N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique

[Foccaciaman]

It was next on my list and then I stopped making pizza for about a week or so.
Then I made one for my wife yesterday with a quick 2 hour rise.
Actually turned out to be one of the better New York Styles I have made.
2 cups KA Flour
3/4 cup of water + 2 tblsp
1.5 tsp yeast
1 tbls honey
2 tbls olive oil
2 tsp sugar
2 tsp kosher salt
Makes 1 16"

Knead on low 4 min, rest 4 min, knead on medium 5 min.  Finish kneading by hand 1 min.

New Sauce mixture:
1 can 6 in 1
1.5 tsp salt
1/4 tsp b pepper
2 tsp Penzy's pizza spice mixture ( this stuff is great, never liked mixes before but this makes a good sauce)
2 tsp sugar
1 can italian tomato paste.

Going to try your recipe next Pierre.

[Randy]

Penzeys has some great stuff.  The pizza blend is one of the best.

Randy

[Pierre]

DKM, you'll find the recipe in the middle of page one of this thread...

[Foccaciaman]

Penzy's got me hooked with their chili powder
I buy the hot for myself and the medium for the wife.
Best damn chili powder I have ever found.
Lucky for me there is a Penzy's store about 20 min from my house.

[Randy]

The first time I made pizza sauce with it I tasted it fresh from the stove and was not impressed but when I tasted it on the pizza, it was wonderful.  Later I added the teaspoon of sugar and then it was better than ever.  The Italian mix is great for spaghetti sauce and mixed with oil and vinegar makes the best-grilled chicken.  In addition, the Vietnamese cinnamon is outrageously good.  The medium chili powder is what I use for chili and enchilada sauce.

Randy

[Foccaciaman]

I'll have to try the cinnamon for sure.  
What is your enchilada sauce recipe?

[Les]

I posted this here since "dough" is in the thread title.  Can anyone tell me, when leaving dough to rise overnight in the refrigerator, do you store it in an airtight container?  

[Steve]

Yes.  

I use those 5 quart plastic icecream buckets.

[Foccaciaman]

I use the large ziploc freezer bags.

[Les]

Thanks guys.

[lucifer]

Can anyone tell me what a True New Yorker (tm) would have to say about a little tabsco addition to the sauce?   say 5-7 shakes of the bottle?

I reckon it adds a nice little zing, but as an Aussie, wouldn't know if it's kosher for a "New York Style Pizza"

[Pizzaholic]

les
my two bits
I use a kitchenaid mixer and spray the mix bowls after mixing with classico olive oil and roll the dough balls around to coat them. ( btw I cut the dough in two and use both mixing bowls for the fermentation)
I have covered the oiled dough balls with plastic wrap and then sealed off the tops of the bowls with plastic wrap. Essentially a double seal.
It works well for me and the plastic does not stick to the dough and does not stop the dough from rising.
I have used oiled ziplocs also and they work well.

Lucifer
I am not from NY, but I know what I like. Go ahead and use the Tabasco in your sauce. Its a matter of taste and if you like it, you've got taste. Another thing you might try is Bruces pepper sauce, its peppers marinating in vinager. Tastes great on cooked pizza to me.
Have at it mate!!
Pizzaholic

[canadave]

Lucifer--

I'm a native New Yorker, and I can tell you that the main determinant of a true NY pizza isn't so much the taste of the sauce as it is the style of the dough and the size of the pizza.  That being said, I don't think I've ever tasted a NY pizza that had the taste of some tabasco in it.  But as Arthur said, go ahead and use it, see if it tastes good...if it does, who cares if it's authentic or not?

Dave

[Foccaciaman]

Made a shrimp(under the cheese), mozzarella, sliced tomato, baby spinach leaf and basil leaf pizza for lunch. Wow knocked my socks off.
Sauce
1 tb butter
1 tb Oilive oil
.5 tsp Kosher Salt
1/4 tsp black pepper
1/4 tsp onion powder
2 cloves garlic
1/4 tsp lemon pepper
1 small red scallion minced
7 min @ 550  very crispy and delicious.

[giotto]

Based on my past experience and preference, I do not believe that pizza needs to go in the oven within 24 hours after it is prepared.  In fact, I find that the best tasting crust is produced when the dough is left in the refrigerator for 24 - 72 hours, and I've found this to be true with smaller pizzeria establishments as well.

By following some techniques, you'll find that the balance of salt, yeast and refrigeration really is key to the amount of sugar that is left for the palette, rather than merely creating a feeding frenzy for yeast.  

- When dough is placed in the refrigerator within 15 minutes after it is kneaded, the delay in the fermentation process is very noticable.   I have witnessed this step among professionals when invited into their back kitchens as well.  

- 2 cups of flour (9 ounces of flour) is plenty for a 14" pizza tossed, which is thin, yet not cracker thin (the slice below held by a friend is a typical size).

- I respect the idea that you should not rely on added sugar to create a great tasting pizza, unless you expect to get a great wine by adding sugar to grape juice as Peter R would suggest.  I have been able to get great tasting dough in a 14" pizza with much less than 1 TBL of sugar.

- NY recipes with a 1/2 tsp of yeast should be plenty.  

- Less than a 1 tsp of salt should do the trick as well.  Since yeast does not like salt though, I don't like the idea of adding both of them into a process at the same time.

- The full sugar is not available after it is kneaded.  Enzymes need to spend hours to release the sugars buried in the flour's starches.  Enzymes are willing to work for you, so give them time to do good work for you.

- I love San Francisco sour dough.  Although I don't necessarily try to create a sour dough starter, the acids that form during the fermentation period help create a great tasting dough.  As one person who creates outstanding natural and professional tasting food said to me, if you could let the dough get really really ugly, the better off you'd be with its taste.

Well, I have to admit, when I took out a dough from the refrigerator today that was a good week old, it was real ugly.  But it wasn't a first for me.  A friend asked me what the different colors were all about (so much for letting the customer in the kitchen).  As you can see in the 2nd picture, it had no problem browning around the edges, with plenty of rise at 530 F.  

Unfortunately, I did not have my usual Grande cheese around, so I had to use a pre-shredded cheese which is always garbage and sure to burn and dry out at 530 F... which it did.  But the dough tasted great and formed nicely, and the herb-based olive oil and fresh basil came through, and the pepperoni reminded me why it's a top seller in the US.  

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/slice3a.jpg)

(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/browna.jpg)

[giotto]

I saw a person's comment that people should not waste their time trying to make pizza in a home oven.

When it comes to dinner, I am starting to find it difficult to enjoy pizza any other way.  There is simply nothing like a full course meal served on a crispy crust, which includes sauteed spinach, fresh organic tomatoes, mozzarella cheese with olive oil and fresh garden herbs, and some good ol' pepperoni topped with oak aged feta cheese and a few strands of whole milk grande cheese-- all for a cost of about $5.

                    (http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/pizza3a.jpg)

[itsinthesauce]

I totally agree.

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

Usually the people who disparage the use of home ovens to make pizzas are people who have close ties to professional pizza making.  In a similar vein, I read a comment from an industry professional who referred to home KitchenAid stand mixers as "stocking stuffers".  

I truly believe that the home pizza maker has advantages over the professional pizza maker.  The greatest challenge to the home pizza maker is to find the finest ingredients at reasonable prices.  However, there is no profit motive involved.  So, unlike the professional pizza maker, who is in the business to make a profit, there is no need to cut corners or take shortcuts to save time or labor costs, or to look for cheaper ingredients or substitutes, or to pre-portion and pre-weigh everything, or to use pre-prepared pizza ingredients and techniques that are geared to high-volume commercial production.  Consequently, in almost all cases, your pizzas will be of higher quality than those made by most professionals.  You can be a true pizzaiolo. To be sure, there are some professionals who will be uncompromising in the quality of the pizzas they produce, and have the best equipment available to them (like great ovens), but they are in the minority and generally cater to an upscale audience who are willing and able to pay for that high level of quality.

And, how many times have the people who have eaten your home-baked pizzas told you that the pizzas were the best they have ever eaten?  Plenty, I'll bet.

Peter  

[Pete-zza]

Giotto,

With a few minor exceptions, I pretty much agree with everything you say about pizza ingredients and technique.  

I am generally inclined to use less yeast, and little or no sugar unless I expect a long period of fermentation.  I am also not as hard on shredded mozzarella cheese as you are.  

On the matter of yeast amount, I recently made a New York style pizza for a family member, using a recipe I found at the Recipe Bank at PMQ.   Thanks to people like Pierre and others at this forum who had weighed out different dough ingredients, including yeast, to facilitate weight to volume conversions, I was able to scale down the recipe to a volume of dough sufficient to make two 14-inch pizzas, the largest size the pizza peel and the pizza stone could safely hold.  (Admittedly, Foccaciaman's recent experience with the pizzaoilo devil nervously coursed through my brain).  The recipe was optional as to the use of sugar, so I used none.  The flour was a high-gluten flour (I used KA Sir Lancelot flour).  The amount of yeast, which I converted to instant yeast, was a little bit less than 1/8 teaspoon--actually closer to 1/16 teaspoon.  Needless to say, my relative was flabbergasted to see me use such a minuscule amount of instant yeast, especially for a high-gluten flour in the amount used.  I used a food processor, cool water, a 10-minute autolyse, and strove--successfully--for a dough temperature of around 80 degrees F.   I scaled the dough and divided it into two balls, oiled them lightly, put them into separate, covered bowls, and immediately put them into the refrigerator.  

The first pizza, a pepperoni pizza, was baked the next day, after a bit more than 24 hours of refrigeration of the dough and a period of about 2 hours rise at room temperature prior to shaping and dressing.   Because of other commitments, the second pizza, a sausage pizza with sauteed multi-color peppers and red onions, wasn't prepared until about 3 days later, or a total of 96 hours for the dough in the refrigerator.  The dough was pretty much on its last legs at this time but it shaped up nicely and the pizza turned out just fine, with pronounced flavors that are characteristic of prolonged rise times.  Like the more youthful first pizza, it received rave reviews from a hard-to-please crowd.  But what impressed me the most was how little yeast is actually needed to make pizzas, so little that I am tempted to see what the miminum amount really is, particularly if I am willing to give the dough time to develop and evolve.  Of course, there are times when you would like to have your pizza while you are still young, and, in those instances, you can alter the ingredients and quantities and times and temperatures to achieve a faster pizza, all as have been chronicled at this forum many times before.

As for shredded mozzarella cheese, I, too, prefer several of the other alternatives better, but there are times where they aren't readily available.  I have many times made pizzas for others and the only cheese handed to me was shredded mozarella cheese.   Invariably, using a heavy hand to minimize premature browning, they have worked out fine.  It's only the very finely shredded or diced mozzarella cheeses that come in little plastic bags that have given me fits.  Usually, I found that I could add those cheeses to the pizzas part way through baking and achieve at least moderate success.  Most people have come to accept mediocrity in their lives that they don't even notice the difference.   I just smile and accept the accolades.

Peter

[giotto]

Thank you and Amen regarding the disparagers.  Pete-zza has rightfully put together all the reasons.  I'm fortunate to have come across such a quality forum.  

Admittingly, different packages of cheese produce different results.  It's the smaller packages, anti-caking and "smoked" ingredients, and the inability to control the amounts and quality of different cheeses when combining them that motivate me to shred my own.

The comment regarding how people react to a pizza is very perceptive.  THERE is a big difference between the ol "this is really good" followed by the inevitable question "have you tried...?" vs. a spirited "wow, this is the best pizza that I have ever had," followed by the names of reputable and sometimes incredibly expensive pizzerias that don't compare.

The challenging part for me is to avoid the costs of that profitability index so notably menioned earlier, only to become that student who just automatically starts getting an "A", regardless of what is churned out.  We have to remind ourselves of our initial goals and resist those temptations to just drop the ball in the end, regardless if others let us get away with it.  

Regarding yeast, I've been quite successful as well with as little as 1/4 tsp.  But, I needed to adjust for things like how I handled the proofing phase and how I timed the temperature changes in the dough after it was made.  Lately, I've been having fun (did I say work was fun?) testing the affect of NOT using yeast as an ingredient-- not directly anyways.  Instead, I've been leveraging the tastes formed with acid producing dough as a starter for newer dough.  I'm thinking that attaining a 100 year-old starter might be intriguing (I'm not sure what will look worse in the end, me or it).  I've been avoiding multiple steps used to create sourdough; but heeding the warnings of killing the yeast up front.  Nothing like another chemistry endeavor where the concept of feel doesn't enter the picture until a later time.