Author Topic: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique  (Read 57987 times)

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Offline emo

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #150 on: October 05, 2004, 01:01:45 PM »
Okay! Well... made it last night... and i'm not sure if I did something wrong, but the dough didn't seem too stretchy, and tore a few holes.

Also... the oven wasn't cleaned from a couple of nights before, which I didn't realise till after the pizza was out... but it gave it a nice wood smoke flavour :P

If anyone can offer advice about what to do with the dough once I've taken it out the fridge and let it come up to room temp. In terms of preparing it for stretching.
Thanks
« Last Edit: October 05, 2004, 01:02:30 PM by emo »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #151 on: October 05, 2004, 04:21:04 PM »
emo,

In your previous posting, you indicated that you had followed Pierre's recipe for the dough (on the first page of this thread).  I assume that the recipe you are referring to is the one with the ingredients specified in the metric system.  Is that correct, and, if so, did you convert from metric to the U.S. standard?  If I have the right recipe in mind, the recipe is a fundamentally sound NY style recipe (actually it bears a lot of similarity to the Lehmann NY style dough recipe), and contains explicit instructions for shaping.  

Once you confirm your recipe, we may be able to provide a diagnosis or offer suggestions.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #152 on: October 05, 2004, 04:40:55 PM »
EMO not sure which recipe you used but here are some possiable causes.
1 the dough was too dry.
2. wrong kind of flour.
3. to short of knead time.
If I were to guess i would say your dough was dry.  It should have been pretty sticky.
Tell us the flour you used and did you mix by hand or somethign like a KitchenAid

EMO how about starting a new topic like EMO pizza.  This thread is way to large.  If Peter would do the same we will let this one slip into the archives unless someone objects.



Randy
« Last Edit: October 05, 2004, 04:43:55 PM by Randy »

Offline Pierre

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #153 on: October 11, 2004, 05:12:47 PM »
EMO... Hi, sorry for the delay. I somehow oversaw this thread with your posting. You wrote that the dough tore in a few places and was not very "stretchy".

If my calculations are correct (maybe Petezza could check  ; the hydration level in my recipe above is 72%, which is quite high. I incorporate 180 ml of water into the flour that I use and the flour is able to handle that without being overly "Sticky". Be sure to use a flour with a higher gluten content.

I incorporate the oil in last to allow the flour to absorb as much water as possible. Something Pete has correctly noted... it is a techinque that I without knowing is used also by Tom Lehmann. After mixing in the oil the resulting dough should be very silky and smooth. After an appropriate rising time the dough should be very pliable (depending on how strong the gluten is, you may need to give the dough a rest in between) and "Stretchy".

You stated that the dough tore on several places and was not very stretchy. The advise given by Randy and Peter are correct. Check back, let us know what flour you used and if your conversions were correct. I (we) will help you as best we can.

Maybe I should post up the recipe in US Imperial weights. I prefer the metric system because it is finer in grade and because water in Milliliters (volumetric)  is approximately the same in grams as well. Maybe you made a mistake in the water conversion?

Slight adjustments will always be necessary due to differences in flour....

Pierre

Offline canadave

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #154 on: October 11, 2004, 05:17:08 PM »
Pierre,

Perhaps even if you double-checked the quantities you listed in your recipe when you posted it here?  I tried your recipe some time ago, and I found the same thing as emo--it way too wet.  I couldn't work with it at all, it was just a mess :(  So maybe there's a mistake in the recipe?  A typo?

--Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re:N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #155 on: October 11, 2004, 08:42:09 PM »
Pierre,

I was reluctant to dig into your recipe for NY style dough until I was certain that we had the right recipe, and that emo was, in fact, using that recipe.  But, now that your recipe is being discussed, I have taken a shot at converting your flour and water quantities into weights to determine the hydration percentage.  Your recipe calls for 250 grams of flour, and with 1 pound weighing 453.6 grams, that comes to 0.55 pounds, or 8.82 ounces.  Your water quantity is 180 ml, and with 1 ml being approximately equal to 1 gram (as you correctly indicated), 180 grams weighs 0.3968 pounds, or 6.35 ounces.  Dividing 6.35 by 8.82, we get a water hydration percentage of 72 percent.  That is also the number you came up with.  

emo indicated that the dough he made following your recipe (whichever one that was) "didn't seem too stretchy, and tore a few holes".  If by "stretchy" emo meant that the dough was too elastic and not particularly extensible, then the only way that I can see how that could happen with a high-hydration dough (and certainly 72% is very high for a NY style dough) is if emo reballed the dough ball when it came out of the refrigerator.  I notice that the instructions for your recipe call for doing this, if I interpret your instructions correctly.  Reballing or reshaping a dough ball when it comes out of the refrigerator for some reason causes the gluten to become disoriented again and form a new matrix that is highly elastic and with very little extensibilty.  If you try to shape the dough under these circumstances, it will keep on springing back and be hard to shape, and can result in holes developing as attempts are made to pull or stretch the dough outwardly.  About the only way that one can overcome this problem is to let the dough rest for 15-25 minutes so that the gluten can relax again.  You can do this at room temperature or you can put the dough back into the refrigerator again and try to shape it later.  Even then, the dough won't be perfect.  But you should be able to shape the dough sufficiently well to make a pizza.  I don't know if this is what emo experienced, so until he tells us we won't really know whether it was emo or the recipe that was at fault.  Tom L. calls reballing or re-rounding a dough just before shaping (after it comes out of the refrigerator) a "bad habit" and says that doing so will result in snap-back every time.  I tested the concept on a batch of dough recently and concluded that Tom was right.  It took over 15 minutes to get the dough to lose its newfound elasticity and regain its extensibilty enough to work with the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 11, 2004, 08:52:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2006, 12:13:24 PM »
I am always looking for new NY style dough recipes to try out. Recently, as I was searching for information on the forum, I came across the NY style dough recipe that was posted some time ago in this thread, at Reply #24, by (inactive) member Pierre. I had reviewed the recipe once before, as noted in the last post, but had not actually attempted the recipe myself. So, recently, I decided to give the recipe a try.

I made a few changes to Pierre’s basic recipe. First, I scaled the recipe up to make a 16-inch pizza rather than the 12-inch size that Pierre’s recipe is intended to produce. Second, I used a lower hydration ratio. As previously noted, by my estimation, Pierre’s recipe calls for about 72% hydration. Third, I let the dough cold ferment for 3 days rather than one. Fourth, since Pierre’s recipe didn’t specify an oven temperature for preheating the stone, I used around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was baked using my more or less standard screen/stone combination rather than using the stone only. Apart from the hydration level I used, I stayed within the baker’s percents I arrived at for Pierre’s recipe.

The only difficulty I had making the dough was in being able to get around 72% hydration. The best I could do using the protocol specified by Pierre’s recipe was around 63%. The addition of the olive oil and the sesame oil, at around 7.5% total, also meant a wetter dough than usual. During the three-day period the dough was in the refrigerator, it rose very little during the first two days but started to expand over the last day, by about a total of 50 percent. This is also quite common for a cold-fermented dough using very small amounts of yeast (0.30% IDY in this case), and particularly for one using water on the cool side.  I allowed the dough to warm up to about 62 degrees F before using it to make a pizza. I did not re-ball the dough as Pierre’s instructions called for because I was fearful that doing so would cause the dough to become too elastic to shape and stretch. As it turned out, the dough was very extensible (stretchy) but with care I was able to stretch it out to 16-inches and dress it on my 16-inch pizza screen. The pizza was a combination of pepperoni and mushroom.

The photos below show the finished product. As I expected, the finished crust was very soft with a tender crumb, which I attributed to the large amount of oil (around 7.5%) and sugar (around 4.8%). From my experience, this is quite characteristic of the NY styles that use large amounts of oil and sugar (although some might argue that it is closer to an American style). The pizza also baked faster than I expected, which had the added effect of producing a softer crust because the shorter bake time didn’t allow for the moisture in the dough to escape fast enough to produce a drier crust. The oil in the dough also works against this effect by trying to "seal" the water within the dough. The total bake time in my case was around 6 minutes, and because the bottom of the crust had quickly darkened because of the sugar in the dough, I couldn’t prolong the bake time any further. As a result, the top crust was also a little bit lighter than usual. In retrospect, I think the better approach would have been to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. I was pleased, however, with the taste of the crust and pizza. I could detect a slight sweetness in the crust, which I usually prefer to avoid, but it was not bothersome. I could not specifically detect the flavor of the sesame oil although I could smell it as I was making and shaping the dough. But none of these factors detracted from the overall enjoyment of the pizza.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 07:04:28 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline foodblogger

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #157 on: February 10, 2006, 02:54:25 PM »
That looks delicious.  I'm hungry now.

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #158 on: February 11, 2006, 03:52:34 PM »
According to your formula petezza, From what I remember its W= (Pi x R x R) x F.  Now I remember that in my old pizzeria a 16" pizza weighed somewhere around 20-22 oz.  Since it is new york style, it will be thin, but here in buffalo, I find the crust to be a little more thicker, so I will choose a thickness factor between 10-11. So from what I remember from algebra, 20-22, should be a good weight.  22oz would yield a thickness factor of 10.95, so should be good.  Now pete-zza, you seem to know what your doing mathwise, could you (or show me how) to get a lehman recipe that would yield a TF of 10.9 for a 16" pie??   I remember taking your recipe for an 18" and stretching it to a 16", it turned out great, I added a little more olive oil and 1/2tsp sugar and i used a cake yeast instead (about 3/4 a square).  But that dough was too heavy, about 26 oz.  now if i could get it to weigh 22 oz.  I tried this dough today:

16" pie:

3 1/2 c  KA bread (sifted)
1 1/8 c  filtered water 105F
1 1/8 t  ADY
3 t        Olive Oil
1/2 t     Sugar
1 1/4 t  Salt (iodized)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 05:19:05 PM by RockyMarciano »


Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #159 on: February 11, 2006, 04:06:06 PM »
Also what do you guys think about SIFTING the flour??   I used KA bread flour cos thats what the store had.  I'd like to try hi-gluten and 00 flours as well, and ive gotten good results from AP too.  What about Knead time??  I usually hand knead,  for about 8 minutes.  Now rise time, Ive heard anywhere from 1-4days in the fridge and 1-5 hours outside to proof. ??  And yeasts, theres cake yeast, ady, and idy.  We used cake yeast in the pizzeria.  ??  Pans or screens?? I used both, a criscoed aluminum pizza pan works well, the pizza is more greasy, a screen gives a browner crust, but ive only seen pans used in most of the pizzeria's here, but screens work well too.  The key is the oven, gas cast iron blodgett deck ovens are the ultimate oven imo.  Anyway for sauce, this is what ive been doing, since I didnt get any san marzano's yet,  I take 8 oz of cento crushed tomatoes, add 1 1/2 tsp sugar, add tsp olive oil and stir, then put it on the pizza, and sprinkle a good amout of fine oregano, then sprinkle with salt and pepper and lightly sprinkle garlic powder (or stir in the fresh kind) and romano cheese.  Then I shred some whole milk low moisture mozzerella and top with margherita brand pepperoni and maybe some hot banana peppers and some canned mushrooms.  As far as slapping the dough out, im trying to master all the spin tricks and %$#& my boss does.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 04:10:49 PM by RockyMarciano »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #160 on: February 11, 2006, 06:59:31 PM »
Rocky,

Your math is correct. When I use a thickness factor of 0.10 for a basic 16-inch Lehmann NY style dough, the dough weight is 20.11 ounces. When I use a thickness factor of 0.105 to get a slightly thicker crust, the dough weight is 21.11 ounces. Those numbers fit quite well with what you remember about the old pizzeria you worked for. If we use your thickness factor of 0.1095, the dough weight works out to 22.02 ounces. And this is what the formulation looks like when using the 0.1095 thickness factor.

Rocky's Personal 16-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
100%, Flour (high-gluten or bread), 13.28 oz. (376 g.)
63%, Water, 8.36 oz. (236.88 g.), a bit over 1 c.
1.75%, Salt, 0.23 oz. (6.58 g.), a bit less than 1 1/4 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.94 g.), a bit less than 1/3 t.
1%, Oil, 0.13 oz. (3.76 g.), between 3/4 and 7/8 t.
Total Dough weight = 22.02 oz. (624 g.)
Thickness factor = 0.1095

I notice that you have mentioned using cake yeast at work and that the dough you are currently making uses ADY. I note also that you like using a bit of sugar and more yeast and oil than the basic Lehmann formulation. It is very simple to tweak the formulation given above to use just about anything you want. If you intend to use bread flour, we might even lower the hydration by a percent or two to reflect the lower protein content of the bread flour. It's easy enough to do so if you tell me what you want like the "final" Lehmann dough to look like, I should be able to give you the corresponding formulation. I could also use that formulation to tell you how to work out the numbers yourself if you want to do that next time on your own.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #161 on: February 11, 2006, 08:27:44 PM »
Rocky,

You have raised several good points in your last post. Maybe I can address them as follows:

Sifting the flour: As a practical matter, it isn't necessary to sift flour since it has already been sifted at the miller's facilities. However, if the flour has become compacted for some reason, I don't see any harm in sifting it so long as you use a scale to weigh the flour when you are done sifting. Otherwise, the weight of the flour is likely to be too low because of all the air that is incorporated into the flour by the sifting process. I am personally intrigued about the possibility of sifting flour just to see if the flour will hydrate better and absorb more water by starting out with sifted flour.

Knead time: The time that it takes to properly knead a dough depends mainly on the amount of dough you plan to make, and the mechanism chosen to knead the dough, whether it is by a machine (stand mixer, food processor, or bread machine) or by hand. King Arthur says that you shouldn't knead high-gluten flour doughs by hand. However, unless you plan to make an awful lot of dough at one time, I have found that it is possible to hand knead a high-gluten flour dough by hand, and especially if you also use an autolyse or other rest period. In fact, I did this with Canadave's NY dough over the holidays, and reported on the results at Reply #39 at the Canadave NY thread.

Rise time in the fridge:The length of time that a dough can be cold fermented in the refrigerator is essentially programmed into the dough by how you made the dough. There are many factors that govern the "shelf life" of a dough, but the two most important factors in my experience are the amount of yeast used and the finished dough temperature, that is, the temperature of the dough as it comes off the hook (or out of your hands) and goes into the refrigerator. If too much yeast is used, the dough will ferment more and faster and, unless other measures are taken, such as using cold water and/or adding a bit of sugar to the dough to continue to feed the yeast over the desired number of days, the shelf life of the dough can be foreshortened. Dough temperature is a function of the temperature of the flour, room temperature, heat from friction (of the machine used), and water temperature. The most controllable of these factors is the water temperature. If the water is too hot, that will have the same effect as using a lot of yeast and will accelerate the fermentation process and potentially foreshorten the shelf life of the dough. Using both a lot of yeast and warm water will turbocharge the dough the most and fastest and, all else being equal, will have the shortest shelf life.

Dough warm-up time: The time that it takes a cold fermented dough to warm up before shaping it into a skin is also a function of dough temperature. To avoid bubbling problems in the dough as it bakes, it is generally advisable that the dough reach above 55 degrees F before using. If a dough docker is to be used, and the dough is docked like crazy, you should be able to get away with a lower temperature. However, a dough docker in not a surefire cure. It might only reduce the bubbling. I usually take the dough temperature and use around 60-65 degrees F as a benchmark. The length of time that it will take a dough to reach that temperature is largely a function of room temperature. A dough will warm up in summer considerably faster than in winter. Once the dough gets to the proper temperature, it is good thereafter for a few more hours, so unless it is July or August in Arizona you shouldn't panic about whether the dough will expire on you. Some members, like Les, like to let their doughs warm up for 8 hours or even longer. For me, about 1 1/2-2 hours is about right, on average.

Cake yeast vs. ADY vs. IDY: Each of the three forms of yeast has it fans who will proclaim its superiority over the other forms. And with good reason. Each form has certain attributes that the other do not possess. However, according to tests performed by Tom Lehmann and others at the American Institute of Baking (AIB), the performance of the three forms of yeast is the same. They couldn't tell the difference from the finished products. The point to keep in mind is that when substituting one form for another, the amounts have to be adjusted. For example, when substituting ADY for cake yeast, one should use about half the amount of cake yeast by weight. When substituting IDY for cake yeast, one should use about one third the amount of cake yeast, again by weight. BTW, the reason that many pizza operators use the cake yeast is because in the quantities required by such operators the cake yeast is the cheapest of the three forms. Also, the cake yeast can be crumbled and added directly to the flour rather than proofing it in water, as is required when using ADY.

Screen vs. pan: The basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe is intended to be used with deck ovens or on screens in a conveyor oven. When the pizzas are to be baked in a deck oven, Tom Lehmann advocates using no sugar in the dough because it causes the bottom crust to brown too quickly--usually before the top of the pizza has finished baking. I tried using the Lehmann dough only once on a pan, when I was looking for an entry level Lehmann pizza using all-purpose flour. When the bottom crust didn't brown up sufficiently, I didn't pursue the matter further, even though I concluded that I could have used a lot of oil in the pan to "fry" the bottom crust. I could have also removed the pizza from the pan after the dough set to allow it to finish baking the rest of the time on a shelf of the oven.

Peter

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #162 on: February 12, 2006, 12:10:09 AM »

Rocky's Personal 16-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
 Flour (high-gluten or bread), 3 1/3 c
Water,   1 c.
Salt, 1 1/4 t.
ADY  1/2 t
olive oil 1 t.
sugar 1/4 t
Total Dough weight = 22.02 oz. (624 g.)

Im gonna try that petezaa, i think i will tweak it to like this though.  but at least im gettign the thickness factor/weight I want.  Thanks for the posts man!!!!!  I will report back tommorow.  I wish i had a digital camera so i could post some pics.  So far the dough is proofing nicely in the fridge, ill take it out tommorow.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #163 on: February 12, 2006, 09:22:59 AM »
Rocky,

Good luck with your pizza.

In case you are still interested in learning how to use the baker's percents to calculate ingredient quantities, you might take a look at Reply #8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1599.0.html. I'd forgotten that post but it is right on point as a mini-tutorial for learning how to use baker's percents when you have a known thickness factor and pizza size to work with.

Peter

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #164 on: February 12, 2006, 11:13:08 AM »
Thanks dude, hopefully I can get a scale, and then the madness will begin!! 

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #165 on: February 12, 2006, 11:34:43 AM »
Pete-zza,  what formula should I use If I want to make a party pizza? (Sheet pizza)  Could I use  W= (B x H) x F  ????

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #166 on: February 12, 2006, 12:05:47 PM »
Rocky,

That's right. It's surface area, so for a rectangle or square, it is as you stated.

Peter


Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #167 on: February 12, 2006, 05:43:46 PM »
Oh man, just got done eating my pizza, it was friggen awesome!  The dough turned out just how i wanted.  I topped it with margherita pepperoni, hot banana peppers, olives, and canned mushrooms. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #168 on: February 12, 2006, 05:49:46 PM »
Rocky,

How did it compare with what you get at work?

Peter

Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: N.Y. Style Dough, Sauce, and Technique
« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2006, 05:53:51 PM »
It was somewhat spicier, the dough was nice and chewy though and browned nicely.  The stuff at work is greasy though, I cant figure it out, i mean it is covered in grease, the top of the pizza and the bottom of the crust!! everywhere is like that, i can't figure it out, i mean i used a screen instead of a pan, so maybe thats it (along with pepperoni and whole milk mozz)  My pizza tasted like an elite NYC style pizza, except with more of a WNY style crust.  Im trying to shoot for a WNY street style pie.  Anyways i was happy with it, it was damn good.  Though my dough was chewier,  I want it to be more "wet" if that makes any sense.  I mean I could cheat and use all of the ingredients from work, but what fun would that be i eat their all the time, i know everything that goes in it, reverse engineering it isn't a problem.  I want to reverse engineer the other pizzeria's in the city.  I mean blasdell pizza has the best crust, carbone's has the best sauce, and lovejoy's has the best cheese.  Now if I could combine them all and make a super pizza, well then i would have something.  I guess im just trying to put wny style pizza on the map here.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2006, 05:58:10 PM by RockyMarciano »