Author Topic: Renato pizza ovens - good? (Read 5929 times)

Apizz · « **on:** October 10, 2006, 04:46:42 PM »

Hi there, I'm new.

I am looking to open a neapolitan pizza restaurant. While I'm working out the receipe, I bumped across an opprtunity to buy a Renato wood-burning pizza oven for a very reasonable price from a liquidator.

Anyone has had any experience with them? Would you recommend owning one for commercial use?

Thank you.

Ana.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2006, 05:00:34 PM »

Refractory cement wedges?

No please.

In building up a commercial neapolitan pizzeria I would put OVEN first of the investment (you will depreciated over 30 years at least), then a proper mixer (no planetary please) and then the rest of the equipment. I believe Settebello experience on that says it all....

Apizz · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2006, 05:06:23 PM »

pizzanapoletana, thank you for the reply.

Is that a no for Renato then?

The oven cost almost $16,000 new and it wasn't used for too long.

But it is made of refractory cement wedges? Not high quality brick? How can they charge so much then?

And finally, are Earthstone ovens beter? Or nothing made in the US will do?

Also, I have found this oven on eBay, what do you think? http://cgi.ebay.com/AMBROGI-ITALIAN-WOOD-BURNING-PIZZA-OVEN-82_W0QQitemZ7526003345QQihZ017QQcategoryZ25369QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Thank you so much.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #3 on:** October 10, 2006, 05:18:34 PM »

Ana,

depend on what you would really like to do. Is that a Neapolitan style type of pizza that you want to re-create? (e.g wood fired whatever oven, cooked at a convenient temperature, and other compromising) Just to attract clients with the wood oven charm? If so, even a self built option will do..

I may sound impartial here, however, if Authentic Neapolitan pizza is your goal, than there is no alternative other then a Neapolitan Wood fired oven.

I don't see the viability for a Neapolitan Pizza (especially at commercial level) to be produced in any American wood oven version as well as the pre-fab/wedges italian ovens such as MAM, Ambogi, Valoriani etc. These are all bad alternatives.

After working as a consultant trying to promote the Authentic Pizza Napoletana, I found myself involved with some traditional artisan so to promote the Authentic Neapolitan Ovens worldwide. www.forno-napoletano.it

Apizz · « **Reply #4 on:** October 10, 2006, 05:35:51 PM »

pizzanapoletana,

What woukd I do without your knowledge?

I am in no way intersted in making Neapolitan-style pizza. I want to get as close to the original as possible. Therefore, I am willing to get the best oven. I just didn't know which oven is the best one. Following your advice, I checked out the forno-napoletano website and they say the following:

"We also produce a mobile model, made in Naples on a wheeled steel frame, ready to ship and use at the chosen destination". Is it the one I should buy? Sounds like it's the only one they will ship.

Also, you mentioned something about the mixers. Do you have any recommendations in particular?

Thanks again,
I learn a lot from you.

JPY · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2006, 10:32:53 PM »

One thing to note: Many of the hand made ovens that Marco is referring to or promoting are not allowed in many of the large cities of the USA. They may have done a couple here and there but most inspectors will not approve it. Things work much differently here then over in Europe. I have seen even some of the premade Italian ovens being rejected because they do not have proper approvals. Buyer beware....

I see it every day...

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2006, 08:22:46 AM »

Quote from: JPY on October 11, 2006, 10:32:53 PM

One thing to note: Many of the hand made ovens that Marco is referring to or promoting are not allowed in many of the large cities of the USA. They may have done a couple here and there but most inspectors will not approve it. Things work much differently here then over in Europe. I have seen even some of the premade Italian ovens being rejected because they do not have proper approvals. Buyer beware.... I see it every day...

I had in depth conversations with UL rep and thanks to a very honest one, I was reassured that the oven can be approved by the health inspectors for the following reasons:

-It is not an appliance!
-can be passed as an artisan fireplace and therefore do not need approval.
-If the problem is the exausth smoke (in some city) it can be fitted with an optional water/filter (a must in residential area in Italian city) which reduce emission by 97% (this is an example http://www.smoki.it/).

Finally, if there is any other issues, UL can do a field inspection and release the certificate for something around $1000-2000. For a commercial pizzeria the extra $2000 (if needed at all) means the profit of 1 pizza sold everyday for a year, and it is paid off. The Profit of 1 pizza over a year.. the oven last at least 30 years (most probably will get to 80)... I am not good at math....

Thanks

Apizz · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2006, 10:06:13 AM »

Quote from: JPY on October 11, 2006, 10:32:53 PM

One thing to note: Many of the hand made ovens that Marco is referring to or promoting are not allowed in many of the large cities of the USA. They may have done a couple here and there but most inspectors will not approve it. Things work much differently here then over in Europe. I have seen even some of the premade Italian ovens being rejected because they do not have proper approvals. Buyer beware.... I see it every day...

JPY,

Thank you for the warning. Do you know why health inspectors will not approve it? Any issues in particular you are reffering to?

Thanks for any help!

JPY · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2006, 11:01:01 AM »

There is also NSF that you will need for sanitation, UL also does this. In the states they classify these a grease laden appliances, I know it's pizza and the grease is very small if any. ETL does the same which is another agency. The CE requirements are a little different. Then UL needs to do quarterly check ups, which is not for free. $2000 seems like a low figure it also does not mean that the city will accept the unit. We have UL here 4 times a year to look at our products, most of it is routine paperwork. Already by saying it's an artesian fireplace you are trying to play games with them, which is not a good start.

Marco what are the prices on those water/filters. I looked many years ago at a different make and they were expensive.

Apizz · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2006, 12:14:00 PM »

JPY and Marco,

How are those italian ovens really different then the others, such as Woodstone or Earthstone? Why so much trouble with them? I thought that their essential structure is the same!

But I haven't heard of any of this with the American ovens. Why are they considered safer than the italian ovens?

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2006, 12:25:25 PM »

Quote from: Apizz on October 12, 2006, 12:14:00 PM

JPY and Marco,

How are those Italian ovens really different then the others, such as Woodstone or Earthstone? Why so much trouble with them? I thought that their essential structure is the same!

But I haven't heard of any of this with the American ovens. Why are they considered safer than the Italian ovens?

The test are mandatory for appliances, but brick ovens are not appliances and an honest tester (UL OR ETL) will tell you that. For wood ovens these test are only quality a safety standard tests that companies get so to be more attractive to clients and make credibility for themselves with health inspectors (you can also start an open and honest relationship with the health inspector which will agree with the fireplace issue). One of the test is for the materials Fire resistance... What? a refractory brick is not resistant to fire? funny, isn't it... Romans built ovens with the same bricks 2000 years ago, which have resisted multiple fire up, a lava eruption and numerous earthquakes...... (still visible in Pompeii)

The NSF is not necessary for a wood oven pizza and can get the documentation used by a client and approved by the health inspector.

The pre fab ovens, American or Italian, do not perform as a Traditional oven to cook pizza Napoletana. the materials, dimensions, insulation etc are different so these are not essentially the same.

Neapolitan ovens have passed the test on site at an approachable cost.

JPY,

The quarterly checks you are talking about are referred to the Production of those ovens (at the company where you work) and do not apply to 1 unit approved on site, let's no confuse people here.

Also, there is a company in Italy which sells UL and NFS (which is an European standard by the way) approved ovens... but are prefab.... Again not comparable with an artisan product.

Neapolitan oven maker are artisans and make an artisan product.

Ciao

JPY · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2006, 12:38:30 PM »

The oven is for making pizza and other items, so the same test will be conducted, I don't think the ovens differ that much in that regards. Some maybe hotter but the general idea of the oven is the same. I have delt with pretty much every area of the world with these ovens and the US is the most difficult. In areas like Korea and Singapore you may get some different guidelines but it's all pretty much the same.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2006, 12:51:53 PM »

Quote from: JPY on October 12, 2006, 12:38:30 PM

I don't think the ovens differ that much in that regards. Some maybe hotter but the general idea of the oven is the same.

JPY,

Have you visited Naples? have you operated an Hand made Neapolitan oven?

I would not say that are the same, one use bricks and one prefab wedges.... One got a very particular dimension, the other an approximative, compromised one... one cooks in a way, the other in another, one is capable of cooking pizza in 30 seconds the other simply cannot. As I said at the beginning of this post, if someone want to make a Pizza Napoletana, than it need the Neapolitan oven, if the desire is to make just a Wood oven pizza, then anything will do.

regards

JPY · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2006, 03:25:24 PM »

Yes I have been to Naples I have seen the ovens and all of that, but things are different there. I'm sure you know your stuff about the ovens, however you not getting my point. The basic principal of the oven is the same, it is made of a brick material and it uses wood for heat. How many ovens have you installed in the US? It's the same kind of question. I can say after dealing with more than 4000 ovens I should know what goes on here in the US. Mexico for example is much more relaxed, so is Canada. Inspectors are not pizza oven builders, they see it in a simple way. The oven uses wood, it gets very hot, it creates soot to some degree. If they cook other things than pizza howmuch grease will it create. Why do some cities want exhaust hoods? and others don't . Also they are putting their signature and approval for some oven builder that they don't even know. If the restaurant burns down who do they blame? Not saying that will happen. Try getting insurance for the restaurant and see what they ask for. Even with UL listings some areas like Charlotte, NC are very pickey and have their own set of guidelines.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2006, 03:50:30 PM »

Quote from: JPY on October 12, 2006, 03:25:24 PM

Yes I have been to Naples I have seen the ovens and all of that, but things are different there. I'm sure you know your stuff about the ovens, however you not getting my point. The basic principal of the oven is the same, it is made of a brick material and it uses wood for heat. How many ovens have you installed in the US? It's the same kind of question. I can say after dealing with more than 4000 ovens I should know what goes on here in the US. Mexico for example is much more relaxed, so is Canada. Inspectors are not pizza oven builders, they see it in a simple way. The oven uses wood, it gets very hot, it creates soot to some degree. If they cook other things than pizza howmuch grease will it create. Why do some cities want exhaust hoods? and others don't . Also they are putting their signature and approval for some oven builder that they don't even know. If the restaurant burns down who do they blame? Not saying that will happen. Try getting insurance for the restaurant and see what they ask for. Even with UL listings some areas like Charlotte, NC are very pickey and have their own set of guidelines.

Forno Napoletano have installed 3 ovens (and 3 more to come), but from other Neapolitan producers we are talking of more then 20 (nothing compared with 4000 but we are talking cheap industrial vs high cost artisan).

Lets start again:

We started talking about approved vs not approved and we moved away. All the issues you have mentioned would apply to both ovens. Again once approved on site there is no further testing (is not a manufacturing facility).

For the fire issue/insurance: can pass as a fire place, again It is not an appliance. If they really insist, the UL field test approval will do.
For the grease/smoke there are filters and grease traps (both your ovens or an artisanal one will need it). there is a lot of talking about NYC not accepting Wood/Coal ovens: It may be true for Coal but in the last 2 years Wood ovens have mushroomed evrywhere, including things self built or poorly built. What is more I am aware of a test results from the exausth residue of a Neapolitan oven which was better then pre-made ones, because these Neapolitan burn better. the test was made by a US approved lab in US.....

JPY · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2006, 04:33:25 PM »

I would not say cheap

...the ovens we export to Italy are the inexpensive ones using the red cotto refractory or pouzzolon if you are in France, very comparable to the Valoriani line or some of the ovens from Sardinia. 60 and 70 cm interial diameters. The cheap ones are some of the ovens coming from Brazil. Our oven mass compared to most of the Italian makes I have seen is about double. We have done a couple of pizza factories that do up wards of 70,000 pizzas a day from 50 ovens.

But back to the testing, most of the UL testing I have seen takes about one week with various fire tests and safety issues, such as closing the door with the fire in the oven, and absurdly high heat tests, venting and things like that. I still think that you would need to spend at least $5000-$6000 for a test. If they will do it.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #16 on:** October 12, 2006, 05:09:20 PM »

Quote from: JPY on October 12, 2006, 04:33:25 PM

I still think that you would need to spend at least $5000-$6000 for a test. If they will do it.

I have a letter with the approx quote from UL = $1000-2000...

Again let's not send mix messages:

you may be exporting ovens to factory making chilled and frozen pizza for supermarkets, surely not to artisan pizzeria in Italy.

I respect your experience about the Oven market, but for artisanl pizza and Neapolitan above all, you need to admit your company/products limits

Ciao

Pizza Boy · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2006, 06:00:05 PM »

I was thinking of getting a Roto-Flex oven, anyone have any input.
Thanks

JPY · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2006, 06:07:00 PM »

If you say $1000-2000 I will take your word on it. But it's very similar to getting a quote from a contractor for your house, they tell you a low number then it adds on from there. I will not go into the ovens that we make. I know that they are good and I'm sure the ones you have made or seen or good too. We will leave it alone for know. As they say we will agree to disagree.

I was suppoed to visit the UK in the summer, but my plans got changed. It would have been nice to meet you. My wife has family in Lebanon that we were going to visit, so of course those plans were changed and we planned a stop in London. I might head out to Sorrento in March, so I should stop in Naples.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2006, 06:19:02 PM »

Quote from: JPY on October 12, 2006, 06:07:00 PM

I might head out to Sorrento in March, so I should stop in Naples.

Let me know, I may address you to a place where to see the super fast cooking and the resulting product at a couple of places with the ovens I am talking about.

About the quote: the reason why is not precise is that you need to pay the travelling and accomodation for 2 testers... may be 300 may be 1000....

Ciao