. The Marhgerhita brand pepperoni was also available. Apparently there is only one flavor but two different types. A 25# box sliced or 10# box unsliced. I bought the former @ $75.00. I know that's alot of pizza's. The cheese is a blend that is made for Buddy's exclusively as stated earlier in the thread. I don't beleive that Mozzarella is used because it's usually stringy when you bite into it. Buddy's cheese is not in actuality. I beleive it's actually a Meunster cheese.  I bought a round tube of it that weighed almost 7 lbs-cost-$21. One website states they use Stanislaus brand tomato products. Roselli's had about 6 different blends from that compnay so the lady suggested the heavy type with basil that you mix a can with a half can of water. Or as she put it, 6  cans with 3 cans of water. I'm not making 9 gallons of sauce. I did ask if they were the suppliers to Buddy's but she said no. They use a premium flour but did not state which brand. I use to work for Coca-Cola and delivered to Roselli's a few times and they have about 20 different brands of flour in the warehouse so your guess is as good as mine. One thing I have seen is that when the pizza dough is in the pan, it is shiny . I think they wipe oil of some type on it. maybe olive? The bottom of the pan is also shiny. My godfather went on in later years to own two different restaurants and when the pans came back the the kitchen, he'd wipe out any residue, brushed them with oil and placed another ball of dough back in it.  Anyone reading this that hasn't had Buddy's pizza, the dough seems to be very airy with a lot of air pockets/bubbles. you'd have to see it to understand. I think the dough and the sauce are the keys to the recipe. I told my son that we might have to take a week off and sit in the Buddy's parking lot and wait to see who delivers or rummage though the garbage and look for clues. Investigative reporting at it's best. Or even better, bribe one of the kitchen helpers to tell us what are the ingredients. The hunt is ON!!!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 01:43:48 AM by GIBBY »

Offline jeff v

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1647
  • Location: Orland Park, IL
  • I'm Valentino not Varasano :)
    • Pizzeria Valentino
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2009, 10:10:17 AM »
Welcome GIBBY. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with your hunt. Please keep us updated.

Best,

Jeff
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.


Offline aks801

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 43
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2009, 11:50:53 AM »
Welcome GIBBY. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with your hunt. Please keep us updated.

Best,

Jeff

Same here, let us know!  My NY style pizzas I'm very satisfied with, but I'm nowhere close to my target with the Sicilian.
alan in Katy, TX

"Meet the new boss.  Same as the old boss."
 - Pete Townshend

Offline PizzaHog

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 542
  • Location: Clinton Township, MI
  • Heat matters!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2009, 12:31:24 PM »
Being a Detroiter (now a Detroit suburbanite) and growing up and living on these pizzas, I read this post with great interest.  Just to confirm and clarify a few points as this one of my favorite topics...
Buddy's was the original creator of the Detroit style under ownership of Gus Guerra.  Gus sold Buddy's and opened the Cloverleaf, and the pizza creation at Buddy's was taken over by Loui Tourtois.  Loui then left Buddy's and went to another small bar in Detroit called Shields, eventually leaving and opening his own pizzeria and bar, Loui's.  All this took place long ago (the timeline begins in the 40's), and today Buddy's and Shield's have expanded to multiple locations, Cloverleaf has a couple of carry out only branches, and only Loui's remains essentially unchanged.  The original Buddy's and Cloverleaf still exist, but the original Shield's is long gone.  These 4 remain the preeminent Detroit style pizza bars that all others are judged by. 
All these pizzas are rectangular and the "crust" is indeed formed by the cheese extending all the way to ends of the pan covering all the dough, cooking and even burning a bit, and flowing down whatever gap is created during the baking process.  Meat under the cheese is the standard with a non chunky, not complex sauce on top, often applied in 2 or 3 wide strips.  The dough is unique and I'm sure I do not yet know the proper terms to describe it, so my best attempt is that it ends up light, many small air bubbles present and crispy where it contacts the pan becoming less so toward the center (especially if really loaded down with toppings), soft and fairly easy to compress, creating a texture change from end to end on each piece.  I'm lost regarding any flavor descriptions (newbie thing).  Sauce's vary with diff levels of sweetness, but all seem quite simple.  The way it's applied, some bites contain no sauce at all, creating flavor changes from end to end of each piece as well.
Those pizza lovers fortunate (or just plain old enough like me) to have eaten the originals have noted changes over the years and expansions and debate which is best today.  IMHO, and those of my pizza loving friends, Loui's has remained truest to his roots with Buddy's and Cloverleaf (original locations only!) pretty close.  The last Shield's I had was a disappointment and haven't been back since, although that particular location is now gone and there are plenty of folks still touting Shield's, so maybe I will try them again.
Yes, Buscemi's, once a great pizza and sub party store chain, has degraded to a four letter word that smells bad.
I seem to recall reading that Loui's uses imported mozza (not whole I would assume) and question the use of Brick, at least the Brick commonly available at the Italian deli's.  My mom always used straight Brick, and at home temps and times, Brick was way more stretchy and tough.  Maybe Wisconsin is diff.   
I really appreciate all the input on this thread and will be putting it use soon attempting a Detroit style and will post the results.
Thanks for listening,
Hog

Edit:  Found this photo.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 02:13:33 PM by PizzaHog »

Offline steverino

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
  • Location: Metro Detroit
  • Beer is liquid bread.
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2009, 05:13:22 PM »
Gibby and Pizzahog -

I'm reposting something I posted on the first page.  I am a HUGE fan Of the Detroit style:

I'm personally a big fan of Loui's pizza.  It's on Dequindre, just north of nine mile.  I believe there is some intermingling history between Shield's, Buddy's and Loui's.  Like the pizzamakers worked together at some point, or their families, or something, and at some point there were separations.  All different pizzas, but very much "Detroit Style" in the similarity of the crusts.  I've been trying to replicate the Loui's crust for years.  I'm close, it's good, but not quite there.

Offline GIBBY

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Imlay City, Michigan
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2009, 05:35:07 PM »
Gibby and Pizzahog -

I'm reposting something I posted on the first page.  I am a HUGE fan Of the Detroit style:

I'm personally a big fan of Loui's pizza.  It's on Dequindre, just north of nine mile.  I believe there is some intermingling history between Shield's, Buddy's and Loui's.  Like the pizzamakers worked together at some point, or their families, or something, and at some point there were separations.  All different pizzas, but very much "Detroit Style" in the similarity of the crusts.  I've been trying to replicate the Loui's crust for years.  I'm close, it's good, but not quite there.

Yes, there is something special about the Detroit square deep dish pizza. As mentioned in my first post, I've been eating Buddy's since the ripe old age of 6 months. I have also eaten all the variations-Loui's, Sheilds and Cloverleaf. They all have their unique flavor- which, BTW, might be an addition or subtraction of just one element. But they all have that crispy crust that we love so much. as far as the Dough recipe goes there might be something simple we are missing while trying to recreate it.
Let's see?


Flour

Water

Yeast

Eggs

Sugar

Salt

Baking powder

Baking soda

Beer instead of water??? extra carbonation and yeast?

Olive oil or Veg oil?

Butter?


Offline GIBBY

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 33
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Imlay City, Michigan
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2009, 05:48:01 PM »
Being a Detroiter (now a Detroit suburbanite) and growing up and living on these pizzas, I read this post with great interest.  Just to confirm and clarify a few points as this one of my favorite topics...
Buddy's was the original creator of the Detroit style under ownership of Gus Guerra.  Gus sold Buddy's and opened the Cloverleaf, and the pizza creation at Buddy's was taken over by Loui Tourtois.  Loui then left Buddy's and went to another small bar in Detroit called Shields, eventually leaving and opening his own pizzeria and bar, Loui's.  All this took place long ago (the timeline begins in the 40's), and today Buddy's and Shield's have expanded to multiple locations, Cloverleaf has a couple of carry out only branches, and only Loui's remains essentially unchanged.  The original Buddy's and Cloverleaf still exist, but the original Shield's is long gone.  These 4 remain the preeminent Detroit style pizza bars that all others are judged by. 
All these pizzas are rectangular and the "crust" is indeed formed by the cheese extending all the way to ends of the pan covering all the dough, cooking and even burning a bit, and flowing down whatever gap is created during the baking process.  Meat under the cheese is the standard with a non chunky, not complex sauce on top, often applied in 2 or 3 wide strips.  The dough is unique and I'm sure I do not yet know the proper terms to describe it, so my best attempt is that it ends up light, many small air bubbles present and crispy where it contacts the pan becoming less so toward the center (especially if really loaded down with toppings), soft and fairly easy to compress, creating a texture change from end to end on each piece.  I'm lost regarding any flavor descriptions (newbie thing).  Sauce's vary with diff levels of sweetness, but all seem quite simple.  The way it's applied, some bites contain no sauce at all, creating flavor changes from end to end of each piece as well.
Those pizza lovers fortunate (or just plain old enough like me) to have eaten the originals have noted changes over the years and expansions and debate which is best today.  IMHO, and those of my pizza loving friends, Loui's has remained truest to his roots with Buddy's and Cloverleaf (original locations only!) pretty close.  The last Shield's I had was a disappointment and haven't been back since, although that particular location is now gone and there are plenty of folks still touting Shield's, so maybe I will try them again.
Yes, Buscemi's, once a great pizza and sub party store chain, has degraded to a four letter word that smells bad.
I seem to recall reading that Loui's uses imported mozza (not whole I would assume) and question the use of Brick, at least the Brick commonly available at the Italian deli's.  My mom always used straight Brick, and at home temps and times, Brick was way more stretchy and tough.  Maybe Wisconsin is diff.   
I really appreciate all the input on this thread and will be putting it use soon attempting a Detroit style and will post the results.
Thanks for listening,
Hog

Edit:  Found this photo.

Pizzahog, it nice to see fellow Detroitburbanites tell the tales. For the ones left wondering, The original Sheild's was mere city blocks east of Buddy's on McNichols ( 6 mile rd). Boy talk about a rivalry! I always got chased off the bocci courts. Those old Itlaians took their game seriously. I knew where the Dum Dum sucker box was though, so I didn't get too discouraged when they yelled at me ;D. I bought and used Tuma brand Muenster. Non-greasy but needs a little more flavor. Might try and find some Wis brick.

Offline PizzaHog

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 542
  • Location: Clinton Township, MI
  • Heat matters!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2009, 06:14:40 PM »
Hey Gibby
Yes, it is great to have quite a few Detroiter's (past and present) here tellin' the stories and trying to figure out that pizza.  My 85 yr old dad always talks about Loui's, but hasn't been there for many years although he eats pizza every week.  So I took him to his favorite Loui's a couple of weeks ago and dang that was good pie.  Not quite as crisp this time around but it is still the real deal.
My first dough ball just went into the fridge!  I plan to give it a day or two and have at it with my new Roselli's pan, and thanks again for that tip.  I'll keep my fingers crossed and post the details then.
By the way, Roselli's has Wisconsin Brick in the last cooler in the row on your left.  The lady there told me they will sell those types of cheese in half brick chunks so you don't have to buy the whole thing to experiment.
Good Luck!
Hog

Offline PizzaHog

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 542
  • Location: Clinton Township, MI
  • Heat matters!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2009, 11:01:32 PM »
Version 1.00 completed!
First pizza since joining the forum and thanks again to everyone here for the fantastic info and advice.  First the details and results, then the inevitable questions.
Let me introduce the principals:

Dough (courtesy of sourdoughgirl in her tommys thread)

Flour (100%):    317.73 g  |  11.21 oz | 0.7 lbs               2.5 cups KAAP
Water (63%):    200.17 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs               41 tsp = 3/4c+1Tblsp+2tsp
IDY (.33%):    1.05 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp          1/4 tsp
Salt (1.5%):    4.77 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp       1 tsp
Total (164.83%):   523.71 g | 18.47 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.13195
Bowl Residue 1.5%

House is not balmy this time of year so heated water to 105 degrees, dissolved salt, added flour and yeast to the Kitchen Aid, mixed/kneaded for 5 min on speed 1, (dough was at 95 at this point) 20 min rest, then in an oiled tuppy and in the fridge.  19 hours later, added 2 Tblsp canola to a 10 x 14 black steel pan, spread the dough cold, covered with plastic wrap for a 5 hour rise.

Sauce:

Crushed 6 in 1's with skins, added 1/2 tsp oregano, 1/4 tsp garlic powder, 1/8 tsp onion powder, 1/4 tsp salt and 1/8 tsp pepper.

Cheese:
15 oz total, half Wisconsin Brick, half provolone, applied in thirds as 1/3 straight Brick, 1/3 straight prov, 1/3 as a 50/50 blend.

Pepperoni:
1/2 stick of Margherita, defatted a bit.

The battle:

Peperoni down first, cheese next, 2 cups sauce on top applied in 2 strips.  Baked on 2nd to bottom rack in 490 degree pre heated oven for 13 min.

The winner:  Me!  This was a dang good pizza, actually the best I have ever made and it is far from my first.  Much less effort and time expended than ever before too.  Lots of tweaking indicated and still a long way to go to approach the Detroit target though.   

Tweaks I can handle:  A bit thinner dough, a bit less sauce and experiment with herb/spcies, a bit more peperoni, and continue trying cheese types as the Brick seemed to have little flavor and the prov is better, but not Detroitish.  I will also try a longer cold ferment, but I just couldn't wait any longer to get this first pie in the oven.

Tweaks I would appreciate any input on:  Getting the bottom more fried/crisp before the cheese on top browns.  Also, he dough was quite good and tender, just not the texture or crumb I am targeting.  The more I view and read here, the more I am leaning towards greater hydration.  Detroit pizzas completely contact the pan on the bottom-no air voids or wrinkles like from pressing the dough into the pan.  Makes me think the dough may be more of a pour than a press.  Also, the surface texture of the dough on the bottom has a unique pattern of smallish air bubbles that I have not seen in any other pics yet and the interior has a focaccia element to it.

So many variables and so many tasty experiments to devour.  This is gonna be fun!


Offline PizzaHog

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 542
  • Location: Clinton Township, MI
  • Heat matters!
Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2009, 09:04:11 PM »
Version 1.01 attempted and improvement noted.  Can't say it is really any closer overall to a Detroit style than the last one, but definitely a better put together, balanced and tastier pizza.  The baked cheese on the crust edge thing is going in the right direction, but the dough texture and crumb continues to baffle.  Looks like I will spending some time at the local Cloverleaf carry out, covertly pumping the pizza cooks for info disguised as idle chit chat and maybe even some dumpster diving.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 09:07:15 PM by PizzaHog »


 

pizzapan