Author Topic: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique  (Read 58473 times)

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Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2004, 04:42:56 PM »
While many places outside of Chicago, unfortunately, associate deep dish with very thick dough, I've had my share of doughs in Chicago that are quite to the contrary.  

As I mentioned earlier, Chris believes the secret is within himself and that can't be bottled up.  I agree though, sometimes I find it amazing what information certain pizzerias pass on.  But then, I find that whatever I pass on one day is far behind me a few weeks later.  And sometimes when you share, you learn as well. People who bottle things up, and need things to be concrete for the kids making the pizza are certainly a different story.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2004, 05:28:05 PM by giotto »


Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2004, 04:45:05 PM »
Of the over 10 pizza resturaunts that I have in my city (population 30,000 only) 4 of them serve a thin or cracker crust.  
And I do agree that the cracker crust and the deep dish/ pan pizza ( and I have to include both, for I have had many deep dish pizzas with a crust that is not much thicker that a New York Style medium).

I would also have to say that the that there is quite a widespread interest in the thin crust, especially in circles of people that are taken with the evil Atkins diet craze. IMHO I think that by the numbers, thin cracker like crust are even more popular today.

However I also think I missed a group of crusts which is somewhat unique.
 The Cardboard Crust (aka the frozen Tombstone Pizza)
Which, I do not totally dislike.
Of course if you truly love pizza , even a bad pizza is better than no pizza at all. (not that I actually eat that many frozen pizzas)
I do actually eat and make pizza at least 4 - 5 meals a week for the last 20 years. Technically making my own for only about 5 years though, at least making good pizza. :)

It is sort of like the way that I describe pizza to people, when asked what I think is the best.

I tell them that it is apples and oranges. Unless two pizzas are very close to the same I cannot rate them as which is better. I could tell you which I prefer to eat though.
ex: I love Chicago Deep dish, and I also love New York Style, but neither is better than the other.
It would be like comparing Filet Mignon and Lobster , I love both but they are different, and at any given time I may crave either. ;D

My only point was to attempt to clarify the middle ground in the middle of the two extremes. And I think that to many people, what is thin is not always thin and thick is not always thick. The only way for one person to judge is to take all the pizzas in there personal life experience, seen or eaten, and draw their own conclusions as to catagories.
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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2004, 05:23:31 PM »
Of course if you truly love pizza , even a bad pizza is better than no pizza at all

You have obviously never attempted to eat a Mama Rosa's pizza. Pick one up at Kroger, you'll see how horrible they are.

Of the frozen pizza, I actually can tolerate the cheap 90 cent Kroger ones. The Tombstone Mexican pizzas aren't too bad in a pinch. I'd like to try to replicate them, if I can just find a store in this town that has them.

Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #103 on: August 13, 2004, 05:30:24 PM »
Pete-zza:

Regarding the formula, thank you for clearing that up.  

Since my crusts range from probably a medium near the crust to a thin skin at the end of each slice, I can see the difference in final results. In addition, when I have some extra dough, it goes into a thicker crust at the end and makes for a less circular shape.  
« Last Edit: August 13, 2004, 08:12:04 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2004, 06:07:31 PM »
Foccaciaman,

Points all well taken.  I sensed as I was reading Peter Reinhart's book that even he seemed to be struggling a bit to fit different styles of pizzas into nice convenient categories.   I guess it's in our nature to want to do that, to organize our minds better, and especially if you are trying to write a book on the subject.  

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #105 on: August 13, 2004, 06:53:16 PM »
Reinhart's descriptions of pizza crusts were on my mind as well when I read through some of the comments, and I find them useful as general categories.

- The Roman pizzas that he mentions are cracker like, and I would not confuse this with what he terms Neo-Neopolitan.  I show college kids how to use flour tortillas in the oven to make an inexpensive cracker-like personal pizza with Margherita-style toppings that meets their time demands and exceeds their experience with much of the frozen stuff.  Total carbs: 20g per personal pizza.

- The Neo-Neopolitan pizza crust (thin crisp crust with air pockets) and the New York style (slightly thicker) have a chewier crust, and is what I feel is basically different experiences that people may have with NY style pizzas

- American crust is the high-order demand pizza that covers so much of the other stuff out there, requiring extra strength for the extra toppings (Costco comes to mind, $9.99 for an 18" which people are all over because they can get it with the works).  Tends to be thicker than NY style crust, and is generally softer & less chewy crust.

Chicago style, which is normally made with cornmeal.  Although Reinhart also mentions that non-cornmeal is made as well.  The upside down nature of the ingredients and thicker layers of sauce tend to differ this pizza for many people, and is the reason I add cornmeal when I make it.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2004, 08:40:31 PM by giotto »

Offline Pierre

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #106 on: August 13, 2004, 07:21:21 PM »
Boy Pierre, I'm glad you joined our list ! , je suis heureux !  you gave some really good
words of wisdom here, merci pour ca.

Mark

Merci beucoup Mark..... I am also very glad to have joined this Forum. It's been a great experience and as I see we both joined in October 2003.

Bon soir mon ami....


Pierre

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #107 on: August 13, 2004, 08:24:52 PM »
Following up on Peter Reinhart's suggestion that I talk to Keith Giusto about flours, I was finally able today to reach and speak with Keith late today.  He is a busy guy, with both a bakery (Full Circle Bakery) and a flour business.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, Keith is one of the SF Giusto clan who decided to go into business for himself.  After talking to him it became evident that he is a real flour artist.   He seemed even to know the provenance of his flours, like exactly where the wheat came from.  I also learned that he doesn't sell at the retail level, but he did say that he does milling for the Giusto family and gave me the name of someone at Giusto's to speak with to make arrangements to have several different flours milled by Keith sent to me.   As it turned out, when I tried to call the Giusto contact I was told that he was out and won't be back in the office until next Wednesday.  I intend to follow up, of course.

When I spoke with Keith, I had Giotto's helpful post on the different Giusto flours in front of me to compare them with what Keith might have in mind for me to try.  Keith suggested that I try three of his specialty flours: Artisan, with 11.5-12 percent protein; Keith's Best, with 12.2-12.5 percent protein; and High-Protein, with 13.5-14 percent protein.  (I was scribbling fast as Keith spoke so I may not have the flour names exactly right.)  When I complained that we have been having a tough time ascertaining protein levels of flours, he said that he specifies the protein percentages for all his flours.  He also laughed when I told him the protein level I had found for one of the 00 flours I regularly use.  He said that he questioned the level and wondered whether it was high enough to make a pizza.  Now you know why I chose the byline "Always learning".  The truth is mighty elusive.

Once I understand how to work with the Giustos to gain access to Keith's flours, I will of course share what I learn, and especially so if it looks like there is a possibility for the members of this forum to buy such flours if they so wish.  I will also have a better handle on pricing.  I would love to find a way to get access to high quality flours without being so dependent on KA, particularly for the high-gluten Sir Lancelot flour which the KA people are so adamant about making available at stores throughout the country--which is puzzling since the distribution system is firmly in place and adding another product shouldn't be a big deal.  I don't where Penn Grove, CA is in relation to Giotto, but if it's close maybe Giotto might be willing to check out Keith's operation and even buy some baked goods to raise his carb levels :).

Peter
« Last Edit: September 26, 2004, 01:55:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Foccaciaman

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #108 on: August 13, 2004, 08:28:09 PM »
"even a bad pizza is better than no pizza at all"

Ok, I will have to concede that there are some truly awful inedible pizzas out there. As a matter of fact...

About a month ago I was at a food festival with my wife and kids and as we were stolling around I noticed a pizza stand that was from a local award winning resturaunt selling slices.
One of their employees was walking around with a tray full of samples and saying "Want to try the best pizza in town", so of course I grabbed one and popped it in my mouth.
 :o :o :( :( :(
I could not spit this disgusting vomit topped piece of garbage out fast enough. I waited a moment until the employee turned his back to give someone else a piece of cardboard, then I spit into my napkin.
I remember thinking "hell, I would not feed that to my dogs!"

So I guess I just try and remember only the good pizzas and shut all others from my memory. ;D
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Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #109 on: August 13, 2004, 08:38:40 PM »
Foccaciaman:

I'm happy I was at home instead of eating award winning pizza at a festival.

Today, here's the steps that followed suit for my pizza experience, which is a cross between Neo-neopolitan & New York style, which I collectively refer to as NY style. The crust is chewy, slightly charred, bottom is crispy, and each slice is thicker near the outter crust, and slims down to a droop as it reaches a thinner skin at the end.

Today's bag of dough out of refrigerator (dough is not dry, yet no sticking after 2 days in refrigerator):
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/bagn.jpg)


Approx 14" Pepperoni/basil Pizza on serving tray (with 1 slice of grande/edam cheese only, hold the pepperoni/basil; nothing like customer service).  This was taken out of 530 F oven after dough sat for 40 minutes in a small bowl covered with a wet towel, no oils added to bowl:
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/pizzan.jpg)


Slice from pizza that starts as medium thickness near crust and comes to a thin ending
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/slicen.jpg)


Empty pizza pan waiting for next pizza in oven.
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/screenn.jpg)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2004, 08:41:17 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #110 on: August 13, 2004, 08:59:51 PM »
Pete-zza:

It looks like he is near the wine country, on the other side of the Golden Gate bridge.  I'll be in the vicinity this week; but I'm not sure if I want to stop by if he will not let me leave with some flour.  This sort of thing can cause people to go postal or something.

Are you saying that he would not ship his flour directly to you; but instead, you must go through Giusto's?  Did you say you have worked with Giusto's baker's and/or other variations before, mixed in with their vital (70% or so) gluten?  If so, what did you think?

His Artisan, so named after Giusto's Artisan, looks like about the same protein;  but his 12% and higher glutens are a departure.  Did he mention what the difference is between the composition and location of his wheat flours vs. Giusto's?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2004, 09:06:06 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #111 on: August 13, 2004, 09:45:35 PM »
Giotto,

It may be possible for you to buy some flour from Keith if you were to make prior arrangements to do so.  I would just call, at 1-707-794-9445, and ask the gal who answers if it is possible to buy some flour there at the bakery.  Keith said that he doesn't bag up flour in small amounts, so there may be some minimum purchase quantity.  It can't hurt to ask. Otherwise, the only viable alternative seems to be buying Keith's flours through Giusto's.  

I have not tried the Giusto flours.  I thought I might have bought some, without knowing it, from my local Whole Foods, but having called them yesterday it seems like I was using someone else's flour.

I did not think to ask Keith about all the differences between his flours and those of Giusto's, other than the fact that Keith apparently has his own milling company.  He did speak proudly, however, about the color (yellow) of his flours (one or more) and its apparent improved flavor contribution, which suggests that his flours may differ from those sold by Giusto's.  I should be able to learn more once I have a chance to speak to the Giusto contact Keith gave to me.  Keith offered to help me resolve any problems I might have in using his flours to make pizza doughs.  That's not an offer that many would be willing to make.  Clearly, it helped to mention Peter Reinhart's name.  As much an artisan that Keith is, I don't know that I would have gotten my foot in the door otherwise.    

Peter  

Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #112 on: August 13, 2004, 10:20:06 PM »
Thanks Pete-zza, interesting points Keith made about the colors of his flour.

I may call Giusto's as well in South San Francisco at 650-873-6566. They are not near as far away; but it's never clear if they actually have a front store open to the public, or ordering forum for just professionals with minimal orders.  I don't mind purchasing 50lb bags, which are usually about $10 or so; but when I get into $70 minimum orders to do a test, that's a different story.

Red hard wheat seems to go only so high in gluten levels.  So what is the difference between us mixing vital gluten, with higher gluten levels from the endosperm vs. what is delivered by the manufacturer in their higher gluten levels?  I'm wondering what I'll get by doing my own mix with Giusto's baker's unbleached bread flour with their vital gluten (in the bins at Whole Foods) vs. what is delivered by the manufacturer?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2004, 01:06:48 AM »
Giotto,

You can always add vital wheat gluten to other flours to increase the protein and gluten levels.  The main problem is determining how much to add and determining the final protein/gluten level without having some fancy instrument to do the measuring for you.  The usual recommendation is to add about 1-2 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten for each cup of flour that is to be augmented with the vital wheat gluten.   But, it is not clear for which type of flour.  That is, what are the specific amounts to add to all-purpose flour, bread flour, pastry flour or cake flour?  I once added 2 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten to each cup of cake flour and was able to make a pretty good pizza dough.  What I ended up with may no longer have been cake flour, but what was it then?  Maybe adding one or two teaspoons to any given type of flour ratches the protein/gluten level up to the next notch (like going from all-purpose flour to bread flour or bread flour to high-gluten flour).  I just don't know absent having some instrument to tell me what I did in precise terms.  

The more accurate way to do the augmentation, of course, is to use baker's percents, and in the case of vital wheat gluten, it is 2-4% by weight of flour.  So, unless you have an expensive and accurate scale, you will have to find another way to convert from weight to volume, or resort to trial and error and see how the dough shapes up and what kind of crust it produces.   Once you get a satisfactory result, then you will have the formula down pat and be able to replicate it.  But it is hardly a scientific way to do things.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #114 on: August 14, 2004, 02:59:40 AM »
Pete-zza:

I think the technique to do it is not so bad.  My concern was what is the difference between how I produce my outcome and the way manufacturer's produce their outcome of high gluten flours.  While I use a mix of vital gluten, the manufacturer probably uses different hard wheat berries, and I assume that they need to extract the endosperm as we do with vital gluten to get their high gluten levels of 13% and higher.

My way to calc protein is to first look up the exact protein levels according to spec sheets, using exact same 1/4 cup serving sizes.  Once I know that, then I can calculate exactly how much to add in order to obtain my expected gluten level.

I just bought some Giusto flour (75 cents/lb) and their gluten flour (2.29 lb), from the Whole Foods' bins.  One thing is for sure, the label is WAY OFF for the GIUSTO Baker's choice bread flour:
------------------------------------------
Nutritional Facts
Serving Size: 1/4 cup (30g)
Servings Per Container: 75  
 
Amount Per Serving
Calories 110  Calories from Fat 0  
 %Daily Value*  
 Total Fat  0.5g  0%  
   Saturated Fat  0g  0%  
Cholesterol  0mg  0%  
Sodium  0mg  0%  
Total Carbohydrates  23g  8%  
   Sugars  < 1g  
Protein  3g    
Vitamin A 0%    Vitamin C 0%  
Calcium 0%    Iron 8%  
 *Percentage Daily Values based on a 2,000 calorie diet.  
---------------------------------------
According to this, you'd get 10% protein which is unworthy of a label that uses the term "bread" on it.  As you know, their spec sheet states "11.7%".  If I didn't have their specs, then I've found it more favorable in the past to add PROTEIN + CARBS, and divide the total by PROTEIN.  In this case, it would give me: 3/(3 + 23) or 11.5%, a bit closer.  Best to use the specs when available as we've learned.

I'll let you know what I come up with as the final calculation for a mixture to arrive at 14%; I think in the past I calculated 1 tsp/cup for an all purpose 11.7%; I once tried 1 TBL per cup because I didn't calculate, and I got a board.

GOOD NEWS.  I realized that even though I had tried to do a special order with King Arthur high gluten through Whole Foods, I had not done this with Giusto's flour; so first things first.  I went in, asked for their "accepted" list of flours.  We combed through Giusto's, and sure ENOUGH, the following list is available for their higher gluten flours:

- Giusto unbleached Peak Performer Bread Flour (*12.68%)

- Guisto unbleached High Protein flour (Unknown)

- Guisto Ultimate Performance High Gluten flour (13 - 13.5% according to Guisto's specifications, not my calculation)

The last item is the only one available in a case of six 5lb bags; otherwise, they are each available in a 50lb bag.  I don't trust the 2nd item (high protein), because it looks like it is a whole wheat.

*The gluten level of the 1st item (peak performer bread flour) looks like it is 12.68%-- I didn't even know about this item.  The protein level was not available from Giusto, I had to find it in a study done on their product.

I'm going in tomorrow and doing an order.  I'll let you know other options for ordering from the store.  I think it is cheaper because you get a 15% or so discount when you order a case.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2004, 03:28:32 AM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2004, 04:02:52 AM »
I see Keith's Best listed by Giusto's; I'll have to see if Keith's higher gluten flour is available at Whole Foods-- I forgot to check if it was on Whole Foods list in their 2004 catalog.  

I know your interest in Keith's flour goes beyond gluten levels.  But as an FYI, you can get a higher gluten flour than Keith's best in Gold Medal Speciality unbleached bread flour, which is 12.7% (pre-sifted yellow bag available at just about any store).   KA's bread flour is 12.7% as well.   I actually had better results with Gold Medal's unbleached bread flour than with KA on one occassion.  

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2004, 10:19:00 AM »
Giotto,

I now better understand the question you were posing about comparable protein levels between what a manufacturer produces and what you might produce using vital wheat gluten.  I sometimes have wondered how manufacturers increase the gluten content of their flours, that is, by using a different type of wheat, adding additional gluten, or possibly both.  

Out of curiosity, I went to the PMQ site this morning and did a search on vital wheat gluten.  These days, vital wheat gluten often comes up in the context of low carb pizza but it also comes up in the context of increasing protein content as we have been discussing.  I found a couple of discussions on this latter aspect.  What I found says that "when adding gluten [vital wheat gluten] to a flour, remember that for each 250 grams that you add to 22.5 Kg of flour you will increase the total protein content of the flour by 0.6%. For example: If you have 22.5 Kg flour with 10% protein content and you add 500 grams of gluten, the protein content of the flour will now be 11.2%; if you were to add 1.250 Kg of gluten to the flour the protein content would increase to 13%, and so on",  and "for each 1% vital wheat gluten (based on flour weight) that you add, you will increase the protein content of the flour by 0.6%."  (Quoted material from PMQ).  I haven't gone through the math in detail but doing this calculation would seem to go a long way toward answering the question I posed in an earlier post about the effects of vital wheat gluten on transforming flour from one level to another (e.g., all-purpose flour to bread flour).

You indicate that you are inclined to buy flour in large quantity.   I have so many flours on hand that I tend to buy in only 5- and 10-pound bags.  The rated shelf life that millers use is about 1 year (in a cool, dark place in an airtight container), and I have limited freezer space to extend that shelf life.  Even at that, in Texas, where it gets quite toasty, I have found that I have to be careful not to have my flours infested with flour weevils. The flour weevils develop from eggs that are already in the flour at the time of purchase.  The first thing I do when I buy a new bag of flour is to freeze it for several days. The pre-freezing kills the eggs and allows me to keep the flour in my pantry rather than in the freezer.  The weevil problem is more common in warm climates, which provide a more hospitable and therapeutic environment for the flour weevils than colder climates.  Although their presence may be disturbing, the weevils are not harmful (they actually add a little bit more protein to your flour :)).  If there are only a few weevils, they can be sifted or scooped out.   However, if there is significant infestation, it is best to discard the flour and start all over with new flour that has been pre-frozen (for several days) to kill any weevil eggs that might be present.  After freezing, I then store the flour in airtight containers to prevent possible infestation from outside (the flour weevils can eat through the paper bags used to package flour).  

Some home bakers recommend putting bay leaves in the flour containers to deter flour weevils.  I have a bay leaf plant (it's closer to a tree) in my back yard with about five lifetimes' worth of bay leaves, and have put them all over my pantry where my flour is stored, in with flour, in the containers, etc. However, I have not found doing so to be effective.  I found pre-freezing to be the only remedy to work for me.

Peter




Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #117 on: August 14, 2004, 03:44:13 PM »
Pete-zza:

Thanks for the update.  I have no choice but to buy bulk, at least six 5 lb bags, which will last me about 2 months.  Our house is 73 F most of the summer, no air conditioning required; pantry is a bit less. But a couple weeks out of the year, it can go up.  Sounds best to do the freeze trick.

I had seen the PMQ calc some time back; but I need to revisit it.

Here is my calculation:

Giusto's protein levels: bakers flour: 11.5%; vital wheat: 70%  

Hi-Gluten Preference, so I can compare it to what I purchase: 13.5%

Protein grams per 1/4 cup volume (30g): Bakers flour=3.45g; vital wheat gluten=21g; Hi-Gluten Preference=4.05g

Additonal Protein required for Bakers flour per 1/4 cup: 4.05g - 3.45g = .60g

Vital Gluten Portions required per 1/4 cup: 21g/.60g = 35 portions of vital gluten per 1/4 cup

Convert Vital Gluten Portions to tsp: 1/4 cup = 12 tsp; hence, 2.9167 Vital Gluten portions per tsp or .3429 of a tsp

Now multiple by 8 to account for 2 cups = 8*.3429 = 2.74 tsp of vital gluten for 2 cups of flour using 11.5g Bakers flour

Add 2.74 tsp of 70% protein vital gluten to Bakers flour to raise 2 cups of flour from 11.5% to 13.5% protein.  Keep in mind that King Arthur's all purpose is 11.7%, so this pretty much applies to it as well.

Let us see what happens if I use the 1% rule of thumb:

.01 * 21g = .21g of vital gluten per 1/4 cup will give me .6% increase in gluten level.

I need 2% increase in protein: 2%/.6% = 3.3333 times; 3.3333 x .21g = .6993g of vital gluten per 1/4 cup

According to the 1% calc; I'd add .69g more of vital gluten; opposed to .60 that I came up with.  Seems close.  Let us see the difference.

21g/.69 = 30.4348 portions of vital gluten per 1/4 cup

Convert Vital Gluten Portions to tsp: 1/4 cup = 12 tsp; hence, 2.5362 Vital Gluten portions per tsp or .3943 of a tsp

Now multiple by 8 to account for 2 cups = 8*.3493 = 3.15 tsp of vital gluten for 2 cups of flour using 11.5g Bakers flour

According to 1% rule, I would add 3.15 tsp (opposed to 2.74 tsp) of 70% protein vital gluten to Bakers flour to raise 2 cups of flour from 11.5% to 13.5% protein.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2004, 04:57:33 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #118 on: August 14, 2004, 07:13:10 PM »
Giotto,

Nice job on your analysis.

To be sure I understand the analysis, does the 4.05 gram figure represent the number of grams of protein for a 1/4-cup portion of an existing Giusto flour with 13.5% protein (a Giusto spec figure), and did you weigh a 1/4-cup portion of the vital wheat gluten to get the 21 gram figure?  And is there any way to tell which of the two approaches you used is the more accurate one?  Your analysis seems to suggest that one can effectively convert all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour by adding about 3 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten to each 2 cups of all-purpose flour.  I realize that the precise amount will depend on the percent of protein in the all-purpose flour and the particular vital wheat gluten used--which may vary from brand to brand--but I would think that about 3 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten for each 2 cups of all-purpose flour would pretty much do the trick for almost any brand of all-purpose flour.  Does that seem about right?

Your analysis prompted me to order a new scale today, a digital Soehnle scale like I read about some time ago at this forum.

Peter


Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2004, 02:37:11 AM »
I went to see the movie, Open Waters.  Let me just say that it is best not to stray from a spot, unless someone you know is at the spot.  Now that I'm totally depressed from the movie, let me see if I can answer your questions.

In general, I've worked in entire industries that relied on rule of thumbs (ROTs), and I've generated my share of them.  When I see things like 1%, I see signs of a rule of thumb, which is meant to get customers within an acceptable level, while reducing error by its consistency and simplification.  My calculation, on the other hand, considers only the actual numbers from the manufacturer and was used to verify the accuracy of the 1% number.

The calculation can have a degree of inaccuracy, depending on these factors that come to mind:

1) The number of decimal positions.  I used 4 which has negligible impact on the final number.

2) The variation given by the manufacturer. In the case of Keith and Giusto's, for example, they provide their specifications within a given range.  Giusto's Baker's flour is 11% - 11.5% in their specs; I decided to choose 11.5%.

3) Unless you work with the manufacturer specs, the numbers extracted from the labels can be inconsistent, with wide variations.  All Purpose standards call for 9% - 12%; bread flour calls for 12 - 13%; and high gluten up to 15%.  Yet, Giusto's 11.5% "bread" flour does not fall within standard labeling convention (it's even less than KA's All Purpose).  In addition, the numbers on the labels can be way off because of the rounding you mentioned.  Giusto's label says "3 g protein for 30g serving."  This is 10%, which is way off from their 11.7% in their specs.

4) Do you add the Vital Gluten to 2 cups; or do you extract the number of Vital Gluten tsp from the Baker's flour to create a total of 2 cups?  In either case, you will be a bit off, since the calculation is based on 2 cups, not 2 cups +/- the amount of vital gluten (in this case, about 1 TBL).

Q #1: does the 4.05 gram figure represent the number of grams of protein for a 1/4-cup portion of an existing Giusto flour with 13.5% protein (a Giusto spec figure), and did you weigh a 1/4-cup portion of the vital wheat gluten to get the 21 gram figure?

Response: Since manufacturer specifications were available, I was able to avoid the use of labels, and produce the actual protein levels per 1/4 cup (30 g serving).  I am able to reverse engineer the formula you normally use to determine % proteins, since I am working with manufacturer specs for % protein that have not been rounded.

Bakers flour is 11.5% Protein: .115 * 30g (1/4 cup total serving) = 3.45g.

vital wheat gluten is 70%:  .7 * 30g = 21g

Hi-Gluten Preference is an arbitrary number. I picked 13.5% protein because that is what their protein level is that I am looking to purchase, and I want to be able to compare the differencs between how I achieve these numbers, and however Giusto's achieve their high gluten level.  The protein level was achieved by:  .135 * 30g = 4.05g
   
Question #2: is there any way to tell which of the two approaches you used is the more accurate one?

Response:  Rule of Thumbs normally pick a sweet spot and the accuracy goes down as you deviate from the sweet spot.  The calculation does not rely on a statistical reference, and is as accurate as the multiplication and division used within the equation.  In both cases, they rely on numbers not from the manufacturer, which is far better if provided by the manufacturer, rather than the label.

Question #3: Your analysis seems to suggest that one can effectively convert all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour by adding about 3 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten to each 2 cups of all-purpose flour.  I realize that the precise amount will depend on the percent of protein in the all-purpose flour and the particular vital wheat gluten used--which may vary from brand to brand--but I would think that about 3 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten for each 2 cups of all-purpose flour would pretty much do the trick for almost any brand of all-purpose flour.  Does that seem about right?

Response: Well, 11.7% is at the high end of the All Purpose flour, and as long as you use King Arthur, you're within this number.  But, if you use other All Purpose or Unbleached White Flours, the 11.7% can easily be 1% over in protein.  As you move into the Bread flours, you will be off by 1% the other way and you only need to add 1.1 tsp of vital to these flours (e.g., KA Bread & Gold Medal Specialty Bread are examples of 12.7%).  

I did the calculation for Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten, since it is readily available at different stores in small bags, including Whole Foods (I even saw it at Safway or Albertsons).  It has very little impact, since it is 23g (just over 75% protein according to specs) instead of Giusto's 21g vital gluten.  For Giusto's Baker's Bread or KA All Purpose, you need to add 2 1/2 tsp (2.5) of Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten.

Hence: To reach a high gluten level of 13.5%,

* Add just under 1 TBL (3 tsp) of Giusto's 70% Vital Gluten or 2 1/2 tsp of Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten to KA's All Purpose flour or Giusto's Baker's flour.  

* Add just over 1 tsp of Giusto's Vital Gluten or exactly 1 tsp of Bob's Red Mill to either KA's Bread or Gold Medal Specialty Bread flour (5 lb yellow bag available just about anywhere).

The 13.5% was used with Giusto's high gluten in mind.  Other High Gluten flours are around 14.1% protein. Since Vital Glutens, such as Bob's Red Mill, is from the endosperm, it is similar to unbleached wheat flour that usually discards the outside bran, which is found in whole wheat.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2004, 05:01:15 AM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2004, 11:39:39 AM »
Giotto,

I didn't mean to put you to all that work, but many thanks.  And what you did clearly demonstrates how much of making pizza doughs is science--entailing accurate measurements and quantities.  

I assume that the additions of vital wheat gluten would be for 2-cup quantities of flour.  If so, I would be inclined to convert to 1-cup quantities just to be able to remember the numbers more easily.  

Thanks again.

Peter

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2004, 11:35:58 PM »
Pete-zza:  

I agree. One cup is always good.  I tend to mess up unfortunately when I make multiple pizzas with a one cup formula memorized, because I end up employing only the one cup amount for an entire pizza... go figure.

Now that you are going to have a digital weighing machine, I am restating it in exact terms of grams and ounces:

To reach a high gluten level of 13.5% for 2 cups of flour (i.e., 240g or 8.43 oz), less the amount used for the additional vital gluten flour*:

- Add just under 1 TBL (3 tsp) of Giusto's 70% Vital Gluten or 2 1/2 tsp of Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten to KA's All Purpose flour or Giusto's Baker's flour.  Start with 240g of flour, then reduce it by the amount of vital gluten added, enabling the entire mix to equal to 240g.  

- Add just over 1 tsp of Giusto's Vital Gluten or exactly 1 tsp of Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten to either KA's Bread or Gold Medal Specialty Bread flour (5 lb yellow bag available just about anywhere).  Start with 240g of flour, then reduce it by the amount of vital gluten added, enabling the entire mix to equal to 240g.

Hence, if working with Gold Medal Specialty Bread flour or KA Bread flour & Bob's Red Mill Vital Gluten, start with 240g (or 8.43oz) of flour, reduce by 1 tsp, then add 1 tsp of Bob's Vital Gluten to reach an overall protein level of 13.5% protein and 240g of weight.

*I realize now that the calculation requires the final result to include the vital gluten as part of the final weight, which is 240g or 8.43 oz in this scenario.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2004, 12:03:38 AM by giotto »

Offline Randy

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2004, 10:46:43 AM »
Gitto try KA's high gluten flour, you will throw away that can of vitual gluten.

Randy

Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2004, 01:25:43 PM »
Randy:

You need to look at the past trail on this.  When guys like Chris Bianco can demand 2 hour waits and the respect of guys like Reinhart by using a Giusto blend, and I can make pizzas look like this with other flours, I'd like to avoid paying $13.50 with shipping for a high gluten from a vendor I have not been all that impressed with in the past.

The objective here has been to compare Guisto's high gluten flour at 13.5%, with a blend of Giusto's flours that will reach 13.5%, and see how they compare to each other.  Fortunately, both are locally available to me.

Using an All Purpose mixed flour from a local vendor-- a slightly crispy and wonderfully chewy crust.

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/all-hold.jpg)

Using a 12.7% standard bread flour:

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/pizza3.jpg)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2004, 01:44:48 PM by giotto »

Offline giotto

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2004, 02:15:58 PM »
I'm stoked.  Whole Foods called me, my order that I put in yesterday for Giusto's Unbleached Ultimate Performance high gluten is in.  I got a case of 6, 5lb bags, for $25 less 10% discount-- $3.75 a bag.

Pete-zza, I'm happpy you discovered that Chris Bianco uses Guisto's.  I had heard of them before, but did not realize they were local.  I now have access to an unbleached high gluten flour with no shipping costs, along with their other flours.  I'll keep you posted on how their flours turn out for me.