"Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's

[PizzaHog]

Hey madymo

PizzaHog, what is your current targeted hydration? The recipe you gave in reply #63 had a hydration rate of over 92% if my calculations are correct (1 cup flour = 125g and 1 cup water = 236g).

With this additional info, I am now thinking 70- 75% to see what that is like since my previous experiments in the low and high 60's were all too bready and the 90% is way over the top.   

My friend said he oiled his fingers (dipped in a bowl of oil) and pressed it out. Not sure if it's just to keep dough from sticking to the finger or to add a thin layer of oil to prevent sauce/topping from soaking through.

This is pretty much what I have to do with the 90% dough to spread it after I "pour" it into the pan, although I both oil and wet my fingers to prepare for that sticky battle.  If Buddy's also has to do this, it implies to me that a somewhat sticky higher than typical 60's hydration might be used. 

Are you still on planning to pre-bake the dough? Sounds like Buddy's just bakes straight through if it's a conveyer, but also heated above and below (I'm assuming that's how conveyor oven works) which home oven doesn't do, at least not mine.

Not unless I have to.  The parbake turned out to be necessary step to avoid burning the toppings to nuclear waste at a 500 degree 15 minute bake with the 90%+ batter.  My thought now is to find a hydration level that will bake up at a time and temp closer to what Buddy's uses, which will hopefully avoid the parbake, get the cheese and bottom to that nice crunchy golden brown, and end up with a not too bready crumb.  Heatwise, I agree with the top and bottom as you suggest.  Even when these pies were being baked many years ago, I would assume they were using a commercial oven like a Baker's Pride or whatever, which still provides top heat that our home ovens lack.  To improve this situation for my NY style attempts, I have managed to attain equal heat from above and below using the stone above and below method I learned here with a little tin foil mod.  So I plan to try the same set up when I get back to this attempt.

I've never made a crust with that high of hydration.

Me neither.  But the crumb, texture, moistness, and lack of density for its thickness that results is quite tasty in IMHO and unique for a pizza, at least I have never had a pizza crust like it before.  One downside is it must go onto a cooling rack and even then its crispy bottom still goes soft after enough time.  But it reheats and regains its crisp really well.  The other issue is spreading the glue like batter.  If your up for that fight, you might want to give it a try.  It is now a favorite around here, although it will have to wait its turn as the NY style is still taking up all my pizza time.
Thanks for the insights!
Hog
 

[madymo3d]

I gave it a try last night. Since 90% hydration really scared me as being too difficult to handle, I used 80%. Rest of your formula remained the same (1/2 tsp yeast, 1 tsp salt). I took some liberties with the mixing and "kneading" since window pane or finger method of checking dough development was pretty much impossible. Dough consistency surprised me; it really wasn't as sticky/strandy(?) as I thought it would be as it had a skin so it stuck to itself but only little strands stuck to my finger. I was able to rearrange the dough by taking advantage of the skin stickiness. The pan I used was too big (10x15) so it ended up being too thin and I didn't have time to let it rise as much as it should so the rise was very limited. I put the cheese down first, then onion, olive, sauce on top. I forgot to parbake it, but that may not have been necessary. I used 425F on the middle rack until I decided the cheese was browning too quickly so I reduced it to 375 and let it go until the middle started to bubble a bit. Total was close to 20 minutes. In the end it was difficult to tell where crust ended and stoppings began. I suspect some of the cheese didn't melt and dough uncooked.

Result was less than ideal but a good learning experience and I would definitely be trying this again. Kids looked at it and said they didn't want it because we've never had this kind of pizza where fork was necessary and the sauce was on top. But by the end they couldn't have enough because I think the thicker crust compared to NY style was more enjoyable to them.

[PizzaHog]

Cool madymo!  I'm excited that you tried it and the kids actually liked it.
Don't be thrown off by the seemingly thinness of the batter when it goes in the pan.  At 90%, this stuff blows up big time in the pan with a good counter or slightly elevated temp rise, like quadruple or more.  It is ready to bake when large bubbles are visible just beneath the surface here and there, then when baked that big, wide open crumb results.
Yes, there is no "handling" this goop, but after the 20 min autolyse and 8 minutes on lowest speed in the Kitchen Aid with dough hook, gluten development is good to go.  BTW, I no longer hold back any of the flour but just dump it all at the same time. 
Now you have me wanting to make one of these again!  Today it's a small NY style pizza party with yet another experimental formula and it looks like I will be out of town next week for work.  Dang!
Looking forward to your next pizza, whatever that may be.
Hog

[dcuttler]

First I want to thank all who have been posting on this thread I just cannot  express how much it has helped to bake a first rate pizza.

I am 71 years old, and grew up in Detroit where a trip to Buddy’s on Conet and Six Mile road was a real treat. I remember the old timers playing bocchi ball while drinking beer and eating the best pizza in the world. I also must Include Shield’s in there too.

I moved out of the Detroit area in the early 70’s and lived in South Carolina, New Mexico, and since 1981 have lived in the San Francisco Bay area where Pizza just sucks!

Over the years I have tried to replicate Buddy’s Pizza without any real success until recently.

A few weeks ago my wife made a Foccoica which was not too bad; actually it was good because of the crust. I said “this might be a good start for a Buddy’s type of Pizza,” and went on an internet search where I found you guys. You need to understand that I have been searching the internet off and on for years looking for a Detroit style Pizza recipe with no luck until now.

I made my first attempt using my wife’s dough recipe, and let it rise for about 2 hours, then pounded it down and spread it out in a big rectangular pan which was well lubed in olive oil. I let it rise again for another 2 hours, and baked it in the oven for 6 minutes.

This is where this thread helped; I cooked the Pepperoni for a short time in a cast iron skillet and dried them on paper towels, and spread them over the dough. I followed this with a layer of Mozzarella cheese with some Parmesan for a kicker. My son who is a fantastic chef reduced a large can of crushed tomatoes with some added seasoning to pour down the Pizza in 2 strips. We drizzled some more olive oil on top, and baked the Pizza until the cheese was turning a little brown. The results were fantastic. We scarfed up almost the whole tray along with some Sam Adams beer to wash it down.

The next day I took the last square to work and heated it in a toaster oven, and sliced it into pieces for some of my co-workers. Talk about raves, I have been boasting about Detroit pizza for years, and once they tasted it, everyone wanted to know when I was going to bring in a full tray!

I do need to make some minor improvements. I need to add a few minutes to the first bake time to get the crust a little more crisp. I used supermarket pepperoni the first time which was not as flavorful as I would have liked, and it was too thin. Next time I will use Molinari Pepperoni which I just purchased at the Genoa Deli here in Oakland. I had them slice it for me in the exact thickness I wanted. This is a local company that dates back to the 1800’s

I have attached some photos of my first successful pizza. Thanks everyone!

[PizzaHog]

I have attached some photos of my first successful pizza. Thanks everyone!

Very nice pie there and welcome dcuttler!
Yes, there is a wealth of info and help here to share.  I hope you keep us posted on your efforts and progress.
Good Luck
Hog

[zalicious]

So glad you finally found success! Great looking pie.

[Dan400Man]

This is my first post on pizzamaking.com, after a colleague pointed me to the site after we were discussing our pizza faves, and how my homemade attempts always come out dry.

First of all, I can share all the love on this thread when it comes to the "Detroit" style pizza.  Had Loui's last week and Shield's last night.  I've also been known to enjoy a Pizza Papalis pie, especially the spinach pie, but I always come back to the Loui's / Buddy's / Shields trifecta.

I've been making pizza at home for several years now, but *never* like the "Detroit" styles.  Frankly, I just never knew quite where to start.  Needless to say, the homemade pizza has been, well, "acceptable" and the kids eat it up all the same.  (We live in Saginaw now, so we don't have ready access to these pizza palaces of perfection.)

But now, after having spent the last 90 minutes reading through this thread and visiting assorted links, I must say that I feel inspired.

PizzaHog, I've seen your posts on your experiments, and I think you provided a recipe about three or four experiments back.  And you haven't posted on this thread for over a month, so I am wondering if you've got a "final" recipe that you can share in a form that doesn't require cobbling together from a dozen or so postings.   

Am I doomed if I don't have the mixer?  I have a breadmaker that I can use for mixing, but some of the descriptions I've read in this thread mention mixer speed and some other things I didn't understand.  The funds are just not in the family budget right now to invest in this type of equipment.  And when you guys are talking about the scale, I get the sense it's something more than the $5 unit sitting in my cupboard.  (I should probably get off this thread and review the other contents of the site as I'm sure there are "newbie" threads to be found.)

BTW, even though I live in Saginaw, I work in Troy, so the trip out to Roselli's and S Serra's would not be out of the question.

[zalicious]

Your breadmaker will do just fine. Sometimes I mix mine on the dough cycle, sometimes by hand. Old Will Knot has scales for a reasonable price. I purchased mine for about $35. Farm & Fleet carries one for around $25 that I liked a lot.

[Dan400Man]

Your breadmaker will do just fine. Sometimes I mix mine on the dough cycle, sometimes by hand. Old Will Knot has scales for a reasonable price. I purchased mine for about $35. Farm & Fleet carries one for around $25 that I liked a lot.

The stars aligned.  My neighbor across the street had an estate sale yesterday and today, and guess what I picked up for $10?  An Oster stand mixer, with the dough implements!  I could not believe my good fortune!   

No luck on the scale tho.   What features are important on a scale for the type of measuring being done here?  Digital?  What degree of accuracy?  What weight range?  Is there a way to zero the scale after putting an empty container on it?  I checked out the two vendors you mentioned; I thought these would be a lot more expensive.  What is the "add and weigh" feature I'm seeing on a lot of these scales?

Thanks!
- Dan

[PizzaHog]

PizzaHog, I've seen your posts on your experiments, and I think you provided a recipe about three or four experiments back.  And you haven't posted on this thread for over a month, so I am wondering if you've got a "final" recipe that you can share in a form that doesn't require cobbling together from a dozen or so postings.   Wink

Welcome Dan, and sorry for the late reply...
Truth be known, I have temporarily discontinued these experiments and have not yet found the formula that replicates this crust.  I believe I am on the right track but I guess only time will tell once I get back to this style.  I still make this pie frequently and really enjoy it, but it ain't Loui's crust.  The current formula is:
3/4 Cup + 1 Tblsp + 2 tsp water (Cold tap temp)
1 3/4 Cups + 1 Tblspn flour (KAAP, measured textbook method)
1/2 tsp IDY (Fleischmans)
1 tsp sea salt
Organic palm shortening to grease the pan (crisco, butter, marg works too)
Dissolve salt in water in bowl, add flour and sprinkle IDY on top, mix with paddle until incorporated, 20 min rest, knead on lowest speed for 5 min with dough hook, another 20 min rest.  Then dump into greased 10 X 14" black steel pan and spread with oiled or moistened fingers and cover with plastic wrap that has been sprayed with something pamish in the event it contacts the very sticky dough.  Then allow to pan rise until large bubbles are visible just beneath the surface, usually 2-3 hours.  When time allows, I refrigerate all ingredients before mixing, then put the panned dough in the fridge for 24-48 hrs.  Then allow for the same pan rise when taken out.
Pre bake crust alone on bottom rack at 500 for 8 min, then top and back in for another 7 min, remove and onto a cooling rack ASAP.
My best guess and the next actual Det experiment will be 75% hydration and a 425 bake temp with no pre bake.  This may require a wet knead process due to the "C" dough hook issues, but otherwise I plan to follow the same protocol.  If you give this a whirl let us know how you make out.  We Michiganders will get this down sooner or later!

What features are important on a scale for the type of measuring being done here?  Digital?  What degree of accuracy?  What weight range?  Is there a way to zero the scale after putting an empty container on it?

Although I still have not purchased a scale, this is the one I have chosen and will request on the next gift giving occasion http://www.saveonscales.com/product_mw_7001dx.html.  The ability to zero the scale with the bowl on it or after the addition of each ingredient is called the Tare function, which this scale has and is most desirable, as well as more than enough accuracy and capacity at what looks to be a very reasonable price.  Others on the forum have this scale and have given it high marks which is how I found it.

BTW, even though I live in Saginaw, I work in Troy, so the trip out to Roselli's and S Serra's would not be out of the question.

Two of my favorite places for sure and I will be hitting Sera's later today!  Definitely worth the trip from Troy IMHO as cheese freezes well and you could stock up.  In the event you try them and happen to find no one speaks english well (yes, this place is the real deal and this has happened to me on multiple occasions), their Fina table cheese is their version of Fontinella (Prima Sale is the same but not aged), Caciocavallo is similar to Parmesan but melts although remains somewhat chewy, and their fresh mozz is excellent as is their whole milk mozz and provalone.  Remember cash only and don't be surprised if they have to make change out of their pockets and their prices cannot be beat.
Roselli's has the Det pans and yeast cheap, lots of pizza making equipment and ingredients and the best price on peperoni I have found.
Good luck and maybe I will run into you there!
Hog
 

 

[dicepackage]

I converted this to bakers percentages because I hate measuring without a scale.  If anyone knows how to turn this into baker's percentage I would really appreciate it.

Flour  226.37
Water 202.09
IDY (1/2 tsp) 1.57497
Sea Salt (1 tsp) 4.81

[Pete-zza]

I converted this to bakers percentages because I hate measuring without a scale.  If anyone knows how to turn this into baker's percentage I would really appreciate it.

Flour  226.37
Water 202.09
IDY (1/2 tsp) 1.57497
Sea Salt (1 tsp) 4.81

dicepackage,

I did my own conversions of IDY and salt to grams and used those numbers, and the others you posted, in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. This is what I get:

Flour (100%): Water (89.2741%): IDY (0.66532%): Salt (2.46561%): Total (192.40503%):

226.37 g  |  7.98 oz | 0.5 lbs 202.09 g  |  7.13 oz | 0.45 lbs 1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp 5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 435.55 g | 15.36 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A

If I use your exact values and tweak the output of the expanded dough calculating tool, I get the following:

Flour (100%): Water (89.2741%): IDY (0.69442%): Salt (2.12483%): Total (192.09335%):

226.37 g  |  7.98 oz | 0.5 lbs 202.09 g  |  7.13 oz | 0.45 lbs 1.57 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.50 tsp | 0.17 tbsp 4.81 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.00 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 434.85 g | 15.34 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A

Peter

[GIBBY]

Gibby is back in the house. The computer was down for a few months so thats why I haven't been posting in a while. Anywho..If you go back to my first post, I stated that my Godfather used to be the manager at Buddy's. My mom recently seen him and said that I've been on a quest to replicate Buddy's pizza and gave him some details about our methods. He said that the dough needs to be seperated into the veg oiled pans and spread out as soon as the mixing is done. Then you let it rise again then punch it down  and stretch into the corners-that might be the double kneading that was discussed earlier in this thread. The cheese Buddy's uses is Kraft Wisconsin brick. I'm on the prowl now trying to find a source. I'm going to try to get him over on pizza night to show us the fine details which I will pass on to the gang here.  ....GIBBY

[mantacruiser]

I was born and raised in Detroit (actually the NW subs).  I now live in SW Florida and can't find a decent pizza.  I started going to Buddy's (6 Mile and Conant) when I was 6 months old (a very long time ago).  I remember sitting upstairs, looking out the window and watching the men play bocci ball (which I have since learned how to do on the beach), and playing the Everly Brothers on the juke box.  My parents would be there eating pizza and having their bumbas (beer).  As I grew older and worked in Hamtramck, Highland Park, and Detroit, we would go out for lunch and have the much desired pizza and antipasto salads.  I am dying to learn how to replicate Buddy's pizza (Shields would also be acceptable).  I just had Buddy's pizza delivered to me in Florida for a special party I was having to acquaint new Detroiters (Ann Arbor) to the wonders of Detroit.  We also had Sanders hot fudge sundaes and Vernors.  I miss Detroit.  It has gotten too expensive ($70 dollars for 4 pizzas and $70 for shipping) to keep ordering them so I need to learn how to make them.  I have read the forums and feel like I'm a pre-beginner.  I'll keep checking back to see if all of you out there figure it out.

[dicepackage]

Buddy's pizza and Vernors what a great combo to remind you of Michigan mantacruiser.

I normally visit the Point Plaza Buddy's which is not really a sit-down restaurant.  They have the sauce underneath the cheese and pepperonis but at the Hamtramck location (the original location) the sauce is on top.  Since these two are the only ones I have been to I wonder what the standard order is for the sauce.

I added some pictures from the restaurant in the hopes that someone can do something with that information.  Since the thread is on Detroit pizza I attached pictures from two different places.  Anyway the first picture I attached is a Buddy's pizza and the second is a Niki's pizza.

[PizzaHog]

Buddy's pizza and Vernors what a great combo to remind you of Michigan mantacruiser.

Sure is, just throw in a bag of Better Made potato chips and some Kowalski sausage then watch the Lions lose to complete the experience.

I normally visit the Point Plaza Buddy's which is not really a sit-down restaurant.  They have the sauce underneath the cheese

Blasphemy I say!  And this is at an actual Buddy's?  I hope this event was not predicted by Nostradmus for then the end of world as we know it is indeed near  .
Actually, I did notice quite a diff in your photo from Buddy's and mine posted earlier in the thread from their Warren location.  This confirms some lack of consistency going on here from location to location which I guess should come as no surprise but is still a bit disappointing.  I know the Warren location uses a conveyor oven and would guess the old original at 6 & Conant might not.  Oh well, they all must be good since Buddy's continues to get raves and awards.

[dicepackage]

Blasphemy I say!  And this is at an actual Buddy's?  I hope this event was not predicted by Nostradmus for then the end of world as we know it is indeed near  .

No, this picture is blasphemy with the toppings all on top.  I'd like to note that I did not special order my pizza this way.  This was the picture in the Free Press Top 25 Pizzas in Detroit at http://www.freep.com/pizzaphotos.

[crcurrie]

Hi, Detroit pizza lovers!  I grew up a few blocks from Buddy's Rendezvous on the East Side, and have enjoyed Buddy's, Shield's, and, especially, Loui's, ever since.  Now I'm an ex-pat living near Washington, D.C., and long for the chance to enjoy authentic Detroit-style pizza at home, since I can't get anything like it here at a pizzeria.  Every couple years, I google around to see if anyone's posted a Detroit-style pizza recipe online, and this month, for the first time, I found a promising thread.  It was exciting to read all of the posts and see you guys closing in on your goal.  I just hope you keep going 'til you get there!

My specific question for this post is this: Has anyone come up with a lead on the "Kraft Wisconsin Brick cheese" that Buddy's allegedly uses on their pizza?  I couldn't find anything on the Web, and even tried contacting the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board and they could find no information about a Kraft Wisconsin Brick production facility -- although they did provide me with contact information for 53 Wisconsin producers of Brick cheese.  A query to Kraft Foods has thus far produced no response. 

I'm also, like a few others, interested in seeing a current recipe or two, reflecting the best results so far.

Thanks again for all this great research!

Chris

[PizzaHog]

My specific question for this post is this: Has anyone come up with a lead on the "Kraft Wisconsin Brick cheese" that Buddy's allegedly uses on their pizza?  I couldn't find anything on the Web, and even tried contacting the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board and they could find no information about a Kraft Wisconsin Brick production facility -- although they did provide me with contact information for 53 Wisconsin producers of Brick cheese.  A query to Kraft Foods has thus far produced no response. 

Hi Chris
My research for this cheese has also dead ended.  The only mention of Kraft even producing a brick cheese I could ever find is in their Canadian product line, marketed under their Kraft Natural and P'tit Quebec names.  Plus, all the references from Buddy's over the years claim their cheese is made "exclusively" for them, so whatever it is and whoever produces it may be out of our reach.
I have also realized that although I have tried more than a few brick cheeses, I have never tried the real thing.  These softish, very mild to tasteless cheeses bear no resemblance to the descriptions I have read of what Wisconsin brick is all about.  This seems to make sense as I find Buddy's cheese to be way more flavorful and sharp.  So the search will continue locally maybe at some higher end gourmet type shops or even mail order.  This cheesemaker claims to still make the real deal http://www.widmerscheese.com/index.php and I am guessing an aged brick is what we are looking for.
Good luck on your research and I will be posting on the next attempts as soon as work and travel backs off a bit.

[crcurrie]

PizzaHog, last night I received a reply from the Kraft Associate Director of Consumer Affairs.  While her response is a bit cagey, she seems to be telling me that they *do* produce Wisconsin Brick as a "foodservice" item; however, it is not sold to consumers.  I'm surmising that this is the cheese purchased by Buddy's, Loui's, Shields, etc.  I've followed up with her to ask how a restaurant would order this item (I'm assuming through some sort of distributor).  Heck, I have a neighbor who runs a small restaurant around the corner from me, and I might just ask him to experiment with this cheese on his own pizza, if he can get it (and maybe order a little extra for me) ...   I'll post any add'l info I can glean from Kraft.  Looking foward to learning about your next attempts! -- Chris