"Double kneading" for deep-dish pizza.

[gschwim]

I am trying to duplicate "Detroit" pizza such as this:  http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm

Note that one of the "secrets" says, "Carefully double kneading the dough and allowing it to rise for 1 to 1-1/2 hours helps to create Buddy's famous crunchy crust. "

What, exactly is "double kneading" and how does it create a crunchy crust?

Can anyone suggest a recipe?  I'm attaching a photo for reference.

Thanks!

Gene

[Pete-zza]

Gene,

As I understand it, Buddy's classic pizza is a Sicilian deep-dish style square pizza in which the cheese is put down first and then the sauce. Pepperoni is place under the cheese

If I had to guess, I would say that "double kneading" is one of these three possibilities: 1) using an autolyse or similar rest period between the first and second kneads; 2) using a sheeter and running the dough through twice, followed by a 1 to 1 1/2 hour proof which, along with generous oiling of the pan, should produce a crispy, yet tender crust, or 3) using some kind of double arm mixer. Of these three possibilities, I would guess possibility #2 because it seems more consistent with commercial dough production practices and because autolyse is not a common commercial practice and double arm mixers are not common in the U.S. Since I am guessing, I wouldn't be surprised if Buddy's is par-baking the crusts or doing other kinds of things to speed up the baking. I say this because I read a review of Buddy's in which a patron said that it only took about 10 minutes for the pizza ordered to show up at the table. I suppose that it is possible that pre-prepared panned doughs might be used, but if the pies are deep, 10 minutes seems short to me to completely bake the pizzas and get them to patrons.

As for a recipe, you might want to take a look at the Sicilian section of the forum for ideas. My recollection is that I posted a dough recipe for a Sicilian style pizza that Big Dave Ostrander, who grew up in the Detroit area and was very familiar with Buddy's, developed for use in his own pizzeria before he sold it. Hopefully a member with familiarity with Buddy's pizzas will also come forward with additional information that might help you narrow your efforts. I don't know if you saw it on the Buddy's website, but apparently Stanislaus tomato products and Wisconsin brick cheese (shredded) are used at Buddy's.

Peter

[DKM]

Double kneading in the commercial industry (as I know it) is when the dough is left in the mixing bowl for 15-30 minutes and then 'mixed' again for 2-4 minutes.  It is then taken out of the mixer for a longer final rise.


DKM

[gschwim]

Pete,

Can you supply a link to the Ostrander recipe you mentioned or, even better, paste it into this thread?  Thanks.

Gene

[Pete-zza]

Gene,

This is the thread I was referring to: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.msg9587.html#msg9587. The recipe itself is this one:

Big Dave’s Deep Dish Sicilian Dough Formula
Ingredients: % Amount
HRI flour 100% 25#
Water 52% 13#
Instant Active Dry Yeast .5% 2 oz.
Salt 2% 8 oz.
Sugar 1% 4oz.
PZ-44 Dough Conditioner 2% 8 oz.
Veg. Oil 8% 32 oz.

Procedure:
Weigh out 12# of 80-degree water and 25# of flour, as well as 8 oz. of salt, 4 oz. sugar and 2 oz. of Instant Dry Yeast.
Pour water into mixing bowl, add salt and sugar, stir with whip. Add flour. Sprinkle yeast and PZ-44 on top. Turn mixer on low speed, start. After a few revolutions (20 or so) slowly drizzle oil on the glob. Mix for 12 minutes on speed one. When finished mixing, place dough on worktable and weigh out dough balls:
 
7” 5 oz.
10” 11 oz.
12” 16 oz.
14 “ 22 oz.
10X14 “ 22 oz.

Scale dough balls and flatten by hand. With rolling pin or sheeter, form and shape dough fit in pans to within one half an inch from the edge of the pan. Black anodized slant wall pans seem to work the best. We also recommend using 2 inch deep self-sealing, stacking pans. The pans should be extremely oiled. 2 oz. in a 14 “ pan is good. Another option is smearing a generous amount of butter flavored Crisco on the pans. Pre oil the pans prior to rolling and sheeting dough. Proof the covered pans at 90 - 100 degrees for 45 to 60 minutes. The dough should raise in the pan to at least ½ in to ¾ inch thick. Now place the pans gently in the walk-in to cool and slow the yeast action. This dough will be ready to bake in 2 hours, and should have a usable shelf life of 36 to 40 hours before the dough starts to collapse. Perfect timing is 12 to 30 hours after mixing. For ready-to-use batch follow all steps above but use straight 105-degree water. This dough is ready to bake one hour after refrigerating, but only lasts 12 to 24 hours.

Gene, you will note that the recipe is not scaled for home use and calls for using commercial equipment. However, depending on the size of your Sicilian or equivalent pan, it should be possible to scale the recipe down to your pan size. I would recommend a thickness factor of around 0.12-0.13. The HRI flour (aka H&R flour) referenced in the recipe is apparently a “hotel and restaurant” flour. Typically an H&R flour is an institutional grade flour with a medium protein content of 10-11.5%. I would use either a bread flour or a high-gluten flour. I would also ignore the PZ-44 dough conditioner. If the dough is properly prepared and fermented, there should be no need to use the PZ-44.

Let me know if you need any help with the recipe when you get around to making the pizza

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I called the Conant St. location of Buddy's Pizza today and spoke with a manager about the "double knead" process referenced at the Buddy's Pizza website and mentioned by Gene in his opening post. The manager was new and didn't know what the process was but she spoke with a colleague who said that the double knead process is some form of double stretching of the dough after it comes out of the bowl and before the dough is put into the pan to rise. I was told that the double stretching of the dough is done by hand after the dough is patted out. It still isn't entirely clear to me how the stretching is done but that's the best explanation I have at the moment. I'm guessing here but maybe the rolling or sheeting steps referenced in Big Dave's recipe are intended to simulate the stretching steps used at Buddy's.

I also learned that Buddy's will ship a partially baked frozen pie. Because of government regulations, they cannot ship any pie that contains meat. To order a pie, one should call the Conant St. location at 313-892-9001 and ask to speak with either the manager Dennis Kot, or Jim. The manager I spoke with said that she believes the box and dry ice cost around $15, so with the added cost of the pizza and the shipping, the pie won't be cheap.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Gene,

I found a Sicilian sauce recipe posted at PMQTT by Dave Ostrander that may go well with his Sicilian dough recipe:

SICILIAN SAUCE - Spicy.

Heavy Tomato Puree 3 cans
Ground Tomatoes in Puree 3 cans
Leaf Basil 3/4 oz
Leaf Oregano 3/4 oz
Black Pepper 2.5 oz
Granulated Garlic 2.0 oz
Granulated Onion 1.0 oz
Salt 4.0 oz
Sugar 4.0 oz
Virgin Olive Oil 7.0 oz

This is a spicy, hearty sauce. If you want to kick it up a notch add a 1/2 oz of Cayenne Pepper

I imagine the can sizes are #10.

Peter

[quidoPizza]

the problem is most pizza men don't understand how to get a light, airy sicilian or deep dish style pizza.  or are just to lazy to do it correctly. i've seen this in pizzeria after pizzeria. it's not a double kneed.  it's all in rise time. and or a special mix of dough. use d only for sicilians increasing yeast by 20-30% i use a standard sicilian tray 16x11 or cookie sheet.  i use about 1-1/4 pound of dough for a thin pie   maybe a 1-1/2 to 3/4 for something like the picture of buddy's pizza. i let the dough rise to close to 1/2 the time i would use for a regular pie. i oil the sicilian pan with 3-4 oz. of olive oil streach out the dough to just short of fitting the pan. insert the dough in pan , then flip it. and finish sizing the dough to pan. the dough should be drenched in oil, you can cover it with plastic wrap . or just let it sit unwrapped for hours. maybe 2-5 hours.  here were you need to understand dough. and just how long you can let it sit on the counter. with out it dying. it should atleast  be 3to 4x's thicker. this takes time. my house oven works well at 425-450 degrees  i add lite sauce. without pushing down the risen dough. cook 10-15 minutes till bottom of dough is lite to meduim brown.  remove and let sit till room temp.  add sauce and topping and cook another 10-15 minutes. the crust is so lite and crunchy in every bit. even when i think it's not a great pie. everyone else ( even pizziola's) think it one of the best pie's they ever had.   i still work part time once every month or so in my friend pizzeria when they need a man on sunday. and they always ask me to make one of these pie.'s they always cry because i start it at 11 a.m. and never finish it. before 4or 5 p.m.  butg they wait. and so will your friends if you master this pie.  quido

[Pete-zza]

quido,

Is there a particular flour that works best for the Sicilian style?

Peter

[quidoPizza]

high gluten pizza flour, or high gluten flour. there are onlyu about 4or 5 mills in the united states that even make flour. maybe 10.  there are lots of brand names . but few commerical flour mills. i'm next to sure , all pizza flour is next to the same,  pillsbury pizza flour works fine. trick is to find high gluten flour . in small bags.  honestly i never looked for it . in a supermarket.  but i'm sure they sell it.  i'm lazy and will not knead dough by hand. that's even worst than making fresh pasta by hand. i just go to one of the pizzeria's i used to work at and pick up a few balls. to cook pizza at home.  but i may make home made dough to in the next few winter month's.  when my kids spent the weekend.  i'll get them do all the kneading LOL.  THAT SHOULD GET THEM TIRED. HA HA

[gschwim]

Thanks, everyone, for all your help.

I may just have to order one of Buddy's pizzas, despite the expense, to verify whether my memory is correct.  For example, though I found quido's comments interesting, I don't recall Buddy's (or Shield's) pizzas being particularly "light" -- certainly not the biscuit-like texture that I understand characterizes the Chicago style, and definitely not a traditional Sicilian (at least not the Sicilians I've had in New York).  That's why I specified "Detroit" or "Buddy's" style, because they are unique -- or at least that's what I remember.

Gene