First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result

[pizzanapoletana]

CanuckJim

Italian fork mixer are a bit different from the french version: Italians are slower and have a mechanised bowl.

Also Italian mixer are available in relativly small size, from 17kg capacity all the way up 200kg+

Ciao

[CanuckJim]

I'm aware of the Italian fork mixers, but, at 17kg, I simply don't have the space for one.  Even so, could you guide me toward a link for them.  I'd appreciate that.  The SP 5 also has a mechanized bowl, and it's made in Italy.

Cheers,
Jim

[pizzanapoletana]

I would say that the 17kg is the smallest commercial mixer that is worth considering.

At Forno Napoletano we aslo sell them from the best Italian producer

www.forno-napoletano.it

[CanuckJim]

Thanks for the link.  Went to the site, but it's under construction.  However, I did send an email to the .it address requesting information.

Jim

[scott r]

Arthur and all,

At the risk of my virtual life, I'd like to ask an additional question about kneading times with Caputo flour.  I'm a bread baker, really, with an Alan Scott design 3'x4' oven; mostly wild yeast hearth breads.  It's only recently that I've gotten into the pizza end of things, and I'm quite aware that a Scott oven is not the ideal shape for pizza.  Anyway, I use an Esmach SP5 mixer that will handle 8 pounds of flour at a time.  Many of my bread dough formulas specify quite clearly that the fully kneaded dough (in the mixer, not on the bench) should have an internal temp of between 77 & 81 F.  Normally, and following Jeffrey Hamelmann's advice on water and flour temps, that means I mix my doughs for about 4-5 minutes, let rest 20, mix 4-5.  Otherwise, the dough overheats.  My question is: with a mix time of 20 minutes, doesn't the dough overheat?  Or is Caputo flour more tolerant of this?

As a sidelight, I've been experimenting with pizzas made using Peter Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne formula with some success, but this is a cold mix, cold rise dough, with a very high hydration level.

Jim

I just want to clarify that I am not really reccomending a definitive mix time.  There are just too many factors involved in a mix to pinpoint an actual mix time.  Even with the same mixer I tend to mix at different lengths depending on how fast I have been adding my flour etc.  My main point of this post was just to say that from what I have been reading here on the forum I feel like the majority of our members are undermixing their doughs, and I know I was certainly guilty of that.  Yes we are making smaller batches, but also you have to factor in that our mixers are not as efficient as the ones used in commercial bakeries or pizzerias.  I see mix times for Caputo recommended at 15-30 minutes for commercial mixers, but many of our home bakers are doing more like 8-10 by the time you subtract all the time for rest periods.  I think this is not enough to fully develop this flour.

With a 20 minute mix in my electrolux  DLX the temp only goes up 5-8 degrees, but I always temperature adjust my water before mixing to keep my outcome consistent.  Since the DLX can't handle a Caputo dough below 66 or so % my entire mix is done with a fairly wet dough which tends to keep the temp from going crazy.  I then hand knead my last few percent of flour in there, and that doesn't really raise the temp much at all.

[Arthur]

Jim,

Hi! I recognize you from the fornobravo forum.   All I can say is that I was one of those people scott mentioned that probably under-kneaded their dough.  I do remember that my dough was about 75 degrees after 20 minutes of mixing with my dough hook with a KA at slowest speed.

Arthur.

Arthur and all,

At the risk of my virtual life, I'd like to ask an additional question about kneading times with Caputo flour.  I'm a bread baker, really, with an Alan Scott design 3'x4' oven; mostly wild yeast hearth breads.  It's only recently that I've gotten into the pizza end of things, and I'm quite aware that a Scott oven is not the ideal shape for pizza.  Anyway, I use an Esmach SP5 mixer that will handle 8 pounds of flour at a time.  Many of my bread dough formulas specify quite clearly that the fully kneaded dough (in the mixer, not on the bench) should have an internal temp of between 77 & 81 F.  Normally, and following Jeffrey Hamelmann's advice on water and flour temps, that means I mix my doughs for about 4-5 minutes, let rest 20, mix 4-5.  Otherwise, the dough overheats.  My question is: with a mix time of 20 minutes, doesn't the dough overheat?  Or is Caputo flour more tolerant of this?

As a sidelight, I've been experimenting with pizzas made using Peter Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne formula with some success, but this is a cold mix, cold rise dough, with a very high hydration level.

Jim

[Arthur]

The testing continues...

last night I took my best dough recipe from last week and made it again against a hand kneaded version of the same recipe.  I find that the best way to get my recipe better is to make the "best" from the previous week against alternatives and have the guests (and me of course) decide on the baseline for the next week. 

I have your basic KA mixer.   I won't be eating the pizza until this weekend but here are a few observations so far:

- my hand kneaded dough clearly produced a better dough - that smooth, elastic feel of dough.  I wonder if this is what people are talking about with their DLX or professional mixers.   I suppose my KA dough hook is just not doing a great job.
- I don't know how it will taste but after my 12 hour rise with each, the hand kneaded dough was still "firm" and had great consistency vs. the KA mixed dough which was a little lose (note: both had the same hydration).

One problem I had - which I'm sure others have run into - how do I avoid the "skin" on my dough after a 12 hour rise?  I have my dough rising in a bowl with a hand towel over it in the coolest area of my house (maybe 68 degrees or so).   The skin is minor but I would like to avoid it altogether.  Any suggestions?

Arthur.

[scott r]

arthur, if the skin is minor I consider it to be a good thing.   I think it is actually beneficial to the dough to let it "air out" a little.  Also, when you make your pizza put the skin side down and you will get a crispier crust on the bottom.

Of course you could just seal the dough balls in individual plastic containers with a lid if you want to keep the whole ball moist.



Question for November, Marco, DNA dan, or any of the other more scientific minded folk out there.  Obviously lots of gasses are formed in the fermentation process.  Is it possible that these trapped gasses (sealed in a container) provide a less than optimal atmosphere for the dough and the health of the yeast?  I know yeast thrives on oxygen, so it makes sense to me that like a fire, it is healthier for the dough to have full access to as much atmospheric oxygen as possible.

I know that the wooden dough proofing boxes are preferred because they absorb some of the moisture from the dough, but I wonder if there is more to it than that.

[David]

This brings me to thinking about how much we expose our starter to the air ,once it is activated?If the starter is established isn't it strong enough to withstand being overtaken by any local yeast?Some advise incorporating a lot of air during feeding,and others say to avoid exposure and keep covered?I have since changed my storage to a much bigger,comparative to starter volume ,container.I keep it covered,but the container offers more trapped air and room to breathe.Any thoughts......
                                                                      David

[Bill/SFNM]

David,

I think you undersestimate the ability of your starter to dominate over invaders. Remember, your starter contains a gagillion of the desired microorganisms. An invader with a much smaller army would have to be extremely powerful to overcome the established culture which is orders of magnitude stronger.

Bill/SFNM

[Arthur]

arthur, if the skin is minor I consider it to be a good thing.   I think it is actually beneficial to the dough to let it "air out" a little.  Also, when you make your pizza put the skin side down and you will get a crispier crust on the bottom.

Scott,

After I let it rise for 12 hours I need to punch down the dough to form dough balls so the skin is just incorporated back into the dough.   I guess I can make the dough balls first, then warm rise, then fridge without a punch down?

[scott r]

Arthur, there are three ways that I have had success fermenting.

1. Room temp rise-  After mixing I let the dough rise in bulk for 12 hours, hopefully using the right amount of yeast to let it come close to or double (with commercial yeast) or just rise a little bit (with a starter).  I then form dough balls and use them when the dough has doubled again (commercial yeast) or not quite doubled (with a starter).

2. Fridge rise- After mixing I let the dough rise for maybe an hour, then make dough balls and put them into the fridge for at least 2 days maybe much more depending on how much yeast I have used.  I do not reccomend doing this method with only a starter.

3.  Room temp then fridge rise- I let the dough rise in bulk just like step 1, but after the initial 12 hour rise in bulk I form balls and put them right into the fridge.  If the dough has been in the fridge for a day I let it sit at room temp until it rises close to the amount I mentioned in step 1.   As the days go on I give the balls less and less rise at room temp once I have pulled them from the fridge proportionate to how long the dough has been in there.   If the dough has been in for four days I use it an hour or two after it has come out of the fidge.  This method works well with a starter or with commercial yeast.


It is tricky with fridge rising, because it is possible for the dough to not grow at all, but it has fermented too much (will be slack and not bake well).  So you have to learn how to tell when a fridge rise dough has gone too far.  On the other end of the spectrum it is easy to use a dough that has not fermented enough with a fridge rise and you will end up with a flavorless dough and a compromised texture.  I actually think it is easier to do method 1 because you have that visual clue to tell you when the dough has risen enough.  I hesitate to give you concrete times for fridge rise because not only the amount of yeast, but also the temperature of the fridge will determine how far the dough has gone.

[scpizza]

Question for November, Marco, DNA dan, or any of the other more scientific minded folk out there.  Obviously lots of gasses are formed in the fermentation process.  Is it possible that these trapped gasses (sealed in a container) provide a less than optimal atmosphere for the dough and the health of the yeast?  I know yeast thrives on oxygen, so it makes sense to me that like a fire, it is healthier for the dough to have full access to as much atmospheric oxygen as possible.

This is an excellent question I've been pondering as well.  To my way of thinking. anaerobic vs aeorobic fermentation should produce very different by-products and thus taste.  One would seem to need to manage oxygen exposure as well as temperature, etc.  I was told this was the real reason behind the need for a punchdown and shaping of balls midway through the rise - to distribute oxygen through the dough - and without it the flavor would suffer.

[pizzanapoletana]

Yeast:

Multiply in presence of oxygen

Ferment in absence of Oxygen

[Arthur]

My guests just left.

I made 6 pies -

1) two pies using best recipe from last week which included my KA mixer, warm rise then fridge until a few hours before use
2) two pies using same as #1 but hand kneaded
3) two pies using same as #2 but only warm rise for 18 hours.

All pies were made in my wood oven at the highest temp I had tried - which was about 850-900 by the coals.
This turned out to be a 1:30 - 2:00 minute pizza.   This high temp produced the best pizza I have made.

After all of the different procedures used and the careful determination of the different processes, the pizza tasted very similar.  I honestly don't believe that the different methods I used to prepare the dough made much difference.   For all of these I used IDY which may be related to the lack of differences.  I will be attempting to activate (and then use) the starter I received last week.   We'll see if that produces different results in the dough - I assume the taste will be different.

Here's a couple of pictures from one of the last pies.

Arthur.

[Arthur]

What are some other traditional Neapolitan recipes? 

I see marinara here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2186.msg19628.html#msg19628

What are the toppings/quantities?

[Arthur]

I've had lots of excellent help by scott, Peter and CanuckJim trying to help me with this issue but I'm still scratching my head.  They have been very patient with me but I'm still stuck - and very determined.

I'm trying to get my pizza crust to look more like this:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8580.html#msg8580

instead of this
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg11023.html#msg11023  (see crust picture - sorry pftaylor, but my crust is pretty dense like this)

I've narrowed it down to a few possibilities:
1) I pretty much always flatten the rim during shaping/building which I have heard different opinions on.  I have seen videos like this
http://wwwlapizza.altervista.org/cirogallo/CIMG0011.AVI  (NOTE: You may not be able to click on this link and get a video - you might need to copy and paste link into browser)
which (sort of) shows the rim does NOT get touched. 

2) yeast - my IDY yeast is new - SAF Red Star. I know there is a gold version, starters, cake yeast, etc.  My dough does rise (double) so I don't think it's the yeast, but???

3) hydration - I've read a ton of things in the forum on hydration.  I am using Caputo and many suggest 60%-63%.  I have tried 60%, 63%, etc. - no difference, unless it should be higher (which I can't really see with using Caputo).

4) My overhandling of the dough.  After a 12 hour rise I form dough balls.  In order to do so I must re-form into smaller balls so I have already punched down the dough.  Whether I use a fridge rise after or not I get the same result.  I typically pull the dough out of my plastic container and start the dough shaping (admittedly I do not use the same technique as the video above, but that's my next attempt).

5) oven - I am a new user of my wood oven but I will tell you that my pies take 2 minutes approx and the oven is 750-850 by the coals.

6) mixer - I have a KA mixer and I tend to mix 2 pounds of flour at a time.  Is this too little?  I knead for 15 minutes and as I've said my dough does rise over night.

Input on my quest is appreciated.

Arthur.

[Bill/SFNM]

Arthur,

I use different conditions than you, but I NEVER flatten the rim.

[widespreadpizza]

And I thought my wife and i were strange or something for pulling the "pizza with summer corn menu out"!  Guess were not alone.  Happened more than a few times this summer!

On the question at hand though, I think a starter will keep the crust more white and mottled, like you are looking for,  but I dont have my wood oven yet.  I know my biggest problem with caputo in the home oven with a starter is getting any browning at all, as is others I think, right pete-zza.  -marc

[fabio]

I've had lots of excellent help by scott, Peter and CanuckJim trying to help me with this issue but I'm still scratching my head.  They have been very patient with me but I'm still stuck - and very determined.

I'm trying to get my pizza crust to look more like this:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8580.html#msg8580

instead of this
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg11023.html#msg11023  (see crust picture - sorry pftaylor, but my crust is pretty dense like this)

I've narrowed it down to a few possibilities: . . .

Hi Arthur,

I'm a newbie at this, so read my advice with that in mind. I get the kind of crust that you are looking for (I think?) by using a sourdough starter (the camaldoli italian from sourdo.com). I find that it makes all the difference in not only taste (obvious) but also in chewiness, heat resistance, elasticity, and the irregular artisan-bread-style holes you want. I also think you can get away with longer, refrigerated rise times using a sourdough starter (and therefore more flavorful) as it acts as a natural preservative.

Take a look at these photos of a couple of my pies to see if my result is what you are looking for . . .

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4034.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4054.0.html

That said, there are probably quite a few things you can tweak to get the result you are after without using a starter. I'll leave that to the more experienced members.