Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I would hold the decision on the ADM Dri-mol products in abeyance, pending the results you get with the ADM 65 DMP product.

I also tried to magnify the photos you enlarged but could not make out the wording on the bags of flour.

I will kick around some ideas for the next MM clone dough formulation for you to test out using the ADM 65 DMP product.

I noticed that Biz made mention of an MM commissary somewhere around Nashville. I thought that MM has only one commissary, somewhere in the Atlanta area. If there were one near the last MM store Biz visited, I think they would have had fresh dough balls, not frozen ones.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Not to take away from the conversation, but I find if I add Non-Diastatic Malt powder to my doughs it imparts more sweetness than it does malt flavor. This is using the KA variety.

[norma427]

Norma,

I will kick around some ideas for the next MM clone dough formulation for you to test out using the ADM 65 DMP product.

I noticed that Biz made mention of an MM commissary somewhere around Nashville. I thought that MM has only one commissary, somewhere in the Atlanta area. If there were one near the last MM store Biz visited, I think they would have had fresh dough balls, not frozen ones.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying you will kick around some ideas for the next MM clone dough formulation for me to test out using the ADM 65 DMP products.

I haven’t read a lot about how many commissaries MM’s has or doen’t have.  I have wondered about that myself.  The only thing I did read about was that I guess MM’s does have a training store in Douglasville, Ga.  With all the new pizza businesses MM’s is opening, there has to be MM’s locations that either make their own dough,  or has somewhere near them make the dough for them. It would be interesting to hear if Biz knows more about a Nashville commissary.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I have set forth below for your consideration a proposed MM dough clone formulation using the ADM 65 DMP product. To avoid confusion with the other MM clone dough formulations, I will refer to it as the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone Formulation. Even though the spec sheets for the ADM 65 DMP product do not say to use a half to 100% of the weight of the ADM 65 DMP product as added water, as did the spec sheets for the ADM 4000 DMP product, I decided that I would do as I did before and use more water with the ADM 65 DMP product (50%) on the basis that both products are dry. You will also note that I specify 0.60% IDY in the dough formulation. That increase is to compensate for any potential effects on yeast performance due the large amount of total sugars (4% of the ADM 65 DMP product and 4% raw cane sugar) and also to compensate for some expected loss of IDY yeast cells due to freezing. The higher IDY value might also give the dough more rise during baking. Of course, the oven spring will also be highly dependent on the oven temperature and how the skin is shaped to create a large rim.

Since the ADM 65 DMP product is being used for the first time, and although it looks to be a bit lighter in color than the ADM 4000 DMP product, you might want to monitor the color of the finished dough so that it approximates the color of a brown coffee filter (it should be somewhat lighter than a brown paper bag).

In the new dough formulation presented below, I calculate an “effective” hydration of around 56.8%. That takes into account the effects of the addition of the raw cane sugar and the oil. I think that that value of effective hydration should yield a workable dough but you should use your best judgment when using your KitchenAid stand mixer and make any hydration adjustments that you deem necessary. This would be in addition to trying to achieve the desired degree of coloration of the dough.

In preparing the dough, you will want to pulverize the toasted wheat germ. I believe that you can use the volume measurements for the raw cane sugar, but because the raw cane sugar has a larger particle size than ordinary table sugar, you might want to weigh out the raw cane sugar. I deleted the volume measurements in the dough formulation for the molasses, as I did the last time.

Once the dough has been made, you will want to freeze it as soon as you can and use it as you did your last frozen dough ball. Hopefully this time you will be able to get a sweeter crust.

MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone Formulation

Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Spring Water (57%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%): Raw Cane Sugar (4%): ADM 65 DMP (4%): Total (169.6%):

305.4 g  |  10.77 oz | 0.67 lbs 174.08 g  |  6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs 1.83 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp 6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 12.22 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.06 tsp | 1.02 tbsp 12.22 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684

*The Unbleached High-Gluten/Wheat Germ Blend comprises 296.2 grams (10.45 ounces) of unbleached (unbromated) high-gluten flour and 9.16 grams (0.32 ounces) of pulverized toasted wheat germ, based on a ratio of 97% high-gluten flour and 3% wheat germ.
Note: The nominal thickness factor = 0.11693 and corresponds to a dough ball weight of 18 ounces, for a single 14” pizza; the amount of water added due to use of the dry ADM 65 DMP product is 50% of the weight of that product; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for setting-forth the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone Formulation.  That was fast!  I can understand why you specified to use 0.60% IDY to compensate for any potential effects on yeast performance due to the large amount of total sugars and also to compensate for some expected loss of IDY yeast cells due to freezing.  I never would have thought of all of that in trying to formulate the dough with the added sugars. 

I will try to monitor the color and hydration of the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone Formulation, when mixing the dough.  I already have some pulverized toasted wheat germ from my last attempt.  It is good you told me to weight out the raw sugar because of the larger particles size.  I might not of thought of that.  I think, but don’t know, that your formula will give the crust a sweeter flavor.  At least at 4% it should give the crust a sweeter flavor.  I will freeze the dough ball right after it is mixed, and formed into a dough ball.

On another note, I had to stop at our local Country Store today to pick up a few things.  I know the Country Store does carry many food products that my local supermarket doesn’t.  I came across Natural Sucanat today while I was there.  http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/brands/Wholesome_Sweeteners/Fair_Trade_Certified_Organic_Sucanat.html

Did you ever try Sucanat, or do you think there could be a possibility that MM’s is using the Sucanat in their dough.  It says on the package of Sucanat that it is cane sugar and molasses.  In this article http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/354976/sugar_cane_natural_sucanat.html?cat=51  it says that Sucanat has a natural molasses flavor and can be used as a one-to one replacement for sugar.  Turbinado vs. Sucanat http://www.ehow.com/about_5374032_turbinado-vs-sucanat.html

Norma

[Biz Markie]

Norma,

As for a Nashville commissary, I am just basing that on info Peter shared from the MM website, where in their picture gallery for Nashville, they seem to be showing a commissary.  Not 100% sure there is one, but it seems to imply it.  Peter may have more info.

I also wanted to get my thoughts out "on paper" about my current situation.  I thought it would be good for me, and possibly others, to put forth a sort of timeline of events as I've gone thru this process:

A.  First MM clone attempt based on guesstimate formula.  5% Molasses, 6.75% Oil, 1.75% Germ. 24-hour dough.  Reaction at the time was that it was very sweet and soft.
B. Second attempt, using Peter's MM#1 formula.  4.6% Molasses, 4.13% Oil, 3.1% Germ.  24-hour dough.  Basically a waste because I burned the pizza.
C. Visited Franklin MM store.  Reaction was that the crust was noticeably sweet, with few if any other flavor notes. 
D. Third attempt, again using Peter's MM#1 formula.  24-hour dough.  Reaction was that crust was not sweet at all, but rather very heavy on the wheat germ.
E. Fourth attempt, using a modified version of MM#2.  5% molasses, 2% Germ, 3% Oil.  48-hour dough.  Reaction was a very "blah" flavor, neither sweet nor particularly wheat germy. 
F. Visit to Farragut MM store.  Reaction was that the crust was not as sweet as the Franklin MM visit.  Color seemed to be very similar to clone attempts.

Based on this timeline, I am trying to decide what to try for this Sunday's pizza.  Since I've eaten 2 real MM pies since my very first attempt which I thought at the time was "sweet", I am heavily leaning towards trying that same initial "guesstimation" formula again.  If not that exact formula, then the modified MM#2 with increased yeast to make it a 24-hour dough.  I'm wondering if the 24-hour window has anything to do with the sweetness since my first attempt and fourth attempts were very close in molasses and germ content, but produced very different sweetness results (as far as taste buds can be trusted.)

[Pete-zza]

On another note, I had to stop at our local Country Store today to pick up a few things.  I know the Country Store does carry many food products that my local supermarket doesn’t.  I came across Natural Sucanat today while I was there.  http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/brands/Wholesome_Sweeteners/Fair_Trade_Certified_Organic_Sucanat.html

Did you ever try Sucanat, or do you think there could be a possibility that MM’s is using the Sucanat in their dough.  It says on the package of Sucanat that it is cane sugar and molasses.  In this article http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/354976/sugar_cane_natural_sucanat.html?cat=51  it says that Sucanat has a natural molasses flavor and can be used as a one-to one replacement for sugar.  Turbinado vs. Sucanat http://www.ehow.com/about_5374032_turbinado-vs-sucanat.html

Norma,

I have heard about Sucanat but I have never tried it. I am not a big sugar user. A 4-lb bag of sugar typically lasts about 9 months in my home, and most of it is for my morning coffee. I must be slipping because a 4-lb bag of sugar used to last me about a year .

I think it is because my brain is not addled by sugar that allows me to produce dough formulations so fast. This aside, I seriously doubt that MM is using Sucanat. I think it would be too costly to use when there are much cheaper alternatives if the objective is to add sweetness to a dough beyond what molasses itself might provide.

Since one of the articles you referenced mentioned turbinado sugar, I went to the Imperial website to see what is stated there as to the nature of its turbinado sugar. This is what I found, under the section about how sugar is processed:

All-natural Imperial Pure Cane Sugar and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar starts as sugar cane grown in Louisiana and Florida. The cane is harvested and transported to Imperial Sugar refining facilities. There, the cane is shredded, mixed with water and crushed. The resulting juice is mixed with naturally occurring minerals, then allowed to dry and form crystals. At this point, the crystals are called raw sugar or turbinado. The crystals are larger than the crystals you are used to on your table and have a slight brownish color. The raw sugar is then combined with more minerals to strip away impurities. The resulting white crystal is added to water and filtered through carbon to remove final impurities. The mixture is allowed to dry to form the all-natural, Imperial and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar you rely on for your recipes and beverages.

If I had to guess, I would say that perhaps the Sucanat sugar is a better form of turbinado sugar with more of the molasses.

Peter

[norma427]

Biz,

I think that was a great idea to put forth a time line on what formulas you have used so far, and how you thought they tasted.    Your input on how real MM’s pie tasted, and your pictures are also very helpful.

I don’t know what Peter might suggest you try, but when I used the MM#2 attempt this week, with freezing and thawing the dough ball, it was basically a 24 hrs. cold fermented dough ball.  I didn’t notice any sweeter taste in the crust in that attempt from the experiment I did before this week, not including the experiment I did with the ADM 4000 DMP product.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I have heard about Sucanat but I have never tried it. I am not a big sugar user. A 4-lb bag of sugar typically lasts about 9 months in my home, and most of it is for my morning coffee. I must be slipping because a 4-lb bag of sugar used to last me about a year .

I think it is because my brain is not addled by sugar that allows me to produce dough formulations so fast. This aside, I seriously doubt that MM is using Sucanat. I think it would be too costly to use when there are much cheaper alternatives if the objective is to add sweetness to a dough beyond what molasses itself might provide.

Since one of the articles you referenced mentioned turbinado sugar, I went to the Imperial website to see what is stated there as to the nature of its turbinado sugar. This is what I found, under the section about how sugar is processed:

All-natural Imperial Pure Cane Sugar and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar starts as sugar cane grown in Louisiana and Florida. The cane is harvested and transported to Imperial Sugar refining facilities. There, the cane is shredded, mixed with water and crushed. The resulting juice is mixed with naturally occurring minerals, then allowed to dry and form crystals. At this point, the crystals are called raw sugar or turbinado. The crystals are larger than the crystals you are used to on your table and have a slight brownish color. The raw sugar is then combined with more minerals to strip away impurities. The resulting white crystal is added to water and filtered through carbon to remove final impurities. The mixture is allowed to dry to form the all-natural, Imperial and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar you rely on for your recipes and beverages.

If I had to guess, I would say that perhaps the Sucanat sugar is a better form of turbinado sugar with more of the molasses.

Peter

Peter,

I can see you aren’t a big sugar user if you are only using a 4-lb. bag in 9 months.  At least I drink my coffee only with milk, so I can use more sugar or alternatives in other foods.  At least that is my reasoning whether it is right or wrong.  Lol, your brain not being addled by sugar allowing you to produce dough formulations so fast.  It is just your brain that is fast, with or without the sugar.  Some people are just born with more smarts from the beginning.

If you also want me to try another formulation this week, with regular molasses and raw sugar, or with the Sucanat with or without added molasses, I can do that.  I didn’t have any more experiments really planned for this week.  I would also try the formulation you set-forth for the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone formulation.  Let me know if you also want me to try another formula for a MM clone attempt.  I could make the dough and then just freeze it.  There would be no watching how the dough ferments, so that would make everything easier.

Interesting what you found out about turbinado sugar at the Imperial website.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

As for a Nashville commissary, I am just basing that on info Peter shared from the MM website, where in their picture gallery for Nashville, they seem to be showing a commissary.  Not 100% sure there is one, but it seems to imply it.  Peter may have more info.

Biz,

According to the MM website, at http://www.mellowmushroom.com/#/contactus, the MM corporate headquarters are in Atlanta, GA. If you look at the MM Nashville website, at http://www.mellowmushroom.com/nashville#/store/gallery/nashville/album/108776658450/show/photos, you will see a set of 58 photos under the heading MELLOW MUSHROOM HEADQUARTERS. I take this to mean Atlanta. A few of those photos are of the commissary. There is also an article at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_41_40/ai_n26707254/ that seems to imply that the headquarters and commissary may be in close proximity to each other, maybe even co-located, possibly like this: (you should use the zoom feature).

Usually you have to have a lot of stores to justify several commissaries. I suspect that MM has only one and that the outlying stores beyond the economic reach of Atlanta make their dough at the store level.

Peter

[Biz Markie]

Thanks for clearing-up the commissary issue, Peter!

[Pete-zza]

If you also want me to try another formulation this week, with regular molasses and raw sugar, or with the Sucanat with or without added molasses, I can do that.  I didn’t have any more experiments really planned for this week.  I would also try the formulation you set-forth for the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone formulation.  Let me know if you also want me to try another formula for a MM clone attempt.  I could make the dough and then just freeze it.  There would be no watching how the dough ferments, so that would make everything easier.

Norma,

For now, I would like to see how the combination of the ADM 65 DMP and the raw cane sugar works out in terms of crust sweetness, since that has been a particularly vexing problem. However, I was wondering what would happen if one used say, 8-10%, pulverized toasted wheat germ and what that would do to the dough/crust in terms of color, taste and texture. That type of experiment could be done with any MM dough clone formulation since it simply means changing the ratio of the high-gluten flour and the wheat germ (e.g., from 97/3 to 90/10). All the other numbers would remain the same. There is no urgency for that that experiment. It can await the outcome of your latest test. Obviously, different people with different tastebuds will detect something like wheat germ at much lower levels than others whatever the type and form of the wheat germ, as Biz apparently has. But if the flavor of wheat germ jumps out at someone as being excessive or offensive and clearly not something that one would get with a real MM crust (for those who have actually tasted an MM crust), that can help define future experiments using lower levels.

Another possible test would be to use molasses (wet or dry) with something like honey. However, that is another experiment that can be deferred to a later date depending on the results of the tests in progress.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

For now, I would like to see how the combination of the ADM 65 DMP and the raw cane sugar works out in terms of crust sweetness, since that has been a particularly vexing problem. However, I was wondering what would happen if one used say, 8-10%, pulverized toasted wheat germ and what that would do to the dough/crust in terms of color, taste and texture. That type of experiment could be done with any MM dough clone formulation since it simply means changing the ratio of the high-gluten flour and the wheat germ (e.g., from 97/3 to 90/10). All the other numbers would remain the same. There is no urgency for that that experiment. It can await the outcome of your latest test. Obviously, different people with different tastebuds will detect something like wheat germ at much lower levels than others whatever the type and form of the wheat germ, as Biz apparently has. But if the flavor of wheat germ jumps out at someone as being excessive or offensive and clearly not something that one would get with a real MM crust (for those who have actually tasted an MM crust), that can help define future experiments using lower levels.

Another possible test would be to use molasses (wet or dry) with something like honey. However, that is another experiment that can be deferred to a later date depending on the results of the tests in progress.

Peter

Peter,

I also want to see how the combination of ADM 65 DMP and the raw sugar works out in the terms of crust sweetness, since I haven’t achieved really much of any crust sweetness in my attempts.  I am really not even sure if Steve, my taste testers, or I will like more crust sweetness, but that is what we all are trying to achieve to be more like a real MM’s pizza crust.

Your idea of adding more (8-10%), pulverized toasted wheat germ sounds like an interesting experiment. Do you also think you might try that experiment at some point?  You are right that different people might detect something different with more toasted wheat germ. I wonder if Biz is still using his raw wheat germ, without toasting it. I looked at the raw wheat germ at the Country Store yesterday, and it does look much lighter in color.  I have never tasted raw wheat germ.  I have only bought toasted wheat germ in the past, so I don’t even have any idea how raw wheat germ tastes. I will try the added toasted wheat germ experiment at a later date.  Right now I am more interested in trying to get some more sweetness in the crust.  

I would be interested in trying honey with Brer Rabbit mild flavored liquid molasses for this coming Tuesday.  How would I determine how much honey to add to the MM#2 formula?  I know how the MM#2 formula tastes in a finished pizza, so adding honey would just change one variable.  Do you have any specific percent of honey in mind to try in a MA#2 formula?  Another thing I meant to do last week was coat the dough ball in toasted coarse corn meal, but my toasted coarse corn meal was at market.  I bought another bag of the toasted coarse corn meal yesterday at the Country Store, so I could coat the dough ball (MM#3 ADM 65 DMP formula) with the corn meal before freezing, something like the real MM’s does.  Right now at home I only have Wildflower honey, that a man at market produces.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

To keep things simple, you might try the MM clone dough formulation as set forth below, which I created using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. This version is similar to the last one I gave you but will use a combination of Brer Rabbit liquid molasses and liquid honey. I will call this formulation the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey Dough Clone Formulation. As you may know, there are more than 300 unique kinds of honey in the U.S. In due course, you may want to obtain samples of all of the known kinds of honey in the U.S. to store in the addition you are building to your home to house all of the samples of ingredients you have managed to convince suppliers to send to you.

Although I would be surprised to learn that MM uses honey in its dough, honey does have a lot of positive attributes in addition to sweetness, color and flavor. For example, in a frozen dough honey improves the rheological properties of the dough and protects the gluten from damage during freezing. It also significantly improves dough strength. If the wildflower honey that you have available to you is unprocessed, it will also have many enzymes that should be beneficial. If you are interested in reading more on this topic, you might take a look at the series of posts at the PMQ Think Tank starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&p=26951&hilit=#p26884.

In the dough formulation presented below, I made adjustments to the nominal hydration to compensate for the fact that liquid molasses includes 22% water and that honey includes 17% water. I calculate that the “adjusted” hydration (that takes the water in the molasses and honey into account) is about 56% and that the “effective” hydration (that also takes the oil into account) is about 58%. I believe that that value of effective hydration should keep the dough manageable.

You should prepare and freeze the finished dough ball as you have been doing with your recent experiments. As before, you may want to monitor the hydration of the finished dough and make any hydration adjustments that you deem necessary. Also, you may want to monitor the final color of the dough although I wouldn’t be too preoccupied with the final color inasmuch as the color of your wildflower honey will also have an effect on the final color of the dough.

In due course, I plan to make a test dough with a fair amount of toasted wheat germ (I will use the Kretschmer’s supermarket brand).

MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey Dough Clone Formulation

Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Spring Water (54.5%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%): The Man at Market’s Wildflower Honey (4%): Brer Rabbit Liquid Molasses (4%): Total (167.1%):

309.97 g  |  10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs 168.93 g  |  5.96 oz | 0.37 lbs 1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.77 tsp | 0.59 tbsp 12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684

*The Unbleached High-Gluten/Wheat Germ Blend comprises 300.67 grams (10.61 ounces) of unbleached (unbromated) high-gluten flour and 9.30 grams (0.33 ounces) of pulverized toasted wheat germ, based on a ratio of 97% high-gluten flour and 3% pulverized toasted wheat germ.
Note: The nominal thickness factor = 0.11693 and corresponds to a dough ball weight of 18 ounces, for a single 14” pizza; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

To keep things simple, you might try the MM clone dough formulation as set forth below, which I created using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. This version is similar to the last one I gave you but will use a combination of Brer Rabbit liquid molasses and liquid honey. I will call this formulation the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey Dough Clone Formulation. As you may know, there are more than 300 unique kinds of honey in the U.S. In due course, you may want to obtain samples of all of the known kinds of honey in the U.S. to store in the addition you are building to your home to house all of the samples of ingredients you have managed to convince suppliers to send to you.

Although I would be surprised to learn that MM uses honey in its dough, honey does have a lot of positive attributes in addition to sweetness, color and flavor. For example, in a frozen dough honey improves the rheological properties of the dough and protects the gluten from damage during freezing. It also significantly improves dough strength. If the wildflower honey that you have available to you is unprocessed, it will also have many enzymes that should be beneficial. If you are interested in reading more on this topic, you might take a look at the series of posts at the PMQ Think Tank starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&p=26951&hilit=#p26884.

In the dough formulation presented below, I made adjustments to the nominal hydration to compensate for the fact that liquid molasses includes 22% water and that honey includes 17% water. I calculate that the “adjusted” hydration (that takes the water in the molasses and honey into account) is about 56% and that the “effective” hydration (that also takes the oil into account) is about 58%. I believe that that value of effective hydration should keep the dough manageable.

You should prepare and freeze the finished dough ball as you have been doing with your recent experiments. As before, you may want to monitor the hydration of the finished dough and make any hydration adjustments that you deem necessary. Also, you may want to monitor the final color of the dough although I wouldn’t be too preoccupied with the final color inasmuch as the color of your wildflower honey will also have an effect on the final color of the dough.

In due course, I plan to make a test dough with a fair amount of toasted wheat germ (I will use the Kretschmer’s supermarket brand).

MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Dough Clone Formulation

Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Spring Water (54.5%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%): The Man at Market’s Wildflower Honey (4%): Brer Rabbit Liquid Molasses (4%): Total (167.1%):

309.97 g  |  10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs 168.93 g  |  5.96 oz | 0.37 lbs 1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.77 tsp | 0.59 tbsp 12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684

*The Unbleached High-Gluten/Wheat Germ Blend comprises 300.67 grams (10.61 ounces) of unbleached (unbromated) high-gluten flour and 9.30 grams (0.33 ounces) of pulverized toasted wheat germ, based on a ratio of 97% high-gluten flour and 3% pulverized toasted wheat germ.
Note: The nominal thickness factor = 0.11693 and corresponds to a dough ball weight of 18 ounces, for a single 14” pizza; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for keeping things simple for me in figuring out the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey Dough Clone Formulation for me to try.  I never would have been able to figure out a nominal hydration using honey and molasses.  I appreciate you have the brains to be able to do that.  I will follow your instructions to prepare and freeze the finished dough ball.  I probably will make both doughs tomorrow morning, and freeze them until Monday when I go to market.  

I am not sure if my Wildflower honey is unprocessed.  It is light colored honey. I do have unprocessed honey at market, and also the man at market that has the hives makes many kinds of honey. He even sends his hives to Florida to vacation in the winter. He gave me the two jars of honey.  I didn’t know frozen honey dough improves the rheological properties of the dough and protects the gluten from damage during freezing and also improves the dough strength.  I read the link you referenced on Re: suger in dough at PMQTT so many times and still don’t remember what all was in that thread.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.  I didn’t know there are 300 unique kinds of honey in the U.S.  About getting more samples of honey, I think that isn’t going to happen.  I sure don’t know what to do with all the with all the samples I have managed to convince suppliers to send me, let alone get more.  I would have thought by now, I would have come across some kind of “super dough” for a pizza, but that wasn’t meant to be.  

I don’t remember these two videos posted on this thread, but if they were, just ignore them.

The first video is of Chris Hastings, tossing the dough
http://videos.al.com/huntsville-times/2011/08/mellow_mushroom_pizza_maker_08.html

Video of Brad  throwing the dough at Mellow Mushroom  Brad made the US Pizza Team.

http://www.newschannel9.com/video/?videoId=905915575001&lineupId=1155139243&play=now

I think after watching all the piemen from all the videos from Mellow Mushroom, I might need to get my training video out for Throw Dough.  http://www.throwdough.com/
I am nothing in comparison to those piemen at MM’s in tossing and twirling the dough.  I never really practiced with my Throw Dough, but since it doesn’t feel like real dough, I guess I just never bothered.  Maybe I will get it out this weekend and see if I can get better at tossing and twirling.

Thanks for telling me in due course you are going to try a larger amount of toasted wheat germ in a MM formula.  I guess my toasted wheat germ is from Dutch Valley.  http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/grains/156056/wheat-germ-toasted-25lb   I don’t know if different brands of toasted wheat germ will make any difference in a MM’s formulation or not.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The math for the dough formulations isn't really all that difficult, and it certainly helps to have the expanded dough calculating tool to set up all of the numbers. Without that tool, it would be almost impossible to conduct the kinds of experiments we have been conducting and to change them at will and as quickly as we have been doing. But the key number in all of the formulations is the hydration, specifically, what I have been calling the "effective" hydration. No matter what goes into the dough, the effective hydration has to be around 57-58%.

It will be an interesting contest between the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP formulation and the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey formulation, with the combination of dry molasses and raw sugar cane (a commercial version) being matched against the combination of liquid molasses and honey (a home version). All the other baker's percents for the remaining dough ingredients are the same. We might discover that the finished crust is too sweet or it may be too tender because of a total of 8% sugars. For sweetness, I am relying on the raw cane sugar and honey to pull the molasses through to the finish line. If needed, we can always adjust the sweetness and/or hydration. I perhaps should have mentioned it earlier, but because of the high sugar content you may want to watch the bottoms of the crusts so that they don't darken too fast. I'm sure you already know this and will have a pizza screen or two on hand to lift the pizzas off of the stone if the crusts start to darken too quickly. In a home oven, I would just lift the pizza off of the stone to a higher oven rack position. And I wouldn't necessarily start with the highest oven temperature.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I guess my toasted wheat germ is from Dutch Valley.  http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/grains/156056/wheat-germ-toasted-25lb   I don’t know if different brands of toasted wheat germ will make any difference in a MM’s formulation or not.

Norma,

Unfortunately, we may never know. At the home level, we are stuck with whatever brands of wheat germ we can get. It might be Kretschmer's, Mother's, Bob's Red Mill, or a Barry Farms repackaged wheat germ product. MM would be using large bags of wheat germ, no doubt from a commercial source. We are similarly handicapped at the home level with our choices of molasses. It is likely to be Grandma's or Brer Rabbit or some other like product that individuals can purchase in small quantities. Even if we knew the exact brands of high-gluten flour, wheat germ and molasses that MM uses, they might not be readily available to individuals and the quantities are likely to be impractical for the home pizza maker. And MM wil always have a cost advantage. An MM dough clone made at home is not a cheap dough.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I know the expanded dough calculating tool does certainly help set up all the numbers.  I know from doing different experiments before, and putting a certain hydration percent in the dough calculating tool, and then just putting the percent of the rest of the ingredients wanted. The tool does do miracles, and I can understand we wouldn’t able to conduct the kinds of experiments we have been doing, unless someone would really be good at math.  I probably could have figured out a formulation to try, but wasn’t sure how to figure out how honey and molasses to try in the formula.  That is one place I get stumped on knowing how much of each ingredient to add to be able to determine what the final result might be.

I also think it will be an interesting contest between the MM# ADM 65 DMP formulation, and the MM# 4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Home formulation.  I wonder since the MM# ADM 65 clone dough formulation does have the commercial raw sugar and the ADM 65 DMP, how that will fair out against the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey formulation, which has home version ingredients.  It also makes me wonder if MM’s is using a premix to send to the stores that don’t have commissary’s near them, if they would use commercial dry vegetable oil.  I wouldn’t think the ingredients would come separately to MM’s businesses that don’t have access to the main commissary, but I guess they could add regular vegetable oil when they mix the other ingredients for the dough.  I think MM’s is pretty secretive about what goes into their pizza dough mix, since even most managers or workers don’t seem to know what is in the whole mix. 

I had thought about the high sugar content, and also thought back to when I made Papa John’s pizzas and needed to use screens, from all the sugar in the Papa John’s dough.  I also wanted to get a longer bake time than my last attempt, so I was thinking along the lines of waiting until the bottom crust starts to brown, then transfer the pizza onto maybe multiple screens, so the bake time is longer.  I would have a hard time lowering the temperature of my oven at market, and switching to making my regular pizzas. 

I have no idea what kind of wheat germ, molasses or high-gluten flour MM’s uses.  I guess my toasted wheat germ is a commercial brand since it probably came from Dutch Valley.  I have been lucky, that most of my ingredients have been given to me, or either have been able to be bought at the Country Store, where ingredients are cheaper than online or elsewhere.  Even my KASL is relatively cheap, compared to what other members might have to pay for high-gluten flour.  I never thought how much the MM’s dough might cost for a member to try a dough.  I guess you already did the calculations for how much one dough ball costs. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I never thought how much the MM’s dough might cost for a member to try a dough.  I guess you already did the calculations for how much one dough ball costs. 

Norma,

I don't have any KASL but at King Arthur's price (excluding shipping charges) and using my costs for the rest of the ingredients (Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ, spring water, SAF IDY, Brer Rabbit molasses, honey, salt and soybean oil), it would cost me $1.97 for the dough using the Brer Rabbit/wildflower honey dough formulation I gave you. That is for a roughly 18-ounce dough ball. Using KABF and vital wheat gluten would lower that cost by quite a bit.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I don't have any KASL but at King Arthur's price (excluding shipping charges) and using my costs for the rest of the ingredients (Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ, spring water, SAF IDY, Brer Rabbit molasses, honey, salt and soybean oil), it would cost me $1.97 for the dough using the Brer Rabbit/wildflower honey dough formulation I gave you. That is for a roughly 18-ounce dough ball. Using KABF and vital wheat gluten would lower that cost by quite a bit.

Peter

Peter,

I knew if you didn’t already do the calculations for the price of you making a dough ball with the ingredients given for the formula I am using, you would figured it out quickly.  I guess that is how no sugar on the brain helps you.   From your calculations, I really don’t think that is a lot for a dough ball, given what MM’s charges for a pie.  I am sure MM’s would have a cost advantage for their dough balls.  Hopefully, in this thread we all will be able to figure out how to make a credible MM’s clone dough and pizza.

Norma