Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 154766 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #520 on: October 26, 2011, 10:29:29 AM »
My dough ball handled like a MMís dough, like I saw at MMís recently, in almost every way, just like yours. The only thing I have a question about is now how do I get the less airy looking rim?  I like the really airy looking rim, but that isnít what MMís rim is really like.

Norma,

I have always viewed the texture issue as being the second part of the battle that has to be conquered. The third is to match the dough formulation to a standard home oven.

It is because of the texture challenge that I have conducted experiments using varying amounts of wheat germ and oil and trying different hydration values. Since I am working with KABF and VWG, which will tend to produce a softer crust and crumb than one made using a high-gluten flour, I have been lowering the amounts of oil and also lowering the hydration value but I may need some wheat germ to achieve a somewhat denser crust like the one I had at the Florida MM. In your case, even with the KASL, you might try lowering the hydration by a percent or two and use less oil (I am thinking of going to only 1%). You could also try using less yeast, although when I tried that I found that the rise wasn't quite as good, so I returned to 0.60% IDY for a dough that is to be frozen for later use. Using less yeast will work for a dough that is to be cold fermented for one or more days before using but there is no evidence to date that MM does anything like that. Maybe one day we will learn how the MM stores that make dough in-house do it. However, I am not aware of any MM store that is making their dough in-house.

Peter


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #521 on: October 26, 2011, 10:49:21 AM »
Hi Norma,
I noticed you dip your dough in cornmeal while it is fermenting.  That's a new technique that I think sounds pretty neat.  Is there a certain type of cornmeal I should use or can I stick with my quaker?

http://www.quakeroats.com/products/more-products-from-quaker/content/specialty-items/cornmeal/yellow-corn-meal.aspx

I also am curious if one is not going to freeze the dough - what is the fridge fermentation you would recommend?  1 day - 2 day - x days?



Brian,

I just coat the dough ball with corn meal, (instead of using oil or flour) and then used corn meal instead of the flour to coat the dough ball right before I open the dough ball.  Also corn meal is used on the peel.  I donít know anything about Quaker Oats corn meal, or if anything is added to their cornmeal.  For my last attempt I had used light cornmeal.  

I really donít know how long to let dough ball (the formula I used) ferment in the fridge.  Since the formula I used has 0.60 IDY in the formula, I would think the IDY amount would have to be played with a little, and possibly lowered.  Maybe Peter can give you better information on the amount of IDY to use if you want to cold ferment your dough for a day or more.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 11:20:40 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #522 on: October 26, 2011, 11:05:15 AM »
I really donít know how long to let dough ball (the formula I used) ferment in the fridge.  Since the formula I used has .060 IDY in the formula, I would think the IDY amount would have to be played with a little, and possibly lowered.  Maybe Peter can give you better information on the amount of IDY to use if you want to cold ferment your dough for a day or more.

Brian,

I believe that Norma meant to say 0.60% IDY rather than 0.06%.

I usually wait until I have figured out the dough formulation to my satisfaction before adapting it to a new protocol. However, if you can't wait and are interested in a one-day cold fermentation, you might try using 0.375% IDY. For a longer cold fermentation, I would lower that value. Keep in mind, however, that changing the protocol can change the final results and your version may not be the same as a real MM pizza. I discovered this when I was making the several versions of the Papa John's clones. The pizzas should still taste fine but they may just be different.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #523 on: October 26, 2011, 11:09:59 AM »
Thanks Pete.  Can you refresh my memory of the approach when .6 IDY is used?  Does one need to take the dough and freeze immediately to leverage the .6 technique?

Brian
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 11:21:19 AM by briterian »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #524 on: October 26, 2011, 11:16:06 AM »
Can you refresh my memory of the approach when .6 IDY is used?  Does one need to take the freeze immediately method?

Brian,

I settled on the 0.60% IDY for the frozen version only, on the basis that freezing the dough ball kills some of the yeast. The 0.375% IDY recommendation is for a fresh, cold-fermented dough.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #525 on: October 26, 2011, 11:21:34 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for your explanation on what might have been going on with the color change in my dough ball yesterday.  I had wondered more about that after posting that picture of how light the dough looked in the MMís commissary, and then how much darker the dough balls looked at MMís on my recent visit.  I had wondered if somehow freezing the dough, then changes the chemistry somehow if molasses is used, when frozen and thawed.  I know nothing about the chemistry of how dough can change when molasses is used.

It is interesting that you thought your MMís clone pizzas were virtually indistinguishable from the real slice you brought back home from your Florida visit.  I know your technical side is right. To do a true comparison you would need a side by side comparison of two freshly baked pizzas. (one a home clone MMís pizza and one a real MMís pizza)  No way that is going to happen for me, but for someone near a MMís, that might be able to be done.

I think you have done a great job in analyzing what kind of formula to use for a MMís clone attempt, and giving Biz and me help in what to try next.  ;D I still donít understand how you can make such an educated guess even from the first clone attempt.  

I will lower the hydration a point for next weeks attempt, and also will lower the oil by one percent, to see if it will give me a denser crust.  I saved my little piece of real frozen MMís crust and will defrost it next week, to see if I can make any comparisons on color.

You are correct in I posted the wrong amount of IDY I used.  I will edit my post. It was a typing error.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #526 on: October 26, 2011, 11:21:52 AM »
Cool. I'm on it.  Interested in revisiting this dough using Norma's latest.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #527 on: October 26, 2011, 01:58:21 PM »
This is a picture of the Dominos Homemaid Molasses and the Grandmaís Original Molasses together.  They are both almost exactly the same color, at least to my eyes.  The taste of the Dominos Homemaid Molasses has a little stronger taste of molasses, but also has a sweeter aftertaste if that makes any sense.

I also tasted the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup and that stuff is really ďsickening sweetĒ.  :-D

At least I found it interesting that there was a patent applied for with molasses in pizza dough in a search I did, but donít think MMís has a patent for their pizza dough.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #528 on: October 26, 2011, 02:25:23 PM »
I still donít understand how you can make such an educated guess even from the first clone attempt.  

Norma,

It's really just a combination of a mathematical and scientific approach to pizza making and having worked with many different types and styles of dough from which you learn the relationship between ingredients and their ranges and the final product. It is also a big help to have a big database of information about anything pizza related. When you do this sort of thing over a period of years, as I have done, you also develop a sort of sixth sense about expected outcomes that turns out to be valuable and saves a lot of time with testing and experimentation. I was also once told by a professional that most dough formulations can tolerate a fair amount of change in the amounts of ingredients without affecting the outcome in a material way. So, using say, 7% molasses or 5% or 8% perhaps isn't going to matter all that much in the final outcome. In our case, of course, we have been striving to achieve a particular dough/crust color using whatever brands of molasses available to us, so the amount of molasses has been important for that objective. But, absent that, the amount of molasses should work in a reasonably wide range of values.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #529 on: October 26, 2011, 03:18:12 PM »
Norma,

Your report comparing the Domino Homemaid molasses with the Grandma's Original molasses is actually quite timely inasmuch as I received a call back from the gal at Mellow Mushroom just a short while ago and I have more information to report.

By way of recapitulation, as I previously noted, I had been told during my last conversation with the MM rep that MM uses liquid molasses. I reiterated that statement today and, given a chance, it was not retracted. The main reason for the return call, however, had to do with the wheat germ. I was told today that while MM may have used wheat germ a long time ago, it does not now add wheat germ to their flour. So, as was earlier reported on a couple of occasions, it appears that the MM dough is made only from high-gluten flour, water (spring water), salt, yeast, oil and molasses.

When the conversation turned back to the molasses, I mentioned that it was my understanding that MM does not use refined white sugar. Her response was "Never." When I mentioned that something like brown sugar was not a "refined white sugar" but it might be considered a "refined sugar", she said that while she could discuss allergy and related health issues she was not in a position to discuss certain matters relating to their dough. But the impression I got was that it was only molasses that was used in the MM dough and in an amount just enough to give the dough and crust its color. She added that many people think that they are using whole wheat flour because of the crust color.

In defense of MM, I have not seen anything covering a period of several years, and attributable to MM corporate, that their dough contains wheat germ or Vitamin E. Its franchisees and writers have been the ones quoting their use. But perhaps MM corporate should have been more diligent in policing what their franchisees say about their dough.

Your Homemaid molasses might just be the ticket for a "molasses-only" sweetener. It might be worth an experiment using just that molasses without any added sugars.

I don't know what to say about the evaporated cane juice syrup and the rest of your growing collection of molasses products, both wet and dry. I'd hate to see you use all of those products and have your teeth rot and fall out and cause you to leave the forum and join another forum such as the BabyFood.com forum or the Marshmallow.com forum.

So, basically, what it appears we have with the MM dough is a not particularly healthful dough but one that is as idiot-proof as you can get in terms of using to open up the dough balls without the skins sticking to anything including themselves when they are preformed. With the dough balls being frozen for the most part and easily defrosted is also a plus to the MM strategy.

Hopefully, it won't be long before we solve the texture issue. Then, you and Steve can go to your local tattoo parlor and get some hippy-type tattoos and start your own funky, low-overhead place featuring discount clones of the MM pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 03:29:13 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #530 on: October 26, 2011, 05:21:54 PM »
Norma,

Your report comparing the Domino Homemaid molasses with the Grandma's Original molasses is actually quite timely inasmuch as I received a call back from the gal at Mellow Mushroom just a short while ago and I have more information to report.

By way of recapitulation, as I previously noted, I had been told during my last conversation with the MM rep that MM uses liquid molasses. I reiterated that statement today and, given a chance, it was not retracted. The main reason for the return call, however, had to do with the wheat germ. I was told today that while MM may have used wheat germ a long time ago, it does not now add wheat germ to their flour. So, as was earlier reported on a couple of occasions, it appears that the MM dough is made only from high-gluten flour, water (spring water), salt, yeast, oil and molasses.

When the conversation turned back to the molasses, I mentioned that it was my understanding that MM does not use refined white sugar. Her response was "Never." When I mentioned that something like brown sugar was not a "refined white sugar" but it might be considered a "refined sugar", she said that while she could discuss allergy and related health issues she was not in a position to discuss certain matters relating to their dough. But the impression I got was that it was only molasses that was used in the MM dough and in an amount just enough to give the dough and crust its color. She added that many people think that they are using whole wheat flour because of the crust color.

In defense of MM, I have not seen anything covering a period of several years, and attributable to MM corporate, that their dough contains wheat germ or Vitamin E. Its franchisees and writers have been the ones quoting their use. But perhaps MM corporate should have been more diligent in policing what their franchisees say about their dough.

Your Homemaid molasses might just be the ticket for a "molasses-only" sweetener. It might be worth an experiment using just that molasses without any added sugars.

I don't know what to say about the evaporated cane juice syrup and the rest of your growing collection of molasses products, both wet and dry. I'd hate to see you use all of those products and have your teeth rot and fall out and cause you to leave the forum and join another forum such as the BabyFood.com forum or the Marshmallow.com forum.

So, basically, what it appears we have with the MM dough is a not particularly healthful dough but one that is as idiot-proof as you can get in terms of using to open up the dough balls without the skins sticking to anything including themselves when they are preformed. With the dough balls being frozen for the most part and easily defrosted is also a plus to the MM strategy.

Hopefully, it won't be long before we solve the texture issue. Then, you and Steve can go to your local tattoo parlor and get some hippy-type tattoos and start your own funky, low-overhead place featuring discount clones of the MM pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Glad to hear your received a call back from the gal at Mellow Mushroom.  Since she still didnít tell you if MMís used any ďrefined sugarsĒ in their dough, I guess you are right that I can try the Domimoís Homemaid Molasses product only in the dough without brown sugar. That still doesnít leave out any other ďrefined sugarsĒ in their dough since she wouldnít discuss certain matters having to do with their dough. What percent of the Dominoís Homemaid molasses do you suggest I try for an experiment for next week?  I have no idea of what percent to try.  If that experiment fails the sweetness test, then maybe MMís is also using some kind of ďrefined sugarsĒ in their dough. At least that is my way of thinking.  I donít have the experience you do in determining how things work out in dough.  I can only go by my eyes, natural instincts and hands what might work.  I sure donít have the mathematical gene.  Do you want me to copy and post the data sheets for the Homemaid molasses first?  I will also drop the hydration and oil amount.  Hopefully that will solve the texture issue.  

In addition to my evaporated cane syrup, all my other molasses products, and all my other samples, I sure donít know what I am going to do with all of them.  I did recently add some dry molasses to baked beans and at least that gave them a new different flavor.  Maybe someday if all the samples donít get too old, or I donít become too old, I will find some ways of using all my samples.   :-D

It is interesting that in the end we probably will have an idiot-proof dough and also an easy dough formulation.  

I donít think either Steve or I am interested in real tattoos, but selling a clone MMís dough pizza would be interesting to try.  Since I saw the circus theme at MMís, I think I would rather go with a circus theme than a ďhippy themeĒ.  I also like circus related things.  :)

Thanks for your report on the talk you had with the gal from MMís.  I also thought it was interesting that she said that most people think MMís dough is made with whole wheat flour.  That is what it first looks like, even to me.  I guess MMís dough and pizza arenít as healthy as they made customers think.  Great detective work as always.  8)

Norma
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 05:25:33 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #531 on: October 26, 2011, 08:04:06 PM »
Peter,

The are the data sheets for the Homemaid molasses if you need them.  Two of the data sheets are light.  If you need more information from any of these data sheets, let me know and I can try to type out the information you might need.  I know you said you are going to be away from your home base for awhile, but I thought if you need any of this information, I would try to post it for the Homemaid molasses.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #532 on: October 26, 2011, 08:04:47 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #533 on: October 26, 2011, 08:05:10 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #534 on: October 26, 2011, 09:00:12 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for posting the information on the Homemaid molasses. Unfortunately, Grandma's doesn't give comparable data to be able to compare the two products from the standpoint of constituent sugars. It would be nice if the Homemaid molasses is sweeter than the Grandma's Original molasses and puts the molasses sweetness issue to bed.

For an amount of the Homemaid molasses to use, I think I would go with about 8% by flour weight and see how that goes compared with the Grandma's Original molasses. I made and froze another MM clone dough ball today with 9% Grandma's Original molasses and 1.5% light brown sugar in an effort to get more of the flavor of the molasses.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #535 on: October 26, 2011, 10:25:57 PM »
Norma,

For an amount of the Homemaid molasses to use, I think I would go with about 8% by flour weight and see how that goes compared with the Grandma's Original molasses. I made and froze another MM clone dough ball today with 9% Grandma's Original molasses and 1.5% light brown sugar in an effort to get more of the flavor of the molasses.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the advice on what amount of Homemaid molasses to use in the next formula. Hope your next MM's clone dough works out fine in sweetness and molasses flavor, when you bake it.

On the last data sheet I posted, there are names at the bottom of that data sheet.  It looks like Domino does might get some of the molasses from those companies.  I will check into that.  The one looks like it is in Florida.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 10:30:37 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #536 on: October 26, 2011, 10:48:14 PM »
Norma,

I did a little research on the Grandma's Original molasses and it looks like it has 55.50 grams of total sugar for a 100 gram sample compared with 65 grams for the Homemaid molasses. So, it looks like the Homemaid molasses may, in fact, be sweeter.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #537 on: October 26, 2011, 10:56:16 PM »
Norma,

I did a little research on the Grandma's Original molasses and it looks like it has 55.50 grams of total sugar for a 100 gram sample compared with 65 grams for the Homemaid molasses. So, it looks like the Homemaid molasses may, in fact, be sweeter.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing the research.  I does seem that the Homemaid molasses is sweeter.  I guess I will find out in my next experiment.  I thought the Homemaid molasses did have a sweeter aftertaste when I taste tested both molasses products this morning.  The molasses flavor seemed to be stronger in the Homemaid molasses also. 

I looked up those companies I had mentioned in my last post and it seems like they are associated with Domino's.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #538 on: October 26, 2011, 11:25:20 PM »
Peter,

There does look like there is a Grandmaís product that is called ďFancy MolassesĒ.  http://www.grandmamolasses.com/data/pdf/PDS_Fancy_Grandma_Feb_2007.pdf

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #539 on: October 27, 2011, 07:16:12 AM »
Norma,

That appears to be a product offered in Canada. There is even a separate website at http://www.grandmamolasses.com/index.php?id=3. Note that in Canada the product is sold under the Grandma brand name without the apostrophe "s". In the U.S., it is with the apostrophe "s".

I have not seen spec sheets for the U.S. Grandma's molasses products to be able to do a comparison, but it may well be that the Grandma Canadian molasses product is a Fancy product.

Peter


 

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