Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[Biz Markie]

Thanks Peter and Norma!

Yeah, I hate having to recant an earlier statement, but having tasted real MM more recently, I think the 5% range molasses is not enough to get the level of sweetness I tasted at the restaurant.

So for my part at this point, I think we have the color close.  If you recall on my previous attempt I had some leftover MM crust and compared the color - it was basically identical.  Having an MM dough ball would be preferable, but based on what I saw in the restaurant I think our dough color is pretty close too.  This is much harder to affirm, though, since visual memory isn't all that reliable.

At any rate, again I think we have the color pretty well, it's just the sweetness that is lacking.  Increasing the molasses would push the needle on the color too far, so it seems there's got to be another sweetener (or I suppose a difference in dough prep that would retain more of the molasses's sweetness).

[Pete-zza]

Biz,

Based on what we have learned to date, and ignoring the matter of dough color, and pending Norma's results using a defrosted dough ball, I would venture to say that if you use more molasses, say 7-8%, you would still perhaps not achieve the degree of sweetness we both detected with a real MM crust. You would get more molasses flavor, and your end pizza might still be a terrific one, but the crust might not be as sweet as an MM crust. But, before we become too aggressive on this point, let's wait for Norma's results to be on the safe side. Remember, the owner/manager of one of the MM units said that there was just a "touch" of molasses and a "hint" of sweetness. That was for a dough that takes two days to be ready to be use. Maybe he has experienced the same chemistry as you and Norma have with your MM clones. Usually, high levels of sugar (sucrose) in a dough do not disappear quickly but maybe the case is different using molasses.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

After my last post, I wondered how a fixed weight of table sugar (sucrose) and a fixed weight of molasses would break down into the different forms of sugars. As it turns out, sucrose (granulated table sugar) is 100% sucrose (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5592/2). By contrast, liquid molasses contains three different sugars—sucrose, glucose and fructose. The glucose and fructose are reducing sugars so they are immediately available to yeast in a dough as food. The sucrose, which is a complex sugar (that is, it is a disaccharide and not a reducing sugar), has to be hydrolyzed (by enzymatic action) to the reducing sugars glucose and fructose before they can be used by the yeast as food. These actions are all described in detail at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm.

From what I learned at the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5573/2, molasses is about 55.5% sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose). The rest is water, ash (which gives the molasses it's color) and small amounts of other elements. I was not able to quickly find the percents of the three sugars in molasses but I did read that there is more sucrose than the two other sugars and I found one old report that broke down molasses into about 32% sucrose, 14% glucose and 16% fructose.

Applying the above numbers to a 10-gram sample of ordinary table sugar (sucrose) and to a 10-gram sample of molasses, and assuming my numbers and calculations are correct, the full 10 grams of table sugar is 10 grams sucrose, and for the 10-gram molasses sample it would be 1.78 grams sucrose, 0.77 grams glucose and 0.89 grams fructose (for a total of 5.50 grams). We already know that molasses is less sweet than sucrose (member November also tells us this at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34741/topicseen.html#msg34741), but the above numbers would seem to suggest that it would take a lot more molasses to equal sucrose as a sweetener. Now, if one were to flash freeze a dough ball with molasses right after the dough ball has been made so that there is no fermentation, and then defrosts the dough ball for the minimum recommended time (maybe a day at best), with gradual fermentation during the defrosting step (note that November tells us in the abovereferenced post that molasses ferments at a slower rate than sucrose), then maybe more of the sugars in the molasses will be available at the time of use to provide the optimum amount of sweetness that molasses can deliver in a pizza dough application. This is essentially the test that I believe Norma will be conducting.

Peter

EDIT (10/5/2011): According to member November's post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1272.msg31890.html#msg31890, molasses comprises 29% sucrose, 13% fructose, 12% glucose, 22% water, 24% other. That changes the above quantities of sucrose, glucose and fructose in a 10-gram sample of molasses to 1.6 grams sucrose, 0.66 grams glucose, and 0.72 grams fructose.

[norma427]

After my last post, I wondered how a fixed weight of table sugar (sucrose) and a fixed weight of molasses would break down into the different forms of sugars. As it turns out, sucrose (granulated table sugar) is 100% sucrose (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5592/2). By contrast, liquid molasses contains three different sugars—sucrose, glucose and fructose. The glucose and fructose are reducing sugars so they are immediately available to yeast in a dough as food. The sucrose, which is a complex sugar (that is, it is a disaccharide and not a reducing sugar), has to be hydrolyzed (by enzymatic action) to the reducing sugars glucose and fructose before they can be used by the yeast as food. These actions are all described in detail at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm.

From what I learned at the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5573/2, molasses is about 55.5% sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose). The rest is water, ash, and small amounts of other elements. I was not able to quickly find the percents of the three sugars in molasses but I did read that there is more sucrose than the two other sugars and I found one old report that broke down molasses into about 32% sucrose, 14% glucose and 16% fructose.

Applying the above numbers to a 10-gram sample of ordinary table sugar (sucrose) and to a 10-gram sample of molasses, and assuming my numbers and calculations are correct, the full 10 grams of table sugar is 10 grams sucrose, and for the 10-gram molasses sample it would be 1.78 grams sucrose, 0.77 grams glucose and 0.89 grams fructose (for a total of 5.50 grams). We already know that molasses is less sweet than sucrose (member November also tells us this at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34741/topicseen.html#msg34741), but the above numbers would seem to suggest that it would take a lot more molasses to equal sucrose as a sweetener. Now, if one were to flash freeze a dough ball with molasses right after the dough ball has been made so that there is no fermentation, and then defrosts the dough ball for the minimum recommended time (maybe a day at best), with gradual fermentation during the defrosting step (note that November tells us in the abovereferenced post that molasses ferments at a slower rate than sucrose), then maybe more of the sugars in the molasses will be available at the time of use to provide the optimum amount of sweetness that molasses can deliver in a pizza dough application. This is essentially the test that I believe Norma will be conducting.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the all the information about how different regular table sugar is from molasses and also November’s posts on sugar and molasses.  It does seem from your numbers that it would take a lot more molasses to equal sucrose as a sweetener.  You did great detective work today.

I will see how my experiment works out tomorrow.  The dough ball was frozen rather quickly in my static freezer.  I know that isn’t like blast freezing, but might work to see if there are more available sugars left in the dough so there might be more sweetness in the crust.  The MM# 2 dough ball is in my pizza prep fridge and that is now kept at about 37 degrees F, so the dough ball should slowly defrost. 

I took a picture of the dough ball today when I arrived at market.  This is the picture of the frozen MM# 2 dough ball.  I will try to make the pizza about 24 hrs. after the dough ball was placed in the pizza prep fridge. 

Norma

[norma427]

I know this probably isn’t what Mellow Mushroom uses for their dough to give it a sweet taste in the crust, but wouldn’t milk sugar (lactose dry) or maybe sweet whey powder, give the crust a sweeter flavor in combination with molasses?  The only reason I am mentioning this is after looking at this article.  http://www.alabev.com/mellow_mushroom_southside.htm
and seeing the Milk Stout has milk sugar in the beer, to impart a sweeter taste. I then only did a brief search and saw patents for yeast leavened dough that did include milk sugar to impart sweetness in the crust.  http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100143534 One part of the patent that interested me was at [0040], or this patent with lactose. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0143534.html
I know these patents aren’t what MM is using, but wondered if there is any possibility that dry lactose could be used in a dry MM premix?  This is probably a far-out idea, but I just thought I would ask.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I know this probably isn’t what Mellow Mushroom uses for their dough to give it a sweet taste in the crust, but wouldn’t milk sugar (lactose dry) or maybe sweet whey powder, give the crust a sweeter flavor in combination with molasses?

Norma,

That is good thinking but remember that MM's dough is vegan (see capersmama's MM post at http://www.vegfamily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503&page=2), and lactose (natural) and whey (which is about 70% lactose) are animal-based. The MM dough has to be vegan since it wouldn't make sense to offer vegan options like Daiya cheese if the dough itself isn't vegan. Also, of all of the simple sugars, lactose has the lowest sweetness factor. As you may recall from some of your preferment Lehmann dough experiments, lactose and whey are often used to get better crust browning without adding much in the way of sweetness to the finished crust. There are far better choices to get increased sweetness, like fructose, which has 1.3 times the sweetness factor of sucrose (granulated table sugar).

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma and Biz,

For a broad overview of liquid sweeteners, you might find this article from BakingBusiness.com of interest: http://www.bakingbusiness.com/News/News%20Home/Trends/2009/12/When%20Sugar%20Flows.aspx?p=1.

For some additional information on the use of honey, molasses and sorghum syrup, see the article at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2010/9/Ingr%20R-and-D%20Sweeteners.aspx?racategory=Sweetener%20Substitutes. Note, in particular, the discussion on molasses. See, also, the article at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/News/News%20Home/Trends/2009/12/Honeyed%20Choices.aspx?p=1. 

I also found a commercial source for sorghum syrup, Briess Malt & Ingredients Co,  whose product is briefly described at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Resources/Innovation%20Center/2010/11/Briess%20gluten-free%20sorghum%20syrup.aspx. You will want to note that the sorghum syrup is considered as a substitute for liquid malt products. It is not mentioned as a sugar replacement. More information on the Briess sorghum syrup is provided at the Briess website at http://www.briess.com/food/Products/nswss.php.

Peter

[norma427]

The experimental MM# 2 dough went well today, in terms of the dough not being extensible, and the pie being tasty.  I let the dough ball warm up for 1 ½ hrs, until the dough ball reached 56.8 degrees F.  It was cooler at market this week.  

Steve and I had to get ready again for this experimental pie.  The stickers were placed on the cutting board, I applied one tattoo and we got the signs ready.  Steve and I put the pictures I had printed out on the Plexiglas.  Steve brought a bottle of home brewed beer, so we would be like MM and have beer.  He brought some kind of Belgian Strong Ale called something like Dieu Du Ciel, meaning “sample of heaven”, but I can’t get the first name of the beer spelled right, because I am not familiar with home brewed beers.  There were two supermen on the pictures, one being Peter, and the other superman was the shroom.  They both were watching what we were doing.  

The dough ball did stretch out very nicely, and could be tossed and twirled.  I did tossed and twirl the skin, but I am still throwing vertical.  Steve did take a video of me tossing and twirling the skin, and I uploaded it, but YouTube is now performing site maintenance.  As soon as I can post the video I will.

The MM# 2 skin was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, spinach, apple sausage, salami (I had baked in the oven) and part skim milk mozzarella.  The pie was baked in 5 ½ minutes at about 525 degrees F.  Then melted butter with garlic powder and parmesan cheese was applied, after the pie came out of the oven.

The only part of this experiment that didn’t go well, was there was no more sweetness in the crust than my last attempts.  The pizza and the beer did go well together though.

Peter, thanks for he references about the information of liquid sweeteners.  I will have to read that more in detail tomorrow.  The Briess Sorghum syrup seems interesting.  I would like to see how your experiment works out and see if you can detect enough sweetness in the dough you made.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

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[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

On my Youtube account, I can now edit my videos, so I edited the video of tossing and twirling the MM# 2 dough that Steve took, to look somewhat like psychedelic “hippy look” to keep in the theme of MM pizza businesses.  I can’t toss and twirl dough, but at least this video will show how strong the dough was.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beBtRT_7Cew" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beBtRT_7Cew</a>

I receive an email this morning from Aaron Weldy about the sample request of SWEETNNEAT 65 dry molasses.  I was approved for the sample request and got a tracking number.  It said in the email I will get the MSDS, technical papers, and COA.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you for conducting the latest experiment with the frozen MM clone dough ball and for your clever use of production values in keeping with the MM hippy/psychedelic theme. It was especially good to see from the video you posted that the dough handled beautifully and also that you were able to open up the defrosted dough ball at a temperature of about 57 degrees F. That suggests that maybe we have a robust MM clone dough with a workable effective hydration that permits use whether the dough is warm or cool, much as we have speculated from the MM videos we have seen.

I had been hoping against hope that you would get the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust, but in anticipation that you wouldn't I had already started to think ahead to the next step. And that is the use of the ADM SWEET'N'NEAT 65 dry molasses powder. That product is supposed to be a tan-colored molasses. If so, it may be possible to use a lot more molasses to overcome its limited inherent capacity to produce sweetness while at the same time not producing an overly dark dough, as we have experienced when using standard supermarket brands of liquid molasses. Once we see what the SWEET'N'NEAT 65 dry molasses product looks like, and you have a chance to taste it, we can attempt a modified MM clone dough formulation using that product.

Would you mind describing the characteristics of the crust from the latest experiment and whether you liked the pizza and, if not, why not?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you for conducting the latest experiment with the frozen MM clone dough ball and for your clever use of production values in keeping with the MM hippy/psychedelic theme. It was especially good to see from the video you posted that the dough handled beautifully and also that you were able to open up the defrosted dough ball at a temperature of about 57 degrees F. That suggests that maybe we have a robust MM clone dough with a workable effective hydration that permits use whether the dough is warm or cool, much as we have speculated from the MM videos we have seen.

I had been hoping against hope that you would get the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust, but in anticipation that you wouldn't I had already started to think ahead to the next step. And that is the use of the ADM SWEET'N'NEAT 65 dry molasses powder. That product is supposed to be a tan-colored molasses. If so, it may be possible to use a lot more molasses to overcome its limited inherent capacity to produce sweetness while at the same time not producing an overly dark dough, as we have experienced when using standard supermarket brands of liquid molasses. Once we see what the SWEET'N'NEAT 65 dry molasses product looks like, and you have a chance to taste it, we can attempt a modified MM clone dough formulation using that product.

Would you mind describing the characteristics of the crust from the latest experiment and whether you liked the pizza and, if not, why not?

Peter

Peter,

I was glad the dough handled so well yesterday, even though I can’t toss or twirl the dough right.  Biz reported the same thing in his last attempt.  I do think your formula you set-forth does give a robust MM clone dough, and I think it would be okay to use when it was warmer than when I used the dough.

I was also hoping from the experiment, that the crust would get sweeter from using those methods too, but that was not meant to be, at least in my experiment. I will be interested when you make your pizza from your frozen dough ball what you perceive the sweetness level to be.  I know all of our tastes in sweetness are different, but so far Biz and I don’t think the sweetness was enough.  I know I haven’t ever tried a real MM pizza though.

I didn’t know you had been thinking ahead to using the SWEETNNEAT 65 DMP for the next formulation attempt, if my experiment didn’t work out.  What are you going to suggest for Biz to use in his next attempt?  Last evening I used the contact feature and requested a sample of the Briess sorghum syrup.  I don’t know if I will be able to get a sample of their sorghum syrup.  

What do you really think MM’s operations were using for sweetness in their dough, when they first opened? Do you really have any ideas about that?  I don’t think many of the commercials products that are out now were available back then.

The crust characteristics were the crust was soft, on the outside of the rim.  I could poke the crust and it would spring back.  I am not sure if that is how a real MM crust is or not.  The bottom crust had a little crunch, but not too much. The bottom crust was a little crunchy when cut, but did become softer as it sat. Even when eating one slice of the experiment, it seemed to make Steve and me feel full, even though we hadn’t eaten any other experiments before that.  I don’t understand that either.  Steve, the taste testers, and I did like the pizza, but I am not sure if that is because it is really different, or because we really liked it.  The taste of the rim with the melted butter with garlic powder and Parmesan cheese really adds to the taste of the whole pizza  We liked the amount of sweetness in the crust, but know that must not be how a real MM crust tastes.  Steve and I am not sure if we would like a sweeter crust.  There wasn’t anything about the crust we didn’t like.  There really wasn’t any chew in the crust and the rim was somewhat moist.

I brought home a few slices to reheat, so I will see if I can detect any more sweetness in the reheat.

Norma

[Tampa]

Norma, I like the looks of that pie ... but I love that video even more.  You're a gem.
Dave

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I thought that it was important to conduct the experiment you conducted if only to rule out the possibility that the sweetness deteriorates with the age of the dough. But using the "process of elimination" approach is a perfectly viable problem-solving method. So, for now, it looks like we can rule out the aging of the dough as a proximate cause of the reduction in sweetness of the finished crust.

I am not sure what I will suggest to Biz next time inasmuch as we are limited to the ingredients that are available to us on the supermarket shelves. If it turns out that the SWEET'N'NEAT 65 product (which I will now call ADM 65 DMP) works out and gives the desired degree of sweetness, our members won't be able to benefit because of lack of access to that product. However, that might open up other solutions, like using both molasses and honey as I mentioned to you earlier when you were concerned because the ADM 4000 DMP product did not taste sweet. If push comes to shove, we can always add sugar. I have never really bought into the idea that refined sugar, especially when used in moderation, is some kind of imperfect or unhealthy or evil form of sugar as to be scrupulously avoided.

I, too, wondered what kinds of ingredients MM used way back in 1974. I cannot imagine that there haven't been many changes in the MM dough formulation over the ensuing 37 years, many of which no doubt came into being when they had enough stores to justify the investment in the commissary. MM has stuck with its "molasses" story throughout its existence and has publicly touted the molasses in its marketing and in its stores as a signature and differentiating feature of its dough and pizza crust. However, that doesn't preclude using other forms of sugar (unrefined) in the MM dough. That is where your experiment with the ADM 65 DMP might be instructive. For example, if you are able to dramatically increase the amount of ADM 65 DMP without overly darkening the dough (because of its tan color) and you still don't get the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust, then that should tell us that either MM uses a materially sweeter molasses than we have been able to find or they are using another sweetener in the dough besides the molasses. It could even be raw cane sugar (unrefined/unprocessed), which I believe would be cheaper to use than molasses or sorghum syrup or barley malt syrup or any other form of "natural" sweetener, liquid or dry, yet would retain some of the molasses flavor and its color contribution.

BTW, yesterday I came upon the following informative thread on molasses at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1272.msg11417.html#msg11417. Note, in particular member November's posts at Replies 4 and 6. I completely forgot about the above thread. I edited Reply 42 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg155447.html#msg155447 to reflect the new information.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

The pie was baked in 5 ½ minutes at about 525 degrees F.

Norma,

In my experience working with high sugar doughs, like the Papa John's clone doughs, I found that it is best not to bake the pizzas at too high a temperature and/or for too short a period of time. Otherwise, the rim of the crust can be too soft and a bit shy in the color department even though the bottom crust can be quite dark (because of the high oven temperature). When I found that the bottoms of the high-sugar crusts darkened too quickly, I would lift the pizzas up to a higher oven rack position to keep the bottom crust from burning and to get more top crust color development. This was in my home oven, of course, but with your deck oven at market you would perhaps just use a lower bake temperature and a correspondingly longer bake time. In this context, you might recall that Justin in the video at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvixfngmz-g&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvixfngmz-g&amp;feature=related</a>

says that the pizza in the video is baked at 475 degrees F for 20 minutes, in what appears to be a Montague oven. That seems like a long bake time, even for a 16" pizza with all of the toppings, so in your case you may have to experiment with the best combination of bake temperature and bake time in your Bakers Pride deck oven at market.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma, I like the looks of that pie ... but I love that video even more.  You're a gem.
Dave

Dave,

Thanks for saying you loved the video!    I really don't like to show how bad I am at tossing or twirling the dough, but did want to show how well the dough handled.  Since this MM pizza cloning project was about MM's operations, I knew my videos could be changed, but never tried that before.  I went with the "hippy"  look in the video.     My one taste tester was watching me try to twirl the dough, and he had to look away because he and I knew, he would have me laughing in the video.

Norma