Author Topic: Rising too fast in the fridge  (Read 6439 times)

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Offline November

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2006, 10:04:29 AM »
Peter,

You might want to check it out again for point #5.  If you just hit [Enter] or [Tab] the amounts will refresh.

1) Yes.  I'm still trying to decide how I'm going to handle that.  I know that most people use "stackable" measuring cups, so there's a basic shape symmetry that can be exploited for producing a relatively accurate algorithm.  With "stackable" cups, I would just ask the user to specify the size and depth of the largest cup.

2) Most flour is going to be the same regardless of protein content.  I will add all-purpose flour, but someone will have to provide me with three very accurate measurements of any other flours you want to see.  I'll explain more later.  I really wanted to add things like various salts, sucrose, honey, molasses, brown sugar, yeast, etc.  The tool will eventually deal with tablespoons and teaspoons when I add the reverse volume lookup.

3) I used the stir, scoop, and level practice, and I did it 6 times for each of the three data points (measuring cups) and took the average.  What I found out by examining the data outliers is that there is generally no more than a .0004735 %/g variance between two extremes in measurement.  That means you're 2.5 times less likely to be off using the tool (almost regardless of your measuring practice) than if you were to use inaccurate multiplication such as 30g x 4 per 1 cup measuring cup.  As I said earlier, this is to get people closer, and closer it will get them.

4) Yes.  I don't know when though.  Perhaps soon.  How it will be handled will be the same as mentioned in item #1 regarding the "stackable" cups.

6) Yes.  That's something I planned on anyway.  I was just waiting to see what kind of layout I would need to add any further suggestions.

- red.november


Offline November

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2006, 10:20:24 AM »
All,

If you want to contribute to the list of substances to choose from, here is what I need in terms of measurement to calculate the logarithm base and mass constant: at least 1 cup, 0.5 cup, 0.25 cup; all measured 5-10 times and averaged.  You can measure out more volumes if you want, but I need at least those three to find the logarithmic slope.  Please provide the size, depth, and content mass of each cup you use.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2006, 01:29:45 PM »
November,

I have different flours and can measure out and weigh the contents for the three cup sizes you mentioned. I can also give you the 1/3-cup size if you want. However, I do not have any Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour on hand, only the Caputo 00 Extra Blu, for which I can do the measuring. Maybe someone else with the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour can volunteer.

Will you need all of the actual measurements or only the average, for the three (or four) cup sizes? My measuring cups are "nestable" rather than "stackable", that is, they sit completely within each other. They are from Williams-Sonoma. My scale is a Soehnle Futura which, I believe, is accurate to within 1 gram. I plan to provide the number in grams for increased accuracy.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 04:42:57 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2006, 03:51:31 PM »
Peter,

Only the three cup sizes are necessary for "fitting" a logarithmic curve to the data.  If you want to provide measurements for more than those three, you're more than welcome.  I only need the average, but if you want me to analyze all the data just to be sure, go ahead and provide it.  Keep in mind that I am just finding the logarithmic slope that best represents the measurements that are taken.  Due to variances in empirical data, an idealized slope doesn't always match every data point.  When I said "stackable" I was referring to measuring cups that fit inside one another.  (e.g. http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=163253&ar=1 or http://cribcandy.com/kitchen/111d211cd80a2d3163c4d98261a2fa8e&pageoffset=25).  I've never heard of "stackable" used in a description for any other kind of measuring cup.

Providing the mass in grams is quite preferred.  Thanks.

- red.november

EDIT: The units are now switchable between metric and imperial, with imperial as the default.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 05:26:12 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2006, 07:18:20 PM »
November,

I measured three flours today using the 1-cup, 1/2-cup and 1/4-cup metal measuring cups (Williams-Sonoma brand with straight sides). The flours were the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) high gluten flour, Gold Medal all-purpose flour, and the Caputo 00 Extra Blu flour. I have some King Arthur bread flour but did not do any measurements with it. However, if you wish, I can do so.

As for the measuring cups themselves, as best as I could tell without recalibrating my eyeballs, the dimensions are as follows:

1-cup: 3 1/4" diameter (inside diameter), 1 3/4" deep (inside measurement)
1/2-cup: 2 11/16" (inside diameter), 1 1/4" deep (inside measurement)
1/4-cup: 2 1/16" (inside diameter), 1" deep (inside measurement)

For the flours, I took 10 measurements for each and averaged them. I double checked all the math. The results (averages) I got are as follows:

KASL
1-cup: 134.5 g.
1/2-cup: 67.5 g.
1/4-cup: 33.7 g.

Gold Metal All-purpose Flour
1-cup: 133.5 g.
1/2-cup: 66.9 g.
1/4-cup: 33.7 g.

Caputo 00 Extra Blu
1-cup: 141 g.
1/2-cup: 72 g.
1/4-cup: 36.5 g.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2006, 07:33:39 PM »
Peter,

I will see how your Gold Metal AP flour measurements compare to mine, since that's the brand of AP flour I have and that I added to the page earlier.  The bread flour on the page is also KA bread flour, so there's probably no need for you to measure it too.  I will add KASL and Caputo 00 Extra Blu as soon as possible (after I have slid a little pasta across my palette for the evening nutrient intake).

Thanks for the input.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2006, 08:01:33 PM »
Peter,

Something is not jiving with your measurements.  Besides the fact that your 1 cup of flour is less dense than your 1/4 cup of flour in every case; you state that your 1 cup measuring cup is essentially 14.5175941765 cubic inches.  1 cup = 13.839952602 cubic inches.

EDIT: There is apparently a larger problem here related to the precise measurement of a cup.  As you mentioned before, not all measuring cups are the same, but it's worse than just a little differences, because in order for this to work, we all have to agree on what standard to use: metric, US, Canadian, or fluid-volume conversion (which is what I use and my measuring cups measure).  Of course 3.341010156 ci * 4 != 14.5175941765, so even within your set of cups there is something fishy.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 08:15:57 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2006, 08:32:36 PM »
November,

I rechecked my numbers and what I gave you is what I got. When measuring out the flour I tried to do it as an ordinary person would do in the home. I cleaned the cups before each set of measurements with a given flour, tared the measuring cups, and I kept the scale surface clean but I otherwise just stirred, scooped and leveled, and noted the numbers. I did note, however, that the greatest variations in the numbers seemed to be with the 1-cup measuring cup. At the time, I wondered why this was so, but I was doing nothing different with the one-cup measuring cup than with the other measuring cups. Usually I spoon the flour into the cups rather than scooping before leveling but this time I followed the method you mentioned. I didn't shake or tamp the cups on a hard surface.

After your post, I looked at the measuring cups and saw that there were ml markings on them. For the 1-cup, it is 236 ml, for the 1/2-cup it is 118 ml, and for the 1/4-cup it is 59 ml. Clearly, the ratios are proportionate and correct. I used two measuring tapes to cornfirm my measurements of the cups themselves, trying to be diametrically accurate and not measuring the thickness of the metal itself, but maybe I wasn't close enough or accurate enough. I'm sure using the ml numbers should produce more accurate volumes, although I don't think that will account for the different densities.

Do you have any suggestions?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2006, 09:04:39 PM »
November,

LOL. Based on my experience on the forum I can assure you that there are quite a few people who use the measuring cups themselves to "scoop" flour out of the container. Some even shake and tamp the measuring cups and don't bother to level them. I didn't think about the scoop you had in mind especially since it is common to use the term even when using a spoon rather than the "scoop" you had in mind. See, for example, http://busycooks.about.com/library/archive/blmeasureflour.htm. The only scoop I have on hand is 1/4-cup. If that is acceptable for your purposes, I will redo the measurements tomorrow.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2006, 09:20:30 PM »
I checked with the King Arthur site and found this in the Baking Tips section:

A Better Measure

Because flour settles and compacts in storage, fluff it up before you measure. Then, gently sprinkle it into your measuring cup and scrape the excess off with the back of a knife. This will ensure a 4 ounce cup of flour rather than the 5 ounces you would have if you scooped it out with your cup.


Peter


Offline David

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2006, 10:28:06 PM »
Just to clarify,is this an additional Dough calculating device you're developing or something we're holding back for the North Koreans? ;)
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2006, 10:34:07 PM »
November,

My measuring cups are actually straight-sided, as shown below. I may have unintentionally misled you when I used the term nesting. I am accustomed to using the terms nesting and stacking with respect to pizza pans, especially deep-dish pans. For them to be nested or stacked, they have to be tapered somewhat. It’s just that the nested pans fit more closely within each other, as shown, for example, here: http://www.pizzatools.com/productdisplay.aspx?catid=53&c=Deep_Dish_Nesting_Heavy.

I am aware of the “flat” back of the knife issue but thanks for mentioning it anyway. I usually emphasize the “flat” feature because I, too, have noted that not all knives have flat back edges. The one I use does and I scrape at 90 degrees as you mentioned. An advantage of raining flour into the measuring cups is that very little of the flour is likely to attach itself to the outside of the cups, as can happen when using the measuring cups themselves as scoops.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2006, 10:47:20 PM »
David,

I guess you could call it another potentially useful tool. As you know, the Lehmann dough calculating tool gives weights for flour but not volumes, because of the difficulties in converting weights into volumes. November believes that he has a way of doing this with sufficient accuracy as to warrant its creation, and I have every confidence that he will be able to do it.

I have been working with Boy Hits Car on other dough calculating tools based on using Flash. We've discovered that the program challenges can be quite daunting. So it will take time to get them up and running and tested. As I see it, November's tool should be complementary. I've been fortunate to work with two very talented individuals.

Peter

Offline David

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2006, 10:55:41 PM »
I can see that Peter and I'm glad it's you and not me.(luckily for them!)You guys are taking things to a whole different level and then providing all of us un-technical pizzaholics with unique user friendly tools.Well done.I'm sure your work will be plagiarized for years to come.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2006, 11:16:39 AM »
November,

I re-did the measurements using a scoop to distribute the flour into the measuring cups. From time to time, on a random basis, I also tried using an ordinary tablespoon, such as I usually use when converting weights of flour to volumes. I found no noticeable differences in the readings. Since everyone has a tablespoon, I would think that that should do for most people.

I also used the double-horizon method to recheck the depths of the measuring cups. The only difference was for the 1/2-cup size, where the new depth measurement is 1 3/16".

On of the interesting observations today was how much additional flour ends up in a measuring cup when using the cup itself to dip into the container of flour, as I did in my last round of measurements. The differences percentage-wise are quite substantial.

Here is the latest set of data:

KASL
1-cup: 122.4 g.
1/2-cup: 61.1 g.
1/4-cup: 30.1 g.

Gold Metal All-purpose Flour
1-cup: 123.1 g.
1/2-cup: 61.3 g.
1/4-cup: 29.5 g.

Caputo 00 Extra Blu
1-cup: 133.5 g.
1/2-cup: 65.8 g.
1/4-cup: 32.9 g.

As you will note, it still looks like there is a compaction issue, or else something may be out of order with my measuring cups. I used the same technique for all the measurements.

Peter

Offline Kidder

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2006, 01:07:22 PM »
What has become of my topic?!? You guys have way too much time your hands but what you're doing can be useful to those who want to meet an exact percentage. I know what dough is supposed to feel like so that's all that matters I think. Good work though.

I made up some nice dough last night that I'll be trying out tonight or tomorrow, depending on how much they've risen by tonight. This time I added 2 teaspoons kosher salt and a little over a teaspoon IDY. I started out with 1 cup water and 2.25 cups bread flour, gradually working the flour in. I came so close to adding my sourdough starter but I decided not to. I don't know the behavior of it yet and I want pizza tonight.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2006, 01:18:45 PM »
Kidder,

Sorry about that. Once November opens a new thread with the new tool, with his and David's permission I can delete a lot of the intervening posts.

Peter


Offline November

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2006, 04:10:15 AM »
Peter,

The results of fitting your data to an ideal curve are interesting.  It was difficult to fit your KASL measurements to a logarithmic scale of any kind, but what you see is the best fit possible.  Your Caputo 00 Extra Blu on the other hand, wow!  I've never seen a better fit.  It's like you took absolutely flawless measurements.  That set of data is definitely a keeper.  More features and a separate thread coming soon.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2006, 08:18:09 AM »
November,

This morning I ran another set of data on the KASL to give you a few more data points. This time the ten samples averaged 122.5 for the one-cup size, 60.7 for the 1/2-cup size, and 30.3 for the 1/4-cup size.

As I was running the tests I could see that the Caputo 00 flour handled better than the KASL. The Caputo flour is a very fine flour and it creates a smoother surface during leveling. The KASL tends to be a bit on the "clumpy" side with a tendency of the flour to stick to itself and form a slightly less smooth surface during leveling.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: Rising too fast in the fridge
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2006, 01:57:58 PM »
Peter,

Good job on the remeasuring.  That was nearly as flawless as the 00 flour.

- red.november