Author Topic: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result  (Read 21476 times)

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Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2006, 09:21:52 AM »
Fabio,

Yes - those pics look really good!   I need to switch to using a starter and will do so in the next few weeks. 


Last night I made 8 pounds of dough by hand!   I just needed a break from my mixer.   It was very difficult to to knead such a large amount especially since I used a high hydration.  As it turned out I had lots of rest periods and very little kneading.    After a 12 hour bulk rise the large dough ball more than doubled (probably tripled) in 12 hours so I'm not sure how these will taste/look when baked.   Right now they are in the fridge until this weekend.



Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2006, 07:40:08 PM »
I remember reading on the site that you really can't cut down the proportions and come out with the same result.  I think I might have proven that in some way.

Typically I make 2 pounds of dough and with this 8 pounder the dough did rise more (faster) and even did some rising in the fridge.  I used the same proportions.   I don't know the science behind this, but maybe someone else does.

For the sake of full disclosure I also did do less kneading with the 8 pounder and because it's 8 pounds of dough things go slower (i.e., longer wait periods).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2006, 12:54:35 AM »
Typically I make 2 pounds of dough and with this 8 pounder the dough did rise more (faster) and even did some rising in the fridge.  I used the same proportions.   I don't know the science behind this, but maybe someone else does.

Arthur,

I believe the concept is that of mass effect, which is described here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg30150.html#msg30150. See also Evelyne's Reply 489 in the same thread.

Peter

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2006, 10:45:45 AM »
Thanks Peter.

So what do you get from having the dough rise multiple times (i.e., more sugar taste in the dough, more airy, less airy?).   

Take a look at what Marco mentioned in the last sentence here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3057.msg25947.html#msg25947


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2006, 11:59:44 AM »
Arthur,

It is hard to give a simple answer to your question. In my experience, it takes a fair amount of yeast in a dough to have it rise two or three times (usually with punchdowns in between). However, with the right amount of yeast, the doubling or tripling of the dough can take place at room temperature or under cold fermentation and it can happen over the course of a few hours (e.g., for a dough fermented at room temperaure) or over a period of a day or more (e.g., for a cold fermented dough). In general, commercial yeasts tend to produce doughs with greater and faster volume expansion than when natural starters are used but if the amount of starter used is fairly high and it is also highly active and the dough also undergoes some period of room temperature fermentation, it is possible to get a similar dough expansion from the use of natural starters. Some members supplement natural starters with commercial yeast to get increased dough expansion just in case the natural starter can't do the job alone, especially when the amount of starter used is very small.

I personally don't equate multiple dough rises with quality in the finished crust. The dough might be light and airy but the flavor in the finished crust may be lacking because of insufficient fermentation. High amounts of yeast also use up sugars faster, which means you will usually use the finished dough sooner. If the window of usability is too short, there may be insufficient time to develop the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor and odor. In my opinion, the only time to use high amounts of yeast and multiple rises is when you want to make a few-hours (a.k.a. "emergency") dough. You will get a light and airy dough in most cases, but at the expense of a flavorful, well-textured crust.

I am familiar with the post you referenced. My recollection is that Marco indicated that you have to get to really high levels of yeast, around 5% or so, before the natural sugars in the dough are depleted. I am not aware of any dough formulation that calls for that amount of yeast. Under normal circumstances you shouldn't need any added sugar in your dough, however, many people like it for flavor purposes and better crust coloration. In your case, with a very high temperature oven, you will not want to add any sugar to your doughs. The high oven temperatures will cause the sugar to burn and blacken the bottom crust.

Peter

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2006, 09:21:37 AM »
Peter, 

Thank you for the response.  Everything you mentioned makes sense based on my "experiments".  I still have a lot to learn and you provide a great deal of insight.

I finally had great success with my caputo flour this week.  Last night I made 6 pies for guests.  The dough I made earlier this week (large batch by hand) produced my best crust yet.  The crust was light and airy and had an unbelievable taste.   Unfortunately my pictures of a cross section were blurry - only the pictures of the pies came out - but they certainly had that great airy quality.

I wish I could narrow down the reason for my success to one thing but I learn so much from this forum and use the multiple tid-bits of knowledge in my dough making that I can't be sure (yet) why I had such success.

I probably won't go back and try to determine the one real reason I was successful, but I can say that it had to do with one of a couple of things (most likely in this order)
- large dough amount - since I made 8 pounds of dough I was able to get the mass effect.  I really don't think the small batches work well.   Maybe that's why so many people like me don't have great results with the KA mixer; since you can only make small batches.
- high hydration (although I always thought I was using a high hydration I realized that I was still using an extra amount of flour near the end of my process when I get to my short hand kneading phase (after KA mixing phase).  Since my batches were small the extra amount translated to a larger percentage of the overall flour - in other words 65% becomes 60% pretty quickly.  This time I was fully hand kneading and was careful not to add in extra flour.
- more rest periods
- less kneading (let the yeast do its job)

Here are a few pictures from last night.  My first Marinara as well.  We also had my homemade Chocolate Gelato to top off the night.





« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 09:28:11 AM by Arthur »

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2006, 01:58:34 PM »
nice work there Arthur! 

hey I am looking at at the earthstone 90 oven right now.  Whike Im here may I ask why you  went with the forno bravo over the earthstone?  just got a price list from them and they seem to be more do-able for me.  just wondering -marc

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2006, 08:17:38 PM »
Marc,

Honestly since I didn't have the background on what's the best wood ovens for pizzas (although there now seems to be a lot of discussion on these boards about that) I really just went for a few factors - 1) price; 2)support.   I don't see the prices for earthstone on their site, but I think at the time they were comparable with the forno bravo ovens; some of the other competitors were a lot higher.  As for support, I was impressed with the PDF directions on the forno bravo site and the hour or so James at fornobravo spent with me on the phone (before buying) going over lots of details.  He then returned dozens+ of emails after purchasing the oven to help me with detailed questions on installation.    After using my oven probably 10 times or so I can just say that I am extremely happy with my purchase.   I might have gone a little bit bigger, but that's my only complaint.  Yesterday in making these pies (mentioned above) I had the hearth at 900+ degrees.   I have also made a ciabatta (bread) and I will attempt steak, turkey, salmon and other items over time.  Growing up in Brooklyn no one had a fireplace so this wood chopping thing is new to me although I'm starting to get pretty good at it.  Good luck with your decision - but my suggestion is get one (doesn't matter where).  You won't regret it.  I now have my NY style street pizza (KASL/indoor oven) and my Neapolitan pizza (caputo/wood oven).    The one thing about getting a wood oven is that you become very popular fast. 


Offline jwnorris

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2006, 02:42:35 PM »
I second Arthur's comments.  I even went so far as to show up at Jameses location in NoCal and he spent at least an hour showing me all I needed to know to convince me to go Forno Bravo.  ;D

When I ultimately got around to ordering, and having gone back and forth between a Casa 90 and Casa 100, neither was in stock.  However a Casa 110 was clearing customs in the next week and I decided not to wait.  Boy, is it BIG.

Now, after cooking in it a half a dozen times, while it stills seems bigger than I need I am glad to have it.  And with 21 expected for Thanksgiving, I am sure that it will be put to the test.
  :chef:

J W

<snip>
 As for support, I was impressed with the PDF directions on the forno bravo site and the hour or so James at fornobravo spent with me on the phone (before buying) going over lots of details.  He then returned dozens+ of emails after purchasing the oven to help me with detailed questions on installation.    After using my oven probably 10 times or so I can just say that I am extremely happy with my purchase.  I might have gone a little bit bigger, but that's my only complaint.

<snip>
- but my suggestion is get one (doesn't matter where).  You won't regret it.  I now have my NY style street pizza (KASL/indoor oven) and my Neapolitan pizza (caputo/wood oven).    The one thing about getting a wood oven is that you become very popular fast. 


Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2006, 04:27:38 PM »
I made some pizza today and was able to snap this picture before the slice was eaten.    My airy result has been achieved as mentioned in a previous post.   This pie was made with commercial yeast, full warm rise, cooked in a wood burning oven at 900 degrees for 90 seconds.

I believe that a high hydration and my hand kneading process is key to achieving this result.

Thanks to those who provided input.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 04:29:46 PM by Arthur »


Offline kiwipete

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2006, 03:53:46 AM »
Hi Arthur,

That last pizza looks wonderful. (as did the previous lot). so it now seems that you are able to get the desired results consistently.

For the benefit of everybody who reads this thread, who you now be able to please detail your whole process, from whoa to go, sorta speak?

Like quantities (percentages) used of flour, water, yeast.

Details of the mixing period (how long, rests etc)

Details of the rising period (temperature, how long, when do you form the balls, how long they in turn rise for etc).

Peter.

Offline scpizza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2006, 08:29:20 AM »
Higher hydrations cause the large, irregular holes.  Does anyone know techniques or ingredients to keep the holes large but make them more regular?

Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2006, 10:53:05 AM »
higher heat ,  longer kneading

Offline DiNAPOLI

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #93 on: December 14, 2006, 11:05:19 AM »
Hi Arthur,

That last pizza looks wonderful. (as did the previous lot). so it now seems that you are able to get the desired results consistently.

For the benefit of everybody who reads this thread, who you now be able to please detail your whole process, from whoa to go, sorta speak?

Like quantities (percentages) used of flour, water, yeast.

Details of the mixing period (how long, rests etc)

Details of the rising period (temperature, how long, when do you form the balls, how long they in turn rise for etc).

Peter.

Yes I agree, we need all the details, especially us new guys.
those pizza's look fabulous!!!
my #1 problem is not having a wood burning oven
and not being able to get my oven at home to high temp....it only goes to about 550
but anyway please tell us the whole story
thanks Arthur!!

regards

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2006, 08:25:39 PM »
Wow!  Thanks for the compliments.    I'm in travel mode right now so I'm not by my "official" recipe which changes after ever time I make pizza, but here are certainly the key things I have used to get the dough looking like it did in that last picture - which BTW was my best pie ever.  It had that candy-like taste with a "crispy" outside and soft inside.

Many of these things are really from others on these boards so I don't take any credit for this:
- high hydration - 63-65%.  I know it's hard to work with but get used to it
- high heat - I'm sorry, but I took my best dough and made it on a stone instead at 550 and it was just plain ole bad.  I really think (and this has been mentioned many times) that you cannot use Caputo and come out with a good tasting pie when baking in more than 2 minutes.   You really need to get up there 750 at least and really 850-900.   I know that's not helpful to lots of people who don't have wood burning ovens but I really don't think you can do it.  I would stick with KASL for home ovens.   There's just something about the flour that doesn't taste good when baked for over 2 minutes.   Of course I highly recommend getting a wood oven if you have any sort of backyard. 
- warm rise (like many others have mentioned) - thats 12-18 hours in bulk then 4-6 hours in balls.   No need for fridge.

These 3 items above take care of 95% of the "problem".  Lots of other things are noise - amounts of salt, yeast, etc. - I would just stick to what you are comfortable with.  The handling of the dough may be a factor but the obvious answer is handle the dough as little as possible.

As for yeast - the above picture was using SAF yeast.  I made some pizza last weekend with my new wild yeast starter and it wasn't good at all (to me anyway).  It had that great slightly sour taste, but I didn't get the airy crust.  It probably wasn't active when I used it - more experiments needed. 

Here's what I do differently:
- I hand knead.   I have a KA mixer and I just don't get it right coming out of there.  I can't really explain my hand kneading process because I'm still learning how to come out with a solid repeatable process.  I don't know if other mixers like santos and DLX would be better or I'm just really bad with mixers, but I can tell you that I doubt that I will go back to using a mixer.  At this point I have the "feel" of the dough and staring to be able to tell when the dough is good and ready.

Since I'm no expert I can only suggest what I do.  I take advice from everyone on these forums and create several different doughs (yes it takes me a while to do that) and compare them against a baseline.  I honestly have never followed anyones specific recipe. I just use different points to add to my recipe (like high hydration or warm rise or autolyse).  I pick the best, note the differences and do it again week after week.

Arthur.


 

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