Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 210733 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #200 on: September 30, 2011, 11:52:31 AM »
Norma,

When I was researching the different MM stores, I came across the same videos. One of them, at , I discussed recently at Reply 124 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg153973/topicseen.html#msg153973, and I referenced the Montague ovens at Reply 77 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg153408/topicseen.html#msg153408. In the various videos, I saw a mix of the Montague ovens and the Blodgett ovens. The Montague pizza ovens also come in a steel deck option although I believe that the MM stores use the standard stone versions. If someone wants to emulate a Montague two-stone oven in a home setting, they might use two stones but preheat them long enough so that they are both at about the same temperature.

Peter


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #201 on: September 30, 2011, 01:26:19 PM »
Norma,

I didnít want to slow you down, so I went back to the original MM#1 dough formulation as given at Reply 67 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg152958.html#msg152958 and modified it to use the ADM SWEET'NíNEAT 4000 dry molasses powder (ADM 4000 DMP). I am calling the modified dough formulation ďMM#1 DMPĒ. BTW, the ADM 4000 DMP product does not include the maltodextrin and, hence, would meet the MM requirement that the dough contain no refined sugars (although arguably maltodextrin is not a ďsugarĒ from a nutrition labeling standpoint). I elected not to follow the recommended range of use of the ADM 4000 DMP because doing so would have resulted in a bakerís percent of about 8.5-17% when based on the weight of the formula flour (the blend of high-gluten flour and wheat germ), which would be excessive. Clearly, the ADM 4000 DMP was not intended for the type of application we have been exploring in this thread.

I donít know how the ADM 4000 DMP will affect the dough and crust coloration but if it behaves like its liquid counterpart, I think that the dough and finished crust could take on too dark a color if too much of it is used (see more on this below). If you would like to have a color benchmark against which to compare your ADM 4000 DMP dough against a real MM dough, you might take a look again at the video that you recently referenced at . I think that video more closely shows the color of the MM dough than the other videos I looked at, especially when contrasted against the white countertop and the wooden peel. I realize that it is difficult to accurately judge color from a video and from a monitor, but if I were to look for the desired dough color, I would use a brown coffee filter to match the color of your ADM 4000 DMP dough against a real MM dough. If I had to guess, I would say that when using the liquid form of molasses, and with wheat germ at around 2-4%, the color of the dough perhaps starts to darken too much when the level of usage of the liquid molasses exceeds about 5%, or maybe a bit more. I donít know if that would also hold true for the dry molasses. Since you would be using 4.5% dry molasses, you might well not cross over the color threshold. It shouldnít be fatal if you end up with a darker dough, however. What ultimately matters is the sweetness and flavor of the finished crust and whether it is pleasurable to eat.

For a color photo showing the MM dough, see http://www.independentmail.com/photos/2011/apr/18/89471/. As you can see there, the dough does not appear to be particularly dark in color.

You will also note froom the MM#1 DMP dough formulation, I left the IDY at 0.60%. You should feel free to change that depending on how you plan to use the dough from a fermentation period standpoint and whether you will temper the dough next to your oven as you did before, etc. Changing the amount of IDY to suit your particular purposes should not materially affect the values for the other ingredients.

Plugging all of the numbers into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the MM#1 DMP clone dough formulation as set forth below. You will note that in the dough formulation I deleted the volume measurements for the dry molasses powder. Perhaps at some point you can do some weighings of the ADM 4000 DMP to be able to convert from weight to volume. Also, for purposes of the MM#1 DMP formulation, I increased the amount of water by about half of the weight of the ADM 4000 DMP used, rather than by a hundred percent (an option that is noted in the ADM spec sheet). There may be some other differences in the original and the present dough formulation because of the way the original formulation was modified to permit the substitution of the ADM 4000 DMP, but those differences should be fairly minor.

MM#1 DMP Clone Dough Formulation
Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%):
Spring Water (57.25%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
ADM 4000 DMP (4.5%):
Total (168.35%):
307.66 g  |  10.85 oz | 0.68 lbs
176.14 g  |  6.21 oz | 0.39 lbs
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
6.15 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
12.31 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.71 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
13.84 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs
517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684
* The Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend comprises 298.4 grams (10.53 ounces) of unbleached (unbromated) high-gluten flour and 9.23 grams (0.33 ounces) of wheat germ, based on a ratio of 97% high-gluten flour and 3% wheat germ.
Note: The nominal thickness factor = 0.11693 and corresponds to a dough ball weight of 18 ounces, for a single 14Ē pizza; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 05:16:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #202 on: September 30, 2011, 02:02:48 PM »
The amount of sauce I was using probably was the wrong amount.  When you have time to think all this over in your next iteration for a formula, I would appreciate if you could post how much sauce you think Biz and I should use, or for anyone that is interested in trying the formulas you set-forth.  

Norma,

Based on what I have seen in the videos where Spoodle-like portioners are used, I believe that the portioners have a 6-ounce capacity and that only a single portioner is used for all MM pizzas, irrespective of size. For example, where portioners were shown in the videos, I did not see several of them with different bowl capacities.

To come up with some recommended values of pizza sauce for the different pizza sizes, I relied on the article that I previously found at http://www.nbcdfw.com/the-scene/food-drink/Mellow-Mushrooms-House-Special-Recipe.html (see Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg149709.html#msg149709). In that article, instructions are given to make a 10" pizza using 12 ounces of dough, which is the correct amount of dough for a 10" pizza, 3 ounces of pizza sauce, and 4 ounces of shredded mozzarella cheese. The 3 ounces of sauce would seem to fit what is shown in the earlier referenced video at where about a half of the capacity of the portioner is used to make a 10" pizza. If the 3 ounces of pizza sauce is correct for the 10" size pizza, then the amounts of sauce that would be needed for a 14" pizza and a 16" pizza are as follows (if we assume that the amounts of sauce are intended to be proportional based on the surface areas of the pizzas):

14": 3 x 49/25 = 5.88 ounces, or rounded out to 6 ounces (by volume)
16": 3 x 64/25 = 7.68 ounces, or rounded out to 8 ounces (by volume)

I believe that in pizzerias the amount of sauce is held constant on a given pizza irrespective of what else goes onto the pizza. If I am wrong here, then the above values would change. But I believe that they would hold for a basic cheese pizza.

The same calculations can be done for the shredded mozzarella cheese. If 4 ounces of shredde mozzarella cheese is correct for a 10" pizza, then the corresponding amounts for 14" and 16" pizzas, with all else being equal, would be:

14": 4 x 49/25 = 7.84 ounces, or rounded out to 8 ounces (presumably by weight)
16": 4 x 64/25 = 10.24 ounces, or rounded out to 10 ounces (presumably by weight)

I don't know what the rules are for amounts of cheese based on what else is on the pizza. However, for the 10" pepperoni pizza I tried in Florida, it seemed that there wasn't a great deal of cheese on the pizza. So, the above numbers may be on the high side. The MM pizzas that I have seen in videos also seem to be light on the cheese.

For number of pepperoni slices, I would suggest the following number of slices be used for the different pizza sizes:

10": 11 pepperoni slices
14": 11 x 49/25 = 21.56 slices, or rounded out to 22 pepperoni slices
16": 11 x 64/25 = 40.96 slices, or rounded out to 41 pepperoni slices

I don't know what brand of pepperoni slices MM uses, but I read an item recently that said that a particular MM store was going with Boars Head meats. A Boars Head pepperoni would be a good choice from what I have read.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the above numbers. They are my best estimates based on what I have read and seen in the videos. One might be able to get actual values, or information to calculate better values, by buying basic baked MM pizzas, like a plain pizza or a pepperoni pizza, and weighing them.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 08:34:45 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #203 on: September 30, 2011, 06:41:22 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for going to all the work of figuring out how to use the ADM 4000 DMP, in the MA#1 DMP formula.  I can understand why you didnít elect to follow the recommended range of use of the ADM 4000 DMP because the bakerís percent would have been too high, when based on the weight of the formula flour blend. 

I probably will try a two day ferment again with the MA#1 DMP formula, so I will decrease the yeast some.  I like the color of the dough in my last two attempts, but donít know what the ADM 4000 DMP will do to the dough color.  The one thing that has me concerned is the ADM 4000 DMP does have a more bitter taste than the Brer Rabbit mild molasses. I wonder how that will affect the sweetness in the final pizza crust. 

I trust you instincts on how much water to add, since the ADM 4000 DMP is being used in the MA# DMP formula. 

Thanks for posting how much sauce, mozzarella, and pepperoni you recommend for different size pizzas, if anyone wants to try an attempt at an MM pizza. I would like to try more toppings on my next attempt, but will probably either only go with cheese, or maybe pepperoni as I did in my last two attempts.

Norma

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #204 on: September 30, 2011, 08:26:10 PM »
I mixed up a dough this evening for use on Sunday night.

I started with the MM#2 formula as a starting point.  After my last attempt using MM#1, I wanted to make some fairly aggressive changes in order to address the lack of sweetness/heavy wheat germ flavor and the soft, bready crumb texture.

MM#2 already had some modifications to address the softness, so I left those mostly unchanged.

The biggest change I made was dropping the Wheat Germ to 2% of the flour weight (for some reason I prefer to breakout the germ as a separate item so that I can see it better for comparison).  By comparison using this calculation, the Textbook MM#2 has the Germ at 4.22% (if I did the math right).

Here's what I came up with, expressed in the format Peter has been using:

Biz's Modded MM#2 Formula - Pete-zza format
High Gluten Flour/Germ Blend = 100%
Spring Water = 52.94%
IDY = 0.37%
Salt = 1.96%
Soybean Oil = 2.94%
Liquid Molasses = 4.90%
TOTAL = 163.113%
** The Flour amount used was 11.57 ounces, and untoasted wheat germ 0.2314oz or 1.96% of the total weight of the blend.

Biz's Modded MM#2 Formula - Full Baker's Percent
High Gluten Flour = 100%
Wheat Germ = 2.0%
Spring Water = 54.0%
IDY = 0.37%
Salt = 2.0%
Soybean Oil = 3.0%
Liquid Molasses = 5.0%
TOTAL = 166.37%

I went with a 19.25oz ball for this attempt, which is more than a normal 14'' pizza but I like a little extra crust. . it's my favorite part!

I mixed the water, molasses, salt, and oil together before adding the flour and germ.  Usually I reserve the IDY until the third minute of mixing (a method mentioned in the PJ Clone thread, I believe), but this time I stirred it into the flour and germ before adding to the wet ingredients in the Zojirushi.
I mixed it in the Zo for 8 minutes.

The ball was noticeably firmer than all my previous MM clone attempts, which was a good sign.  Not to say the dough was firm, just drier and less sticky than the previous runs.

I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.  Feel free to critique anything above.  Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #205 on: September 30, 2011, 08:39:18 PM »
The one thing that has me concerned is the ADM 4000 DMP does have a more bitter taste than the Brer Rabbit mild molasses. I wonder how that will affect the sweetness in the final pizza crust. 

Norma,

Since the liquid component of the molasses has been removed when dried, you might take an amount of the ADM 4000 DMP and add water in an amount that is half the weight of the ADM 4000 DMP and taste it for sweetness and to see if it tastes like liquid molasses. You can repeat the test with an equal weight of water. These two tests would cover the full range of rehydration mentioned in the ADM specs.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #206 on: September 30, 2011, 09:02:20 PM »
Biz,

I was thinking along the same lines as you except I was thinking of reducing the amount of oil even further. I do not believe that there is a lot of wheat germ in the MM flour blend but what wheat germ there is has most likely been ground into a flour-like consistency so as not to be visible in the dough or finished crust and may be Vitamin-E enriched (which suggests a toasted wheat germ product). I also believe that the molasses is mainly to color the dough and crust so that the crust appears to be a more healthy and wholesome food item (like a whole-wheat crust), and using a low hydration creates the effect of a more robust dough and a crust with substance. I think the heart of the dough is plain old white high-gluten flour that can be used with a relatively low hydration so as to produce an idiot-proof dough with great handling characteristics that anyone can work with. What I am most concerned about at the moment is that you and Norma have not detected a pronounced sweetness in the crust, even with molasses levels at around 5%. I have some theories on this but I will reserve comment until I see your results and Norma's results using the dry molasses powder.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #207 on: September 30, 2011, 09:45:55 PM »
Thanks for the info, Peter!

As somewhat of a beginner, I wasn't sure what to do with the Oil % so I didn't do much to it. 

I am very perturbed by the sweetness issue.  The first "guesstimation" formula I made did taste quite sweet - in fact, at the time we thought too sweet (but we had not tasted a real MM crust in quite a while at that point in time).  But last week's MM#1 attempt was not noticeably sweet.  The only difference was that my initial guesstimate used only 1.75% wheat germ (to flour weight) and just a hint more molasses.
So my thinking was that the increased germ in the MM#1, as compared to my guesstimate formula, masked the sweetness.  That may not be accurate, but that's what led me to reduce the germ in my most recent attempt.

P.S. In my last attempt and the current dough I used germ that I ground in my coffee grinder, but I'm sure it's not to the fineness of a commercial product.

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #208 on: September 30, 2011, 09:48:36 PM »
Norma,

Since the liquid component of the molasses has been removed when dried, you might take an amount of the ADM 4000 DMP and add water in an amount that is half the weight of the ADM 4000 DMP and taste it for sweetness and to see if it tastes like liquid molasses. You can repeat the test with an equal weight of water. These two tests would cover the full range of rehydration mentioned in the ADM specs.

Peter

Peter,

I just did take 2 grams of ADM 4000 DMP and added one gram of water.  It was like paste and still tasted bitter.  I then took 2 grams of ADM 4000 DMP and added 2 grams of water.  It was still wasnít liquid and still was bitter.  I tasted the Brer Rabbit molasses in between each test and the Brer Rabbit tastes great compared to the tests samples.  I think the test samples taste more like full flavored Brer Rabbit molasses.  I have never tasted Brer Rabbit blackstrap molasses plain in a taste test, (only in recipes) so I donít know how my test samples compare to the blackstrap Brer Rabbit molasses.   I had replied to Bizís one post where he said he thought his molasses tasted twangy/bitter, and I had posted I thought the Brer Rabbit molasses was twangy, but not bitter.  I donít know if I am headed in the right direction if I use the ADM 4000 DMP in getting a crust that did taste somewhat like my last two attempts.  

Norma



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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #209 on: September 30, 2011, 10:50:56 PM »
Norma,

How can a product called SWEET'N'NEAT not be sweet? Also, if you look at the nutrition profile for liquid blackstrap molasses at http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=85, you will see that the two major components are sugars and water.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #210 on: September 30, 2011, 11:16:17 PM »
Norma,

How can a product called SWEET'N'NEAT not be sweet? Also, if you look at the nutrition profile for liquid blackstrap molasses at http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=85, you will see that the two major components are sugars and water.

Peter

Peter,

Donít even ask me how a product called SWEETíNíNEAT canít be sweet.  I know my taste buds are probably different than yours or other members, but the SWEETíNíNEAT product sure isnít sweet.  I wonder if the sales rep you talked to might have not know what kind of flavor profile you wanted to achieve.  If you look at the products ADM sells in dry molasses at http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/drysweeteners/Pages/Molasses.aspx  some of the other dry molasses powders provide a milder flavor.  It also says at the ADM website that the SWEETíNíNEAT does provide maximum flavor.  I sure donít know if that means bitter or something else.  I know when I talked to John at http://www.maltproducts.com/products.molasses.html He told me that their dry molasses would be bitter tasting, because it was made to taste like blackstrap molasses.  Did you ever taste blackstrap molasses?  Even in recipes I have tried with blackstrap molasses I had to add sugar, or I would think the flavor would have been bitter in the finished baked product.  Isnít each kind of molasses boiled down more to then produce a stronger flavor?

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #211 on: October 01, 2011, 08:10:58 AM »
To follow up on my last post in this pdf.sheet http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/food/sweeteners/Documents/ADM%20Dry%20Sweeteners%20Sales%20Sheet.pdf if looked at it says that Dri-Mol 604 dry molasses powder is made from a light-colored molasses to provide a milder flavor.  The Dri-Mol molasses dry powder is made from pure blackstrap molasses to impart a rich, darker color. The sheet also says SWEETíNíNEAT provides maximum flavor and color. 

I have been trying to understand how molasses is made, and what are the different kinds of molasses, since some kind of molasses is being used in the MMĎs dough.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molasses
Some history of molasses.  http://www.madehow.com/Volume-5/Molasses.html

If I had thought about it yesterday, I would have brought my pH meter home from market to test the differences in the acidic content of the mild flavored Brer Rabbit molasses to the acidic content of the ADM 4000 DMP, when mixed with water.  I donít have any idea if that would have shown different acidic contents are not, but would find that information interesting.

I have read a few things on the web that tells that molasses is also a fermenting medium, when used with yeast.  On the Home Distiller Forum GingerBreadMan documented his ferment with blackstrap molasses and fancy molasses. http://www.homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6975  There are also videos on YouTube like this one, 
showing two kinds of molasses fermenting, one being fancy molasses and one being blackstrap molasses.  Since reading some about how molasses helps to ferment, that makes me wonder if somehow the molasses added to dough does also change  pizza dough somehow.

I did a little experiment this morning, to see what the ADM 4000 DMP looks and tastes like when 1 gram of ADM 4000 DMP was mixed with 5 grams of water.  This is what the ADM 4000 DMP looks like, after being mixed. The ADM 4000 DMP isnít easily mixed with water.  I also poured 6 grams of Brer Rabbit mild flavored molasses into the same measuring container.  I tasted both and although they both have a molasses taste, there is a difference in how bitter the ADM 4000 DMP mixed with water tastes, and even looks, compared to the Brer Rabbit mild flavored molasses. 

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #212 on: October 01, 2011, 09:41:41 AM »
Norma,

Another simple test that you could conduct--which would be strictly a color test--is to take the baker's percents I gave you in Reply 201 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg154992.html#msg154992 and make a mini-dough ball but leave out the yeast and salt. I would retain the oil for any color contribution it may have. You will have to replace 3% of the high-gluten flour with your toasted pulverized wheat germ. The wheat germ would be retained solely for its color contribution. If the amount of dough is too small to make by machine, you can use hand kneading.

If you end up with a dough ball that has a color much darker than a brown coffee filter, or a brown supermarket paper bag if you don't have a brown coffee filter, I think it would be safe to say that MM may not be using a dry molasses powder, or at least not one like the one you have or in a quantity as high as 4.5%. If the dry molasses powder passes the color test but you are still concerned that it might not contribute enough sweetness, then you could just add about 4% honey to the dough you were planning to make for your next test. I would just add the honey and not worry about the baker's percents. That can be patched up later if the experiment works. I would think that with 4.5% dry molasses powder and 4% honey, you should be able to detect notieceable sweetness in the finished crust. I mentioned honey intentionally because I wonder whether MM is using a natural sweetener in its dough besides the molasses to give more sweetness than the molasses can deliver all by itself. Like Biz, in my research on MM I found references to honey but it was by diners or by authors of articles on MM who perhaps thought that the sweetness they detected was honey, not molasses. I have never found any reference attributable to MM itself that honey, or possibly some other natural sweetener, is used in its dough. Quite often, that kind of information is leaked out over time by workers or former workers.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #213 on: October 01, 2011, 10:08:48 AM »
Norma,

Another simple test that you could conduct--which would be strictly a color test--is to take the baker's percents I gave you in Reply 201 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg154992.html#msg154992 and make a mini-dough ball but leave out the yeast and salt. I would retain the oil for any color contribution it may have. You will have to replace 3% of the high-gluten flour with your toasted pulverized wheat germ. The wheat germ would be retained solely for its color contribution. If the amount of dough is too small to make by machine, you can use hand kneading.

If you end up with a dough ball that has a color much darker than a brown coffee filter, or a brown supermarket paper bag if you don't have a brown coffee filter, I think it would be safe to say that MM may not be using a dry molasses powder, or at least not one like the one you have or in a quantity as high as 4.5%. If the dry molasses powder passes the color test but you are still concerned that it might not contribute enough sweetness, then you could just add about 4% honey to the dough you were planning to make for your next test. I would just add the honey and not worry about the baker's percents. That can be patched up later if the experiment works. I would think that with 4.5% dry molasses powder and 4% honey, you should be able to detect notieceable sweetness in the finished crust. I mentioned honey intentionally because I wonder whether MM is using a natural sweetener in its dough besides the molasses to give more sweetness than the molasses can deliver all by itself. Like Biz, in my research on MM I found references to honey but it was by diners or by authors of articles on MM who perhaps thought that the sweetness they detected was honey, not molasses. I have never found any reference attributable to MM itself that honey, or possibly some other natural sweetener, is used in its dough. Quite often, that kind of information is leaked out over time by workers or former workers.

Peter

Peter,

I donít have time today to do the simple test you posted about, but will do the test tomorrow morning.  I might even add the yeast and salt, but up the yeast amount to an emergency dough, so the dough could be baked in a few hrs.  What yeast amount would you recommend if I wanted to make the dough and then bake the pizza in a few hrs.?  I probably only will make a 6Ē pizza.  If the pizza then wouldnít match the sweetness test, I could then make a dough for Tuesday with the added honey amount you posted.  I find it interesting that you now mentioned that honey might be used in combination with molasses in a MM dough.  I know Biz had wondered about that, and I also had thought about why all the molasses added didnít give any sweeter taste in the crust. At least if I do the test in baking a pizza, I should be able to note the final color and sweetness.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #214 on: October 01, 2011, 01:17:38 PM »
I might even add the yeast and salt, but up the yeast amount to an emergency dough, so the dough could be baked in a few hrs.  What yeast amount would you recommend if I wanted to make the dough and then bake the pizza in a few hrs.?

Norma,

At one point I thought to suggest an emergency dough, but it was mainly to see if the sugar levels in the dough would be more pronounced inasmuch as the frozen MM dough balls get very little fermentation time, specifically, as they slack off in the cooler and then during the temper time. I would suggest around 0.90% IDY, to be sure that the rather stiff dough can get a faster rise.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #215 on: October 01, 2011, 02:11:34 PM »
Norma,

At one point I thought to suggest an emergency dough, but it was mainly to see if the sugar levels in the dough would be more pronounced inasmuch as the frozen MM dough balls get very little fermentation time, specifically, as they slack off in the cooler and then during the temper time. I would suggest around 0.90% IDY, to be sure that the rather stiff dough can get a faster rise.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your suggestion to use around 0.90% IDY for the emergency MM dough for tomorrow.  I thought once we get the sweetness okay in the crust, and got the dough to stretch out something like MM's, then I would try to make two doughs balls and freeze one to see what would happen, something like MM does in their commissary's.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 08:47:12 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #216 on: October 02, 2011, 10:25:57 AM »
I find it interesting that you now mentioned that honey might be used in combination with molasses in a MM dough.  I know Biz had wondered about that, and I also had thought about why all the molasses added didnít give any sweeter taste in the crust.

Norma,

As I mentioned before, I did not find any credible evidence to suggest that MM is using honey it its dough, so I am not prepared at this time to make that leap. You might find it interesting that when I did a search related to the sweetness of the MM pizza crusts, I found expressions like "sweet", "slightly sweet" and "almost sweet". Of course, that could reflect different sensitivities to sweetness. I would have described the MM crust I ate as "sweet". 

As I see it, MM is perhaps not using a great deal of molasses, just enough to give the dough the desired color (not too light and not too dark) and to keep the bottom of the finished crust from getting too dark. The amount of molasses should also be enough to give sweetness to the finished crust. In my past experiments, I found that it took around 4-5% sugar in the dough to get the sensation of sweetness in the finished crust. Tom Lehmann once pegged that value at 3-5% or more, as you will note from his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9093&p=62165&hilit=#p62165. To equate molasses to sugar on that basis, it might take a bit more molasses (liquid) because it is said to be less sweet than ordinary table sugar. But one of the things that I found interesting is that I could more readily detect sweetness in the finished crust when the dough was not allowed to ferment for too long, with an emergency dough being one such example. I discussed this aspect a few times on the forum, for example, at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5491.msg46448/topicseen.html#msg46448, at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27493/topicseen.html#msg27493 and at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3146.msg26843/topicseen.html#msg26843.

It is for the reasons noted in the above posts that I am interested in seeing the results for your emergency dough. If you think about it, if a frozen MM dough ball is allowed to defrost for only one day before using, the finished crust might be sweeter because of the minimal fermentation as the dough ball defrosts than if the dough is given a second day in the cooler or refrigerator. In the video that we both found earlier, at , the owner/manager of the MM store says that there is a "touch of molasses" and a "hint" of sweetness in the crust, and that the process is a two-day process. Maybe the two days of refrigeration reduces the amount of residual sugar in the dough such that the finished crust has diminished sweetness. In your prior experiments using two days of cold fermentation, your doughs would get multiples of the fermentation of a defrosting/defrosted dough ball held in the cooler for one or two days.

Peter


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #217 on: October 02, 2011, 12:13:14 PM »
Norma,

As I mentioned before, I did not find any credible evidence to suggest that MM is using honey it its dough, so I am not prepared at this time to make that leap. You might find it interesting that when I did a search related to the sweetness of the MM pizza crusts, I found expressions like "sweet", "slightly sweet" and "almost sweet". Of course, that could reflect different sensitivities to sweetness. I would have described the MM crust I ate as "sweet".  

As I see it, MM is perhaps not using a great deal of molasses, just enough to give the dough the desired color (not too light and not too dark) and to keep the bottom of the finished crust from getting too dark. The amount of molasses should also be enough to give sweetness to the finished crust. In my past experiments, I found that it took around 4-5% sugar in the dough to get the sensation of sweetness in the finished crust. Tom Lehmann once pegged that value at 3-5% or more, as you will note from his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9093&p=62165&hilit=#p62165. To equate molasses to sugar on that basis, it might take a bit more molasses (liquid) because it is said to be less sweet than ordinary table sugar. But one of the things that I found interesting is that I could more readily detect sweetness in the finished crust when the dough was not allowed to ferment for too long, with an emergency dough being one such example. I discussed this aspect a few times on the forum, for example, at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5491.msg46448/topicseen.html#msg46448, at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27493/topicseen.html#msg27493 and at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3146.msg26843/topicseen.html#msg26843.

It is for the reasons noted in the above posts that I am interested in seeing the results for your emergency dough. If you think about it, if a frozen MM dough ball is allowed to defrost for only one day before using, the finished crust might be sweeter because of the minimal fermentation as the dough ball defrosts than if the dough is given a second day in the cooler or refrigerator. In the video that we both found earlier, at , the owner/manager of the MM store says that there is a "touch of molasses" and a "hint" of sweetness in the crust, and that the process is a two-day process. Maybe the two days of refrigeration reduces the amount of residual sugar in the dough such that the finished crust has diminished sweetness. In your prior experiments using two days of cold fermentation, your doughs would get multiples of the fermentation of a defrosting/defrosted dough ball held in the cooler for one or two days.

Peter

Peter,

I also saw how different people describe MMís pizza crust in different sweetness levels.  I know you are sensitive to sweetness levels, so your information about how you perceived sweetness in their crust as "sweet" is interesting.  I would have thought that MMís curst would have been too "sweet" for you.  Maybe it was the other toppings, or the garlic butter and Parmesan cheese that made the difference.  To Steve, me and the taste testers, in my attempts the sweetness was just right in our opinions, but then none of us have ever tried a real MMís pizza.  I would have liked to have a little less softer crust though.

Thanks for the references to your link about how sugar in a short time fermentation can give the crust more sweetness.  I know I did read some of your posts before about that, but never really thought about those posts I read.  

I also did see your post to Tom Lehmann about blast freezing a dough and static freezing and what the results would be.  I would guess that was for this thread, but donít know.

You are right again, if I think about it, the one day dough ball used for a pizza might be sweeter in taste because of the minimal fermentation as the dough ball defrosts. I can understand why you want to see how my emergency dough ball tastes in terms of sweetness in the crust, when it is baked.

The dough was the 6Ē pizza was mixed by hand with the ADM 4000 DMP.  The dough ball looks darker than my previous dough balls.  These pictures really donít show the color of the dough ball, but on one picture I put the dough ball on a paper bag.  It is a little darker than a paper bag.  I wonder if I can just bake the dough today to see if it tastes sweet at all without adding dressings. Do you think I should add dressings?

I know you found no reference for honey in MMís doughs, but just thought I would throw this into the mix.

I wonder since MM does have the option of  cinnamon and honey on their pretzels http://www.mellowmushroom.com/augusta/menu/munchies  if that also might mean that do use honey in their dough.  I also wonder what mountain honey is. http://www.realdealsnow.com/biz/pics/menus/mellowmushroom.html  Maybe it is esparanza honey (but I never heard of esparanza honey), listed under the pretzels.  http://m.allmenus.com/fl/gainesville/49674-mellow-mushroom/menu/
Lists of ingreidents for menu items at MMĎs. http://quizlet.com/3893024/mellow-mushroom-menu-flash-cards/

The above probably doesnít apply.

MM's new Home Grown Harvest Pie also sounds good on Facebook.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #218 on: October 02, 2011, 01:08:09 PM »
Peter,

I had one quick question to ask you about.  I just looked though my ďhoardersĒ flour cupboards, and though all my flours, and I donít have any corn meal here at home.  Do you think I should just go with making the small attempted MMís pizza without any flour, or use Bobís Red Mill semolina flour to coat the dough ball?  All my cornmeal is at market.  I am soon ready to make the pizza with topping.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #219 on: October 02, 2011, 01:18:11 PM »
Norma,

In the questions I posed to Tom Lehmann in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15785.0.html, I had Mellow Mushroom in mind but wanted to pose the questions generically. My thinking was that if the front end of the dough making process could be the normal one, and the dough balls would be used fairly soon after making, perhaps there would not be as great a need to use more yeast in the dough. That led me to wonder if static freezing could be used in lieu of flash freezing. From what Tom said, maybe MM has enough stores to justify flash freezing equipment. Flash freezing freezes the dough balls faster and that is perhaps an effective way to prevent the dough balls from starting to ferment. Maybe it even helps retain the molasses a little bit better to contribute to the sweetness of the finished crust.

As far as your 6" test pizza is concerned, I think I would treat it like any other pizza in terms of toppings. That way you can see if something else might add sweetness to the slices. You don't have to do anything fancy, maybe a little sauce, cheese and a single topping. If you try to bake the pizza without anything on it, it might balloon up like a pita.

When I was doing my searching on the possible use of honey at MM, I got several hits on the use of honey on the pretzels. However, just because honey is used at the store level on pretzels does not suggest that they are also using honey back at the commissary where the dough is made. They are two different uses for honey.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #220 on: October 02, 2011, 01:20:16 PM »
I had one quick question to ask you about.  I just looked though my ďhoardersĒ flour cupboards, and though all my flours, and I donít have any corn meal here at home.  Do you think I should just go with making the small attempted MMís pizza without any flour, or use Bobís Red Mill semolina flour to coat the dough ball?  All my cornmeal is at market.  I am soon ready to make the pizza with topping.

Norma,

I think I would go with the semolina. It is not the same as cornmeal, of course, but the color is about the same and it might have an effect on the color of the bottom of the crust that is similar to what cornmeal might do.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #221 on: October 02, 2011, 02:44:46 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with the semolina. It is not the same as cornmeal, of course, but the color is about the same and it might have an effect on the color of the bottom of the crust that is similar to what cornmeal might do.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít see you post because I already started making the pizza, so I just went ahead and use semolina flour to coat the dough ball and peel.  The small dough ball seemed okay to open and didnít seem nearly as wet as my dough ball did on Tuesday.  The MM# 1 DMP attempt was dressed with Lesís sauce, Grande mozzarella, fresh tomatoes and peppers that I went outside and picked for this pie.  After the bake, the rim was brushed with melted butter with garlic powder, then Red Cowís Parmesan cheese was sprinkled on the rim.

I took some pictures outside so it can be seen better how dark the dough ball was, and also how dark the crust was. 

The crust and rim were crisper on this attempt than my other attempts were.  The pie took about a little over 5 minutes to bake at a little over 500 degrees F on my pizza stone, placed on the bottom rack of my home oven. The crust wasnít as sweet as my last two attempts at market, but did have a great taste.  Overall I liked this attempted MM pie much better than my other attempts.  The rim inside was moist.

Now I wonder just how close this pie was to a real MM pie, because there was less sweetness in the crust.  It could have been from using the ADM 4000 DMP in the formula, since the ADM 4000 DMP didnít taste as sweet to me in the first place.  There was no bitterness in the crust.

I now wonder if I should just go with one of the formulas posted before and make the dough, then ball, and then freeze the dough ball for one day in my static freezer.  Then I could take it to market tomorrow, and let it defrost until Tuesday to see if there might be any more sweetness in the crust from making the dough the same day, then freezing it.  I am stumped as where to go from this experiment forward.

I know this thread is about trying to make a clone MM pizza, but I think Peterís last formula for the MM#1 with the ADM 4000 DMP created a whole new kind of pizza, that most people would enjoy.  :-D At least it looked and tasted healthy to me.  ;D

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #222 on: October 02, 2011, 02:46:21 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #223 on: October 02, 2011, 02:47:43 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #224 on: October 02, 2011, 03:27:12 PM »
Norma,

LOL. At least the crust wasn't bitter and you liked the pizza. Unfortunately, our members may not have access to the ADM 4000 DMP to be able to make a pizza like yours.

Of the ADM DMP products, the ADM 4000 DMP has the greatest amount of molasses solids (75%) so that might account for the darker dough and crust color. The ADM 65 DMP, which you have not yet received as a sample, has less molasses solids (65%) and is tan colored (http://www.adm.com/en-us/Products/_layouts/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=716). That product might allow you to use the same amount as the ADM 4000 DMP yet conceivably end up with a lighter color. That product also has the maltodextrin but it is not clear whether that will add much more in the way of sweetness.

Was the crust breadlike like the last one you made? And was the rim a bit on the dense side and chewy? Some of those qualities might have resulted from the relatively long bake time for such a small pizza.

I am not sure where you go next with the MM experiments. I have been waiting to see what results Biz gets to see what might be the logical next step. I suppose you could repeat your last dough but for a larger size pizza. Freezing the dough ball might be a worthwhile experiment but if you didn't detect much sweetness with your latest pizza I am not sure that the defrosted dough will do much better.

Peter