Author Topic: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result  (Read 22276 times)

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Offline scpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2006, 04:56:05 PM »
I'd suggest getting the oven up to around 900F on the floor.   My measurement of UPN's wood burning oven showed a gradient between 800F at the farthest point of the floor to 1000F right beside the coals.

In a home oven I recently cooked pizza at 850F-900F for 1:30 (Caputo flour, 20 minute knead, 62% hydration, natural yeast) and produced a profoundly lighter crust than I ever did at 750F.


Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2006, 02:01:59 PM »
thnaks for the response arthur, I like to know what im getting into.  Keep us posted on your results as you go along ,  so i can convice the wife its worth it.  -marc

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2006, 07:07:51 PM »
Well I made a few (three different) batches on Thursday night and ate them last night.   I realized that I wasn't really looking for such an airy result - which I did get with one the batches.  That one batch was airy and doughy, but not as tasty.  I really was just looking for a less dense dough but not necessary filled with lots of air pockets.

The best results I had were with my warm rise.  I did a warm rise overnight (probably 8 hours) and then (made dough balls and) put the dough into the refridgerator up to 2 hours before I baked the pizza.  With the warm rise I used a very small amount of yeast.

I also did a 20 minute mix rather than a 10 minute mix.  That certainly had a different (and I would say better) impact.

The key things that made an impact on the quality of my best dough for the night were:
- I bought a new bag of SAF IDY yeast (didn't hurt)
- mixed 20 minutes instead of 10.  For the most of that 20 minutes the dough is "twirling" on its end such that the dough is wet enough to be twirling and not pounding against the sides or stuck on the dough hook.
- warm rise
- higher oven temp - approx. 850 on the floor near the coals.

I would have to say the most important of these might have been the oven temp.  Getting the pizza to bake in 2-2 1/2 minutes in a hotter oven - along with my new warm rise recipe produces a crust that was crunchy on the outside, soft on the inside and very tasty.  My best yet, but I'm still learning.   I'm going to stick with the warm rise dough recipe as my new standard and move towards a starter - which I ordered last week from sourdo.com

I'm also getting better with my oven.  Although it would seem obvious that adding more wood gets the oven hotter, for some reason when you have a wood oven you tend not to want to overload the oven with too much wood.  I got my oven up to the 850 floor temp after a while by adding more wood at the right time.  Still learning in this area since some of the same pies where not baked in such a hot oven and they just didn't come out as well.

Sorry no pictures this time.  I'll take some next time.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 07:50:07 PM by Arthur »

Offline CanuckJim

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2006, 07:44:03 AM »
Arthur and all,

At the risk of my virtual life, I'd like to ask an additional question about kneading times with Caputo flour.  I'm a bread baker, really, with an Alan Scott design 3'x4' oven; mostly wild yeast hearth breads.  It's only recently that I've gotten into the pizza end of things, and I'm quite aware that a Scott oven is not the ideal shape for pizza.  Anyway, I use an Esmach SP5 mixer that will handle 8 pounds of flour at a time.  Many of my bread dough formulas specify quite clearly that the fully kneaded dough (in the mixer, not on the bench) should have an internal temp of between 77 & 81 F.  Normally, and following Jeffrey Hamelmann's advice on water and flour temps, that means I mix my doughs for about 4-5 minutes, let rest 20, mix 4-5.  Otherwise, the dough overheats.  My question is: with a mix time of 20 minutes, doesn't the dough overheat?  Or is Caputo flour more tolerant of this?

As a sidelight, I've been experimenting with pizzas made using Peter Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne formula with some success, but this is a cold mix, cold rise dough, with a very high hydration level.

Jim
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2006, 08:09:26 AM »
Jim,

I'm not familiar with the mixer you have, but with my mixer (Santos fork mixer), the dough is kneaded relatively slowly. I can knead highly hydrated doughs for over 40 minutes (although I never knead pizza dough nearly that long) and the temperature barely rises.

Bill/SFNM
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2006, 08:22:51 AM »
Jim,

The recitation of total knead time (in this case, 20 minutes) doesn't mean much without knowing the type of mixer used, the size of the mixer bowl, the mixer speed(s) used, the dough batch size, hydration, etc.

Also, with 00 flour, you will sometimes see instructions for kneading 00 doughs for fairly long times, on the assumption that the long knead times are needed to fully develop the lower levels of gluten in that flour. However, often those instructions are based on practices used in Italy where the machines used are different than the machines most commonly used in the U.S., such as commercial Hobarts. I am not familiar with your particular mixer, but I suspect that you would have to adapt your mix speeds and times to accommodate a 00 dough to properly develop the gluten while not overheating the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 08:26:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline CanuckJim

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2006, 08:32:35 AM »
Bill, Peter,

Thanks for the good clarification.  Esmach is a European company that makes large scale bakery equipment all over the EU.  The SP5, made in Italy, is the smallest mixer they offer.  It's a spiral mixer with a dough hook, and I've found it's nowhere near as likely to overheat dough as the KA 600 I used to own before it self destructed.

Mine is a start-up microbakery, so I'm not in the league for a fork mixer, though I'd love to have one.

If anybody's interested, I could forward info on the SP5.  It's a good piece of gear.

Seems like I should simply adapt my bread dough procedures to Caputo and start experimenting.

Great forum.  Thanks.

Jim
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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2006, 08:43:36 AM »
Jim,

As a follow-up to my recent post, you might find this one of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13791.html#msg13791 (Reply 162). You should also note pizzanapoletana's (Marco) comments in Reply 164 (and mine at Reply 165).

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2006, 08:56:33 AM »
I would say that the spiral mixer is the second worst mixer for neapolitan dough straight after the planetary one. It does overheat and "harden" the dough too much.

Ciao


Offline CanuckJim

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2006, 09:07:28 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for the guidance.  All of it seems quite logical and dependant on experience and experimentation.  I'll follow along.

Regarding the spiral mixer; well, perhaps.  The SP5 is light years ahead of the KA, that's a certainty.  I haven't found that my bread doughs have suffered from it, though I'm very careful about knead times, temperatures, and I always finish-knead my doughs on the bench to achieve a well developed window pane test for gluten structure.  Still, this might be an issue with Caputo and pizza dough.  Don't know yet.

Had I the resources and the space, I would certainly opt for a fork mixer.  Right now, I've got neither.

Jim
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2006, 09:23:42 AM »
CanuckJim

Italian fork mixer are a bit different from the french version: Italians are slower and have a mechanised bowl.

Also Italian mixer are available in relativly small size, from 17kg capacity all the way up 200kg+

Ciao

Offline CanuckJim

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2006, 09:26:04 AM »
I'm aware of the Italian fork mixers, but, at 17kg, I simply don't have the space for one.  Even so, could you guide me toward a link for them.  I'd appreciate that.  The SP 5 also has a mechanized bowl, and it's made in Italy.

Cheers,
Jim
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2006, 12:08:03 PM »
I would say that the 17kg is the smallest commercial mixer that is worth considering.

At Forno Napoletano we aslo sell them from the best Italian producer

www.forno-napoletano.it

Offline CanuckJim

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2006, 12:43:51 PM »
Thanks for the link.  Went to the site, but it's under construction.  However, I did send an email to the .it address requesting information.

Jim
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Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2006, 01:13:38 PM »
Arthur and all,

At the risk of my virtual life, I'd like to ask an additional question about kneading times with Caputo flour.  I'm a bread baker, really, with an Alan Scott design 3'x4' oven; mostly wild yeast hearth breads.  It's only recently that I've gotten into the pizza end of things, and I'm quite aware that a Scott oven is not the ideal shape for pizza.  Anyway, I use an Esmach SP5 mixer that will handle 8 pounds of flour at a time.  Many of my bread dough formulas specify quite clearly that the fully kneaded dough (in the mixer, not on the bench) should have an internal temp of between 77 & 81 F.  Normally, and following Jeffrey Hamelmann's advice on water and flour temps, that means I mix my doughs for about 4-5 minutes, let rest 20, mix 4-5.  Otherwise, the dough overheats.  My question is: with a mix time of 20 minutes, doesn't the dough overheat?  Or is Caputo flour more tolerant of this?

As a sidelight, I've been experimenting with pizzas made using Peter Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne formula with some success, but this is a cold mix, cold rise dough, with a very high hydration level.

Jim

I just want to clarify that I am not really reccomending a definitive mix time.  There are just too many factors involved in a mix to pinpoint an actual mix time.  Even with the same mixer I tend to mix at different lengths depending on how fast I have been adding my flour etc.  My main point of this post was just to say that from what I have been reading here on the forum I feel like the majority of our members are undermixing their doughs, and I know I was certainly guilty of that.  Yes we are making smaller batches, but also you have to factor in that our mixers are not as efficient as the ones used in commercial bakeries or pizzerias.  I see mix times for Caputo recommended at 15-30 minutes for commercial mixers, but many of our home bakers are doing more like 8-10 by the time you subtract all the time for rest periods.  I think this is not enough to fully develop this flour.

With a 20 minute mix in my electrolux  DLX the temp only goes up 5-8 degrees, but I always temperature adjust my water before mixing to keep my outcome consistent.  Since the DLX can't handle a Caputo dough below 66 or so % my entire mix is done with a fairly wet dough which tends to keep the temp from going crazy.  I then hand knead my last few percent of flour in there, and that doesn't really raise the temp much at all.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 01:18:24 PM by scott r »

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2006, 02:11:30 PM »
Jim,

Hi! I recognize you from the fornobravo forum.   All I can say is that I was one of those people scott mentioned that probably under-kneaded their dough.  I do remember that my dough was about 75 degrees after 20 minutes of mixing with my dough hook with a KA at slowest speed.

Arthur.

Arthur and all,

At the risk of my virtual life, I'd like to ask an additional question about kneading times with Caputo flour.  I'm a bread baker, really, with an Alan Scott design 3'x4' oven; mostly wild yeast hearth breads.  It's only recently that I've gotten into the pizza end of things, and I'm quite aware that a Scott oven is not the ideal shape for pizza.  Anyway, I use an Esmach SP5 mixer that will handle 8 pounds of flour at a time.  Many of my bread dough formulas specify quite clearly that the fully kneaded dough (in the mixer, not on the bench) should have an internal temp of between 77 & 81 F.  Normally, and following Jeffrey Hamelmann's advice on water and flour temps, that means I mix my doughs for about 4-5 minutes, let rest 20, mix 4-5.  Otherwise, the dough overheats.  My question is: with a mix time of 20 minutes, doesn't the dough overheat?  Or is Caputo flour more tolerant of this?

As a sidelight, I've been experimenting with pizzas made using Peter Reinhart's pain a l'ancienne formula with some success, but this is a cold mix, cold rise dough, with a very high hydration level.

Jim

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2006, 09:20:57 AM »
The testing continues...

last night I took my best dough recipe from last week and made it again against a hand kneaded version of the same recipe.  I find that the best way to get my recipe better is to make the "best" from the previous week against alternatives and have the guests (and me of course) decide on the baseline for the next week. 

I have your basic KA mixer.   I won't be eating the pizza until this weekend but here are a few observations so far:

- my hand kneaded dough clearly produced a better dough - that smooth, elastic feel of dough.  I wonder if this is what people are talking about with their DLX or professional mixers.   I suppose my KA dough hook is just not doing a great job.
- I don't know how it will taste but after my 12 hour rise with each, the hand kneaded dough was still "firm" and had great consistency vs. the KA mixed dough which was a little lose (note: both had the same hydration).

One problem I had - which I'm sure others have run into - how do I avoid the "skin" on my dough after a 12 hour rise?  I have my dough rising in a bowl with a hand towel over it in the coolest area of my house (maybe 68 degrees or so).   The skin is minor but I would like to avoid it altogether.  Any suggestions?

Arthur.


Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2006, 12:30:38 PM »
arthur, if the skin is minor I consider it to be a good thing.   I think it is actually beneficial to the dough to let it "air out" a little.  Also, when you make your pizza put the skin side down and you will get a crispier crust on the bottom.

Of course you could just seal the dough balls in individual plastic containers with a lid if you want to keep the whole ball moist.



Question for November, Marco, DNA dan, or any of the other more scientific minded folk out there.  Obviously lots of gasses are formed in the fermentation process.  Is it possible that these trapped gasses (sealed in a container) provide a less than optimal atmosphere for the dough and the health of the yeast?  I know yeast thrives on oxygen, so it makes sense to me that like a fire, it is healthier for the dough to have full access to as much atmospheric oxygen as possible.

I know that the wooden dough proofing boxes are preferred because they absorb some of the moisture from the dough, but I wonder if there is more to it than that.

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #68 on: October 27, 2006, 12:51:23 PM »
This brings me to thinking about how much we expose our starter to the air ,once it is activated?If the starter is established isn't it strong enough to withstand being overtaken by any local yeast?Some advise incorporating a lot of air during feeding,and others say to avoid exposure and keep covered?I have since changed my storage to a much bigger,comparative to starter volume ,container.I keep it covered,but the container offers more trapped air and room to breathe.Any thoughts......
                                                                      David
« Last Edit: October 27, 2006, 01:10:28 PM by David »
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #69 on: October 27, 2006, 01:00:47 PM »
David,

I think you undersestimate the ability of your starter to dominate over invaders. Remember, your starter contains a gagillion of the desired microorganisms. An invader with a much smaller army would have to be extremely powerful to overcome the established culture which is orders of magnitude stronger.

Bill/SFNM
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Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #70 on: October 27, 2006, 04:01:08 PM »
arthur, if the skin is minor I consider it to be a good thing.   I think it is actually beneficial to the dough to let it "air out" a little.  Also, when you make your pizza put the skin side down and you will get a crispier crust on the bottom.

Scott,

After I let it rise for 12 hours I need to punch down the dough to form dough balls so the skin is just incorporated back into the dough.   I guess I can make the dough balls first, then warm rise, then fridge without a punch down????

Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #71 on: October 27, 2006, 06:49:15 PM »
Arthur, there are three ways that I have had success fermenting.

1. Room temp rise-  After mixing I let the dough rise in bulk for 12 hours, hopefully using the right amount of yeast to let it come close to or double (with commercial yeast) or just rise a little bit (with a starter).  I then form dough balls and use them when the dough has doubled again (commercial yeast) or not quite doubled (with a starter).

2. Fridge rise- After mixing I let the dough rise for maybe an hour, then make dough balls and put them into the fridge for at least 2 days maybe much more depending on how much yeast I have used.  I do not reccomend doing this method with only a starter.

3.  Room temp then fridge rise- I let the dough rise in bulk just like step 1, but after the initial 12 hour rise in bulk I form balls and put them right into the fridge.  If the dough has been in the fridge for a day I let it sit at room temp until it rises close to the amount I mentioned in step 1.   As the days go on I give the balls less and less rise at room temp once I have pulled them from the fridge proportionate to how long the dough has been in there.   If the dough has been in for four days I use it an hour or two after it has come out of the fidge.  This method works well with a starter or with commercial yeast.


It is tricky with fridge rising, because it is possible for the dough to not grow at all, but it has fermented too much (will be slack and not bake well).  So you have to learn how to tell when a fridge rise dough has gone too far.  On the other end of the spectrum it is easy to use a dough that has not fermented enough with a fridge rise and you will end up with a flavorless dough and a compromised texture.  I actually think it is easier to do method 1 because you have that visual clue to tell you when the dough has risen enough.  I hesitate to give you concrete times for fridge rise because not only the amount of yeast, but also the temperature of the fridge will determine how far the dough has gone.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2006, 06:51:04 PM by scott r »

Offline scpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2006, 08:59:14 AM »
Question for November, Marco, DNA dan, or any of the other more scientific minded folk out there.  Obviously lots of gasses are formed in the fermentation process.  Is it possible that these trapped gasses (sealed in a container) provide a less than optimal atmosphere for the dough and the health of the yeast?  I know yeast thrives on oxygen, so it makes sense to me that like a fire, it is healthier for the dough to have full access to as much atmospheric oxygen as possible.

This is an excellent question I've been pondering as well.  To my way of thinking. anaerobic vs aeorobic fermentation should produce very different by-products and thus taste.  One would seem to need to manage oxygen exposure as well as temperature, etc.  I was told this was the real reason behind the need for a punchdown and shaping of balls midway through the rise - to distribute oxygen through the dough - and without it the flavor would suffer.

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2006, 09:31:12 AM »
Yeast:

Multiply in presence of oxygen

Ferment in absence of Oxygen


Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2006, 07:34:53 PM »
My guests just left.

I made 6 pies -

1) two pies using best recipe from last week which included my KA mixer, warm rise then fridge until a few hours before use
2) two pies using same as #1 but hand kneaded
3) two pies using same as #2 but only warm rise for 18 hours.

All pies were made in my wood oven at the highest temp I had tried - which was about 850-900 by the coals.
This turned out to be a 1:30 - 2:00 minute pizza.   This high temp produced the best pizza I have made.

After all of the different procedures used and the careful determination of the different processes, the pizza tasted very similar.  I honestly don't believe that the different methods I used to prepare the dough made much difference.   For all of these I used IDY which may be related to the lack of differences.  I will be attempting to activate (and then use) the starter I received last week.   We'll see if that produces different results in the dough - I assume the taste will be different.

Here's a couple of pictures from one of the last pies.

Arthur.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2006, 08:16:36 PM by Arthur »


 

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