Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 171179 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #220 on: October 02, 2011, 01:20:16 PM »
I had one quick question to ask you about.  I just looked though my ďhoardersĒ flour cupboards, and though all my flours, and I donít have any corn meal here at home.  Do you think I should just go with making the small attempted MMís pizza without any flour, or use Bobís Red Mill semolina flour to coat the dough ball?  All my cornmeal is at market.  I am soon ready to make the pizza with topping.

Norma,

I think I would go with the semolina. It is not the same as cornmeal, of course, but the color is about the same and it might have an effect on the color of the bottom of the crust that is similar to what cornmeal might do.

Peter


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #221 on: October 02, 2011, 02:44:46 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with the semolina. It is not the same as cornmeal, of course, but the color is about the same and it might have an effect on the color of the bottom of the crust that is similar to what cornmeal might do.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít see you post because I already started making the pizza, so I just went ahead and use semolina flour to coat the dough ball and peel.  The small dough ball seemed okay to open and didnít seem nearly as wet as my dough ball did on Tuesday.  The MM# 1 DMP attempt was dressed with Lesís sauce, Grande mozzarella, fresh tomatoes and peppers that I went outside and picked for this pie.  After the bake, the rim was brushed with melted butter with garlic powder, then Red Cowís Parmesan cheese was sprinkled on the rim.

I took some pictures outside so it can be seen better how dark the dough ball was, and also how dark the crust was. 

The crust and rim were crisper on this attempt than my other attempts were.  The pie took about a little over 5 minutes to bake at a little over 500 degrees F on my pizza stone, placed on the bottom rack of my home oven. The crust wasnít as sweet as my last two attempts at market, but did have a great taste.  Overall I liked this attempted MM pie much better than my other attempts.  The rim inside was moist.

Now I wonder just how close this pie was to a real MM pie, because there was less sweetness in the crust.  It could have been from using the ADM 4000 DMP in the formula, since the ADM 4000 DMP didnít taste as sweet to me in the first place.  There was no bitterness in the crust.

I now wonder if I should just go with one of the formulas posted before and make the dough, then ball, and then freeze the dough ball for one day in my static freezer.  Then I could take it to market tomorrow, and let it defrost until Tuesday to see if there might be any more sweetness in the crust from making the dough the same day, then freezing it.  I am stumped as where to go from this experiment forward.

I know this thread is about trying to make a clone MM pizza, but I think Peterís last formula for the MM#1 with the ADM 4000 DMP created a whole new kind of pizza, that most people would enjoy.  :-D At least it looked and tasted healthy to me.  ;D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #222 on: October 02, 2011, 02:46:21 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #223 on: October 02, 2011, 02:47:43 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #224 on: October 02, 2011, 03:27:12 PM »
Norma,

LOL. At least the crust wasn't bitter and you liked the pizza. Unfortunately, our members may not have access to the ADM 4000 DMP to be able to make a pizza like yours.

Of the ADM DMP products, the ADM 4000 DMP has the greatest amount of molasses solids (75%) so that might account for the darker dough and crust color. The ADM 65 DMP, which you have not yet received as a sample, has less molasses solids (65%) and is tan colored (http://www.adm.com/en-us/Products/_layouts/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=716). That product might allow you to use the same amount as the ADM 4000 DMP yet conceivably end up with a lighter color. That product also has the maltodextrin but it is not clear whether that will add much more in the way of sweetness.

Was the crust breadlike like the last one you made? And was the rim a bit on the dense side and chewy? Some of those qualities might have resulted from the relatively long bake time for such a small pizza.

I am not sure where you go next with the MM experiments. I have been waiting to see what results Biz gets to see what might be the logical next step. I suppose you could repeat your last dough but for a larger size pizza. Freezing the dough ball might be a worthwhile experiment but if you didn't detect much sweetness with your latest pizza I am not sure that the defrosted dough will do much better.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #225 on: October 02, 2011, 04:54:03 PM »
Interesting results, Norma.  Looks tasty - especially with all those veggies!!

I had a couple questions if anyone has time to respond before I go to prepare my pie tonight:

1)  Temper time - there's been some discussion here about tempering, namely overtempering, as we suspect might have happened in Norma's dough that became extremely extensible.  This made me realize that I don't really know how to determine temper time.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Due to my schedule on Sunday nights, I normally don't have too much of a choice - I have to pull it out of the fridge about 2 hours (if I use the screen) or even 3-3.5 hours ahead if I use the stone (to allow it to heat).
Ambient temps in my antebellum house can vary wildly.  We've had a cold snap down here, so the ambient today is 69.  In my previous attempts it was around 76 or so.

2) "superheating" my stone? - I read here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,440.msg3827.html#msg3827 about tricking an electric oven to keep the baking element on so that the stone would get even hotter than the oven setting due to the constant direct heat.  
I used this method recently with some hearth breads and I was very pleased.  
Would this be beneficial to an MM pie?  I usually think "hotter is better" but then I pause a bit because we've seen sub-500 degree bake temps in some MM stores.  Thoughts?

On a separate topic - and this is really just craziness - I have been daydreaming about possible other sweeteners that MM may be using.  One train of thought I've had revolves around the molasses itself.
Being a chain started in the South, it has occurred to me that many, many Southerners (including myself until very recently) actually use the term "molasses" incorrectly.  When they say Molasses, they're actually referring to Sorghum Syrup.  I grew up calling Sorghum Syrup "molasses" and so do most Southerners.  Sorghum and Molasses are not at all the same - I believe they're not even made from the same plant.  Sorghum is usually much lighter in color and sweeter - both characteristics that I think need to be increased in the MM doughs we've been trying, perhaps.  At the same time, it seems a little unlikely that anyone uses Sorghum in a commercial application.  Just throwing it out there for some fun discussion  ;D  

Hope to hear from y'all soon.   I will report back later regarding tonight's results.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 04:57:52 PM by Biz Markie »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #226 on: October 02, 2011, 05:24:09 PM »
Biz,

On the matter of the temper time, I usually go with the season. For example, in the summer when my kitchen is warm, the temper time might be a little as an hour. In the winter when my kitchen is on the cool or cold side, it might be 2 or more hours. On average, I would say about an hour and a half. I will often check the temperature of the dough and if it is around 70 degrees F, that will usually work out well for me.

I don't think that I would mess with the oven itself at this point. If we manage to get a decent MM clone and it looks like there is an oven problem, then you might consider a modification of the use of your oven.

I actually did think about sorghum. However, I did not know that sorghum is called molasses in the South. Maybe I can do a little research on whether sorghum would make a good sweetener.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #227 on: October 02, 2011, 06:01:52 PM »
Thanks, Peter!

RE: Sorghum....it's pretty funny - in fact, a lot of people down here use the term "Sorghum Molasses" which is a complete and utter oxymoron!!

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #228 on: October 02, 2011, 07:03:01 PM »
Norma,

LOL. At least the crust wasn't bitter and you liked the pizza. Unfortunately, our members may not have access to the ADM 4000 DMP to be able to make a pizza like yours.

Of the ADM DMP products, the ADM 4000 DMP has the greatest amount of molasses solids (75%) so that might account for the darker dough and crust color. The ADM 65 DMP, which you have not yet received as a sample, has less molasses solids (65%) and is tan colored (http://www.adm.com/en-us/Products/_layouts/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=716). That product might allow you to use the same amount as the ADM 4000 DMP yet conceivably end up with a lighter color. That product also has the maltodextrin but it is not clear whether that will add much more in the way of sweetness.

Was the crust breadlike like the last one you made? And was the rim a bit on the dense side and chewy? Some of those qualities might have resulted from the relatively long bake time for such a small pizza.

I am not sure where you go next with the MM experiments. I have been waiting to see what results Biz gets to see what might be the logical next step. I suppose you could repeat your last dough but for a larger size pizza. Freezing the dough ball might be a worthwhile experiment but if you didn't detect much sweetness with your latest pizza I am not sure that the defrosted dough will do much better.

Peter

Peter,

I still havenít been able to request the sample of ADM 65 DMP. I donít know what it up with that.  I will try to request a sample again tonight. I might have to call ADM again and see why my sample requests arenít being accepted.  I know other members probably wonít have access to the ADM 4000 DMP, to be able to make a pizza like the one I did this afternoon.

The crust looked breadlike, but was very tender and moist.  I donít know how that happened either.  The dough did feel much drier, but there was no way I could have tossed the small dough skin.  The crumb wasnít chewy.  

I didnít really mean I wanted to do an experiment on the dough I made today.  What I meant is I wanted to do an experiment on the MA#2 dough formula you set-forth to see if some how my excessive extensibility issues were from how long I let the dough ball sit out last Tuesday. I also wanted to know if you thought if using the MA# formula and it is mixed tonight, then froze the dough ball until tomorrow  or until Tuesday morning and then used on Tuesday, if somehow that would show if the sugar level sweetness is increased, from a short time dough frozen and then unfrozen. I guess I explained it right, but if I didnít let me know. Do you think that would be a good experiment or not?

I will be anxious to hear about Bizís new experiment.  

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #229 on: October 02, 2011, 07:07:06 PM »
Norma,

The experiment you described based on MM#2 merits trying.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 07:08:44 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #230 on: October 02, 2011, 07:13:12 PM »
Interesting results, Norma.  Looks tasty - especially with all those veggies!!

I had a couple questions if anyone has time to respond before I go to prepare my pie tonight:

1)  Temper time - there's been some discussion here about tempering, namely overtempering, as we suspect might have happened in Norma's dough that became extremely extensible.  This made me realize that I don't really know how to determine temper time.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Due to my schedule on Sunday nights, I normally don't have too much of a choice - I have to pull it out of the fridge about 2 hours (if I use the screen) or even 3-3.5 hours ahead if I use the stone (to allow it to heat).
Ambient temps in my antebellum house can vary wildly.  We've had a cold snap down here, so the ambient today is 69.  In my previous attempts it was around 76 or so.

2) "superheating" my stone? - I read here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,440.msg3827.html#msg3827 about tricking an electric oven to keep the baking element on so that the stone would get even hotter than the oven setting due to the constant direct heat.  
I used this method recently with some hearth breads and I was very pleased.  
Would this be beneficial to an MM pie?  I usually think "hotter is better" but then I pause a bit because we've seen sub-500 degree bake temps in some MM stores.  Thoughts?

On a separate topic - and this is really just craziness - I have been daydreaming about possible other sweeteners that MM may be using.  One train of thought I've had revolves around the molasses itself.
Being a chain started in the South, it has occurred to me that many, many Southerners (including myself until very recently) actually use the term "molasses" incorrectly.  When they say Molasses, they're actually referring to Sorghum Syrup.  I grew up calling Sorghum Syrup "molasses" and so do most Southerners.  Sorghum and Molasses are not at all the same - I believe they're not even made from the same plant.  Sorghum is usually much lighter in color and sweeter - both characteristics that I think need to be increased in the MM doughs we've been trying, perhaps.  At the same time, it seems a little unlikely that anyone uses Sorghum in a commercial application.  Just throwing it out there for some fun discussion  ;D  

Hope to hear from y'all soon.   I will report back later regarding tonight's results.

Biz,

Thanks for saying my results were interesting especially with the veggies.

I also have the problem of over tempering and not knowing when to use these doughs in this thread.  I think my problem was from letting my dough ball sit out at higher temperatures for too long, but I am not sure.  Our temperatures in our area are really getting cooler now too.  I didnít even know when to use my emergency dough today, but somehow that did work out okay. 

Best of luck with your MM attempt tonight!  :) Your thoughts on Sorghum are very interesting.  I heard of Sorghum before, but I thought it was just another name for molasses.  You gave me another thing to think about too.  This thread has been crazy so far, and I have learned a lot from you and Peter.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #231 on: October 02, 2011, 07:18:52 PM »
Norma,

The experiment you described based on MM#2 merits trying.

Peter

Peter,

Just one more question.  Since it is so late today, do you think I should freeze the dough ball until later tomorrow, (about the same time tomorrow night), then put the dough in the fridge and make it later in the day Tuesday, or just freeze tonight and let it thaw out starting tomorrow when I go to market.  I know my timeframe is off now.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #232 on: October 02, 2011, 07:38:18 PM »
Just one more question.  Since it is so late today, do you think I should freeze the dough ball until later tomorrow, (about the same time tomorrow night), then put the dough in the fridge and make it later in the day Tuesday, or just freeze tonight and let it thaw out starting tomorrow when I go to market.  I know my timeframe is off now.

Norma,

I think I would go with the latter.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #233 on: October 02, 2011, 07:54:24 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with the latter.

Peter

Thanks for your thoughts on what to do.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #234 on: October 03, 2011, 07:52:51 AM »
I did a limited search on sorghum for Mellow Mushroom since Biz mentioned what sorghum is.  About the only thing I found was this article that mentioned sorghum malt beers, in an article about Gluten-Free pizza at Mellow Mushroom.  http://eatjax.com/?p=4672
I know sorghum probably isnít used in MM doughs, but malted sorghum can be used in dough.  I also wonder about dried barley malt syrup, because it tastes a bit like molasses, and its not as sweet as sugar or honey.  It is used mostly to make beer, but itís also used to make breads and other baked goods.  This is a link to syrups and their descriptions.  http://www.foodsubs.com/Syrups.html  At least dry malt syrup or malted sorghum would have been available when MM started their operations in 1974.

This is what my MM #2  dough looked like last evening before it was frozen.  I copied a few pictures from MM Facebook in different locations, if anyone wants some inspiration to try one of the formulas set-forth so far.  I think I am going to print out a few different pictures to go with my experiment for tomorrow.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #236 on: October 03, 2011, 08:04:10 AM »
A Mellow Mushroom Dough used to make something else.  :-D

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #237 on: October 03, 2011, 09:43:11 AM »
Here are my results from the modified MM#2 attempt last night.

To recap, here is the formula I used, with the Germ shown as a separate ingredient:
High Gluten Flour = 100%
Wheat Germ = 2.0%
Spring Water = 54.0%
IDY = 0.37%
Salt = 2.0%
Soybean Oil = 3.0%
Liquid Molasses = 5.0%
TOTAL = 166.37%

1) Temper - the dough was tempered at about 69 degrees for 1.5 hours.  I left it in the container this time.  Sometimes I'll remove it from the container completely and cover with plastic wrap, but not this time. The dough didn't seem to have risen as much before the temper as perhaps other doughs, and after the temper it didn't seem to have grown much.  I didn't measure the temp of the dough, but it was cool-ish to the touch.

2) Skin prep - The dough I think was close to the perfect amount of extensibility.  It was not as loose or gassy as previous doughs.  After dusting with cornmeal, I formed a rim as I did in my last attempt and stretched it out to about 8-10'' on the counter using my hands.  It was fairly cooperative.  I then picked it up and slapped it a couple times, then twirled it a bit, then moved on to a few full tosses.  The tosses weren't proving to be super useful, so I then stretched it over my fists for a bit.  This dough was probably the most tolerant dough I've handled. ..I had no fears about it tearing or anything.  It was really fun to work with.  I don't know how much was due to the cooler temperature of the dough versus the lower hydration.  Some of both, I suppose.

3) Baking - I had been able to preheat my stone on the lowest rack position for about 1.5 hours this time.  No "superheating" tricks.  I moved the stone to the second-highest rack position in order to get a better convergence of crust and topping doneness.  I think this was a good move.  I baked it for 8 minutes.  The oven spring was excellent this time (I was afraid a bit because the rim I formed on the skin didn't seem particularly big).  It probably could have been pulled at 7 minutes, but I would not call the pie overbaked.  I brushed with melted Earth Balance spread plus a little garlic powder.  No Parm.

4) Observations - The rim puffed-up quite nicely and the crumb structure was good.  Fairly open and bubbly but nothing too crazy.  I'm having a hard time judging the crumb structure and texture to the real MM because those qualities don't stick in one's mind as much as flavor or aroma.

5) Taste - The good news is that I think the reduced Germ was a good move - I did not taste the pronounced savory/nutty flavor as I did last week.  The bad news is that the crust was not noticeably sweet.  Honestly it was a pretty blah-tasting crust.  It performed great, but the taste was not MM-like.  I could taste a hint of the molasses in the crunchier parts of the outer crust, but that was about it.  I'm thinking at this point that my tastebuds were simply not calibrated when I said my first MM attempt was sweet, because this formula was almost identical and I did not detect sweetness anywhere near the degree of the real MM.  

I think at this point if you increased the Molasses, it would change the color too much to the point of not resembling an MM dough at all.  Therefore, I think they must be using some additional sweetener or a different sweetener altogether.  My gut is probably leaning towards honey (based partially on some flatbread I made recently from BBA that included honey).  The Southerner in me wants to think it's sorghum, but not sure.  I may try that one day just for kicks, because I love sorghum (and molasses).
I noticed Norma mentioned barley malt.  I have both diastatic barley malt powder and a jar of barley malt syrup.  I also thought about the latter for use in an MM dough.  It would, I think, give the dough a more golden color which I tend to associate with MM.  I think you could use more of it without making the dough too brown.  Also, Barley Malt Syrup is considered a "healthy" sweetener by vegans and such because it is more of a "whole food" and less refined.  However, all of this speculation makes you wonder why so many sources talk about "molasses" in the dough. 

I may post some pics from last night, but they're nothing really new.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 10:08:33 AM by Biz Markie »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #238 on: October 03, 2011, 12:19:20 PM »
Biz,

Thank you for your nice report. I was thinking about the entire MM matter quite a bit yesterday (more on this below) so I was anxiously awaiting your report. However, to be honest, based mainly on Normaís recent MM experiments, I wasnít really expecting you to report that you had solved the sweetness problem. But because you had reported earlier that you had made a sweet MM crust, which you have now recanted, I wanted to await your results before commenting further. Also, I would like to see what results Norma gets when she makes a pizza out of the frozen dough ball she made specifically to see if using the dough ball sooner retains more of the sweetness of the molasses. Like you and Norma, I am increasingly having doubts about the effectiveness of molasses alone to provide detectible levels of sweetness in a pizza crust. Maybe MM is using a special form or type of molasses that has a high sweetness factor that we cannot replicate with retail level products. In this vein, I thought that perhaps MM was using a molasses product with maltodextrin but after researching that possibility, I discovered that maltodextrin, which is technically a carbohydrate and not a sugar, has a low sweetness factor. So, it is unlikely to provide a sweetness boost.

Yesterday, in parallel with Normaís efforts, I conducted a simple test to see how much molasses a dough can take while not becoming too dark. I donít have any high-gluten flour on hand so I decided to take some King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and to increase its protein content to 14.2% by using the Hodgson Mill brand of vital wheat gluten (I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to do this). I then replaced 3% of that blend with the Bobís Red Mill brand of wheat germ. Before adding the wheat germ to the KABF, I toasted it and then ground it into a flour-like powder. Both the vital wheat gluten and the toasted wheat germ added some color to the KABF. But it was not pronounced.

For the molasses, I used the Brer Rabbit brand of liquid molasses. It was the Full Flavor version, the only version that I could find the other day in my local supermarket. I decided to use 5% for my simple color test. I used an amount of water to yield a nominal hydration of 55%. That made the ďadjustedĒ hydration 56.1% (after accounting for the water content of the molasses) and the ďeffectiveĒ hydration after accounting for the soybean oil, which was at 2%, was 58.1%. That value seemed to me to be an idiot-proof value that would yield a dough that just about anyone could handle and the dough would be nicely extensible but highly unlikely to stick to anything when opened up to make a skin. Because the amount of dough was on the small side, at 12 ounces, I used my 14-cup capacity Cuisinart food processor with the metal blade to prepare the dough. That worked out very well. The finished dough ball was a bit tacky but had a nice smooth feel. But, most importantly, the color of the dough ball was almost exactly the color of the brown coffee filter that I have been using as a benchmark for the color of MMís dough. So, for my particular set of ingredients, 5% liquid molasses seems to be a good value or at least a good starting point if we are ever able to get a real MM dough ball to compare the colors of the two doughs.

Rather than throw the dough ball away, I decided to freeze it for a few days, defrost it for about a day, and then bake it to see if there is any significant contribution to sweetness. By that time, Norma will have perhaps answered that question with her own frozen dough ball.

I also did some research on sorghum, or ďsorghum molassesĒ. I did not do an exhaustive search because I tend not to think that MM is using sorghum. I found some sources of sorghum syrup, including one in Georgia, but the sources I found were small mom-and-pop suppliers. I did not find a commercial supplier, which is the kind of supplier someone like MM would want and need to feed a growing franchise business that is moving across the country.

To this point, Norma and I have collectively spoken to or had other exchanges with three different flour millers (Pendleton, Montana Milling and General Mills), one wheat germ expert (Garuda International) and one or two ADM molasses specialists. Yet, surprisingly, these sources seemed to be oblivious to what MM is doing with its dough. If I had to guess, I would say that MM is most likely making its own flour blend using an unbleached, unbromated high-gluten flour, a defatted finely ground wheat germ with added Vitamin E, and that it is using a modest amount of molasses that is just enough to add color (but not too much) and some flavor and sweetness. At this juncture, it is not clear whether the molasses is a liquid molasses or a dry molasses powder, but I would lean more to the dry molasses powder because of convenience of use, handling and storage. If that is a correct guess, and if MM is using another sweetener, that added sweetener could include honey or barley malt, most likely also in a dry form. Honey comes in many different colors as does the barley malt but they both can be used with molasses. There are other possible sweeteners but they would have to be unrefined. MM has lived with the molasses story for so long and is part of their dough's DNA and accepted by everyone as a unique and distinguishing feature that there would be little point in changing that story at this time.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #239 on: October 03, 2011, 12:21:21 PM »
Here are my results from the modified MM#2 attempt last night.

To recap, here is the formula I used, with the Germ shown as a separate ingredient:
High Gluten Flour = 100%
Wheat Germ = 2.0%
Spring Water = 54.0%
IDY = 0.37%
Salt = 2.0%
Soybean Oil = 3.0%
Liquid Molasses = 5.0%
TOTAL = 166.37%

1) Temper - the dough was tempered at about 69 degrees for 1.5 hours.  I left it in the container this time.  Sometimes I'll remove it from the container completely and cover with plastic wrap, but not this time. The dough didn't seem to have risen as much before the temper as perhaps other doughs, and after the temper it didn't seem to have grown much.  I didn't measure the temp of the dough, but it was cool-ish to the touch.

2) Skin prep - The dough I think was close to the perfect amount of extensibility.  It was not as loose or gassy as previous doughs.  After dusting with cornmeal, I formed a rim as I did in my last attempt and stretched it out to about 8-10'' on the counter using my hands.  It was fairly cooperative.  I then picked it up and slapped it a couple times, then twirled it a bit, then moved on to a few full tosses.  The tosses weren't proving to be super useful, so I then stretched it over my fists for a bit.  This dough was probably the most tolerant dough I've handled. ..I had no fears about it tearing or anything.  It was really fun to work with.  I don't know how much was due to the cooler temperature of the dough versus the lower hydration.  Some of both, I suppose.

3) Baking - I had been able to preheat my stone on the lowest rack position for about 1.5 hours this time.  No "superheating" tricks.  I moved the stone to the second-highest rack position in order to get a better convergence of crust and topping doneness.  I think this was a good move.  I baked it for 8 minutes.  The oven spring was excellent this time (I was afraid a bit because the rim I formed on the skin didn't seem particularly big).  It probably could have been pulled at 7 minutes, but I would not call the pie overbaked.  I brushed with melted Earth Balance spread plus a little garlic powder.  No Parm.

4) Observations - The rim puffed-up quite nicely and the crumb structure was good.  Fairly open and bubbly but nothing too crazy.  I'm having a hard time judging the crumb structure and texture to the real MM because those qualities don't stick in one's mind as much as flavor or aroma.

5) Taste - The good news is that I think the reduced Germ was a good move - I did not taste the pronounced savory/nutty flavor as I did last week.  The bad news is that the crust was not noticeably sweet.  Honestly it was a pretty blah-tasting crust.  It performed great, but the taste was not MM-like.  I could taste a hint of the molasses in the crunchier parts of the outer crust, but that was about it.  I'm thinking at this point that my tastebuds were simply not calibrated when I said my first MM attempt was sweet, because this formula was almost identical and I did not detect sweetness anywhere near the degree of the real MM.  

I think at this point if you increased the Molasses, it would change the color too much to the point of not resembling an MM dough at all.  Therefore, I think they must be using some additional sweetener or a different sweetener altogether.  My gut is probably leaning towards honey (based partially on some flatbread I made recently from BBA that included honey).  The Southerner in me wants to think it's sorghum, but not sure.  I may try that one day just for kicks, because I love sorghum (and molasses).
I noticed Norma mentioned barley malt.  I have both diastatic barley malt powder and a jar of barley malt syrup.  I also thought about the latter for use in an MM dough.  It would, I think, give the dough a more golden color which I tend to associate with MM.  I think you could use more of it without making the dough too brown.  Also, Barley Malt Syrup is considered a "healthy" sweetener by vegans and such because it is more of a "whole food" and less refined.  However, all of this speculation makes you wonder why so many sources talk about "molasses" in the dough. 

I may post some pics from last night, but they're nothing really new.

Biz,

Sounds like your MM dough went extremely well, and it could be opened well.  :) Your formula is almost like the one I am trying for tomorrow, except for the wheat germ amount.  I still also wonder about how to get the sweetness level right, even though I donít know what it supposed to be. Great to hear your rim puffed-up nicely.  I would like to see your photos if you are able to post them. I think based on your results I wonít let my dough temper too long.

BTW, if anyone is interested I finally was able to request some ADM 65 Spray-Dried Molasses, but had to find another place to send my request for a sample, because the other place at http://www.adm.com/en-us/Products/_layouts/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=716  still wouldnít let me request the ADM 65 DMP. 
This is where I filled out the form for the sample.  http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/drysweeteners/Pages/Molasses.aspx after I clicked on contacts under the dry sweeteners on the right side.  At least I received a confirmation email right after I filled out the form and typed the characters in, so I will wait and see if I get the sample.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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