Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 144351 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2011, 08:08:57 PM »
I wanted to ask you a question how you decided on such a high oil amount for the M&M clone formulas?  The formulas contained almost as much oil as I used in the formula for the NJ Boardwalk thread.  Do you think the amount of oil with the lower hydration has anything to do with how much oven spring the pizza will have?  I wonder about oil amount when I mixed the dough.  The dough today is fermenting about the same as my last attempt at a Mack’s pizza.  Did you decide on the oil amount from the Papa John’s thread?


Norma,

What I was trying to do is to get some “lift” into the MM clone dough so that it would have a decent oven spring despite what I concluded was a fairly low hydration value. I came to that conclusion from watching videos like the one at
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7-oxqmv7L8&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7-oxqmv7L8&amp;feature=related</a>
and also from my examination of the crust of the MM pizza that I had during my recent visit to the MM store on Jacksonville Beach, FL that led me to conclude that the MM dough was on the dense side, not light, soft and billowy, despite the bulbous rim.

The amount of oil I set forth in the proposed MM clone dough formulation was an estimated guess, given that we have no information on the amounts of any of the ingredients used to make a real MM dough. If there were published Nutrition Facts for the MM pizzas, then that might have helped determine how much oil and sugar (molasses) to use. But, alas, that information does not exist. However, the reason and purpose for using the amount of oil I proposed in the MM dough clone formulation are as I discussed in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7915.msg67933/topicseen.html#msg67933. I was also counting on the oil to get increased volume/height in the dough and finished crust, just as Tom Lehmann mentioned in one of his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50068#p50068.

Since molasses is used instead of sucrose (table sugar), I was also relying on the hygroscopic and rheological attributes and characteristics of the molasses to retain moisture in the dough while improving the extensibility of the dough despite the relatively low nominal hydration value. I was trying to keep the amount of molasses at a level to provide a noticeable sweetness in the finished crust and crumb while adequately feeding the yeast and providing a tan color to the dough and finished crust but not so much as to cause the bottom of the crust to prematurely turn brown or even burn when baked on the hot pizza stone. The net effect of using the combination of the oil and molasses is to produce a more tender and softer crumb, but not as much as a Papa John’s clone pizza.

Until I have had a chance to assess Biz's response to my recent post on his recent results, I will not know whether the dough formulation I proposed has the right set of values for the different ingredients. Of course, your results should also be instructive. Your test will also be important given that you will be using your deck oven.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 09:01:41 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2011, 08:28:47 PM »
Norma,

What I was trying to do is to get some “lift” into the MM clone dough so that it would have a decent oven spring despite what I concluded was a fairly low hydration value. I came to that conclusion from watching videos like the one at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7-oxqmv7L8&feature=related and also from my examination of the crust of the MM pizza that I had during my recent visit to the MM store on Jacksonville Beach, FL that led me to conclude that the MM dough was on the dense side, not light, soft and billowy, despite the bulbous rim.

The amount of oil I set forth in the proposed MM clone dough formulation was an estimated guess, given that we have no information on the amounts of any of the ingredients used to make a real MM dough. If there were published Nutrition Facts for the MM pizzas, then that might have helped determine how much oil and sugar (molasses) to use. But, alas, that information does not exist. However, the reason and purpose for using the amount of oil I proposed in the MM dough clone formulation are as I discussed in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7915.msg67933/topicseen.html#msg67933. I was also counting on the oil to get increased volume/height in the dough and finished crust, just as Tom Lehmann mentioned in one of his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50068#p50068.

Since molasses is used instead of sucrose (table sugar), I was also relying on the hygroscopic and rheological attributes and characteristics of the molasses to retain moisture in the dough while improving the extensibility of the dough despite the relatively low nominal hydration value. I was trying to keep the amount of molasses at a level to provide a noticeable sweetness in the finished crust and crumb while adequately feeding the yeast and providing a tan color to the dough and finished crust but not so much as to cause the bottom of the crust to prematurely turn brown or even burn when baked on the hot pizza stone. The net effect of using the combination of the oil and molasses is to produce a more tender and softer crumb, but not as much as a Papa John’s clone pizza.

Until Biz responds to my recent post on his recent results, I will not know whether the dough formulation I proposed has the right set of values for the different ingredients. Of course, your results should also be instructive. Your test will also be important given that you will be using your deck oven.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for responding on why you decided to use so much oil in the formula you set-forth with a lower hydration.  My attempted dough today (when it was fermenting) felt just like my last attempted Mack’s dough, but had a different color and smell.  I would think it might handle about the same way as my last Mack’s attempt, but I won’t know until tomorrow.  When I was mixing the attempted dough it looked about the same as a Mack’s dough too. 

I also wonder about the different comments I saw on Yelp, and other places on the web, that many people think a Mellow Mushroom pizza tastes something like a pretzel.  I wonder if you thought the same thing when you ate your real Mellow Mushroom pizza.  I think I read they use the same dough for their pizzas and pretzels.  I did experiment with different pretzel dough pizzas, so I wonder if the dough I made will taste anything like some of the pretzel dough pizzas I made.

Maybe Biz can comment on if he thinks a Mushroom Mellow pizza tastes anything like a pretzel.

Norma
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Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2011, 08:31:52 PM »

Maybe Biz can comment on if he thinks a Mushroom Mellow pizza tastes anything like a pretzel.

Norma

I will have an even more affirmative answer tomorrow, but no, I wouldn't say it tastes like a pretzel. 

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2011, 08:34:48 PM »
I will have an even more affirmative answer tomorrow, but no, I wouldn't say it tastes like a pretzel. 

Biz,

Thanks for posting you will have a more affirmative answer tomorrow, but you didn't think the Mellow Mushroom pizza tasted like a pretzel.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #104 on: September 19, 2011, 08:38:13 PM »
Norma,

I read the same thing about the pretzel dough but I did not think that the MM pizza tasted like a pretzel. If it did, I think that comparison would have jumped out at me.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2011, 08:42:49 PM »
Norma,

I read the same thing about the pretzel dough but I did not think that the MM pizza tasted like a pretzel. If it did, I think that comparison would have jumped out at me.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for also letting me know you didn't think the pizza tasted anything like a pretzel.

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2011, 09:01:40 PM »
This is funny regarding the pizza dough and pretzel-like taste...

Read the third review on the Avellino dough from Kristina T. on 9-15-2011

http://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-avellino-san-francisco?rpp=40&sort_by=date_desc
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2011, 06:34:16 AM »

Here are some pictures of the failed second attempt (the first being my own guesstimate formula which turned out much better, but more so because I formed a rim and baked it differently).
1. Skin with sauce
2. Skin with cheese
3. finished pie.  the flash makes it look darker than it really was
4. rim shot of one of the smaller-rimmed pieces.  Due to my novice skin-shaping skills, the rim is always thicker in some sections than others.
5. rim shot of the highest rimmed piece.


Biz,

Even though you reported that your Mellow Mushroom pizza was a failed attempt, the pizza looks pretty darn good to me.  :)  It did look like it had a somewhat puffy rim.  Since you have eaten real Mellow Mushroom pizzas, you opinions are great though.  You should know when your pizzas taste like a real Mellow Mushroom pizza.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #108 on: September 20, 2011, 06:57:47 AM »
I was thinking over about if the pizza crusts at Mellow Mushroom could taste anything like their pretzels since supposedly they are made out of the same dough. I looked on Yelp again for pictures of the Mellow Mushroom pizza and pretzels to compare what they look like.  From Stephanie B. there is a picture of the soft pretzels at Mellow Mushroom at: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/tm8sQkFL4Us9o3YcX8kdqQ?select=O0kgQPMcTkO8obkgZGH6NA and http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/tm8sQkFL4Us9o3YcX8kdqQ?select=_X1EmBQCZSIlcJ7CyVkpsg
They sure don’t look like soft pretzels to me, but in a blog at http://orangedragonflyblog.com/2011/02/mellow-mushroom-love-at-first-pie/  there are pictures of the soft pretzels and they do look more like real soft pretzels.  On searching Google images at http://images.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1426&bih=909&q=Mellow+Mushroom+pretzels&gbv=2&oq=Mellow+Mushroom+pretzels&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=6359l19175l0l19681l28l28l2l14l13l0l286l1976l0.10.2l12l0
The soft pretzels look somewhat different in different pictures.  

I know when I made soft pretzels on the Pretzel dough thread with DNA Dan and also made pizza out of Auntie Anne’s Soft Pretzel mix, under my Mystery Dough thread, the pizza crust and soft pretzels didn’t taste anything like each other, except when using the Auntie Anne’s’ Soft Pretzel mix, the dough seemed kinda chewy and was way too sweet.  I didn’t think DNA Dan’s pretzels and pizza looked like each other either.

Some of the blogs with pictures in the above link, the pizza crust and the pretzels look almost alike, at least to me.

I guess Mushroom Mellow also uses their pizza dough to make Wild Garlic Balls and other food products.  At the blog at http://orlandoveggie.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/mellow-mushroom-they-have-trivia-too/
It shows the Wild Garlic Balls and some pictures of the Mushroom Mellow pizzas.  I guess this post is about how many products can be made out of the same doughs, and how they are baked might give an altogether different product.

Maybe Biz might want to note today in his visit to Mushroom Mellow, if anyone that is ordering soft pretzels from Mushroom Mellow, and see what he thinks the soft pretzels look like if he sees any.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 07:01:58 AM by norma427 »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #109 on: September 20, 2011, 01:49:34 PM »
Peter, here are the responses to your questions:
    I had to call the store to find out. . . it's Heartland Mills.  Upon checking their website and calling them, I discovered that they now call this flour "Strong Bread" and it only has a 12.5% protein content.  So a big change from my first attempt using KASL.  I don't think I'll use this flour for pizza again, at least while I still have some KASL (which I don't know if I can continue to keep around).
    I did not use the normal dough course.  I used the "homemade" course which allows you to turn on and off each individual cycle. . .I have it set only to "KNEAD" for 15 minutes.  I've been using this method for months with all my pizza doughs with no problems.  My only thing is that I don't know how the Zo mixing times compare to standard stand mixer times.
    I actually didn't realize MM formed a rim on the skin.  For some reason I've always felt shame for doing so.  Not sure where I got the idea but I've always felt that this was a novice's shortcut.  So this time I thought I would not form a rim to see what kind of spring I could get on the rim just from the oven.  I much prefer the results when I do form a rim on the skin so maybe I'll keep doing that.
   I have a piece of junk electric Hotpoint oven which until very recently only had 1 oven rack! I heated the stone for 45 mins on the absolute lowest position then baked it on the second-to-lowest rack.  I don't think I actually moved it up to the broiler - I just turned the broiler on for about a minute.    
    Yes indeed!  Used cornmeal on the peel and slid the sucker right on there.  BTW, I'm using an Emile Henry "Flame" 14'' Pizza Stone.
   No, but I think that's because the rim was so thin and overcooked to boot, so the crust basically tasted like a cracker.
    I'm considering it but I don't know what I'd do with it.  Meaning, I don't know how long it would need to ferment if any, etc, etc.  But it would be quite interesting to observe the color and texture.  


Biz,

I will respond to your questions using the same numbering scheme I originally used.

1. The Flour: I have read on a few occasions that MM uses “organic” flour. However, I never saw MM refer to its flour as being organic. If it were organic, then MM would use that feature in its advertising, especially given the “healthy” theme that MM has used since its beginning and the heightened interest on the part of the public in more healthful ingredients and foods. I would go back to the KASL for your future MM clone experiments. FYI, King Arthur does offer an organic high-gluten flour but it is very expensive. I see no need to go that route.

2. The Zo: I think that the Zojirushi bread maker does a better job of mixing and kneading than a basic KitchenAid stand mixer, especially one with a C-hook, with or without using the paddle attachment. Consequently, I believe that 15 minutes of kneading in the Zo is too much, especially given that the dough ball is only about 18 ounces. I would go with about 7 minutes. Too much kneading can toughen the dough and yield a crust that is too dense and maybe even on the flat side. The Papa John’s experience is useful but I wouldn’t rely on it too much. The PJ clone dough formulations and the MM clone dough formulation are not exactly alike.

3. The Rim: I definitely think that you should shoot for a distinct rim. It is a signature feature of the MM pizza. Some doughs, especially those with a high hydration and enough bottom heat will almost automatically form a rim even if you jump up and down on the outer edge or go over it with a steam roller to prevent one. However, from what I have seen in photos and videos of the MM dough, I do not believe that the MM dough is amenable to forming a large, bulbous rim without intentionally forming one in the skin as it is being opened up and shaped.

4. The Oven: I suggest that you use the lowest oven rack position and, if necessary, move the pizza to a higher oven rack position if you need more top crust color or to finish cooking the various toppings used on the pizza. You want to get as much bottom heat as possible to increase the oven spring, especially if the dough is as lowly hydrated as I have come to believe.

5. The Stone: I would place your pizza stone on the lowest oven rack position and preheat it for at least an hour. Have you ever measured the temperature of your stone just prior to loading a pizza onto it? I am not personally familiar with the Emile Henry “Flame” 14” Pizza Stone other than to note that one of our resident stone experts, scott123, was not impressed with it, as he so noted at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12382.msg121903.html#msg121903. However, I do not want to knock your stone without knowing much about it. If it turns out that your next MM experiment using that stone also produces unacceptable results, then you might try using a combination of a pizza screen and a stone, as I described in the PJ clone thread, to see if we can rule out the stone you are using as a probable cause of the results you recently achieved.

6. Sweetness of the Crust: This is something that will have to await your next experiment. Sweetness is a personal thing, and can vary widely from one person to another. I use very little sugar in my diet and, as a result, I can pick up the smallest amount of sugar in just about any food. You will have to rely on your own palate. However, I don’t think that the sugar (molasses) range will be wide even given the different tolerance to sugar levels.

7. Buying an MM Dough Ball: The reason I asked the question about buying an MM dough ball is because I think you can learn a lot from such a dough ball, at a fairly modest cost. For example, you can compare one of your doughs with such a dough ball, especially when it is defrosted, to see if the color is the same. And you can look to see if you detect fragments of wheat germ. You can also note the hydration of the defrosted MM dough ball in relation to one of yours. If you’d like, you can use only a part of the defrosted MM dough ball to make a pizza and save the rest for future comparisons. For example, if you use say, a half of the defrosted MM dough ball, which is  9 ounces, you can make a roughly 10” pizza with the same finished characteristics as a 14” MM pizza. The roughly 10” pizza won’t have the same finished characteristics (mainly in the thickness of the crust) as a real MM 10” pizza because the MM 10” pizza is based on a considerably higher thickness factor value.

For now, I will reserve suggesting changes to the MM clone dough formulation until I see how Norma makes out with her test dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 05:12:04 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #110 on: September 20, 2011, 05:10:27 PM »
Thanks for the advice!  I will consider it all during my next attempt on Sunday.

At this point I think the formulae are pretty good. .. my issues I think are more the fault of my methods than anything.

I'm definitely heading to MM tonight so I'm eager to ask questions and report back.  I will probably buy a 10'' ball. 

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #111 on: September 20, 2011, 09:56:33 PM »
The attempt at the Mellow Mushroom pizza went well today, but I don’t have any idea if the pizza Steve and I made tasted anything like a real Mellow Mushroom pizza.  The only problem I had was I forgot to use the cornmeal to coat the crust and used regular flour instead.  Steve and I had to make some more pies for customers, and I had the cornmeal on the shelf, so somehow I forgot to use it.

The dough ball didn’t look like it had fermented very much until this morning, so I took it out of the pizza prep refrigerator and left it at room temperature beside the oven for about 3 ½ hrs. to ferment more. The dough ball was very easy to open and a rim was formed before the skin was stretched out, and after the skin was stretched out, while it was on the peel.

I used part-skim mozzarella as the cheese, 6 oz. of my regular tomato sauce, and pepperoni that was baked in the oven on a pan and with a parchment paper to get rid of some of the grease in the pepperoni.  The baking the pepperoni in the oven on a pan, which the pepperoni was put on parchment paper, seemed to work out well.  The pizza after it was baked was brushed with garlic powder in melted butter, and then was sprinkled with Parmesan cheese.

The crust had a little sweet taste to it, but it wasn’t too sweet.  The rim was somewhat moist.  Steve, my taste testers and I enjoyed this different pizza.

Peter’s formula seemed to work out well.  Now, I just need a seeing eye person to know if my pizza looks anything like a M&M pizza and someone to be able to help me understand what a real M&M pizza tastes like.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:11:33 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2011, 10:00:30 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2011, 10:02:11 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #114 on: September 20, 2011, 10:04:20 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #115 on: September 20, 2011, 10:05:47 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #116 on: September 20, 2011, 10:08:24 PM »
Norma
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:13:18 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #117 on: September 20, 2011, 10:09:13 PM »
Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #118 on: September 20, 2011, 10:20:23 PM »
Norma,

Oustanding! The pies look awesome.

But how come the shreds of mozzarella look bigger, thicker and longer compared to what I get when I shred my cheese? It's your commercial Hobart grating attachment, isn't it?

It looks like it also melts much better. What type/brand of mozzarella are you using? Grande low-moisture?
Mike

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #119 on: September 20, 2011, 11:00:23 PM »
Norma,

Oustanding! The pies look awesome.

But how come the shreds of mozzarella look bigger, thicker and longer compared to what I get when I shred my cheese? It's your commercial Hobart grating attachment, isn't it?

It looks like it also melts much better. What type/brand of mozzarella are you using? Grande low-moisture?

Mike,

Thanks for your nice compliment, but I forgot the cornmeal to dip the dough ball in, and put the cornmeal on the peel.  I have no idea how a M&M real pizza tastes, but the attempt at a M&M pizza was good and the dough behaved well.

The part-skim mozzarella was grated with my Pelican head cheese grater yesterday.  The Pelican head grater attachments do come in different sizes to grate cheese.  The grater attachment was just one that came with the Pelican head.  The part-skin mozzarella I used was Foremost Farms part-skim mozzarella.  

Norma
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