"Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's

[PizzaHog]

Hey Gibby
Hopefully you are on to something since my peperoni searches have all ended in vain.  Every single Italian market I have visited has been a bust, they all carry Margherita fine grind and little else.
When you next go to Roselli's consider a stop at S Serra Cheese which is only a mile down Groesbeck.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8012.msg68928.html#msg68928
Their whole milk Mozzarella is way tastier than any other dry mozz I have tried and their prices are wholesale and within a dime of Roselli's.  Plus they sell by the one pound package so if you try something and don't like it you won't end up with 9 pounds left over. 
I also tried Tomato & Basil Pizzeria and was pleasantly surprised.  They make NY style round and it's good!  They have an unadvertised special on a 14' one topping for 6.99 and their calzones are over the top.  5.99 for the menu choices and 6.49 for build your own with sauce, cheese, plus 4 toppings of your choice.  I went crazy and tried meatball, sausage, onion and ricotta and this thing was so huge and heavy all I could do was shake my head and laugh.  They are on the west side of Van Dyke just south of 31 mile in a little strip mall next to Subway should you ever find yourself in the mood.  Carry out only or sit at the one little table.

[pjbear05]

Greetings again from FL.  The second attempt with the black enamel coated steel broiler pan was almost perfect:

Switched from butter/olive oil mix in the dough to oil only.  Good consistency, but lost the flavor element.
20 minute warm followed by 10 hour cold rise in bowl, after mixing and kneading in the Cuisinart.

Oil/tub margarine for greasing the pan?  Hell no, butter on a cold pan before laying out the dough-only way to go.

Pre-baking the crust made HUGE differrence, along with a quick-90 second-transition from out of the oven, piling on, and back in.

My only beef was the crust still didn't have that real wide open airy look like in the pictures here.  I think that's a time/temp factor.  I did 5 min pre-bake/15 minute cook at 475, but Pizzahogg is onto something using 500, so I'll give that a shot.  Any other ideas?

Wife's birthday next Friday (3/20), she wants and will get a Hawaiian style for dinner.

[PizzaHog]

My only beef was the crust still didn't have that real wide open airy look like in the pictures here.  I think that's a time/temp factor.  I did 5 min pre-bake/15 minute cook at 475, but Pizzahogg is onto something using 500, so I'll give that a shot.  Any other ideas?

Hey PJ
I'm not sure what your formula is but I believe it is the really wet almost batter dough that is one key to the open crumb and texture, along with a rise right in the pan just prior to baking.  In fact, I pan the dough right after mixing then cover and throw the whole thing into the fridge to cold ferment.  Then take it out to pan rise in a really warm place about 2-3 hours before baking.  I can tell when the pan rise is complete when I see those large "bubbles" have formed here and there just beneath the surface.  I am just guessing but I would say it rises 50% in the fridge, then almost triples during the pan rise.  The prebake time I use is actually based on the type of cheese and how much time it can take before burning or overcooking.
Birthday wishes to your better half and hope she has a happy Hawaiian!
Hog 

[pjbear05]

Hey Hog,

OK thanks, I went the opposite way all around here. Not a real wet dough, and no rise in the pan before pre-baking.  Ditto on the initial rise-I put the bowl in a cold oven, then nudged the thermostat just so it turned on-maybe 100-and let it sit for 20 minutes, then 10 hours in the refridgerator.  It didnt look like much coming out of the oven, but was inflated like a balloon after the cold ferment.

My initial tries were done in a deep round aluminum pan which and only so-so.  That was before I got on the baoards and started getting a better education. I remembered I still had this old pan that had a metal grid overlay which we used for broiling in the oven, and after the grid was ruined I never threw the pan out.  Good thing-it was black enameled steel, and the forum members had that right too.

Damn, I love this board!

[PizzaHog]

Hey Gibby
I picked up a few sticks of Margherita peperoni from Roselli's yesterday and it looks like a fairly coarse grind to me.  I checked and there are no ID numbers on the packaging so I took this photo so you can compare to what you bought in sliced form and see if there is diff.  Let us know how they compare if you would be so kind and maybe we will know if our search has ended.
Thanks
Hog

[GIBBY]

  PizzaHog, We must have missed each other 'cause my wife and I were at Roselli's on Saturday also. As far as the pepperoni goes, the number I gave in an earlier thread is the UPC code number on the side of the box that the waitress at Buddy's wrote down and gave me. (WHEW)  I asked the girl at Roselli's if they carried it and they do not at this time. Because I have so much left over from my previous shopping SNAFU, I will have to wait until it's almost gone before I give them a call and see if they can special order it or start carrying it in the store full time. My Margherita pepperoni is about the size of a half dollar where the Buddy's pepperoni is about the size of a quater. The sticks you bought seem to have that casing on the outside if I'm not mistakin' or is it just a dried out layer of pepperoni?. Did you take it off before using it? Also, mine is about 1/2 or more as thick as the Buddy's slices.  The picture is hard to compare because mine is so thin. Buddy's seems to have more taste and a little more texture than mine.

[PizzaHog]

Too funny Gibby.  Sorry we missed each other. 
There is a thin casing but it isn't noticeable when cut or eaten and it's about 1 3/8" diameter so who knows...

[pjbear05]

  HELL!  Almost had it made for Karen's birthday pizza, until I let the pre-bake of the crust go too far-the pan was on the bottom oven rack, big mistake there.  I ended up with an overdone crust in the end.  A shame, 'cause up to that point it was perfect. Oh well, it was still edible, and it did get eaten

Hogg, your notes re a second rise in the pan was dead on.  All blown up like a balloon after the second rise, and the texture after baking was very close to the pictures in the thread.

Well, back to Doris' (local Italian market) for more supplies, and will try again in couple of weeks.

[PizzaHog]

PJ, sounds like your heading in the right direction for your ideal pie.  Hopefully you will get there sooner than it is taking me or your wife will still be lookin' for that pizza on her next birthday.
Well, tweaks on the formula for this one did not yield any major changes.  Lowered the hydration a notch and only diff was seemed a bit easier to spread and pan, so will continue on this path.  Was considering Crisco for pan lube but something about hydrogenated cottonseed oil just does not seem, well, like an actual foodstuff.  So tried 4 tsp unsalted butter which was better than reg salted and I think I could have used less and will try that next time.  But some kind of shortening may still end up being the way to go.
I am on a pesto kick so this pie was a half and half.

[jeff v]

Hog,

Those are look great! The pesto and kalamata look like a nice change too.

Besides the butter any other major changes for the next batch?

Jeff

[PizzaHog]

Hey Jeff
I am actually quite happy with this dough as is and have filed it as my first winner.  2 1/2 hours from mix to oven or days in the fridge with your metodo del Valentino all work and I love the crumb and textures.  But to try and get the Detroit clone, I plan to keep lowering hydration.  I am guessing there is a sweet spot out there that is still not bready, but not as wide open as this, which is the target.
Otherwise, still trying diff cheeses and parbake/bake times to nail down the caramelized cheese edge thing.  Some of the Det's have the cheese black as my last one did, others catch it while still brown which I prefer.  Plus I need a more intense pepperoni.  These pies are so loaded that every pep I have tried tends to get lost. I have finally found some diff brands that are labeled "spicy", but they are only avail pre-sliced and frozen in 25 lb boxes.  Even if these are the ticket, that's a whole lotta pepperoni to use up, and if not, that's way too much to suffer thru.  Hmmm, maybe I can use a mallet to pound additional fennel seeds and red pepper flakes into the slices.  Did I say that?  Never mind.
Looking forward to your next foray into this style.  Until then, I'll just keep eatin' the experiments.
Hog

[GIBBY]

PizzaHog, Sometimes having someone else do research works wonders! My wife looked elsewhere and found a recipe (I don't know where it's at right now) using the sponge method. (I heard of it on this website though). It seems to work out pretty well-better than previous attempts. NO EGGS!! And one batch used warmed up beer instead of water. At the time she made it, I was in the basement. When I came up the stairs, a flood of memories hit me 'cause the smell is just like Buddy's. I mean exactley like Buddy's. The dough was also much less dense than before so I beleive we are on to something. More opaque and less like a soft pretzel. Might have to adjust the yeast. Maybe more BEER!!  I can't see Buddy's fooling around too much with rising and proofing and refrigerating and all that, so mixing then rising in the pan has to be a key point for speed and profits. Ours looked ALOT like the Buddy's dough-in-pan pics earlier in this thread.

.........onward.

[GIBBY]

Hey Jeff
I am actually quite happy with this dough as is and have filed it as my first winner.  2 1/2 hours from mix to oven or days in the fridge with your metodo del Valentino all work and I love the crumb and textures.  But to try and get the Detroit clone, I plan to keep lowering hydration.  I am guessing there is a sweet spot out there that is still not bready, but not as wide open as this, which is the target.
Otherwise, still trying diff cheeses and parbake/bake times to nail down the caramelized cheese edge thing.  Some of the Det's have the cheese black as my last one did, others catch it while still brown which I prefer.  Plus I need a more intense pepperoni.  These pies are so loaded that every pep I have tried tends to get lost. I have finally found some diff brands that are labeled "spicy", but they are only avail pre-sliced and frozen in 25 lb boxes.  Even if these are the ticket, that's a whole lotta pepperoni to use up, and if not, that's way too much to suffer thru.  Hmmm, maybe I can use a mallet to pound additional fennel seeds and red pepper flakes into the slices.  Did I say that?  Never mind.
Looking forward to your next foray into this style.  Until then, I'll just keep eatin' the experiments.
Hog

I think that the home ovens we use have a real impact on the crispy-but-not-burnt cheese edges we are looking for. If I ever get the cash to buy a scale, I'll most likely use less cheese which will need less time or lower temp in my oven.  fantes.com/seasoning has a section about seasoning the pan using peanut oil instead of butter,veg oil or crisco due to it's high smoking point. I still have over 12.5 lbs of pepperoni to use 'till I find and order the other margherita pepperoni.

[PizzaHog]

I can't see Buddy's fooling around too much with rising and proofing and refrigerating and all that, so mixing then rising in the pan has to be a key point for speed and profits.

Yea Gibby, that makes sense, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did fridge it.  Not so much for flavor but so they can make and pan dough by the boatload and pull it out as needed.

I think that the home ovens we use have a real impact on the crispy-but-not-burnt cheese edges we are looking for. If I ever get the cash to buy a scale, I'll most likely use less cheese which will need less time or lower temp in my oven.  fantes.com/seasoning has a section about seasoning the pan using peanut oil instead of butter,veg oil or crisco due to it's high smoking point. I still have over 12.5 lbs of pepperoni to use 'till I find and order the other margherita pepperoni.

Not sure yet on the cheese thing.  Seems clear they dress the pie and then whatever their bake time and temp is works out for the cheese.  My guess is these are baked in good old deck ovens which I believe tend to bake at 550, some as high as 650, and of course could be lower.  Since we can hit 550 and a bit higher with a stone in a home oven, I hoping this can still be duplicated.  My experiments so far at 550 and with every diff cheese tried tell me a bake time under 10 mins is necessary for the cheese to come out right.  So yea, maybe a lower temp or a dough that bakes up faster or the right cheese...
I have used EVOO, margarine, and butter at 550 and a 15 min bake with no smoking/burning issues.  Not sure what peanut oil would bring to the party.  I am also pretty sure now that the Margherita stick pepperoni at Roselli's is the course grind if you want to pick up a stick and check it out for yourself.  BTW, it is Roselli's that sells the 2 other brands of "spicy" pepperoni I mentioned in an earlier post, so maybe...
Beer in the dough?  That sounds good to me! 
Hog

[gschwim]

I've been away from this site for quite awhile and imagine my surprise to learn, on my return, that my little question about Detroit-style pizza has now reached five pages!  Anyway, I'm back and ready to experiment.

Reading all the entries posted during my absence, the most useful insight I found was the crunch crust being caused by the cheese reaching the side of the pan.  Now, as to the "crunch" on the bottom of the crust:  Before putting the dough in the pan, dump in a generous dose of olive oil.  (I keep olive oil in a restaurant-type ketchup/mustard dispenser and just squirt it in - lots more fun than pouring!)  Then grab a "paintbrush" and just slather it around.  The idea is to fry more than bake, the crust.  And the olive oil, not mixed into the dough, adds a nice, light flavor accent, tastier and more subtle than butter.

[madymo3d]

I was just talking to a good friend this morning about when he worked at Buddy's back in high school. Must've been over 20 years ago. He said they'd start making the dough about 8 in the morning and continue until about 11. And that's all the dough they would make for the day. They used iced cold water (like with actual ice cubes to cool it down) and cold flour. After mixing it went straight to the tray and not in the fridge. So at lunch time they'd start using the earlier doughs that started at 8 and got done by 9. He said by the end of the day the yeast are pretty much exhausted. If they just dropped the pan a few inches or piled on the toppings the dough would deflate. I didn't ask him about the actual dough formula. Doubt he'd remember it. He did said they used a spice pack, oil and sugar.

I was never much into the Detroit style pizza because I thought it was too greasy and crust is too bready. But reading through this thread made me want to go to Buddy's and then make my own Detroit style!

[Pete-zza]

madymo3d,

For a long time, Buddy's made reference at its website to using a "double knead" process when preparing its dough. When I checked today, I could not find that reference anymore. However, some time ago, in the opening post of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31753.html#msg31753, a link was provided to the Buddy's website, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm, that mentions the double knead feature. As noted at Reply 5 in the above thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842, I attempted to get more information on that process. However, I am still not certain of what the process actually entails. Do you think your friend would remember that process? And do you think that your friend would remember the type of flour used, that is, all-purpose flour, bread flour, etc., along with the name of the supplier or miller? It would also be interesting to know if the flour was bromated.

Peter

[madymo3d]

Peter, my friend doesn't remember the type of flour they used or the ratios of ingredients. He never mentioned double kneading. I wonder if Buddy's just uses an autolyse and calls it double knead as a marketing ploy. Kind of like double churned ice cream or slow roasted coffee.

I misspoke about oil being in the dough. He said they oiled the pan and lightly oiled the dough when pressing it out. He said the dough is quite hard to press out, not like the wet dough discussed in this thread. I haven't tried the recipe in this thread yet, but I get the impression recipe shown in this thread is a step beyond batter and not quite firm dough.

[PizzaHog]

Had an opportunity to visit Buddy's a couple of times since last posting so decided to use this to reacquaint myself with this pie see what I could find out.  Between the literature available there, what I could get the employees to reveal, and my observations (some of this is not new, but maybe confirmed):
The pies were not nearly as greasy as I seem to remember in regard to the dough.  The bottom crust was fairly dry and the interior was not all that moist. 
Cheese is a brick or brick blend, but has way more flavor than any brick I have yet tried.
No oil or sugar in their dough.
At the not original location visited, the pies are baked for 13 min in a conveyor oven at 375.

I was just talking to a good friend this morning about when he worked at Buddy's back in high school. Must've been over 20 years ago. He said they'd start making the dough about 8 in the morning and continue until about 11. And that's all the dough they would make for the day. They used iced cold water (like with actual ice cubes to cool it down) and cold flour. After mixing it went straight to the tray and not in the fridge. So at lunch time they'd start using the earlier doughs that started at 8 and got done by 9. He said by the end of the day the yeast are pretty much exhausted. If they just dropped the pan a few inches or piled on the toppings the dough would deflate. I didn't ask him about the actual dough formula. Doubt he'd remember it. He did said they used a spice pack, oil and sugar.

I was never much into the Detroit style pizza because I thought it was too greasy and crust is too bready. But reading through this thread made me want to go to Buddy's and then make my own Detroit style!

Right on, madymo3d, as the pie I had that was made at around 9 pm was indeed deflated.  The crumb seems to be a just a bit past bready to me though.
So my best guesses here is a hydration between my first attempts (definitely bready) and last attempts (way too open crumb and too moist), also targeting the lower temp and bake time.  This may help with the cheese crust and bottom baking to a golden brown rather than dark or even blackish.  Although I have tried a cold method, and a same day method, I never combined the two so that may be warranted.  A few seasoning cycles for the pan and a more minimal amount of pan lube, prob oil, seems right.  I am not sure what effect "lightly oiling the dough when pressing it out" might have but that may be worth a try to find out.  Once I get off the NY style kick, I will see where this leads.
Photos of the target attached.
Hog


   

[madymo3d]

PizzaHog, what is your current targeted hydration? The recipe you gave in reply #63 had a hydration rate of over 92% if my calculations are correct (1 cup flour = 125g and 1 cup water = 236g). I've never made a crust with that high of hydration.

My friend said he oiled his fingers (dipped in a bowl of oil) and pressed it out. Not sure if it's just to keep dough from sticking to the finger or to add a thin layer of oil to prevent sauce/topping from soaking through.

Are you still on planning to pre-bake the dough? Sounds like Buddy's just bakes straight through if it's a conveyer, but also heated above and below (I'm assuming that's how conveyor oven works) which home oven doesn't do, at least not mine.