Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[norma427]

Norma,

First to briefly update you on both of my simple experiments, the one in which I simply added some oil to water and the other in which I added some molasses and oil to water. In both cases, the oil rose to the top of the mixture and stayed there as a film. This morning, after freezing overnight, the oil had congealed in both containers. I had not measured the amounts of oil but presumably the oils would weigh the same, or nearly the same, upon removal.

I also dissected your 4.7-ounce (133-gram) MM clone dough on paper. It includes 79.6 grams of flour, 40.6 grams of water, 0.48 grams of IDY (about 1/6 teaspoon), 1.19 grams of salt, 1.96 grams of oil (0.43 teaspoon, or a bit shy of 1/2 teaspoon), and 9.16 grams of molasses. As noted, the oil comes to almost one-half teaspoon. Maybe the other layer you saw is the yeast. Or it might be ash or barley malt or minerals or particles of bran in some form, possibly in combination.

At this point, I think I would just try to remove the oil or whatever it is at the top of your container and weigh it if that is possible. You might then let that material defrost to see if it has the original color of the oil you used. Depending on what you find, we can assess whether this type of experiment is worth pursuing further.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for updating me on your two experiments with oil and water and the other with molasses, oil and water.  Good to hear your experiments went well.

Thanks also for dissecting my 4.7 ounce MM clone dough on paper to show what it included in amounts of ingredients in grams.  I will try to remove the substance that settled on the surface after freezing.  I think if I do this experiment again, I would let the mixture settle before trying to freeze.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I tried to scrap off what was on top of the frozen mixture the best I could with an X-ACTO knife and a metal measuring spoon. The weight of what I scrapped off was 2.08 grams.  I am now defrosting the whole frozen mass in the microwave and will see what it looks like later on today after I get home from market.  I did put the amount of 2.08 grams that I had scrapped back into the glass (or the little amount that I could not get off my scale and measuring spoon.  After the mixture is partly or all defrosted, I will stir what is left on the measuring spoon back into the top of the mixture.  All depending on what the contents look like after they are fully defrosted I might try to freeze again.  If you have any ideas of what to do let me know.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I neglected to ask you whether the oil you have been using is soybean oil, but if what you measured was oil, or mostly oil, at 2.09 grams, that would come to 0.46 teaspoon as compared with the calculated value of 0.43 teaspoon. That is very close. It would also be normal to see variations from one brand of oil to another. Also, the data for soybean oil used in the expanded dough calculating tool is based on generic soybean oil as derived from the SelfNutritionData website.

I also used the calculated 79.61 grams of KASL flour used in your 4.7-ounce (133 grams) MM clone dough ball and extrapolated the gluten mass for that dough ball (48.22 grams) to 6 ounces of KASL. The "adjusted" gluten mass from that calculation is 103.03 grams, or 3.634 ounces. If you compare that gluten mass value with the gluten mass value for the 6-ounce KASL version at Reply 1470 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg174615/topicseen.html#msg174615, you will see that it is lower. However, as we noted earlier, it would take a lot more tests and averaging the test results to get the best numbers. However, the 103.03 grams is still in the high-gluten range. So, someone conducting the gluten mass test in a bowl or other container would still be able to determine the type of flour (e.g., high-gluten, bread, all-purpose, etc.) used in a given dough. Usually, that will be good enough, at least as a start and subject to doing a lot more similar tests to get more accurate gluten mass values to zero in more closely on the flour type.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I neglected to ask you whether the oil you have been using is soybean oil, but if what you measured was oil, or mostly oil, at 2.09 grams, that would come to 0.46 teaspoon as compared with the calculated value of 0.43 teaspoon. That is very close. It would also be normal to see variations from one brand of oil to another. Also, the data for soybean oil used in the expanded dough calculating tool is based on generic soybean oil as derived from the SelfNutritionData website.

I also used the calculated 79.61 grams of KASL flour used in your 4.7-ounce (133 grams) MM clone dough ball and extrapolated the gluten mass for that dough ball (48.22 grams) to 6 ounces of KASL. The "adjusted" gluten mass from that calculation is 103.03 grams, or 3.634 ounces. If you compare that gluten mass value with the gluten mass value for the 6-ounce KASL version at Reply 1470 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg174615/topicseen.html#msg174615, you will see that it is lower. However, as we noted earlier, it would take a lot more tests and averaging the test results to get the best numbers. However, the 103.03 grams is still in the high-gluten range. So, someone conducting the gluten mass test in a bowl or other container would still be able to determine the type of flour (e.g., high-gluten, bread, all-purpose, etc.) used in a given dough. Usually, that will be good enough, at least as a start and subject to doing a lot more similar tests to get more accurate gluten mass values to zero in more closely on the flour type.

Peter

Peter,

The vegetable oil I have been using is called 1-2-3 vegetable oil from the General Dollar Store.  The ingredients are listed as canola oil, sunflower oil and TBHQ (an antioxidant)

Thanks for doing the calculation for the wet gluten mass and finding the “adjusted” gluten from my wet gluten mass test.  I see it is lower, but is still in the high-gluten territory. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

The vegetable oil I have been using is called 1-2-3 vegetable oil from the General Dollar Store.  The ingredients are listed as canola oil, sunflower oil and TBHQ (an antioxidant)

Norma,

The conversion factors are pretty much the same for all of the basic supermarket vegetable oils so the brand you have been using won't perturbate the numbers to any material degree. We really still don't know exactly what kind of oil MM is using but soybean oil would be my first guess based on its cost and the MM Nutrition Facts. Canola oil and sunflower oil are lower in saturated fats than soybean oil on an equal-volume basis. I don't believe that they can make the cut, as previously stated.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you don’t think it matters about the kind of vegetable oil I am using for the MM#7 clone doughs.  Maybe sometime I might purchase some soybean oil since you think it fits in with the MM Nutrition Facts.

I took a picture of the oil test before I went to market today.  When I returned from market, I checked on the oil test and there was some kind of foam or something else on top of the liquid. I couldn’t believe my eyes what the oil test was doing.   I sure don’t know what it is but it seems like the oil test is brewing.  I took it outside to get a video. The oil test is still bubbling after over an hour and a half. What do you think is happening that is making those bubbles in the oil test?  Do you think there might still be some yeast in the oil test? It least it appears that there might be some yeast left in the oil test.  I really wouldn’t know what else would make it bubble.  That really has me stumped.  I think some kind of Cosmic Karma is going on with the oil test.    Do you want me to freeze it again to do another oil test again on Wednesday?

This is the video of the oil test bubbling and the pictures of the oil test defrosted before and after market.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxN9Aq4NDGA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxN9Aq4NDGA</a>

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I did contact B&G Foods again the other day to see if I could get some more detailed specs on the Brer Rabbit Blackstrap Molasses and received an email from Marge today and this is what I asked in the email and what she replied.

Hi Marge,
Sorry to bother you again. Thanks for the spec for the Brer Rabbit Blackstrap Molasses. I had wanted to know if you had more detailed specs for the Brer Rabbit Baking Molasses. What I would like to know is what ash value there is (for color in the crust), Sucrose %, Invert, Brix%, and also total sugars%. If you can't give me that information, it is okay.
Thanks for the other spec sheet!

Norma

Marge replied:

Sorry, I do not have this info

I also got another email from Mitch Hertzler at Golden Barrel today giving me the specs again for the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses that Oscar had given me.  This is what I wrote and what Mitch replied.  I asked some more questions.  I don’t know if you want the specs for the Golden Barrel Sorghum Syrup but Mitch did send them to me.  I did include some pictures of the pizzas made with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.

Hello Norma,
Your pizza looks great. I would love to try it sometime.
Attached is the spec for our blackstrap molasses. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Mitch Hertzler
Quality Control Specialist
Good Food, Inc.

Mitch,
Thanks for the specs. Oscar also sent me the specs for the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses the other day. I am at Root's market outside of Manheim, Pa. If you ever visit there I will have some of the experiments I am doing. I also wanted to ask you another question. I don't see on your website that you just carry or sell plain cane juice syrup. Do you ever sell any of that and if you do in what amounts would I have to purchase to try it?
Thanks!
Norma

Norma,
When you say “cane juice syrup”, are you referring to cane juice molasses? If so, then Supreme Baking Molasses would be pretty much the same thing.
Syrup from the sugar cane stocks are boiled to take the sugar crystals out and molasses is what remains. We have never actually sold that sugar cane syrup and I am not aware of anyone else selling such a thing. The difference between a syrup and molasses is the amount of sugar that has been removed.
Mitch Hertzler
Quality Control Specialist
Good Food, Inc.

Mitch,
What I think I am referring to is cane juice molasses. I know your Supreme Baking Molasses would be pretty much the same thing. When I used the Supreme Baking Molasses in the formulation I had to use a higher enough amount (13-14%) to get the desired sweetness in the crust that I want, but then the dough is a little daker and crumb are a little too dark. Do you have the specs for just the cane juice so I could see what they are so maybe I can try to adjust one of my formulations? That is why I am now trying your blackstrap molasses with other sweeteners to try and achieve a lighter dough and crumb. I am doing that experiment tomorrow at market. The dough is lighter now, but I am not sure if I will be able to detect the right amount of sweetness in the crust. I will send those pictures either Wednesday or Thursday to let you know how that experiment worked out.
I sure am not clear on how sugar cane is manufactured, but thought sometimes they add sugar crystals back in somewhere in the manufacturing process. Like I said, I sure don’t know much about how sugar cane in then made into cane juice.

Thanks,
Norma

Here is a spec for our Supreme Baking Molasses. I am not sure if you had this yet or not. We do not have any molasses that is specifically called cane juice molasses per say.
From what I understand of the extraction process, Cane Juice (aka Fancy, Barbados, Baking) Molasses is left after the first boiling to remove sugar crystals. It is run 3 times and the final result is blackstrap molasses which is much less sweet as more sugar has been removed but is loaded with healthy nutrients and minerals. I am not aware of them adding any sugar back in at any of the steps unless the molasses is blended with another sweetener or grade of molasses.
The only other product that we have that would be similar would be sorghum syrup. It is the syrup extracted from the sorghum plant and is brownish in color and quite sweet. Some people refer to it as sorghum molasses but it does not actually meet the definition of a true molasses. It is also supposed to be a healthful sweetener.
I hope that you can figure out your formulations. I would love to stop by Root’s Market sometime.
Mitch Hertzler
Quality Control Specialist
Good Food, Inc.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I took a picture of the oil test before I went to market today.  When I returned from market, I checked on the oil test and there was some kind of foam or something else on top of the liquid. I couldn’t believe my eyes what the oil test was doing.   I sure don’t know what it is but it seems like the oil test is brewing.  I took it outside to get a video. The oil test is still bubbling after over an hour and a half. What do you think is happening that is making those bubbles in the oil test?  Do you think there might still be some yeast in the oil test? It least it appears that there might be some yeast left in the oil test.  I really wouldn’t know what else would make it bubble.  That really has me stumped.  I think some kind of Cosmic Karma is going on with the oil test.    Do you want me to freeze it again to do another oil test again on Wednesday?

Norma,

That is quite funny, yet interesting at the same time. I think what you are seeing is that the "broth" is fermenting. The warm water that you used to do the gluten mass part of the test was not hot enough to harm the yeast, so it is still in the broth and unharmed by the freezing process. Yeast can only metabolize simple sugars (monosaccharides). There are all kinds of sugars in your container to feed the yeast, including mono- and disaccharides in the flour and the molasses. Since the yeast acidifies the solution, invert sugars and sucrose can be converted to simple sugars (fructose and glucose) to feed the yeast, especially as the broth warms up. Eventually, gases of fermentation are produced, along with alcohol. I suspect it is the fermentation bubbles that are rising in the broth to the surface. You might let the broth ferment some more, to develop more alcohol, pour it off into a nice beer mug, cool it, and then serve it to Steve as your maiden effort to make beer .

Since you removed what appears to be the oil from the broth, I am not sure what value there is freezing it again. However, a repeat test with another MM clone dough sample might be useful to confirm the results of the most recent oil test. Unless you return to tell me that the oil mush you extracted from the frozen mass is not really oil, I would say that the oil freeze test has promise as a reverse engineering tool.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

That is quite funny, yet interesting at the same time. I think what you are seeing is that the "broth" is fermenting. The warm water that you used to do the gluten mass part of the test was not hot enough to harm the yeast, so it is still in the broth and unharmed by the freezing process. Yeast can only metabolize simple sugars (monosaccharides). There are all kinds of sugars in your container to feed the yeast, including mono- and disaccharides in the flour and the molasses. Since the yeast acidifies the solution, invert sugars and sucrose can be converted to simple sugars (fructose and glucose) to feed the yeast, especially as the broth warms up. Eventually, gases of fermentation are produced, along with alcohol. I suspect it is the fermentation bubbles that are rising in the broth to the surface. You might let the broth ferment some more, to develop more alcohol, pour it off into a nice beer mug, cool it, and then serve it to Steve as your maiden effort to make beer .

Since you removed what appears to be the oil from the broth, I am not sure what value there is freezing it again. However, a repeat test with another MM clone dough sample might be useful to confirm the results of the most recent oil test. Unless you return to tell me that the oil mush you extracted from the frozen mass is not really oil, I would say that the oil freeze test has promise as a reverse engineering tool.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me or anyone that is interested that what I am seeing is the “broth” is fermenting.  I know the warm water I used in the oil test wasn’t hot enough to kill the yeast, but knew some of the yeast probably was killed from the time I froze that dough ball.  I didn’t think about the kinds of sugars that were in the glass container to be able to feed the yeast.  I also never thought about the gases of fermentation being produced along with the alcohol.  So you think the bubbles rising to the surface are fermentation bubbles.  That is really interesting to hear.  Steve might really get a kick out of this oil experiment!  Wow, I can finally tell Steve this is my maiden voyage into making beer.  I can see him chuckling now.     I smelled the oil test and it does smell yeasty.  I sure would like to try that broth in a dough to see what happens.

I replaced the oil in the glass container, so it should still be there.  I posted that before.  Do you still want me to freeze the fermenting mixture to see what happens and if there is any oil to measure?  I can’t even see much oil now in the broth.  The bubbles are getting bigger, so that must mean the oil test is going full steam ahead. 

Maybe this week I will make a smaller MM#7 dough ball for another oil test.  Do you have any particular size dough ball for me to test again? 

I will just post the spec for the Golden Barrel Sorghum Syrup in case you or anyone else is interested.  I find it interesting that the spec says that the Sorghum Syrup is 100% natural.  It also says the Sorghum Syrup is one of the oldest natural sweeteners. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Since you reintroduced the oil back into the broth, I don't see any harm in refreezing everything, if only to see if the oil resurfaces and can be separated again. As for a future oil test, I would think that a 5-ounce MM clone dough ball would be a convenient size.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Since you reintroduced the oil back into the broth, I don't see any harm in refreezing everything, if only to see if the oil resurfaces and can be separated again. As for a future oil test, I would think that a 5-ounce MM clone dough ball would be a convenient size.

Peter

Peter,

I will refreeze the oil test again to see if I can see any oil on the frozen mixture and make a 5 ounce MM clone dough ball later this week.  I guess I won’t need to freeze the next dough ball for the oil test.  Maybe I will use some of my Crisco oil in the next MM#7 dough ball for oil test.

Norma

[norma427]

The MM #8 clone formulation pizza worked out well and tasted and looked almost like the MM #7 clone dough formulation using different molasses products.  The only difference I noticed was it was a little bit less sweet in the  crumb, but I thought the taste in sweetness was more in line with a MM pizza.  The crumb was also lighter in color than some of my MM #7 clone crumbs were.  

Congrats Peter, you did it again formulating another great tasting MM clone pizza with the Golden Cane Juice Syrup and the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses! 

This morning I checked on the oil test that was frozen again and it looked like the oil had risen to the top.  I didn’t have time to try and scrap the oil off the top and weigh it this morning, but I will tomorrow morning.  These are the two pictures of the oil in the top of the drinking glass I took this morning.

Norma

[norma427]

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[norma427]

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[Pete-zza]

The MM #8 clone formulation pizza worked out well and tasted and looked almost like the MM #7 clone dough formulation using different molasses products.  The only difference I noticed was it was a little bit less sweet in the  crumb, but I thought the taste in sweetness was more in line with a MM pizza.  The crumb was also lighter in color than some of my MM #7 clone crumbs were.  

Congrats Peter, you did it again formulating another great tasting MM clone pizza with the Golden Cane Juice Syrup and the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses! 

Norma,

I'm glad that the MM#8 clone dough formulation worked out well for you. I felt confident about the likelihood of success, because the numbers for MM#8 made for a good fit, but I wasn't certain about the degree of sweetness or the final crust color. I thought the sucrose equivalency numbers suggested detectable sweetness but I had no way of knowing what the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses would do in terms of color when combined with the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup, which itself imparts some color. I know that your supply of the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup is somewhat limited, but it should be possible to both increase the sweetness and the color to get them closer to a real MM dough. You would be the principal beneficiary of such changes, since you are most likely the only member to have a supply of the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup. However, if you would like to try a version of MM#8 with more Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup (for more sweetness) and more color (more Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses), to either offer at market or to use up your existing supply of the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup, I may be able to come up with an improved MM#8.

I know that you have made only one MM#8 clone pizza, but can you compare it with the many MM#7 clone pizzas you have made?

I think the main value of the MM#8 experiment is that it confirms that there are many ways to skin the cat. No doubt, there are many MM clone dough formulations that will work. But there are also many that will not if the objective is to get the same sweetness and color of an MM crust. And the MM clone dough formulations that are most likely to do the best are those that meet the set of numbers I have come up with to evaluate prospective MM clones, including the 40% hydration number, the other hydration numbers, and the values and amounts of ingredients that fit the MM Nutrition Facts. In this vein, I might add that I have recently been playing around with the nutrition facts calculator at the SelfNutritionData website, and now believe that there may be less oil than we have been testing. There is also more salt but I have known this for some time and only chose to use less in order to emphasize the sweetness over the saltiness. I should hasten to add that the differences are unlikely to be detectable. So, such changes will not produce a night and day difference. It is also still possible that the numbers may still need more tweaking only because the database used by SelfNutritionData does not contain some of the ingredients we have been testing.

Peter