Author Topic: Rising too fast in the fridge (Read 5139 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #20 on:** October 09, 2006, 04:11:15 PM »

Quote from: November on October 09, 2006, 03:17:08 PM

Peter,I bet you can't measure two consecutive cups of flour by volume with the exact same mass each time. It's almost impossible even if you are especially careful to be consistent.

November,

LOL. You are correct, as I myself demonstrated here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1184.msg10724.html#msg10724 (Reply 14).

All I try to do when converting from weight to volume is get people close, whether it is by doing my own conversions for flour (using the same brand and type of flour if possible) and water and stating the method used (I often use an expression like "stir, spoon and level" for flour), or using weight-based conversions for other ingredients or using data provided on packaging of the other ingredients, just as we discussed with molasses a while back. In many cases, it will be difficult to measure out volumes precisely anyway using standard measuring cups and spoons. I read that there are even variations among different brands and shapes of measuring cups and spoons.

Your approach may indeed work well but I have discovered that getting everyone on the same page on any matter is extremely difficult. King Arthur on its packaging for flour says that 5 lbs. of bread flour is about 19 cups (about 120 grams per cup), but I wonder how many people know that and, if they do, whether they pay any attention to it. I believe King Arthur recommends the stir, spoon and level method, and is sometimes stated on its bags of flour.

Peter

November · « **Reply #21 on:** October 09, 2006, 05:02:20 PM »

Peter,

Because of this discussion, I am actually putting together a web based tool that will convert mass-to-volume and volume-to-mass quantities, which will get people closer to the actual amounts. The reason different measuring cups will give different masses is because of physics. The taller the column of flour, the more compaction due to gravity happens. So if someone weighs a cup of flour with a 1 cup measuring cup 3" tall versus a 1 cup measuring cup 2" tall, and they use the exact same practice or technique, and they use the exact same flour, they will get two different masses. That's why I added that it's 137g per 1 cup of bread flour on a 1 cup basis. It's only 120g per cup on a 1/4 cup basis (obviously assuming that the 1/4 cup is shorter than the 1 cup).

I'll let you know when I have the tool ready.

- red.november

Pete-zza · « **Reply #22 on:** October 09, 2006, 05:39:55 PM »

November,

Thank you very much. I look forward to the tool. Maybe you can start a new thread with it so it doesn't get lost in this thread.

Peter

November · « **Reply #23 on:** October 10, 2006, 07:55:07 AM »

Peter,

I will create a new thread for it, but for the moment I'm just going to post it here while a few people get a chance to see and use it. I'd like to know if anyone encounters any problems with it displaying correctly.

http://tools.foodsim.com/

If you have any questions, let me know so that if it's something that should be explained on the tool page I can add it.

- red.november

EDIT: Displays correctly in IE 6, Mozilla Firefox 1.5, Safari 2.0, Camino 1.0.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #24 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:31:02 AM »

November,

Thanks for posting the tool. I have been playing around with it and am amazed at how much the numbers can change based on the depth of the measuring cup. Fortunately for me, I use only one set of (metal) measuring cups (straight-sided) and measuring spoons so at least I have been consistent to that extent when doing my conversions.

Based on my preliminary use of the tool I have the following comments and hope they make sense:

1) The most common question that members have when dealing with weights of flour is how the weights convert to cups, fractions of a cup, tablespoons, teaspoons, etc. Will the reverse tool be able to provide those conversions, and, if so, will users have to select the size(s) of the measuring cups they will be using?

2) Will other flours besides bread flour be added to the tool? The usual suspects are all-purpose, bread, high-gluten, and Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Even among brands there may be slight variations (e.g, the King Arthur flours are well known and advertised as having a bit higher protein content than competing brands), but I assume that those variations are too slight to worry about.

3) Is there a standard or recommended way of filling a measuring cup to achieve the weight (approx.) given by the tool? Also, as you know, recipes given in volumes, e.g., cups of flour, almost never tell you how the measuring cup was filled or what type of measuring cup was used. I can't see how the tool will be able to provide those answers.

4) Will it be possible for users to enter the number of cups to be converted to weight, e.g., 4 1/2 cups of bread flour weigh "x" grams? In the example given, will full cups and half-cups be handled separately?

5) I noticed that when I used the tool and entered the requisite data, I had to click on the page (anywhere) to have the answer provided. Maybe it's my computer but is it possible to add an "Enter" button?

6) Is it possible to also provide the answer in ounces for those who do not use metric?

Thanks.

Peter

November · « **Reply #25 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:04:29 AM »

Peter,

You might want to check it out again for point #5. If you just hit [Enter] or [Tab] the amounts will refresh.

1) Yes. I'm still trying to decide how I'm going to handle that. I know that most people use "stackable" measuring cups, so there's a basic shape symmetry that can be exploited for producing a relatively accurate algorithm. With "stackable" cups, I would just ask the user to specify the size and depth of the largest cup.

2) Most flour is going to be the same regardless of protein content. I will add all-purpose flour, but someone will have to provide me with three very accurate measurements of any other flours you want to see. I'll explain more later. I really wanted to add things like various salts, sucrose, honey, molasses, brown sugar, yeast, etc. The tool will eventually deal with tablespoons and teaspoons when I add the reverse volume lookup.

3) I used the stir, scoop, and level practice, and I did it 6 times for each of the three data points (measuring cups) and took the average. What I found out by examining the data outliers is that there is generally no more than a .0004735 %/g variance between two extremes in measurement. That means you're 2.5 times less likely to be off using the tool (almost regardless of your measuring practice) than if you were to use inaccurate multiplication such as 30g x 4 per 1 cup measuring cup. As I said earlier, this is to get people closer, and closer it will get them.

4) Yes. I don't know when though. Perhaps soon. How it will be handled will be the same as mentioned in item #1 regarding the "stackable" cups.

6) Yes. That's something I planned on anyway. I was just waiting to see what kind of layout I would need to add any further suggestions.

- red.november

November · « **Reply #26 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:20:24 AM »

All,

If you want to contribute to the list of substances to choose from, here is what I need in terms of measurement to calculate the logarithm base and mass constant: at least 1 cup, 0.5 cup, 0.25 cup; all measured 5-10 times and averaged. You can measure out more volumes if you want, but I need at least those three to find the logarithmic slope. Please provide the size, depth, and content mass of each cup you use.

- red.november

Pete-zza · « **Reply #27 on:** October 10, 2006, 01:29:45 PM »

November,

I have different flours and can measure out and weigh the contents for the three cup sizes you mentioned. I can also give you the 1/3-cup size if you want. However, I do not have any Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour on hand, only the Caputo 00 Extra Blu, for which I can do the measuring. Maybe someone else with the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour can volunteer.

Will you need all of the actual measurements or only the average, for the three (or four) cup sizes? My measuring cups are "nestable" rather than "stackable", that is, they sit completely within each other. They are from Williams-Sonoma. My scale is a Soehnle Futura which, I believe, is accurate to within 1 gram. I plan to provide the number in grams for increased accuracy.

Peter

November · « **Reply #28 on:** October 10, 2006, 03:51:31 PM »

Peter,

Only the three cup sizes are necessary for "fitting" a logarithmic curve to the data. If you want to provide measurements for more than those three, you're more than welcome. I only need the average, but if you want me to analyze all the data just to be sure, go ahead and provide it. Keep in mind that I am just finding the logarithmic slope that best represents the measurements that are taken. Due to variances in empirical data, an idealized slope doesn't always match every data point. When I said "stackable" I was referring to measuring cups that fit inside one another. (e.g. http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=163253&ar=1 or http://cribcandy.com/kitchen/111d211cd80a2d3163c4d98261a2fa8e&pageoffset=25). I've never heard of "stackable" used in a description for any other kind of measuring cup.

Providing the mass in grams is quite preferred. Thanks.

- red.november

EDIT: The units are now switchable between metric and imperial, with imperial as the default.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #29 on:** October 10, 2006, 07:18:20 PM »

November,

I measured three flours today using the 1-cup, 1/2-cup and 1/4-cup metal measuring cups (Williams-Sonoma brand with straight sides). The flours were the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) high gluten flour, Gold Medal all-purpose flour, and the Caputo 00 Extra Blu flour. I have some King Arthur bread flour but did not do any measurements with it. However, if you wish, I can do so.

As for the measuring cups themselves, as best as I could tell without recalibrating my eyeballs, the dimensions are as follows:

1-cup: 3 1/4" diameter (inside diameter), 1 3/4" deep (inside measurement)
1/2-cup: 2 11/16" (inside diameter), 1 1/4" deep (inside measurement)
1/4-cup: 2 1/16" (inside diameter), 1" deep (inside measurement)

For the flours, I took 10 measurements for each and averaged them. I double checked all the math. The results (averages) I got are as follows:

KASL
1-cup: 134.5 g.
1/2-cup: 67.5 g.
1/4-cup: 33.7 g.

Gold Metal All-purpose Flour
1-cup: 133.5 g.
1/2-cup: 66.9 g.
1/4-cup: 33.7 g.

Caputo 00 Extra Blu
1-cup: 141 g.
1/2-cup: 72 g.
1/4-cup: 36.5 g.

Peter

November · « **Reply #30 on:** October 10, 2006, 07:33:39 PM »

Peter,

I will see how your Gold Metal AP flour measurements compare to mine, since that's the brand of AP flour I have and that I added to the page earlier. The bread flour on the page is also KA bread flour, so there's probably no need for you to measure it too. I will add KASL and Caputo 00 Extra Blu as soon as possible (after I have slid a little pasta across my palette for the evening nutrient intake).

Thanks for the input.

- red.november

November · « **Reply #31 on:** October 10, 2006, 08:01:33 PM »

Peter,

Something is not jiving with your measurements. Besides the fact that your 1 cup of flour is less dense than your 1/4 cup of flour in every case; you state that your 1 cup measuring cup is essentially 14.5175941765 cubic inches. 1 cup = 13.839952602 cubic inches.

EDIT: There is apparently a larger problem here related to the precise measurement of a cup. As you mentioned before, not all measuring cups are the same, but it's worse than just a little differences, because in order for this to work, we all have to agree on what standard to use: metric, US, Canadian, or fluid-volume conversion (which is what I use and my measuring cups measure). Of course 3.341010156 ci * 4 != 14.5175941765, so even within your set of cups there is something fishy.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #32 on:** October 10, 2006, 08:32:36 PM »

November,

I rechecked my numbers and what I gave you is what I got. When measuring out the flour I tried to do it as an ordinary person would do in the home. I cleaned the cups before each set of measurements with a given flour, tared the measuring cups, and I kept the scale surface clean but I otherwise just stirred, scooped and leveled, and noted the numbers. I did note, however, that the greatest variations in the numbers seemed to be with the 1-cup measuring cup. At the time, I wondered why this was so, but I was doing nothing different with the one-cup measuring cup than with the other measuring cups. Usually I spoon the flour into the cups rather than scooping before leveling but this time I followed the method you mentioned. I didn't shake or tamp the cups on a hard surface.

After your post, I looked at the measuring cups and saw that there were ml markings on them. For the 1-cup, it is 236 ml, for the 1/2-cup it is 118 ml, and for the 1/4-cup it is 59 ml. Clearly, the ratios are proportionate and correct. I used two measuring tapes to cornfirm my measurements of the cups themselves, trying to be diametrically accurate and not measuring the thickness of the metal itself, but maybe I wasn't close enough or accurate enough. I'm sure using the ml numbers should produce more accurate volumes, although I don't think that will account for the different densities.

Do you have any suggestions?

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #33 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:04:39 PM »

November,

LOL. Based on my experience on the forum I can assure you that there are quite a few people who use the measuring cups themselves to "scoop" flour out of the container. Some even shake and tamp the measuring cups and don't bother to level them. I didn't think about the scoop you had in mind especially since it is common to use the term even when using a spoon rather than the "scoop" you had in mind. See, for example, http://busycooks.about.com/library/archive/blmeasureflour.htm. The only scoop I have on hand is 1/4-cup. If that is acceptable for your purposes, I will redo the measurements tomorrow.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #34 on:** October 10, 2006, 09:20:30 PM »

I checked with the King Arthur site and found this in the Baking Tips section:

A Better Measure

Because flour settles and compacts in storage, fluff it up before you measure. Then, gently sprinkle it into your measuring cup and scrape the excess off with the back of a knife. This will ensure a 4 ounce cup of flour rather than the 5 ounces you would have if you scooped it out with your cup.

Peter

David · « **Reply #35 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:28:06 PM »

Just to clarify,is this an additional Dough calculating device you're developing or something we're holding back for the North Koreans?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #36 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:34:07 PM »

November,

My measuring cups are actually straight-sided, as shown below. I may have unintentionally misled you when I used the term nesting. I am accustomed to using the terms nesting and stacking with respect to pizza pans, especially deep-dish pans. For them to be nested or stacked, they have to be tapered somewhat. It’s just that the nested pans fit more closely within each other, as shown, for example, here: http://www.pizzatools.com/productdisplay.aspx?catid=53&c=Deep_Dish_Nesting_Heavy.

I am aware of the “flat” back of the knife issue but thanks for mentioning it anyway. I usually emphasize the “flat” feature because I, too, have noted that not all knives have flat back edges. The one I use does and I scrape at 90 degrees as you mentioned. An advantage of raining flour into the measuring cups is that very little of the flour is likely to attach itself to the outside of the cups, as can happen when using the measuring cups themselves as scoops.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #37 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:47:20 PM »

David,

I guess you could call it another potentially useful tool. As you know, the Lehmann dough calculating tool gives weights for flour but not volumes, because of the difficulties in converting weights into volumes. November believes that he has a way of doing this with sufficient accuracy as to warrant its creation, and I have every confidence that he will be able to do it.

I have been working with Boy Hits Car on other dough calculating tools based on using Flash. We've discovered that the program challenges can be quite daunting. So it will take time to get them up and running and tested. As I see it, November's tool should be complementary. I've been fortunate to work with two very talented individuals.

Peter

David · « **Reply #38 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:55:41 PM »

I can see that Peter and I'm glad it's you and not me.(luckily for them!)You guys are taking things to a whole different level and then providing all of us un-technical pizzaholics with unique user friendly tools.Well done.I'm sure your work will be plagiarized for years to come.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #39 on:** October 11, 2006, 11:16:39 AM »

November,

I re-did the measurements using a scoop to distribute the flour into the measuring cups. From time to time, on a random basis, I also tried using an ordinary tablespoon, such as I usually use when converting weights of flour to volumes. I found no noticeable differences in the readings. Since everyone has a tablespoon, I would think that that should do for most people.

I also used the double-horizon method to recheck the depths of the measuring cups. The only difference was for the 1/2-cup size, where the new depth measurement is 1 3/16".

On of the interesting observations today was how much additional flour ends up in a measuring cup when using the cup itself to dip into the container of flour, as I did in my last round of measurements. The differences percentage-wise are quite substantial.

Here is the latest set of data:

KASL
1-cup: 122.4 g.
1/2-cup: 61.1 g.
1/4-cup: 30.1 g.

Gold Metal All-purpose Flour
1-cup: 123.1 g.
1/2-cup: 61.3 g.
1/4-cup: 29.5 g.

Caputo 00 Extra Blu
1-cup: 133.5 g.
1/2-cup: 65.8 g.
1/4-cup: 32.9 g.

As you will note, it still looks like there is a compaction issue, or else something may be out of order with my measuring cups. I used the same technique for all the measurements.

Peter