Author Topic: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result  (Read 20569 times)

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Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2006, 09:13:25 AM »
Jeff, I wouldn't change too many things at once.  If you like the result how do you know what it was that caused it?




Good point.  I'll at least first try a longer kneeding time since that's most likely the culprit.   Unfortunately for the autolyse I was just plain wrong in how I was doing that so whatever I do there will be a bit different.  I'll report back next weekend. 


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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2006, 10:04:38 AM »
Arthur,

I just wanted to mention that the thread on autolyse that I referred you to discusses the classic autolyse as devised by Professor Calvel. Since he did so (back in the 70s), many bakers have altered it to meet their particular situations and needs. Often bakers will introduce one or more rest periods that, while they may not be technically in accord with the Calvel autolyse, will improve the hydration of the dough nonetheless.

Peter

Offline Arthur

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2006, 11:42:22 AM »
Thanks Peter.  I was just completely off by adding my commercial yeast initially - which probably defeats the purpose of an autolyse.

Offline scott r

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2006, 11:52:05 AM »
Arthur, I am so sorry.  I was confused by the similarity of your (beautiful) picture to Jeff V's and addressed that post to the wrong person.

I guess the comment still holds true, but maybe not so much.  I know how technical Jeff is and that he has been working on the same recipe for a very long time, so maybe my comment was a little too strong.  I see no reason why you could not change a bunch of things since this is a relatively new type of flour for you.

On second look at your list I think that your prospective changes would be perfect.  Eventually some day also try lowering the hydration as well and see what you think.


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2006, 12:09:41 PM »
Arthur,

I just wanted to mention that the thread on autolyse that I referred you to discusses the classic autolyse as devised by Professor Calvel. Since he did so (back in the 70s), many bakers have altered it to meet their particular situations and needs. Often bakers will introduce one or more rest periods that, while they may not be technically in accord with the Calvel autolyse, will improve the hydration of the dough nonetheless.

Peter

Peter,

May I had that Neapolitan pizzamakers used something very similar to autholyse to help gluten development much earlier then Calvel ever published a book.

Thanks

Marco

Offline November

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2006, 12:32:18 PM »
The size of the oven shouldn't make a difference.I wasn't aware of the color blindness factor involving black or white ( I'm not as smart as you)?

So if you have one oven with 27 cubic feet heated by a 8200 BTU/h source and another oven with 21 cubic feet heated by the same source, you think the temperatures are going to be the same?  Also if someone can't see yellow or orange, knowing to look for white isn't going to help them much as the spectrum will be blurred in that region.

The thing with these guns is you can point it near the top of your dome and get a high reading from the flame / heat  or near the coals and your oven actually may still not be ready for pizza. [...] There are too many different temps. going on at one time in different spots.

How about providing a temperature where the pizza actually goes instead of wildly taking temperatures all over the oven? Put a pizza stone in the oven where you would normally have it and measure the temperature of the stone.  Or if you prefer, since you know about how long a pizza should bake for in a wood fire oven, measure the delta (change) in temperature of a metal pan @1 min, @2 min, @3 min, etc.  Just be sure it's a common pan so that anyone else can use the same pan for accuracy.  This will give information of not only how hot things are on the inside surface of your oven, but also of how much mass-energy there is for cooking a pizza after the first minute.

Maybe when you get a Tea break this morning you can whip up a tool so we can put in all the different variables and  come up with an acceptable answer  ;)

Or maybe I will just use a thermometer and give people a temperature.  You said, "Point taken" but given this sentence you don't seem to understand my point.  I took issue with your statement that a thermometer was a crutch.  If I designed an application that accepted all those variables and gave you a result, it would just be another crutch IYO.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2006, 01:52:23 PM »
So if you have one oven with 27 cubic feet heated by a 8200 BTU/h source and another oven with 21 cubic feet heated by the same source, you think the temperatures are going to be the same?  Also if someone can't see yellow or orange, knowing to look for white isn't going to help them much as the spectrum will be blurred in that region.

How about providing a temperature where the pizza actually goes instead of wildly taking temperatures all over the oven? Put a pizza stone in the oven where you would normally have it and measure the temperature of the stone.  Or if you prefer, since you know about how long a pizza should bake for in a wood fire oven, measure the delta (change) in temperature of a metal pan @1 min, @2 min, @3 min, etc.  Just be sure it's a common pan so that anyone else can use the same pan for accuracy.  This will give information of not only how hot things are on the inside surface of your oven, but also of how much mass-energy there is for cooking a pizza after the first minute.

Or maybe I will just use a thermometer and give people a temperature.  You said, "Point taken" but given this sentence you don't seem to understand my point.  I took issue with your statement that a thermometer was a crutch.  If I designed an application that accepted all those variables and gave you a result, it would just be another crutch IYO.

November,

Without entering into the depth of the discussion, I would like to address the following:

While the use of measuring equipment can have some "indicative" purposes in dough making, considering all the variables etc, having used many different types of wood ovens, I have to tell you that the same doesn't apply to Wood Fired Oven. Measuring the temperature won't convert in the same bake as well as there at the least three heat factors (Direct, Radiant and "wave"-not sure of the english word) that cannot be all measured (outside a test lab and with test equipment properly placed).

Cooking in the wood oven is one of the most "artisanal" job in the pizza wolrd and each "fornaio" shoul know HIS oven.

When I work on consultancy I train on how to recognise the optimum temperature, laser gun aside...

I can still remember one guy telling me that his oven was reaching the same temperature he had measured in Naples on a pizzeria oven's cooking floor: His oven still took 2.5 minutes to bake a pizza, the one in Naples took just under 60 seconds....

Thanks

Marco
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 01:54:59 PM by pizzanapoletana »

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2006, 02:11:11 PM »
May I had that Neapolitan pizzamakers used something very similar to autholyse to help gluten development much earlier then Calvel ever published a book.

Marco,

That is very interesting. As you may know, Professor Calvel was known for his work with artisanal European breads and it was in this context, not pizza dough making, that he came up with the idea for the autolyse. In the example you gave, did the Italian pizza makers combine only the flour and the water, that is, without salt or yeast? I haven't read Professor Calvel's book in which he describes the autolyse process but I believe he sought to have a neutral environment for the hydration of the flour so he left out the yeast (and the salt also, for other reasons). I believe he later came to accept the idea of adding a natural preferment and even a dry yeast on the premise that they wouldn't provide much, if any, acidification of the dough during the autolyse rest period.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2006, 02:18:33 PM »
Marco,

Here's all the depth of the discussion you need to know.  One person asks for an ideal temperature, and another person gives an implicatively elitist response.  As if it were beneath one to use a thermometer.  How can a person "know" their oven as you put it, without knowing the temperature in the baking region?  That's "feeling" not knowing.  All the "heat factors" you mentioned certainly contribute to the temperature of a surface, but that doesn't mean you can't measure the temperature.  Using burning wood only changes the convection aspect of baking.  Radiant and conduction are relatively the same as a non-wood-burning oven.  I guarantee you that if you take the metal pan test in two ovens and the results are identical, so will the baking.  Just be sure to use dark metal pans so that the radiant heat is absorbed.

"When I work on consultancy I train on how to recognise the optimum temperature, laser gun aside"

It's inaccurate to use the phrase "optimum temperature" when a temperature is not actually taken.  It's all relative without a thermometer.  That's fine once you know what your particular oven "looks and feels" like at the temperature you want it, but you first have to know it's at that temperature.

- red.november

Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2006, 02:42:49 PM »
So if you have one oven with 27 cubic feet heated by a 8200 BTU/h source and another oven with 21 cubic feet heated by the same source, you think the temperatures are going to be the same?  Also if someone can't see yellow or orange, knowing to look for white isn't going to help them much as the spectrum will be blurred in that region.

Haven't got a clue?Maybe you can answer Arthur's question better?

Quote
How about providing a temperature where the pizza actually goes instead of wildly taking temperatures all over the oven? Put a pizza stone in the oven where you would normally have it and measure the temperature of the stone.  Or if you prefer, since you know about how long a pizza should bake for in a wood fire oven, measure the delta (change) in temperature of a metal pan @1 min, @2 min, @3 min, etc.  Just be sure it's a common pan so that anyone else can use the same pan for accuracy.  This will give information of not only how hot things are on the inside surface of your oven, but also of how much mass-energy there is for cooking a pizza after the first minute.
Quote

I don't need to, as i'm familiar with my oven . What good would that do anyone else anyway as my oven and it's performance wil have it's own set of characteristics and variables (some) of which are controlled by me?The Pizza is placed at different points for different reasons and for varying results during cooking

Quote
Or maybe I will just use a thermometer and give people a temperature.  You said, "Point taken" but given this sentence you don't seem to understand my point.  I took issue with your statement that a thermometer was a crutch.  If I designed an application that accepted all those variables and gave you a result, it would just be another crutch IYO.
Quote

Thanks. Arthur (as others ) will be pleased to get a final and educated decision on this,instead of my half assed input.
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Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2006, 02:56:35 PM »
One person asks for an ideal temperature, and another person gives an implicatively elitist response.  As if it were beneath one to use a thermometer. 

You obviously didn't read my post too well.I did say that I use a thermometer,in numerous other posts I have talked about finished dough,OTH,water,flour temperatures etc and have advocated the importance I beleive.I would agree to some that THAT may sound elitist,but so be it.I'm not getting into a pissing contest with a scientist. It's Pizza.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2006, 02:59:25 PM »
Marco,

Here's all the depth of the discussion you need to know.  One person asks for an ideal temperature, and another person gives an implicatively elitist response.  As if it were beneath one to use a thermometer.  How can a person "know" their oven as you put it, without knowing the temperature in the baking region?  That's "feeling" not knowing.  All the "heat factors" you mentioned certainly contribute to the temperature of a surface, but that doesn't mean you can't measure the temperature.  Using burning wood only changes the convection aspect of baking.  Radiant and conduction are relatively the same as a non-wood-burning oven.  I guarantee you that if you take the metal pan test in two ovens and the results are identical, so will the baking.  Just be sure to use dark metal pans so that the radiant heat is absorbed.

"When I work on consultancy I train on how to recognise the optimum temperature, laser gun aside"

It's inaccurate to use the phrase "optimum temperature" when a temperature is not actually taken.  It's all relative without a thermometer.  That's fine once you know what your particular oven "looks and feels" like at the temperature you want it, but you first have to know it's at that temperature.

- red.november

Ok, apologies,

I should not have used "optimum temperature" and instead use optimum baking environment.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW THE TEMPERATURE! You learn how to recognise the optimum baking environment. People have been using similar wood ovens to todays ones for more then 2000 years and have all done so without knowing the temperatures. How? Out of tradition and passed on knowledge. Believe it or not is the only way for certain type of jobs.

November, you need to undertsand the limitation of learning behind a keyboard and/or book an artisan job. I won't discuss the heat distribuition issue because I could only properly do so in front of two different wood ovens, e.g a Neapolitan One  and Another type one, where I could easily show you that the two floor at the same temperature will cook in two different way/time.

Do you have a wood oven?

Thanks

Marco

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2006, 03:03:41 PM »
Marco,

That is very interesting. As you may know, Professor Calvel was known for his work with artisanal European breads and it was in this context, not pizza dough making, that he came up with the idea for the autolyse. In the example you gave, did the Italian pizza makers combine only the flour and the water, that is, without salt or yeast? I haven't read Professor Calvel's book in which he describes the autolyse process but I believe he sought to have a neutral environment for the hydration of the flour so he left out the yeast (and the salt also, for other reasons). I believe he later came to accept the idea of adding a natural preferment and even a dry yeast on the premise that they wouldn't provide much, if any, acidification of the dough during the autolyse rest period.

Peter

Peter,

Probably is better to say that Calvel's work related to French bread, possibly some Austrian/German ones, but European is a bit overstading. In the South of Italy only there is a whole tradition that differ enourmosly from the north and I have noticed the same in Portugal.

Anyway, it was similar to Calvel's autolyse, not the same, but they also knew approximatelly the time needed for this to be benificial. Other factors would not have an impact for this due to quantities and time.

Ciao

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2006, 03:11:23 PM »
Marco,

I suspect that the term "European" is too broad but that is how his work has been described in the literature that I was able to locate searching the internet. I did not do independent research on this point and suspect that it was easier to say "European" than to list all the countries.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 03:13:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2006, 03:17:56 PM »
"You obviously didn't read my post too well."

As hot as you can get it burning wood.I  think it's really just a few of us who use these digital guns and really they are a crutch.Basically if yor oven starts of white,then turns black and by the time it is completely back to being white again,then it's ready.

David.  That was your post.  Where does it say that you use a thermometer?  I don't care if you use one and mentioned it before or after this post.  This was what you said.  I guess you don't realize that for people who like to know the temperature of their oven (a pretty common occurrence even in the professional culinary world), a statement like "these digital guns [...] are a crutch" is quite offensive.  This isn't about getting into a "pissing match."  It's about either not being hypocritical if you find that thermometers are an important measurement tool, or recognize the fact that a lot of other people think that way.

David & Marco,

There's a simple solution to this.  When someone asks what the ideal temperature is, answer "I don't think there is one as long as you keep it above x degrees."  In case the definition fails you, a "crutch" is what one uses when they are weak.  Is that the message you're trying to convey?  "People have been using similar wood ovens to todays ones for more then 2000 years and have all done so without knowing the temperatures." - Marco  People have also measured ingredients without resolutions of 1g or the use of digital scales, but does that make a digital scale a crutch?

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Offline November

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2006, 03:22:18 PM »
November, you need to undertsand the limitation of learning behind a keyboard and/or book an artisan job. [...] Do you have a wood oven?

Excuse me, but I have spent many years learning in the lab and I know it applies in the kitchen as well.  That doesn't mean you throw out the book though.  The book gives you knowledge while the lab/kitchen gives you experience in application.  Yes, I have a wood burning oven/grill.

Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2006, 03:35:51 PM »
As hot as you can get it burning wood.I  think it's really just a few of us who use these digital guns and really they are a crutch.Basically if yor oven starts of white,then turns black and by the time it is completely back to being white again,then it's ready.

Sorry I wrongly assumed it would be read as including me ? Ah well...... c'est la vie.
Yes I do think they can be crutches as when 99% of the people who make pizza probably don't own one,there will now be some who will feel inadequate and helpless without it. Yes,scales,thermometers ,food processors,mixers,recipes, etc.etc.They are all bloody crutches.
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Offline November

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2006, 03:40:47 PM »
"Haven't got a clue?Maybe you can answer Arthur's question better?"

What?!  I'm not even familiar with the pizza he's trying to bake.  Whether I have an answer for him has nothing to do with it since it isn't my pizza he's trying to bake.  If it were my pizza recipe or I was familiar with baking it, I would be more than happy to give him a temperature.

"I don't need to, as i'm familiar with my oven . What good would that do anyone else anyway as my oven and it's performance wil have it's own set of characteristics and variables (some) of which are controlled by me?"

That is ridiculous.  All ovens, wood-burning or not are different.  That doesn't stop people from giving temperatures in their recipes.  Smart people assume that results may vary, but it's a starting place.

"Arthur (as others ) will be pleased to get a final and educated decision on this,instead of my half assed input."

I don't know what you're rambling about here either.  I simply took issue with calling a thermometer a crutch and now you're talking about my input to Arthur.  I haven't addressed Arthur once.  I'm addressing you.  This is a discussion board, and I'm sure there is no rule that you can't address someone if they're not asking a question.

Offline November

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2006, 03:47:08 PM »
Sorry I wrongly assumed it would be read as including me ? Ah well...... c'est la vie.
Yes I do think they can be crutches as when 99% of the people who make pizza probably don't own one,there will now be some who will feel inadequate and helpless without it. Yes,scales,thermometers ,food processors,mixers,recipes, etc.etc.They are all bloody crutches.

Again, I don't care if you use one.  It's not a crutch unless the definition of "crutch" has changed in the last few minutes.  They're just tools.  "there will now be some who will feel inadequate and helpless without it"  However, inversely you potentially offend people who then use one.  Do you concern yourself with someone else's feelings of inadequacy when mentioning the weight of flour in a recipe when there are many people who don't own a scale?

Offline David

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Re: First try with Caputo - looking for an airy result
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2006, 03:55:20 PM »
  Your funny November..........and it's only October ! :-D :-D :-D
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