Author Topic: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result  (Read 21487 times)

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Offline Arthur

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First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« on: October 14, 2006, 11:17:17 PM »
After so many years using solely KASL I made a couple of pies tonight with Caputo and a couple with KASL.  I had some friends over and everone loved the Caputo pies much better than the KASL - I'd have to agree.  Good thing, since I just bought a 50lb bag!

Because of my newly functional wood burning oven I decided to try the Caputo flour.  I used a 62% or so hydration level (very wet), salt, and instant yeast (no oil).  I had a 20 minute autolyse period (started with water, yeast and salt and slowly added some flour) and mixed the dough (slowly adding rest of flour through the next steps) 5 minutes, rest 5, then another 5 minutes.  The dough seemed to be a great consistency after mixing.   I put the dough in the fridge for a cold rise for 2 days.    The dough didn't really rise (that much at all) in the fridge (typically my KASL dough doesn't either).

When using the dough it still had this great consistency.   After cooking in my oven (750 floor, 900+ dome) probably for 2-3 minutes I was not pleased with the dense-ness of the dough.  My dough wasn't airy.   In looking at pictures on the site most are dense like my dough but occasionally you'll see an airy crust.    I'm going for airy like described here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2938.msg25170.html#msg25170

Here's more information to help with the analysis.
I use Caputo pizzeria flour
I use SAF Instant yeast - it's been in my freezer for 6 months in a ziplock bag.  I believe the date on it is still ok.  About 1/2 teaspoon to produce 2 lbs of dough.

In addition to getting the airy dough I would like to improve the taste and quality.
I will be trying to bring in a starter into my dough.
I would like to try a warm rise, but not sure how to.

I was, however, able to get past my wet cheese issue - I'll post some info in the "cheese" area.






Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 02:52:15 AM »
Arthur, try kneading longer.  5 and 5 is not really that much for Caputo.  It is the trickiest four of all that I have tried, but when you crack the code you will get the best crust ever.  It can be totally light and airy.  Don't feel bad, I think everybody has issues when they first start using Caputo.  I have gone through various stages of having to add oil, and blending in American flour to overcome the fact that I was not mixing for long enough.  Now none of that is needed and my crust is the best it's ever been and I make killer pies every time (unlike before).


Also drop that hydration.   If you are really doing 3 minute pies you need to get closer to 60% hydration with this flour for it to get light enough.  If you give it a long slow fermentation it will still handle like a dream, and stretch out easily.

You should be able to make a light airy perfect product with either room temp or fridge fermentation.  For room temp just use very little yeast and let it rise long and slow.  Just make sure you give the dough balls at least 6 hours before you use them after forming.

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 09:40:40 AM »
Thanks scott.  How long of a knead do you suggest?  I use a kitchen aid currently for 2 pounds of dough.

Offline varasano

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2006, 09:54:15 AM »
Hey Arthur,

When the dough came out of the fridge, you said it did not rise that much, but you did not say if you did a warm rise at that time to allow it to rise more. If not, then you need to do this step.

Jeff

Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2006, 11:44:03 AM »
Are you sure your oven is at the temps you say Arthur?
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Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 11:59:34 AM »

Also drop that hydration.   

Why do you sugest this Scott?
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Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 12:41:09 PM »
From my experiments I have come to the conclusion that caputo does not like high hydrations unless the bakes are under 2 minutes.  I know it sounds weird,  If I have a 550 oven I recommend really high hydrations,  If I have an 900 degree oven, I recommend really high hydrations, but if I have a 700 degree oven (or 2-3 minute bakes) I recommend a lower hydration.  I am not exactly sure why this is, but it is just what I have found from trying various doughs at various temps.  American flour is much more forgiving, and I can use high hydration doughs pretty much anywhere.

With a 2-3 minute bake and a hydration above 60% most of my caputo pies at the higher hydrations are either too soggy (not light and airy) , or they tend to harden up and get tough and crackery??  I have on occasion been able to get a pie to come out nice, but the window of opportunity between the pie being too soggy, or too hard is very small.  With a 60% dough my consistency goes way up and every pie is light and airy.

I believe wetter is always better if you are doing one minute bakes.  Just not for 3, so if Arthur gets that oven really cranking the wetter doughs might turn out excellent pies.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 01:35:22 PM by scott r »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2006, 12:49:10 PM »
scott,

Do you use the same dough ball weight and pizza size at all the temperatures you use?

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2006, 01:30:21 PM »


Arthur, I am using an electrolux like the one Jeff has pictured on his site, so I am not really sure how long you will need to mix with your Kitchen Aid.  My guess is that you may even need to mix for longer than I do.  I will tell you what I do, and you can try adapting it to your mixer.  It should work, as the point where I stop mixing is based on a visual clue.

Start by bringing the dough slowly up to the hydration where it is just about to turn into a ball that just collects around the beater.  I don't know about your KA, but my electrolux gets to this point somewhere around 63%hydration.  If I take my dough any lower than that while it is in the mixer a ball forms an no more mixing is accomplished.  So, take it right to the point where you see it want to start balling up.  You can dump in 50-75% of your flour fairly quickly pretty much right at the beginning, and just slowly add the rest until you see it start to get to that ball forming hydration.  I usually take about 10 minutes in this initial mixing stage to add the majority of the flour.

Once your dough is just about to form a ball around your beater you can walk away and just let your mixer spin the batter for roughly another 10 minutes.  There will be a point where the dough starts to change.  It is very hard to explain, but you will see it sort of start to harden up,  almost as if you had just added more flour,  but you didn't.  It just sort of starts to go smooth.  The change is minimal, but you should notice it if you watch carefully.  At this point stop the mixer and pour some of your remaining flour over the dough ball.  Your dough should still be very soft and easy to manipulate.  If it is not easy to manipulate you did mix it too long so try less next time.  I sort of dredge the dough ball in the flour to fully coat it, then as gently as I can I fold the dough over on itself trying to incorporate the final flour from the recipe.  Once the dough gets a little sticky again, I coat it in more of the remaining flour and repeat until it is all used up.  I think that if I had a professional mixer I could have just added all the flour to the mixer and I would not have to do this final step.   I would stop mixing right when the dough started to go smooth, as I think this is the point where the dough is essentially done.   Since I am using a home mixer I have to improvise here by adding this last hand kneading step, so  I am very careful not to overwork the dough.  Just use gentle folds here, no pounding or classic hand kneading techniques here.   The last bit of flour is hard to incorporate, so if your dough starts to harden just let it rest for a short time (less than a minute) and it should soften up. 

Once all  the flour is incorporated let the dough rest for 20 minutes, and fold the dough over on itself a few more times.  You are done.

As far as total mix time we are probably talking 25 minutes here.  This is more than I ever used to do, and my dough is now the best it has ever been.  I no longer need to add American flour, oil, or use an autolyse to get dough that performs to it's maximum potential.  Even at 60% hydration the dough stretches out easily never even hinting at a rip.  You would think it is 65% hydration by the way that it stretches.  Also, I am able to use less bench flour, because the dough actually is quite dry.  I get huge voids, and the dough is crispy on the outside, while still staying soft and tender and moist on the inside because of the quick bake.

I haven't tried mixing longer with my American flours yet, but my guess is that I have been undermixing all my doughs.

On to the next level.  ;D

Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2006, 01:33:41 PM »
scott,

Do you use the same dough ball weight and pizza size at all the temperatures you use?

Peter

I tend to go with smaller dough balls as the temperature increases.  This seems to help avoid the dried out crust that can happen with the slower bakes.



Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2006, 03:52:16 PM »
Thanks for the great responses.

Jeff,  I only took out the dough from the fridge an hour before I used it.  What do you suggest?

David, my temp gun registers 750 or so on the floor of the oven right next to the coals.  Further away is obviously less.  The dome is about 900+.  The wood burning on the side of the oven causes the fire to rise across the dome to the other side.  My pizza probably takes closer to 3 or more minutes to cook.  David, what do you suggest for an "ideal" temp?

Scott, I think my mixing technique is mainly the problem here like you suggest since I don't ever really see the dough rise much (do you with your dough?).  Additionally during the first 5 minutes of mixing my dough was more of a poolish and only in the last 1-2 minutes did my dough really form well.   Scott, do you use an autolyse period?  I don't really let the dough rest before I put it in the fridge so maybe the 20 minute rest at the end might help as well.  I will follow your technique on my next attempt this coming week. 

For those that use an autolyse period, what should the dough look like? (watery, chunky, solid... should it bubble?)   


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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2006, 04:13:50 PM »
Arthur,

For a good discussion of autloyse and what you can come to expect, you may want to take a look at this thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22758.html#msg22758. and particularly the cocoabean post at Reply 9.

When I have used autolyse, the dough is solid but smooth and soft and easy to knead. It is not chunky or watery.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2006, 08:34:28 PM »
arthur, with my long slow mix an autolyse is not needed.  I have tried it with and without an autolyse and the differences are minimal if any.  Back when I was mixing less the autolyse was an improvement.

Yes, absolutely give it a rest before you ball the dough.   I try to give it a few hours before I make the balls even when I am retarding the dough in the fridge.    I don't see the dough rise much when I am retarding in the fridge, but at 65-80 degrees with my room temp fermentations I do let it rise much more.  This also all depends on if I am using commercial yeast as well. 

The most rise goes to a room temp dough made with commercial yeast.  The dough can even double, then form balls, then double again. 

If it is a room temp dough with a starter I give it less rise.  Really there is not much at all by the time I ball the dough.  Then after balling I don't let it quite double, but there is more rise than there was before the rise in bulk.

With fridge retardation it is alright if your dough rises very little.

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2006, 08:36:06 PM »
Thanks Peter.  I didn't realize that you hold back the instant yeast (and salt) and just mix the flour and water first, but the explanation makes sense.  Scott, it doesn't sound like you do this.  Would this cut down your mix time?

Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 08:39:42 PM »
Yes, an autolyse will let you mix for less time and still have a dough that performs well, but I am no longer convinced that a short knead with caputo is the best method. 

 I have been making autolyse doughs about 50% of the time for the past few years.

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2006, 09:11:21 PM »
Hmmm.  Trying to figure out what I should test this week.  Most likely the following:

- longer mix time (more like 20 minutes+ instead of 10)
- probably an autolyse period with just the flour and water (no yeast)
- longer room temp waits before the fridge and before baking
- possibly try to raise the temp of the oven a bit

I'll try these unless someone has a better suggestion for an airy result.



« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 09:16:16 PM by Arthur »

Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2006, 11:05:22 PM »
Thanks for the great responses.

David, what do you suggest for an "ideal" temp?


As hot as you can get it burning wood.I  think it's really just a few of us who use these digital guns and really they are a crutch.Basically if yor oven starts of white,then turns black and by the time it is completely back to being white again,then it's ready.
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Offline November

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2006, 12:47:54 AM »
I  think it's really just a few of us who use these digital guns and really they are a crutch.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go.  A crutch?!  So are measuring cups, measuring spoons, and mass scales also crutches to you?  Some people strive for consistency, and I don't think a tool that provides a means to this goal is a crutch.  It's fine if you don't want to use one, but what if someone else had color blindness, or burned a different kind of wood (some woods burn at different temperatures), or had a different sized oven, or used a different amount of wood?  How are you going to account for those variances when you explain to someone the temperature the oven should be at if you don't actually give a temperature?

Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2006, 02:16:34 AM »
Hmmm.  Trying to figure out what I should test this week.  Most likely the following:

- longer mix time (more like 20 minutes+ instead of 10)
- probably an autolyse period with just the flour and water (no yeast)
- longer room temp waits before the fridge and before baking
- possibly try to raise the temp of the oven a bit

I'll try these unless someone has a better suggestion for an airy result.


Jeff, I wouldn't change too many things at once.  If you like the result how do you know what it was that caused it?



Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2006, 07:38:45 AM »
So are measuring cups, measuring spoons, and mass scales also crutches to you?  Some people strive for consistency, and I don't think a tool that provides a means to this goal is a crutch.  It's fine if you don't want to use one, but what if someone else had color blindness, or burned a different kind of wood (some woods burn at different temperatures), or had a different sized oven, or used a different amount of wood?  How are you going to account for those variances when you explain to someone the temperature the oven should be at if you don't actually give a temperature?

Point taken November.Actually if you read my past posts you will see that I'm an advocate for measuring and consistency.Measuring cups, measuring spoons, and mass scales are great ,even drug dealers insist upon them :o and Pizza is my drug of choice
I used my laser gun a lot when I  first built my oven and was trying to figure things out.The thing with these guns is you can point it near the top of your dome and get a high reading from the flame / heat  or near the coals and your oven actually may still not be ready for pizza.Using just the gun as a guide to someone who is new to using this type of oven may be misleading.The purely visual clues I suggested will work for someone if they have a gun or not.The size of the oven shouldn't make a difference.I wasn't aware of the color blindness factor involving black or white ( I'm not as smart as you)?The reason I gave the explanation I did is because these visual clues are reliable where the gun can be deceptive IMO.I wasn't trying to account for variances.I am aware of them (Condition of wood,size / length of split wood etc.etc.)The question is a bit like "How long should I cook my pizza for in my new wood fired oven"?Too many variables i would say for a specific time.Arthur asked for a temperature and I can't be that specific with an answer so I gave him  what was IMO the best advice.There are too many different temps. going on at one time in different spots.Maybe when you get a Tea break this morning you can whip up a tool so we can put in all the different variables and  come up with an acceptable answer  ;)
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              David
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