Author Topic: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..  (Read 7017 times)

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Offline shango

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2006, 01:15:08 PM »
couldn't a machine having all of the necessary information actually paint a masterpiece?

This is a stupid argument.

 :(
-E
pizza, pizza, pizza


Offline David

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2006, 01:29:50 PM »
I've always thought of it as a craft.Your use a set of components to build with,and are aided with some tools.I might suggest that the majority of pizzaiulos around the world have learned this "Craft" as it has been passed on to them by a teacher in one way or another,very few of which have more than a rudimentary understanding  of the Sciences(nor interest..........that's why they make Pizza ;)  or why particular things happen during the process.They blindly follow their predecessors and don't question much how or why they do things in a particular way as long as the results remain positive.When making Pizza I often think of a Potter and his Clay and Kiln.With different additions to the basic Clay he has a wonderful array of outcomes available to him during firing and sometimes he has only a small chance of knowing what the outcome will be.Different glazes,firing times,firing methods and individual techniques.Every time I make a Pizza it's a guessing game.I want to make a Pizza better (or at least comparable) than my best.I'm getting better at bit's and pieces as I get older,but like the Potter I still can't get it right all the time.Was my clay in the right condition,should I have addedmore salt,did I overwork it,was my kiln at the wrong temp. etc.etc.
                                 David
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2006, 01:47:10 PM »
couldn't a machine having all of the necessary information actually paint a masterpiece?

I don't think the idea is all that far-fetched. Just look at what fairly inexpensive photographic printers for the home can do with good digital data. If Michaelangelo were alive today and bidding for the job at the Sistine Chapel he would have to use high-level technology or else lose out to the low cost bidder ;D.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2006, 02:01:14 PM »
The only two aspects of pizza making that I can in good conscience call an art is in the flavor and visual appearance.  Everything else about pizzas is pretty much a science.  I can't make a pizza with a crust as hard as a rock and call it "being creative."  That's not creativity, that's failure.  Don't confuse subjectivity with creativity either.  People have their specific pizza preferences (e.g. thick crust vs. thin crust), but that doesn't mean the pizza they like is a work of art.  It just means someone went through a lot of trial and error to get the pizza to the point where they like it.  Trial and error is an undeniable modality of science.

David's point about it being a craft is far more acceptable.

"couldn't a machine having all of the necessary information actually paint a masterpiece?" - shango

Duplicate one, yes.  Create one, I doubt it.  It isn't art unless it's creative.  It's for the same reason you don't say someone invented wood.  Pizza is what it is.  There are only a couple of things that you can change that possibly nobody else has done.  If I want a thick chewy crust, I have to do the same thing that everyone else before me has done to achieve a thick chewy crust.  I might even be oblivious to what others have done, but in order to call it a pizza, a certain set of physical principles apply that dictate what anyone wanting a thick chewy crust must do.  It's not like I can use expanding urethane foam for my crust and exclaim, "Behold, art!"

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2006, 02:07:02 PM »
Just look at what fairly inexpensive photographic printers for the home can do with good digital data.

But that's just duplicating what a human has created.  I think it's far-fetched from the point of view that a machine can be creative, and subsequently produce a masterpiece, assuming by masterpiece one means to say an original masterpiece.  There's a term for when it isn't an original.  It's called recreated, denoting that it's not a creation, but a reproduction.

EDIT: By the way, if anybody here is using "art" by its least common definition: "a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice" then this argument of art vs. science does indeed become absurd.  Under that definition, any discipline in science could qualify as an art.  I'm discussing this from the perspective of the following definitions:

art: the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power
creation: the action or process of bringing something into existence; a thing that has been made or invented, esp. something showing artistic talent
creative: relating to or involving the imagination or original ideas
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 02:26:43 PM by November »

Offline shango

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2006, 02:57:24 PM »
But that's just duplicating what a human has created.  I think it's far-fetched from the point of view that a machine can be creative

art: the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power
creation: the action or process of bringing something into existence; a thing that has been made or invented, esp. something showing artistic talent
creative: relating to or involving the imagination or original ideas

cooking anything is an art.  Just look at the words in bold above.

A good cook uses all of these things.

The bad ones try to find some "scientific" master plan because they lack the soul   needed to be a true Chef, pizzaiola, cook.  In the trade these "scientists" are known as "shoe makers"

Tell me that Michel Richard is not an artist..........

Another thing, isn't art a matter of one personal perception?

Again this argument is dumb.

Last post on this topic,
-E
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2006, 03:30:27 PM »
cooking anything is an art.  Just look at the words in bold above.

I wish you would look at the words in bold.  If you cook the same thing someone else has, as one would from a recipe, how is it art?  You didn't create it, or bring it into existence.  Granted there is a lot more freedom in "cooking" per se than pizza making.  That's why people give unique names to their dishes, because they are in fact unique sometimes.  A painter can add blue to the canvas first, then red, then yellow, or any which way he wants.  Someone who intends to make a pizza is going have a very hard time adding ingredients in any "creative" order he chooses.  Making a pizza is not as flexible as making a casserole.  You can't just throw things together anyway you want and get a pizza in the end.

"Another thing, isn't art a matter of one personal perception?"

With flavor and and visual appearance of a pizza, yes.  I already acknowledged that point.

For those of you think I'm just taking the science side of this because of my current occupation, you should probably know I was a commercial artist about 14 years ago and a member of the local art alliance.  To this day I still do illustrations as favors for people.  I understand both sides of the issue, but what it comes down to is terms and definitions.  We can't just throw out definitions because believing something else makes us feel warm and fuzzy.  Art is a creative process.  Pizza making is an engineering process with certain creative aspects.

Offline shango

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2006, 04:10:03 PM »
sorry I can't resist.

I never cook the same thing someone else has.  That is called reheating.  Every dish is unique. 

I write my own recipes...In regards to pizze making I follow a tradition, not a recipe.

Of course I created it and brought it into existence.  I made it from scratch.

art/fart.

-E
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2006, 04:49:58 PM »
In regards to pizze making I follow a tradition, not a recipe.

Engineering is a very popular tradition.  If I construct a building a little bigger than anyone else's, or with more angles, or with more entrances, or with more windows, I cannot call it art simply because it isn't anyone else's building or that I built it from scratch.  It's just a unique building.  I still had to apply all the same physical principles of building construction that everyone else does.  If I construct a building "primarily for its beauty or emotional power" than it may be perceived as art.  Frank Lloyd Wright did it all the time.  The phrase "primarily for its beauty" and in particular the term "primarily" in the definition for art certainly doesn't apply to pizzas when you make pizzas for eating.  Let me know when you open an art gallery for pizza, and if flavor is a part of your "art" people should only need to eat a bite or two and go home.  I appreciate really good pizza, but make no mistake, I eat my pizza.  I also enjoy being creative, but I'm a little offended when someone says they've created art when all it is something engineered a little differently than what I make.

Offline David

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2006, 05:05:58 PM »
fermentation at room temperature and the fact that there is not a recipe...

http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/chisiamo.php#fondazione


Just to a reminder to myself as to how we got into this ???
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Offline David

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2006, 05:15:25 PM »
  Let me know when you open an art gallery for pizza, and if flavor is a part of your "art" people should only need to eat a bite or two and go home.  I appreciate really good pizza, but make no mistake, I eat my pizza. 

I believe Damien Hirst and Frank Gehry are collaberating on it as we pursue our Science / Craft / Art / Hobby/ Pastime / Vocation. :o
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2006, 05:30:16 PM »
I believe Damien Hirst and Frank Gehry are collaberating on it as we pursue our Science / Craft / Art / Hobby/ Pastime / Vocation. :o

And they are welcome to it.  I won't deny pizza as art when pizza was first created, nor will I deny it as art if it's held in regard as such by art collectors.  I think the source of the confusion comes from the terminology.  Making a pizza is not creative.  It's already been made.  Coming up with new flavors, aromas, textures, and colors is creative.  That's the creative process slapped on top of the engineering process.

Offline shango

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2006, 05:36:33 PM »
art 1  (ärt)
n.
1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2.
a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
b. The study of these activities.
c. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
6.
a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
7.
a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" Joyce Carol Oates.
8.
a. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
b. Artful contrivance; cunning.
9. Printing Illustrative material.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin ars, art-; see ar- in Indo-European roots.]
Synonyms: art1, craft, expertise, knack, know-how, technique
These nouns denote skill in doing or performing that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of rhetoric; pottery that reveals an artist's craft; political expertise; a knack for teaching; mechanical know-how; a precise diving technique
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2006, 06:06:02 PM »
1. Pizza is not an imitation of nature.
2. Pizza does in fact have an arrangement of flavors, aromas, textures, and colors; and therein lies the possibility for creativity.
3. The aesthetic value of pizza has already been acknowledged several times.
4. Pizza is not music, ballet, or literature.
5. Pizza making is not a branch of learning.  It is rather a subject within a branch.
6 & 7. This definition I gave from the start saying that if this what you meant, the argument is absurd.  The art of science could then apply.
8. Pizza is not a trick.
9. Pizza is not illustrative material.

Your list of synonyms is the same as 6 & 7.  What did you hope to prove with this list of definitions?

Offline David

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2006, 07:02:11 PM »
Another thing, isn't art a matter of one personal perception?

Again this argument is dumb.

Last post on this topic,
-E

"Just when you think you are out,they suck you right back in again"      Silvio Dante (The Sopranos)
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2006, 07:18:47 PM »
shango,

In an attempt to bring this "stupid argument" as you put it, to an end, I will try to capture the essence of this discussion and provide an explanation for our current entanglement.

"I have worked with many people whom were uninspired and more interested in receiving a pay check then making good pizze. The funny thing is these people made inferior pizze, and they were using the same recipe, ingredients, and tools that I was using. Maybe your inability to see pizze as an "art"  is the reason you haven't been able to make a pizza you consider to be 1st class.... When making neapolitan pizze; passion and experience are everything." - shango

Your comments make it sound like someone can't make a mistake as long as they're passionate about what they're doing.  Alfred Nobel was passionate about explosives, but his brother still died as a result of an explosion.  Was Alfred Nobel just not passionate enough to keep his brother alive?  People make just as many mistakes when they're passionate about something as when they aren't.  Not making mistakes is a very large part of what makes a good pizza.  Nobel was also rather experienced as a chemist too.  But then if you are experienced in something it means you've made it before, right?  So where's the creativity?  I hope you can see the contradiction.

"cooking anything is an art." - shango

Here you are implying a completely different definition.  In the sense that pizza making principles can be passed down from one person to another through applied learning, there is such a thing as the art of pizza making.  One of the synonyms you listed (craft) I also already acknowledged when I said David's point was far more acceptable.  However, this is not the same as saying pizza is art or that pizza making is an art form.  You may have interludes of self-expression when concocting your pizza recipe, but that does not an art form make.  If I decide to make a pizza with no self-expression, without a care in the world what it looks or tastes like, that doesn't mean it isn't a pizza.  I have expressed nothing, yet I have a pizza.

If you have decided on definitions 6 or 7 from your terminological buffet, please note that these definitions say nothing about passion.

- red.november

Offline shango

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2006, 07:53:50 PM »
November,

You are not an artist.  Fair enough.

1.  Pizza does alter nature.
2. agreed.
3. the high quality of execution elevates it to "art"
4. Nope.
5. ok.
6. & 7.  You choose to ignore this definition because it does not suit your argument.
8. obviously you haven't made enough then
9. unless I were to make an illustrative pizze.

synonyms came along with the rest of the cut & paste job.  Information is your friend, don't be bitter just because you didn't make it as a pizza man.

Anyway,  One man's trash is another man's lover.....

Done.

-E

pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2006, 07:59:11 PM »
November,

You are not an artist.  Fair enough.

1.  Pizza does alter nature.
2. agreed.
3. the high quality of execution elevates it to "art"
4. Nope.
5. ok.
6. & 7.  You choose to ignore this definition because it does not suit your argument.
8. obviously you haven't made enough then
9. unless I were to make an illustrative pizze.

synonyms came along with the rest of the cut & paste job.  Information is your friend, don't be bitter just because you didn't make it as a pizza man.

Anyway,  One man's trash is another man's lover.....

Done.

-E

What the?!  ...and I would just leave it at that, however you might have missed the part where I said I actually am an artist in the truest sense, but still mainly...  What the?!

Offline shango

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2006, 08:02:43 PM »
"I actually am an artist in the truest sense"-November

That could be debated.

-E
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline November

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Re: The beginning of VPN, when they were "good"..
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2006, 08:17:43 PM »
It wouldn't surprise me to see you to start that debate without having ever seen my artwork.  Is it your passion for pizza making that fuels your argumentum ad hominem?


 

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