Author Topic: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's  (Read 149220 times)

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Offline steverino

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2009, 04:33:03 PM »
Hey Hog-

Here's a link to a pretty cool older Detroit style thread here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1535.0.html

This weekend looks like a bust - my wife and her girlfriend are taking my buddy and I out for a movie and Surf n' Turf Saturday night.  As much as I love my pizza, I can't bitch about that!

Peace,

Steve


Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2009, 06:57:28 PM »
Steverino
No problemo and you guys have yourself a great time and enjoy your cow and bugs.  Had me some good cow a couple of days ago myself.  But last night it was another pizza and I think I am finally on to something.  Not sure what though.  It does seem to have some of the qualities of a Loui's, except on steroids.  I actually really liked it.  Crisp and chewy, then airy and tender, then a bit soft and mushy on the very top.  Didn't absorb all the pan lube like the prev doughs, so was a bit greasy.  I'll be tweaking on this version and see what happens.
Later
Hog

Online jeff v

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2009, 08:44:07 PM »
pizzahog,

I really like how open that crumb is in your latest attempt-it looks great. Care to share your latest recipe?

Thanks,

Jeff

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2009, 12:37:52 PM »
Sure Jeff, as a newbie I am honored you asked.  This turned into one of those rush jobs and I do not yet have a scale.  In each successive experiment I have been raising the hydration, and if I understand the math correctly, this was something around 90%.

3/4 Cup + 1 Tblsp + 2 tsp water (95 degrees)
1 3/4 Cups flour (KAAP Organic, measured textbook method)
1/2 tsp IDY (Fleischmans)
1 tsp salt

Dissolved salt & water in KA bowl with dough hook attached, added IDY and all but 1/4 cup flour, mixed on stir speed 2 min to combine, covered for 20 minute rest, added last 1/4 C flour, wet kneaded on 1st speed for 8 minutes.  "poured" into greased 10 x 14 in black steel pan and spread, covered, proofed for 2 1/2 hours (prob around 80 degrees), prebaked on lowest rack of 500 degree preheated oven for 9 minutes, topped, then back on same rack for 7 minutes.  As soon as it stopped bubbling and sizzling, removed to cooling rack.
At the rest period I noticed this dough, if you can call it that, resembled the minnow bait we made as kids it was so wet, which was my second thought.  My first thought was "this ain't gonna work".  I was afraid this batter would just displace and push all the oil out from underneath once it hit the pan and I was expecting failure, so what the heck - I put the pan in the fridge for 5 minutes, then spread Smart Balance margarine all over the bottom.  I hoped was this would keep it under the dough to help achieve a fry, which worked, but it also added a flavor component and left the bottom greasy.  This was the only thing I did not measure, but it was 2 Tablespoons or so, maybe more.  I forgot to take the temp of the finished dough, but all previous experiments were 10 degrees less than the starting water temp.
Spreading this structural adhesive in the pan was a challenge at first.  With oiled and moistened finger tips I found just nudging it ever so lightly about an eighth-quarter inch at a time did the trick and then only took a few minutes.  No spring back with this goop.   
We have one tiny room in the house that gets so warm we keep the heat register closed.  I opened it up, bumped the thermostat up 2 degrees and put the pan in to proof and rush, and I would say this room is then quickly a good 10 degrees above the rest of the house.  Surprise!  It actually did rise and at 2 1/2 hours, some largish alveoles were visible at the surface although not actually bubbled up.
The texture of this test was the winner for me, not bready in any way which was one goal, and a nice mix of crisp, chewy, tender and moist.  The flavor of the dough remains a question mark as it was marred by all that margarine and I completely covered it with Casalinga, so couldn't really find any unflavored dough to taste even though I deconstructed a few slices.  But I would say it was pleasant and am encouraged enough to use this basic recipe to continue experimentation under unrushed and more controlled conditions now that I know it works and was my best pizza to date.
We shall see...
Hog

 

 

Offline steverino

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2009, 02:03:40 PM »
Hog -
Looks freakin' delicioso!  Nice crumb, and looks like nice crunch too.  Getting ready to head out for movie and "cow and bug"....

Best,

steve

Online jeff v

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2009, 04:13:31 PM »
Sure Jeff, as a newbie I am honored you asked.  This turned into one of those rush jobs and I do not yet have a scale.  In each successive experiment I have been raising the hydration, and if I understand the math correctly, this was something around 90%.

3/4 Cup + 1 Tblsp + 2 tsp water (95 degrees)
1 3/4 Cups flour (KAAP Organic, measured textbook method)
1/2 tsp IDY (Fleischmans)
1 tsp salt

Dissolved salt & water in KA bowl with dough hook attached, added IDY and all but 1/4 cup flour, mixed on stir speed 2 min to combine, covered for 20 minute rest, added last 1/4 C flour, wet kneaded on 1st speed for 8 minutes.  "poured" into greased 10 x 14 in black steel pan and spread, covered, proofed for 2 1/2 hours (prob around 80 degrees), prebaked on lowest rack of 500 degree preheated oven for 9 minutes, topped, then back on same rack for 7 minutes.  As soon as it stopped bubbling and sizzling, removed to cooling rack.
At the rest period I noticed this dough, if you can call it that, resembled the minnow bait we made as kids it was so wet, which was my second thought.  My first thought was "this ain't gonna work".  I was afraid this batter would just displace and push all the oil out from underneath once it hit the pan and I was expecting failure, so what the heck - I put the pan in the fridge for 5 minutes, then spread Smart Balance margarine all over the bottom.  I hoped was this would keep it under the dough to help achieve a fry, which worked, but it also added a flavor component and left the bottom greasy.  This was the only thing I did not measure, but it was 2 Tablespoons or so, maybe more.  I forgot to take the temp of the finished dough, but all previous experiments were 10 degrees less than the starting water temp.
Spreading this structural adhesive in the pan was a challenge at first.  With oiled and moistened finger tips I found just nudging it ever so lightly about an eighth-quarter inch at a time did the trick and then only took a few minutes.  No spring back with this goop.   
We have one tiny room in the house that gets so warm we keep the heat register closed.  I opened it up, bumped the thermostat up 2 degrees and put the pan in to proof and rush, and I would say this room is then quickly a good 10 degrees above the rest of the house.  Surprise!  It actually did rise and at 2 1/2 hours, some largish alveoles were visible at the surface although not actually bubbled up.
The texture of this test was the winner for me, not bready in any way which was one goal, and a nice mix of crisp, chewy, tender and moist.  The flavor of the dough remains a question mark as it was marred by all that margarine and I completely covered it with Casalinga, so couldn't really find any unflavored dough to taste even though I deconstructed a few slices.  But I would say it was pleasant and am encouraged enough to use this basic recipe to continue experimentation under unrushed and more controlled conditions now that I know it works and was my best pizza to date.
We shall see...
Hog

 

 

Thanks for the insight, and I am looking forward to your next experiments. This last pizza looked like a big leap forward from your previous attempts-should get fun now huh?! Regadring flavor-I have never had either of the pizzas metioned in this thread, so I can't be of help there. However there are some pretty simple things you can do to get a more flavorful crusts if that's the way you want to go.

The texture you mentioned is key for me too, I don't like when a Sicillian has a dense bready texture. I may steal some of this recipe (particularly the prebake) and give it a go if you don't mind. If I do I'll post my observations.

Jeff

P.S. Throw that Smart Balance away-it's almost plastic!   >:D  :-D


Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2009, 12:20:36 PM »
Yea Jeff, the Smart Balance inspiration was not a good one.  I didn't even know we had it the fridge which should have been an indicator of it's age.  But as it is 36% plastic by weight (not including the container) I doubt age was the factor, but it's lack of past use should have been a clue.  By all means please have your way with any part of this experiment!  I selfishly look forward to any experiences you might share to aid in my stumbling attempts.
Steverino, hope your dinner was killer and once the protein and iodine aftereffects wear off I'm hoping the pizza crave quickly takes over.  And thanks to both for the kind words and help.
But now I have a dilemma.  Reading about but never having eaten a NY or Neapolitan (I'm geographically challenged), yesterday's lunch was at the closest of the few places in the area that claim this style.  I would guess that in comparison to those created by the many accomplished pizzaiolos here like you two and the known best in class pizzarias the pies we had would rate 5 of 10.  But we were both blown away!  Whoda thunk such a thin and sparsely topped pizza could be so uniquely tasty and immediately addictive.  And I thought I knew a thing or two about pizza...fuggitaboutit!!!!
So I will continue with this experiment but have already commandeered a never used but decent quality pizza stone from my parent's to go with my never used department store type stone I received as a gift years ago and have been scouring the NY thread.  I can only imagine what a true NY or Nea pie is like but I plan to attempt to find out.
The fun continues...
Hog

Offline GIBBY

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2009, 05:31:05 PM »
Steverino
No problemo and you guys have yourself a great time and enjoy your cow and bugs.  Had me some good cow a couple of days ago myself.  But last night it was another pizza and I think I am finally on to something.  Not sure what though.  It does seem to have some of the qualities of a Loui's, except on steroids.  I actually really liked it.  Crisp and chewy, then airy and tender, then a bit soft and mushy on the very top.  Didn't absorb all the pan lube like the prev doughs, so was a bit greasy.  I'll be tweaking on this version and see what happens.
Later
Hog
We did pies yesterday afternoon and came out pretty well. Pepperoni, pepp with ham, pepp with mushrooms,green peppers,onions,tomatoes. Six pies total. The dough still needs some tweaking. It might need more yeast or less flour. My mom suggested a teaspoon of sugar to help the yeast along. Getting closer every time. I might need to try the butter in the bottom instead of veg oil or olive. I was thinking I might heat the butter and take out most of the fat-kinda like drawn butter for lobster and see what happens. Might have the buttery taste. Buddy's is a little greasy but that's part of the charm.  My wife and I probably need to work on the rising and proofing to get those larger air bubbles in the dough. I'm currently looking at this shredder  called the King Kutter to do the cheese. Costs about $120 or so depending where you buy it. I can see that this home pizza thing will get big in the summer-probably close to 15 folks over and I'm lazy so the shredder will fit the bill. And maybe a new mixer ;D :chef:

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2009, 07:05:05 PM »
Your pizzas sound great Gibby.  But why spend $120 on a cheese shredder when you have all those guests over for your homemade pizza?  Give each one a turn for a few minutes with a hand shredder and you can still be lazy, save some $$, and could be sorta fun.  Make 'em work for their pizza, I say!
As far as the dough goes, I'm thinking high hydration is part of the formula after that last pie.  I'm starting to like my sauce but not happy with any cheeses tried yet.  We'll see what the next one comes out like.   :'( :pizza: :o

Offline GIBBY

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2009, 07:55:50 PM »
Gives me an excuse to spend some money, and besides, my relatives are slow and I'm really impatient. Still need a scale too!! ;)


Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2009, 10:43:03 AM »
Steverino, Gibby, MWTC and anyone else in the Detroit area, check out this post.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8012.0.html

Might be worth a looksee.
Hog

Online jeff v

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2009, 08:11:15 PM »
PizzaHog,

Glad to see you trying the NY/Neo pizza.

I made the recipe you shared, and it was very good. A "conversation" with my wife about the volume of pics on our camera led to her deleteing everything including the photo evidence of this experiment.  :'(  I did do a couple of things different that I wanted to share...

I used cold flour, ice cold water and after the time in the mixer I stuck the dough in the fridge for 48 hours. This really helped with the flavor of the crust. Also since I was all out of Smart Balance  :P I used butter to grease the pan which was good, but it toasted more than fried-guess I didn't use enough.

Anywho thanks for sharing the recipe, and I will be making it or something like it again.

Best,

Jeff

Edited to fix typo.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 01:30:30 PM by jeff v »

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2009, 12:02:28 PM »
Quote
I made the recipe you shared, and it was very good. A "coversation" with my wife about the volume of pics on our camera led to her deleteing everything including the photo evidence of this experiment.  I did do a couple of things different that I wanted to share...

I used cold flour, ice cold water and after the time in the mixer I stuck the dough in the fridge for 48 hours. This really helped with the flavor of the crust. Also since I was all out of Smart Balance   I used butter to grease the pan which was good, but it toasted more than fried-guess I didn't use enough.

Cool Jeff! (pun intended)
Using cold flour and water is a new one for me, but I will definitely try this now on the next test along with the 48 hours in the fridge.  I hope you don't mind a few questions:  Did it rise while in the fridge or after removal?  If after, approx how long between removal and baking?  Lastly, what does the use of cold ingredients cause to happen? 
I will prob try the butter also now that I know it did not burn, maybe 1-2 tablespoons.
Thanks for the help and improvements, and if you need some Smart Balance just let me know, I have half a tub I would be happy to send :-[.
Hog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2009, 02:22:01 PM »
Hog,

Before pizza I made quite a bit of bread, and the book where I first learned about this technique is "The Bread Bakers Apprentice" by Peter Reinhart where he explains and gives a recipe for Pain à l’ancienne. He goes into great detail regarding the science of it, but basically this- The ice cold ingredients and then right into the fridge delay fermentation, and allow enzymatic activity to turn more of the starch in the flour to sugar making a more complex, better tasting bread or pizza. To my knowledge other than using a starter it gives the most flavor to your dough. It's a interesting read.

The dough will rise in the fridge some, but not much. I leave it out long enough to take the chill off, and let it ferment some 2-4 hours depeding on the temp of your kitchen.

Hope this helps,

Jeff



Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2009, 07:04:15 PM »
Jeff
What an excellent technique and one I was looking for and sorely need.  Texture has been improving but flavor has always been lacking.  So I look forward to giving this a try.
Thanks again for your help,
Hog

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2009, 11:18:15 PM »
Thanks to Jeff V the best pizza yet and IMHO solidly in the very good category.  Same formulation but used Jeff's cold method and fermentation and 2 tblspns butter in pan, kneaded 5 vs 8 minutes and prebaked 8 vs 9 minutes.  Browner, crunchier, tenderer, better all around.  Still has a wide open crumb but is more consistent.  By comparison the previous version seemed "raw" and this one has some really nice flavor.  Finally!  I'll be using this cold method again for sure. 
The butter is good but I will use something more neutral in flavor, and less of it, next time. 

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2009, 11:26:06 AM »
Hog,

Wow! That looks fantastic!

Glad to hear that you liked that method. Unfortunately I have some crazy travel right now for work now otherwise I'd be mixing up a batch of that now. Out of curiosity what kind of pan are you using?

Thanks,

Jeff

Offline GIBBY

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2009, 11:45:14 AM »
  I brought two leftover pies to work last Monday ( made on Sunday) and let my coworkers know if they want some have some. My coordinator told me to go talk to a guy in another department because he had a bakery/pizzeria at one time. He tried it and said he really liked it but I told him it isn't quite where I want it. I told him I was trying to replicate Buddy's. So I quizzed him on a few things and here's a few tidbits. 1. Don't mix the dough too long. As soon as it starts coming off the sides of the mixing bowl-STOP! The longer you mix it, the denser the dough and resulting crust will be. Then immediately put the dough portions into the oiled or greased pans and spread the dough then let it rise in the pan. When ready, punch the dough down add your stuff then bake. 2. Make sure your pans are seasoned. He says to use Crisco and bake 'em at 500 for about 15 minutes or so. I'm doing mine as I type this on the gas grill outside so I don't stink up the house. 3. Make sure you use top quality ingredients especially the pepperoni which he says will impart a good flavor into the pie.  

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2009, 01:41:32 PM »
Jeff
Your tip on the whole cold thing just rocks!  This dough was superior to the last version in every way and I will be trying your method on the next NY attempt too.  Thanks again!  In fact, this last version with the butter is good enough on it's own that I plan to try it with garlic or compound butter / no or little toppings sorta like crazy bread or focaccia.  I found the butter flavor a bit over the top for my taste on pizza, plus a bit salty, so I will try unsalted on the crazy bread.   
The pan I use is 10 x 14 inch steel with some thin black paint like coating, some of which came off the first time I used it (my fault).  Now that it has some seasoning that has stopped.  They are 6.95 at the local rest supply (they have other sizes also) and came with instructions from Hillside Metal Wear Co, but I could not find these pans on their website, only round ones, so no real clue who makes them.  If you can't locate or need one, send me a PM and it would be my pleasure to arrange to get one or more to you.  I do a lot of Fedex ground shipping, have a discounted account, and would guess shipping to be in the under $10 range within the US if you are interested. 
Gibby, sounds like your pizzas are a hit.  I have never used Crisco for anything but that may be the unflavored pan lube to try next.  I am hoping you will post your recipes someday so I can give it a whirl!  I am still trying to find peperoni like my Mom used back in the day.  As I recall, it was darker, a bit more shriveled, and harder to cut than the Margherita brand, which is all I have been able to find locally (not counting Eckrich or Armor grocery types).  That stuff really had some zing to it.  There is a tiny Italian market near the folk's house that I will try next.  If all else fails it's off to the Eastern Market in Detroit.  I have not been down there in decades but is all I can think of.
Next experiments will be lowering hydration a bit at a time to see where that takes it.  This dough does have some Buddy's qualities so I am hoping I am on the right track.  I also noticed the crispness on the bottom lessens some even as the pizza cools on a rack and I cannot imagine any commercial operation working with a dough this wet or difficult.  I think I have to go pick up a Buddy's or Loui's soon as well since I have eaten so many of my own tests I am starting to lose touch with what I was after when I started!  Then again this last pie was so good that if I never clone the original I won't lose any sleep over it, but may gain some waist size instead.  Oh well, a small price to pay...
Hog
 
   

Offline GIBBY

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Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2009, 10:20:08 AM »
PizzaHog, Yesterday my son and I hit downtown Detroit for a few attractions-namely the Autorama and the StarTrek exhibit at the science center. On the way home we stopped and had pizza at Buddy's in Warren. This is part of the investigative thing I was talking about in one of my first posts. I asked the waitress what type of Margherita brand peeperoni they used after I gingerly told her we are trying to make it at home. I gave her the lame excuse that we live far away and frequent trips to their location was not possible. First she said it was just a pork-beef blend, according to her boss. Then I told her that the pepperoni they use is not the same that I had bought. So she went and wrote down the number off the box.
 
Margherita brand

Coarse Grind Pepperoni

# 38616-31329

 I haven't gone to Rosseli's in a couple weeks so I check on this further when I do. The girl at Rosseli's said it was in stick form but the girl at Buddy's said it comes in bags. I can't imagine they would have to slice all that pepperoni by hand.On my next to Buddy's trip I'll either work on the blend of cheese or the flour/dough mixture. We had a large pep/ham pizza, small antipasto and 2 pops and the bill was 28.00 not including tip which was very generous considering the pest I made of myself.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 10:25:12 AM by GIBBY »


 

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