Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 200924 times)

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Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #225 on: October 02, 2011, 04:54:03 PM »
Interesting results, Norma.  Looks tasty - especially with all those veggies!!

I had a couple questions if anyone has time to respond before I go to prepare my pie tonight:

1)  Temper time - there's been some discussion here about tempering, namely overtempering, as we suspect might have happened in Norma's dough that became extremely extensible.  This made me realize that I don't really know how to determine temper time.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Due to my schedule on Sunday nights, I normally don't have too much of a choice - I have to pull it out of the fridge about 2 hours (if I use the screen) or even 3-3.5 hours ahead if I use the stone (to allow it to heat).
Ambient temps in my antebellum house can vary wildly.  We've had a cold snap down here, so the ambient today is 69.  In my previous attempts it was around 76 or so.

2) "superheating" my stone? - I read here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,440.msg3827.html#msg3827 about tricking an electric oven to keep the baking element on so that the stone would get even hotter than the oven setting due to the constant direct heat.  
I used this method recently with some hearth breads and I was very pleased.  
Would this be beneficial to an MM pie?  I usually think "hotter is better" but then I pause a bit because we've seen sub-500 degree bake temps in some MM stores.  Thoughts?

On a separate topic - and this is really just craziness - I have been daydreaming about possible other sweeteners that MM may be using.  One train of thought I've had revolves around the molasses itself.
Being a chain started in the South, it has occurred to me that many, many Southerners (including myself until very recently) actually use the term "molasses" incorrectly.  When they say Molasses, they're actually referring to Sorghum Syrup.  I grew up calling Sorghum Syrup "molasses" and so do most Southerners.  Sorghum and Molasses are not at all the same - I believe they're not even made from the same plant.  Sorghum is usually much lighter in color and sweeter - both characteristics that I think need to be increased in the MM doughs we've been trying, perhaps.  At the same time, it seems a little unlikely that anyone uses Sorghum in a commercial application.  Just throwing it out there for some fun discussion  ;D  

Hope to hear from y'all soon.   I will report back later regarding tonight's results.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 04:57:52 PM by Biz Markie »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #226 on: October 02, 2011, 05:24:09 PM »
Biz,

On the matter of the temper time, I usually go with the season. For example, in the summer when my kitchen is warm, the temper time might be a little as an hour. In the winter when my kitchen is on the cool or cold side, it might be 2 or more hours. On average, I would say about an hour and a half. I will often check the temperature of the dough and if it is around 70 degrees F, that will usually work out well for me.

I don't think that I would mess with the oven itself at this point. If we manage to get a decent MM clone and it looks like there is an oven problem, then you might consider a modification of the use of your oven.

I actually did think about sorghum. However, I did not know that sorghum is called molasses in the South. Maybe I can do a little research on whether sorghum would make a good sweetener.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #227 on: October 02, 2011, 06:01:52 PM »
Thanks, Peter!

RE: Sorghum....it's pretty funny - in fact, a lot of people down here use the term "Sorghum Molasses" which is a complete and utter oxymoron!!

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #228 on: October 02, 2011, 07:03:01 PM »
Norma,

LOL. At least the crust wasn't bitter and you liked the pizza. Unfortunately, our members may not have access to the ADM 4000 DMP to be able to make a pizza like yours.

Of the ADM DMP products, the ADM 4000 DMP has the greatest amount of molasses solids (75%) so that might account for the darker dough and crust color. The ADM 65 DMP, which you have not yet received as a sample, has less molasses solids (65%) and is tan colored (http://www.adm.com/en-us/Products/_layouts/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=716). That product might allow you to use the same amount as the ADM 4000 DMP yet conceivably end up with a lighter color. That product also has the maltodextrin but it is not clear whether that will add much more in the way of sweetness.

Was the crust breadlike like the last one you made? And was the rim a bit on the dense side and chewy? Some of those qualities might have resulted from the relatively long bake time for such a small pizza.

I am not sure where you go next with the MM experiments. I have been waiting to see what results Biz gets to see what might be the logical next step. I suppose you could repeat your last dough but for a larger size pizza. Freezing the dough ball might be a worthwhile experiment but if you didn't detect much sweetness with your latest pizza I am not sure that the defrosted dough will do much better.

Peter

Peter,

I still haven’t been able to request the sample of ADM 65 DMP. I don’t know what it up with that.  I will try to request a sample again tonight. I might have to call ADM again and see why my sample requests aren’t being accepted.  I know other members probably won’t have access to the ADM 4000 DMP, to be able to make a pizza like the one I did this afternoon.

The crust looked breadlike, but was very tender and moist.  I don’t know how that happened either.  The dough did feel much drier, but there was no way I could have tossed the small dough skin.  The crumb wasn’t chewy.  

I didn’t really mean I wanted to do an experiment on the dough I made today.  What I meant is I wanted to do an experiment on the MA#2 dough formula you set-forth to see if some how my excessive extensibility issues were from how long I let the dough ball sit out last Tuesday. I also wanted to know if you thought if using the MA# formula and it is mixed tonight, then froze the dough ball until tomorrow  or until Tuesday morning and then used on Tuesday, if somehow that would show if the sugar level sweetness is increased, from a short time dough frozen and then unfrozen. I guess I explained it right, but if I didn’t let me know. Do you think that would be a good experiment or not?

I will be anxious to hear about Biz’s new experiment.  

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #229 on: October 02, 2011, 07:07:06 PM »
Norma,

The experiment you described based on MM#2 merits trying.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 07:08:44 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #230 on: October 02, 2011, 07:13:12 PM »
Interesting results, Norma.  Looks tasty - especially with all those veggies!!

I had a couple questions if anyone has time to respond before I go to prepare my pie tonight:

1)  Temper time - there's been some discussion here about tempering, namely overtempering, as we suspect might have happened in Norma's dough that became extremely extensible.  This made me realize that I don't really know how to determine temper time.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  Due to my schedule on Sunday nights, I normally don't have too much of a choice - I have to pull it out of the fridge about 2 hours (if I use the screen) or even 3-3.5 hours ahead if I use the stone (to allow it to heat).
Ambient temps in my antebellum house can vary wildly.  We've had a cold snap down here, so the ambient today is 69.  In my previous attempts it was around 76 or so.

2) "superheating" my stone? - I read here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,440.msg3827.html#msg3827 about tricking an electric oven to keep the baking element on so that the stone would get even hotter than the oven setting due to the constant direct heat.  
I used this method recently with some hearth breads and I was very pleased.  
Would this be beneficial to an MM pie?  I usually think "hotter is better" but then I pause a bit because we've seen sub-500 degree bake temps in some MM stores.  Thoughts?

On a separate topic - and this is really just craziness - I have been daydreaming about possible other sweeteners that MM may be using.  One train of thought I've had revolves around the molasses itself.
Being a chain started in the South, it has occurred to me that many, many Southerners (including myself until very recently) actually use the term "molasses" incorrectly.  When they say Molasses, they're actually referring to Sorghum Syrup.  I grew up calling Sorghum Syrup "molasses" and so do most Southerners.  Sorghum and Molasses are not at all the same - I believe they're not even made from the same plant.  Sorghum is usually much lighter in color and sweeter - both characteristics that I think need to be increased in the MM doughs we've been trying, perhaps.  At the same time, it seems a little unlikely that anyone uses Sorghum in a commercial application.  Just throwing it out there for some fun discussion  ;D  

Hope to hear from y'all soon.   I will report back later regarding tonight's results.

Biz,

Thanks for saying my results were interesting especially with the veggies.

I also have the problem of over tempering and not knowing when to use these doughs in this thread.  I think my problem was from letting my dough ball sit out at higher temperatures for too long, but I am not sure.  Our temperatures in our area are really getting cooler now too.  I didn’t even know when to use my emergency dough today, but somehow that did work out okay. 

Best of luck with your MM attempt tonight!  :) Your thoughts on Sorghum are very interesting.  I heard of Sorghum before, but I thought it was just another name for molasses.  You gave me another thing to think about too.  This thread has been crazy so far, and I have learned a lot from you and Peter.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #231 on: October 02, 2011, 07:18:52 PM »
Norma,

The experiment you described based on MM#2 merits trying.

Peter

Peter,

Just one more question.  Since it is so late today, do you think I should freeze the dough ball until later tomorrow, (about the same time tomorrow night), then put the dough in the fridge and make it later in the day Tuesday, or just freeze tonight and let it thaw out starting tomorrow when I go to market.  I know my timeframe is off now.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #232 on: October 02, 2011, 07:38:18 PM »
Just one more question.  Since it is so late today, do you think I should freeze the dough ball until later tomorrow, (about the same time tomorrow night), then put the dough in the fridge and make it later in the day Tuesday, or just freeze tonight and let it thaw out starting tomorrow when I go to market.  I know my timeframe is off now.

Norma,

I think I would go with the latter.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #233 on: October 02, 2011, 07:54:24 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with the latter.

Peter

Thanks for your thoughts on what to do.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #234 on: October 03, 2011, 07:52:51 AM »
I did a limited search on sorghum for Mellow Mushroom since Biz mentioned what sorghum is.  About the only thing I found was this article that mentioned sorghum malt beers, in an article about Gluten-Free pizza at Mellow Mushroom.  http://eatjax.com/?p=4672
I know sorghum probably isn’t used in MM doughs, but malted sorghum can be used in dough.  I also wonder about dried barley malt syrup, because it tastes a bit like molasses, and its not as sweet as sugar or honey.  It is used mostly to make beer, but it’s also used to make breads and other baked goods.  This is a link to syrups and their descriptions.  http://www.foodsubs.com/Syrups.html  At least dry malt syrup or malted sorghum would have been available when MM started their operations in 1974.

This is what my MM #2  dough looked like last evening before it was frozen.  I copied a few pictures from MM Facebook in different locations, if anyone wants some inspiration to try one of the formulas set-forth so far.  I think I am going to print out a few different pictures to go with my experiment for tomorrow.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #236 on: October 03, 2011, 08:04:10 AM »
A Mellow Mushroom Dough used to make something else.  :-D

Norma
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Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #237 on: October 03, 2011, 09:43:11 AM »
Here are my results from the modified MM#2 attempt last night.

To recap, here is the formula I used, with the Germ shown as a separate ingredient:
High Gluten Flour = 100%
Wheat Germ = 2.0%
Spring Water = 54.0%
IDY = 0.37%
Salt = 2.0%
Soybean Oil = 3.0%
Liquid Molasses = 5.0%
TOTAL = 166.37%

1) Temper - the dough was tempered at about 69 degrees for 1.5 hours.  I left it in the container this time.  Sometimes I'll remove it from the container completely and cover with plastic wrap, but not this time. The dough didn't seem to have risen as much before the temper as perhaps other doughs, and after the temper it didn't seem to have grown much.  I didn't measure the temp of the dough, but it was cool-ish to the touch.

2) Skin prep - The dough I think was close to the perfect amount of extensibility.  It was not as loose or gassy as previous doughs.  After dusting with cornmeal, I formed a rim as I did in my last attempt and stretched it out to about 8-10'' on the counter using my hands.  It was fairly cooperative.  I then picked it up and slapped it a couple times, then twirled it a bit, then moved on to a few full tosses.  The tosses weren't proving to be super useful, so I then stretched it over my fists for a bit.  This dough was probably the most tolerant dough I've handled. ..I had no fears about it tearing or anything.  It was really fun to work with.  I don't know how much was due to the cooler temperature of the dough versus the lower hydration.  Some of both, I suppose.

3) Baking - I had been able to preheat my stone on the lowest rack position for about 1.5 hours this time.  No "superheating" tricks.  I moved the stone to the second-highest rack position in order to get a better convergence of crust and topping doneness.  I think this was a good move.  I baked it for 8 minutes.  The oven spring was excellent this time (I was afraid a bit because the rim I formed on the skin didn't seem particularly big).  It probably could have been pulled at 7 minutes, but I would not call the pie overbaked.  I brushed with melted Earth Balance spread plus a little garlic powder.  No Parm.

4) Observations - The rim puffed-up quite nicely and the crumb structure was good.  Fairly open and bubbly but nothing too crazy.  I'm having a hard time judging the crumb structure and texture to the real MM because those qualities don't stick in one's mind as much as flavor or aroma.

5) Taste - The good news is that I think the reduced Germ was a good move - I did not taste the pronounced savory/nutty flavor as I did last week.  The bad news is that the crust was not noticeably sweet.  Honestly it was a pretty blah-tasting crust.  It performed great, but the taste was not MM-like.  I could taste a hint of the molasses in the crunchier parts of the outer crust, but that was about it.  I'm thinking at this point that my tastebuds were simply not calibrated when I said my first MM attempt was sweet, because this formula was almost identical and I did not detect sweetness anywhere near the degree of the real MM.  

I think at this point if you increased the Molasses, it would change the color too much to the point of not resembling an MM dough at all.  Therefore, I think they must be using some additional sweetener or a different sweetener altogether.  My gut is probably leaning towards honey (based partially on some flatbread I made recently from BBA that included honey).  The Southerner in me wants to think it's sorghum, but not sure.  I may try that one day just for kicks, because I love sorghum (and molasses).
I noticed Norma mentioned barley malt.  I have both diastatic barley malt powder and a jar of barley malt syrup.  I also thought about the latter for use in an MM dough.  It would, I think, give the dough a more golden color which I tend to associate with MM.  I think you could use more of it without making the dough too brown.  Also, Barley Malt Syrup is considered a "healthy" sweetener by vegans and such because it is more of a "whole food" and less refined.  However, all of this speculation makes you wonder why so many sources talk about "molasses" in the dough. 

I may post some pics from last night, but they're nothing really new.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 10:08:33 AM by Biz Markie »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #238 on: October 03, 2011, 12:19:20 PM »
Biz,

Thank you for your nice report. I was thinking about the entire MM matter quite a bit yesterday (more on this below) so I was anxiously awaiting your report. However, to be honest, based mainly on Norma’s recent MM experiments, I wasn’t really expecting you to report that you had solved the sweetness problem. But because you had reported earlier that you had made a sweet MM crust, which you have now recanted, I wanted to await your results before commenting further. Also, I would like to see what results Norma gets when she makes a pizza out of the frozen dough ball she made specifically to see if using the dough ball sooner retains more of the sweetness of the molasses. Like you and Norma, I am increasingly having doubts about the effectiveness of molasses alone to provide detectible levels of sweetness in a pizza crust. Maybe MM is using a special form or type of molasses that has a high sweetness factor that we cannot replicate with retail level products. In this vein, I thought that perhaps MM was using a molasses product with maltodextrin but after researching that possibility, I discovered that maltodextrin, which is technically a carbohydrate and not a sugar, has a low sweetness factor. So, it is unlikely to provide a sweetness boost.

Yesterday, in parallel with Norma’s efforts, I conducted a simple test to see how much molasses a dough can take while not becoming too dark. I don’t have any high-gluten flour on hand so I decided to take some King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and to increase its protein content to 14.2% by using the Hodgson Mill brand of vital wheat gluten (I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to do this). I then replaced 3% of that blend with the Bob’s Red Mill brand of wheat germ. Before adding the wheat germ to the KABF, I toasted it and then ground it into a flour-like powder. Both the vital wheat gluten and the toasted wheat germ added some color to the KABF. But it was not pronounced.

For the molasses, I used the Brer Rabbit brand of liquid molasses. It was the Full Flavor version, the only version that I could find the other day in my local supermarket. I decided to use 5% for my simple color test. I used an amount of water to yield a nominal hydration of 55%. That made the “adjusted” hydration 56.1% (after accounting for the water content of the molasses) and the “effective” hydration after accounting for the soybean oil, which was at 2%, was 58.1%. That value seemed to me to be an idiot-proof value that would yield a dough that just about anyone could handle and the dough would be nicely extensible but highly unlikely to stick to anything when opened up to make a skin. Because the amount of dough was on the small side, at 12 ounces, I used my 14-cup capacity Cuisinart food processor with the metal blade to prepare the dough. That worked out very well. The finished dough ball was a bit tacky but had a nice smooth feel. But, most importantly, the color of the dough ball was almost exactly the color of the brown coffee filter that I have been using as a benchmark for the color of MM’s dough. So, for my particular set of ingredients, 5% liquid molasses seems to be a good value or at least a good starting point if we are ever able to get a real MM dough ball to compare the colors of the two doughs.

Rather than throw the dough ball away, I decided to freeze it for a few days, defrost it for about a day, and then bake it to see if there is any significant contribution to sweetness. By that time, Norma will have perhaps answered that question with her own frozen dough ball.

I also did some research on sorghum, or “sorghum molasses”. I did not do an exhaustive search because I tend not to think that MM is using sorghum. I found some sources of sorghum syrup, including one in Georgia, but the sources I found were small mom-and-pop suppliers. I did not find a commercial supplier, which is the kind of supplier someone like MM would want and need to feed a growing franchise business that is moving across the country.

To this point, Norma and I have collectively spoken to or had other exchanges with three different flour millers (Pendleton, Montana Milling and General Mills), one wheat germ expert (Garuda International) and one or two ADM molasses specialists. Yet, surprisingly, these sources seemed to be oblivious to what MM is doing with its dough. If I had to guess, I would say that MM is most likely making its own flour blend using an unbleached, unbromated high-gluten flour, a defatted finely ground wheat germ with added Vitamin E, and that it is using a modest amount of molasses that is just enough to add color (but not too much) and some flavor and sweetness. At this juncture, it is not clear whether the molasses is a liquid molasses or a dry molasses powder, but I would lean more to the dry molasses powder because of convenience of use, handling and storage. If that is a correct guess, and if MM is using another sweetener, that added sweetener could include honey or barley malt, most likely also in a dry form. Honey comes in many different colors as does the barley malt but they both can be used with molasses. There are other possible sweeteners but they would have to be unrefined. MM has lived with the molasses story for so long and is part of their dough's DNA and accepted by everyone as a unique and distinguishing feature that there would be little point in changing that story at this time.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #239 on: October 03, 2011, 12:21:21 PM »
Here are my results from the modified MM#2 attempt last night.

To recap, here is the formula I used, with the Germ shown as a separate ingredient:
High Gluten Flour = 100%
Wheat Germ = 2.0%
Spring Water = 54.0%
IDY = 0.37%
Salt = 2.0%
Soybean Oil = 3.0%
Liquid Molasses = 5.0%
TOTAL = 166.37%

1) Temper - the dough was tempered at about 69 degrees for 1.5 hours.  I left it in the container this time.  Sometimes I'll remove it from the container completely and cover with plastic wrap, but not this time. The dough didn't seem to have risen as much before the temper as perhaps other doughs, and after the temper it didn't seem to have grown much.  I didn't measure the temp of the dough, but it was cool-ish to the touch.

2) Skin prep - The dough I think was close to the perfect amount of extensibility.  It was not as loose or gassy as previous doughs.  After dusting with cornmeal, I formed a rim as I did in my last attempt and stretched it out to about 8-10'' on the counter using my hands.  It was fairly cooperative.  I then picked it up and slapped it a couple times, then twirled it a bit, then moved on to a few full tosses.  The tosses weren't proving to be super useful, so I then stretched it over my fists for a bit.  This dough was probably the most tolerant dough I've handled. ..I had no fears about it tearing or anything.  It was really fun to work with.  I don't know how much was due to the cooler temperature of the dough versus the lower hydration.  Some of both, I suppose.

3) Baking - I had been able to preheat my stone on the lowest rack position for about 1.5 hours this time.  No "superheating" tricks.  I moved the stone to the second-highest rack position in order to get a better convergence of crust and topping doneness.  I think this was a good move.  I baked it for 8 minutes.  The oven spring was excellent this time (I was afraid a bit because the rim I formed on the skin didn't seem particularly big).  It probably could have been pulled at 7 minutes, but I would not call the pie overbaked.  I brushed with melted Earth Balance spread plus a little garlic powder.  No Parm.

4) Observations - The rim puffed-up quite nicely and the crumb structure was good.  Fairly open and bubbly but nothing too crazy.  I'm having a hard time judging the crumb structure and texture to the real MM because those qualities don't stick in one's mind as much as flavor or aroma.

5) Taste - The good news is that I think the reduced Germ was a good move - I did not taste the pronounced savory/nutty flavor as I did last week.  The bad news is that the crust was not noticeably sweet.  Honestly it was a pretty blah-tasting crust.  It performed great, but the taste was not MM-like.  I could taste a hint of the molasses in the crunchier parts of the outer crust, but that was about it.  I'm thinking at this point that my tastebuds were simply not calibrated when I said my first MM attempt was sweet, because this formula was almost identical and I did not detect sweetness anywhere near the degree of the real MM.  

I think at this point if you increased the Molasses, it would change the color too much to the point of not resembling an MM dough at all.  Therefore, I think they must be using some additional sweetener or a different sweetener altogether.  My gut is probably leaning towards honey (based partially on some flatbread I made recently from BBA that included honey).  The Southerner in me wants to think it's sorghum, but not sure.  I may try that one day just for kicks, because I love sorghum (and molasses).
I noticed Norma mentioned barley malt.  I have both diastatic barley malt powder and a jar of barley malt syrup.  I also thought about the latter for use in an MM dough.  It would, I think, give the dough a more golden color which I tend to associate with MM.  I think you could use more of it without making the dough too brown.  Also, Barley Malt Syrup is considered a "healthy" sweetener by vegans and such because it is more of a "whole food" and less refined.  However, all of this speculation makes you wonder why so many sources talk about "molasses" in the dough. 

I may post some pics from last night, but they're nothing really new.

Biz,

Sounds like your MM dough went extremely well, and it could be opened well.  :) Your formula is almost like the one I am trying for tomorrow, except for the wheat germ amount.  I still also wonder about how to get the sweetness level right, even though I don’t know what it supposed to be. Great to hear your rim puffed-up nicely.  I would like to see your photos if you are able to post them. I think based on your results I won’t let my dough temper too long.

BTW, if anyone is interested I finally was able to request some ADM 65 Spray-Dried Molasses, but had to find another place to send my request for a sample, because the other place at http://www.adm.com/en-us/Products/_layouts/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=716  still wouldn’t let me request the ADM 65 DMP. 
This is where I filled out the form for the sample.  http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/drysweeteners/Pages/Molasses.aspx after I clicked on contacts under the dry sweeteners on the right side.  At least I received a confirmation email right after I filled out the form and typed the characters in, so I will wait and see if I get the sample.

Norma
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Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #240 on: October 03, 2011, 01:34:17 PM »
Thanks Peter and Norma!

Yeah, I hate having to recant an earlier statement, but having tasted real MM more recently, I think the 5% range molasses is not enough to get the level of sweetness I tasted at the restaurant.

So for my part at this point, I think we have the color close.  If you recall on my previous attempt I had some leftover MM crust and compared the color - it was basically identical.  Having an MM dough ball would be preferable, but based on what I saw in the restaurant I think our dough color is pretty close too.  This is much harder to affirm, though, since visual memory isn't all that reliable.

At any rate, again I think we have the color pretty well, it's just the sweetness that is lacking.  Increasing the molasses would push the needle on the color too far, so it seems there's got to be another sweetener (or I suppose a difference in dough prep that would retain more of the molasses's sweetness).

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #241 on: October 03, 2011, 02:04:32 PM »
Biz,

Based on what we have learned to date, and ignoring the matter of dough color, and pending Norma's results using a defrosted dough ball, I would venture to say that if you use more molasses, say 7-8%, you would still perhaps not achieve the degree of sweetness we both detected with a real MM crust. You would get more molasses flavor, and your end pizza might still be a terrific one, but the crust might not be as sweet as an MM crust. But, before we become too aggressive on this point, let's wait for Norma's results to be on the safe side. Remember, the owner/manager of one of the MM units said that there was just a "touch" of molasses and a "hint" of sweetness. That was for a dough that takes two days to be ready to be use. Maybe he has experienced the same chemistry as you and Norma have with your MM clones. Usually, high levels of sugar (sucrose) in a dough do not disappear quickly but maybe the case is different using molasses.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #242 on: October 03, 2011, 04:33:29 PM »
After my last post, I wondered how a fixed weight of table sugar (sucrose) and a fixed weight of molasses would break down into the different forms of sugars. As it turns out, sucrose (granulated table sugar) is 100% sucrose (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5592/2). By contrast, liquid molasses contains three different sugars—sucrose, glucose and fructose. The glucose and fructose are reducing sugars so they are immediately available to yeast in a dough as food. The sucrose, which is a complex sugar (that is, it is a disaccharide and not a reducing sugar), has to be hydrolyzed (by enzymatic action) to the reducing sugars glucose and fructose before they can be used by the yeast as food. These actions are all described in detail at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm.

From what I learned at the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5573/2, molasses is about 55.5% sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose). The rest is water, ash (which gives the molasses it's color) and small amounts of other elements. I was not able to quickly find the percents of the three sugars in molasses but I did read that there is more sucrose than the two other sugars and I found one old report that broke down molasses into about 32% sucrose, 14% glucose and 16% fructose.

Applying the above numbers to a 10-gram sample of ordinary table sugar (sucrose) and to a 10-gram sample of molasses, and assuming my numbers and calculations are correct, the full 10 grams of table sugar is 10 grams sucrose, and for the 10-gram molasses sample it would be 1.78 grams sucrose, 0.77 grams glucose and 0.89 grams fructose (for a total of 5.50 grams). We already know that molasses is less sweet than sucrose (member November also tells us this at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34741/topicseen.html#msg34741), but the above numbers would seem to suggest that it would take a lot more molasses to equal sucrose as a sweetener. Now, if one were to flash freeze a dough ball with molasses right after the dough ball has been made so that there is no fermentation, and then defrosts the dough ball for the minimum recommended time (maybe a day at best), with gradual fermentation during the defrosting step (note that November tells us in the abovereferenced post that molasses ferments at a slower rate than sucrose), then maybe more of the sugars in the molasses will be available at the time of use to provide the optimum amount of sweetness that molasses can deliver in a pizza dough application. This is essentially the test that I believe Norma will be conducting.

Peter

EDIT (10/5/2011): According to member November's post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1272.msg31890.html#msg31890, molasses comprises 29% sucrose, 13% fructose, 12% glucose, 22% water, 24% other. That changes the above quantities of sucrose, glucose and fructose in a 10-gram sample of molasses to 1.6 grams sucrose, 0.66 grams glucose, and 0.72 grams fructose.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 12:50:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #243 on: October 03, 2011, 06:45:47 PM »
After my last post, I wondered how a fixed weight of table sugar (sucrose) and a fixed weight of molasses would break down into the different forms of sugars. As it turns out, sucrose (granulated table sugar) is 100% sucrose (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5592/2). By contrast, liquid molasses contains three different sugars—sucrose, glucose and fructose. The glucose and fructose are reducing sugars so they are immediately available to yeast in a dough as food. The sucrose, which is a complex sugar (that is, it is a disaccharide and not a reducing sugar), has to be hydrolyzed (by enzymatic action) to the reducing sugars glucose and fructose before they can be used by the yeast as food. These actions are all described in detail at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm.

From what I learned at the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5573/2, molasses is about 55.5% sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose). The rest is water, ash, and small amounts of other elements. I was not able to quickly find the percents of the three sugars in molasses but I did read that there is more sucrose than the two other sugars and I found one old report that broke down molasses into about 32% sucrose, 14% glucose and 16% fructose.

Applying the above numbers to a 10-gram sample of ordinary table sugar (sucrose) and to a 10-gram sample of molasses, and assuming my numbers and calculations are correct, the full 10 grams of table sugar is 10 grams sucrose, and for the 10-gram molasses sample it would be 1.78 grams sucrose, 0.77 grams glucose and 0.89 grams fructose (for a total of 5.50 grams). We already know that molasses is less sweet than sucrose (member November also tells us this at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34741/topicseen.html#msg34741), but the above numbers would seem to suggest that it would take a lot more molasses to equal sucrose as a sweetener. Now, if one were to flash freeze a dough ball with molasses right after the dough ball has been made so that there is no fermentation, and then defrosts the dough ball for the minimum recommended time (maybe a day at best), with gradual fermentation during the defrosting step (note that November tells us in the abovereferenced post that molasses ferments at a slower rate than sucrose), then maybe more of the sugars in the molasses will be available at the time of use to provide the optimum amount of sweetness that molasses can deliver in a pizza dough application. This is essentially the test that I believe Norma will be conducting.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the all the information about how different regular table sugar is from molasses and also November’s posts on sugar and molasses.  It does seem from your numbers that it would take a lot more molasses to equal sucrose as a sweetener.  You did great detective work today.

I will see how my experiment works out tomorrow.  The dough ball was frozen rather quickly in my static freezer.  I know that isn’t like blast freezing, but might work to see if there are more available sugars left in the dough so there might be more sweetness in the crust.  The MM# 2 dough ball is in my pizza prep fridge and that is now kept at about 37 degrees F, so the dough ball should slowly defrost. 

I took a picture of the dough ball today when I arrived at market.  This is the picture of the frozen MM# 2 dough ball.  I will try to make the pizza about 24 hrs. after the dough ball was placed in the pizza prep fridge. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #244 on: October 04, 2011, 06:53:36 AM »
I know this probably isn’t what Mellow Mushroom uses for their dough to give it a sweet taste in the crust, but wouldn’t milk sugar (lactose dry) or maybe sweet whey powder, give the crust a sweeter flavor in combination with molasses?  The only reason I am mentioning this is after looking at this article.  http://www.alabev.com/mellow_mushroom_southside.htm
and seeing the Milk Stout has milk sugar in the beer, to impart a sweeter taste. I then only did a brief search and saw patents for yeast leavened dough that did include milk sugar to impart sweetness in the crust.  http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100143534 One part of the patent that interested me was at [0040], or this patent with lactose. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0143534.html
I know these patents aren’t what MM is using, but wondered if there is any possibility that dry lactose could be used in a dry MM premix?  This is probably a far-out idea, but I just thought I would ask.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #245 on: October 04, 2011, 08:31:09 AM »
I know this probably isn’t what Mellow Mushroom uses for their dough to give it a sweet taste in the crust, but wouldn’t milk sugar (lactose dry) or maybe sweet whey powder, give the crust a sweeter flavor in combination with molasses?

Norma,

That is good thinking but remember that MM's dough is vegan (see capersmama's MM post at http://www.vegfamily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503&page=2), and lactose (natural) and whey (which is about 70% lactose) are animal-based. The MM dough has to be vegan since it wouldn't make sense to offer vegan options like Daiya cheese if the dough itself isn't vegan. Also, of all of the simple sugars, lactose has the lowest sweetness factor. As you may recall from some of your preferment Lehmann dough experiments, lactose and whey are often used to get better crust browning without adding much in the way of sweetness to the finished crust. There are far better choices to get increased sweetness, like fructose, which has 1.3 times the sweetness factor of sucrose (granulated table sugar).

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #246 on: October 04, 2011, 01:31:37 PM »
Norma and Biz,

For a broad overview of liquid sweeteners, you might find this article from BakingBusiness.com of interest: http://www.bakingbusiness.com/News/News%20Home/Trends/2009/12/When%20Sugar%20Flows.aspx?p=1.

For some additional information on the use of honey, molasses and sorghum syrup, see the article at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2010/9/Ingr%20R-and-D%20Sweeteners.aspx?racategory=Sweetener%20Substitutes. Note, in particular, the discussion on molasses. See, also, the article at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/News/News%20Home/Trends/2009/12/Honeyed%20Choices.aspx?p=1

I also found a commercial source for sorghum syrup, Briess Malt & Ingredients Co,  whose product is briefly described at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Resources/Innovation%20Center/2010/11/Briess%20gluten-free%20sorghum%20syrup.aspx. You will want to note that the sorghum syrup is considered as a substitute for liquid malt products. It is not mentioned as a sugar replacement. More information on the Briess sorghum syrup is provided at the Briess website at http://www.briess.com/food/Products/nswss.php.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #247 on: October 04, 2011, 09:51:07 PM »
The experimental MM# 2 dough went well today, in terms of the dough not being extensible, and the pie being tasty.  I let the dough ball warm up for 1 ½ hrs, until the dough ball reached 56.8 degrees F.  It was cooler at market this week.  

Steve and I had to get ready again for this experimental pie.  The stickers were placed on the cutting board, I applied one tattoo and we got the signs ready.  Steve and I put the pictures I had printed out on the Plexiglas.  Steve brought a bottle of home brewed beer, so we would be like MM and have beer.  He brought some kind of Belgian Strong Ale called something like Dieu Du Ciel, meaning “sample of heaven”, but I can’t get the first name of the beer spelled right, because I am not familiar with home brewed beers.  There were two supermen on the pictures, one being Peter, and the other superman was the shroom.  They both were watching what we were doing.  

The dough ball did stretch out very nicely, and could be tossed and twirled.  I did tossed and twirl the skin, but I am still throwing vertical.  Steve did take a video of me tossing and twirling the skin, and I uploaded it, but YouTube is now performing site maintenance.  As soon as I can post the video I will.

The MM# 2 skin was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, spinach, apple sausage, salami (I had baked in the oven) and part skim milk mozzarella.  The pie was baked in 5 ½ minutes at about 525 degrees F.  Then melted butter with garlic powder and parmesan cheese was applied, after the pie came out of the oven.

The only part of this experiment that didn’t go well, was there was no more sweetness in the crust than my last attempts.  The pizza and the beer did go well together though.

Peter, thanks for he references about the information of liquid sweeteners.  I will have to read that more in detail tomorrow.  The Briess Sorghum syrup seems interesting.  I would like to see how your experiment works out and see if you can detect enough sweetness in the dough you made.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #248 on: October 04, 2011, 09:55:27 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #249 on: October 04, 2011, 09:57:10 PM »
Norma
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