Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[norma427]

Norma,

I have not seen the specs for the Ultragrain flour but I would not consider it the best way to juice up high-gluten flour for purposes of emulating an MM dough. As a whole wheat flour, adding Ultragrain flour to KASL or any other high-gluten flour would increase the wheat germ and bran content and would add some Vitamin E (simply because Vitamin E is naturally present in the Utlragrain flour), but to get to the level of wheat germ that I think is present in the MM dough, you would perhaps have to add too much Ultragrain flour. I don't know the protein content of the Ultragrain flour but if it is less than say, 14%, it might lower the total protein content of the blend and take it out of the high-gluten category. From all of the MM-related videos I have seen, and the way that the MM dough handles on the bench and when opened up and tossed and spun, there has to be a lot of gluten in the flour blend that MM uses. For now, unless you just want to play around with the Ultragrain flour in a test, I think the better way to proceed is to use Vitamin-E enriched toasted wheat germ along with the high-gluten flour.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advise on not using the ConAgra Ultragrain flour in an M&M attempt. I did pick up some toasted wheat germ, mild flavored molasses, and coarse cornmeal at the Country Store today.  If I have time this week, I will try one of your formulas for this coming week. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Biz,

Earlier today, in Reply 77, I referenced a video showing how a typical MM pizza is made, at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvixfngmz-g&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvixfngmz-g&amp;feature=related</a>

. As can be seen in that video, the pizza sauce is distributed onto the 16” skin shown in the video using what is commonly referred to as a “Spoodle”. A “Spoodle” is a combination of a spoon and a ladle (generically, the device is called a “food portioning” or “portion controller” device). I wondered whether I would be able to determine the capacity of the Spoodle bowl shown in the video since knowing that would allow us to scale the amount of sauce put onto a 16” skin to a 14” size and a 10” size. I might add that I have now seen several MM-related videos showing the use of Spoodles in MM stores. And they are very similar.

From the video, and particularly at 1:01, the Spoodle looks to be about a couple of inches shorter than the diameter (16”) of the skin shown in the video. That would place the total length of the Spoodle at around 14”. Spoodles are often sold in sets with different bowl capacities and, in such cases, the Spoodles are color-coded for ease and convenience of use. As it so happens, Spoodles with black handles such as shown in the video are often reserved in sets for 6-ounce bowl capacities. However, I discovered that Spoodles are available in black in just about any standard bowl capacity.

Perhaps during your MM store visit you can ask what size Spoodle is used to make a given size pizza. I have a Spoodle type device, with a bowl capacity of 3 ounces, and the size is stated on the device, both in ounces and milliliters.

Thanks.

Peter

[Biz Markie]

Biz,
Perhaps during your MM store visit you can ask what size Spoodle is used to make a given size pizza. I have a Spoodle type device, with a bowl capacity of 3 ounces, and the size is stated on the device, both in ounces and milliliters.

I plan to go this coming Tuesday, so I will try my best to ask this and maybe other questions. 

Would it be helpful to get a weight on a finished pizza?  My only caveat would be that we will probably get 2 10'' pies, one Veggie (with vegan cheese if available, or no cheese if not) and one probably half cheese, half pepperoni or something. 

I also want to get a cup of their sauce so I can take it home and see if I can emulate it.  Their sauce is not something I remember being particularly struck by in the past - the crust (and higher-end toppings) has always been the draw for me.  But I am in somewhat of a sauce "funk" right now and need something to perhaps emulate.

On another note - I'm really wondering about the Wheat Germ.  I think I follow your logic that has led you more to the toasted, Vitamin E enriched variety.  However, do you think in a commissary model such as this, that a more "processed" wheat germ would be used?  It almost seems like a raw germ would be cheaper and easier to come by.  But of course, I have no knowledge of these things - I'm just going off the top of my head.
Also, I checked out the Kretschmer toasted germ product and noticed its Vitamin E RDA value is 20%.  The Hodgson Mill Raw germ I have has a 12% RDA value (I suspect the serving size is the same but I did not confirm).  That's a bit more but nothing giant in terms of Vitamin E content. 
I also was thinking that the Kretschmer was almost more like a granulated product - more processed and possibly more easily mixed into a dough, but I noticed that the germ looks just like the stuff I have. . . .just little flakes, etc.  So not sure it would perform any differently.  Perhaps the toasting would impact this, however.  Toasting I'm sure would impact the flavor too, like toasting nuts changes them pretty dramatically.
I was going to buy the Kretschmer to try but figured I'd finish my raw germ first.

I have a dough ball in the fridge following your formula in reply #67.  Only trouble is I was not able to use soybean oil (grrrr) so I went with Grapeseed instead.  It seems to have a fairly neutral flavor, though it seems perhaps a little "lighter" and not as heavy as soy.  Anyway - I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes.

[Pete-zza]

Biz,

I intentionally did not ask you to get a baked pizza weight because I did not want you to order up a pizza that you didn’t really want just to get the weight. Usually the best pizza to get for weighing purposes is the simplest pizza possible with the fewest things on it, such as a plain cheese pizza or maybe one with pepperoni. This is especially true when you already know the weight of the dough ball. That leaves just the cheese and sauce (and pepperoni, if applicable) and weight losses during baking to consider. If pepperoni is used on a pizza, it is a good idea to count the number of slices. Most pepperoni tends to fall within a fairly narrow range from a weight standpoint.

On the matter of the wheat germ, I don’t know that it will make a lot of difference whether you use the raw wheat germ or the toasted wheat germ although I agree that the toasted variety will add its own flavor profile and color to the finished pizza. As I mentioned earlier, I could not find any raw wheat germ that was enriched by Vitamin E by intentionally adding that vitamin to the wheat germ. I don’t recall whether I mentioned it earlier, but when I spoke to the technical person at Pendleton, he said that if wheat germ were to be added to another flour, most likely it would go through a further processing step, possibly to reduce the particle size, before combining it with the other flour.

Apart from flavor and color, one of the advantages of the toasted wheat germ is that it has a shelf life of around 540 days, which would seem to lend itself better to a commissary model. But whether raw or toasted wheat germ is used, it should be refrigerated once the package is opened. I’m sure that MM has long figured out how to use all of the ingredients that go into its dough without experiencing problems with wheat germ spoilage. I should also mention that there is such a thing as a de-fatted wheat germ (see, for example, http://garudaint.com/product.php?id=19&prod_code=DWGERMDTC-CS). We shouldn’t also rule out the possibility that MM uses pre-mixes in its commissary as prepared by an outside company. As for cost, the toasted wheat germ may be more expensive than raw wheat germ because of the added processing steps, but MM pizzas aren’t exactly cheap, so there may be room in their profit margin to absorb that higher cost. Remember, also, that a 25-50 pound bag of wheat germ should go a long way.

BTW, if you want to see a couple of examples of Spoodle/portion controller devices with a black handle of the desired shape and a length of about 14”, see http://libertywareusa.com/products/s/spo6.aspx (Libertyware, 14 1/2”) and http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=13319& and the related photo at  http://www.bakedeco.com/info/dispWin.asp?is=/images/large/Portion6.jpg (manufacturer not identified, 14 ¼”). I did find a portion controller in the 8-ounce size with a black handle but the description of the length of the controller was unclear. I have asked for clarification and will report back if my inquiry is answered. But, by and large, Spoodles/portion controllers with black handles tend to have 6-ounce capacities. In the MM videos I looked at, I did not see portion controllers with other than black handles, and I did not see several different portion controllers lying around. Maybe the pizza assemblers use the same portion controller for the three different pizza sizes by just filling the bowls to different levels for the different pizza sizes. It is also possible that the portion controllers can be shorter than about 14", since there are models out there that are less than about 14" in overall length but with the same capacity. With MM stores in 15 states and the District of Columbia and increasingly moving out of the South, It would be illogical to expect that all MM stores have identical equipment and devices to work with.

I don’t know if you are aware of this, but soybean is just ordinary vegetable oil and is sold as “vegetable oil” in supermarkets, either alone or as part of a blend with another oil, such as canola oil. However, your grapeseed oil should work fine.

Peter

[Biz Markie]

Good info, Peter.   

One thing I've thought of regarding the wheat germ is to find a way to reduce the particle size.  I don't have a mortar and pestle, but that might work.  I do have a manual ceramic burr grinder for coffee and/or spices.  I may, for fun, attempt to grind some germ to see how that goes.

And yep - I am aware (though not really until I started making PJ clone doughs!) that most Vegetable Oil is soybean oil.  Sadly I just ran out and haven't made it to the store yet. 

Well, I'll catch up tomorrow, I hope.

[norma427]

A Mellow Mushroom dough was mixed this morning, for an attempt at a Mellow Mushroom pizza on Tuesday.  This was the formula I used, and how the dough ball looked.

Norma

[Biz Markie]

Cool, Norma!!  Glad to have a partner in crime!

I wanted to post some pics too.  The first are of my current 18.25oz (formula weight) dough ball following the formula at reply 67.  The flecks of germ are visible. The dough is 22 hours old.

The second pic is a before and after, showing the particle size following my attempt to grind the germ in a ceramic burr grinder.  I used the finest setting I could get it to.  It did make a difference as I think you can see, but at the end there were still some larger, darker flakes (which to me actually resemble Bran).

[norma427]

Cool, Norma!!  Glad to have a partner in crime!

I wanted to post some pics too.  The first are of my current 18.25oz (formula weight) dough ball following the formula at reply 67.  The flecks of germ are visible. The dough is 22 hours old.

The second pic is a before and after, showing the particle size following my attempt to grind the germ in a ceramic burr grinder.  I used the finest setting I could get it to.  It did make a difference as I think you can see, but at the end there were still some larger, darker flakes (which to me actually resemble Bran).

Biz,

Your 22 hr. old dough ball looks great!  Your attempt to grind the germ looks like it was quite successful too. 

I never tried a M&M pizza, so your opinion how the formula works out will be valuable because you have tasted a M&M pizza and you are going to try out more real M&M pizzas.

I like to test out different formulas to see how the pies turn out.  That is why I am also trying out the formula.  I won’t ever know if my pie or pies taste like a real M&M pizza.

I didn’t take a close-up picture of my dough ball, but the toasted wheat germ can be seen in the dough.

Will be looking forward to how your attempt at a M&M clone turns out.

Norma

[Biz Markie]

Thanks for the compliments, Norma.  Shame you don't have an MM nearby, but at least your wallet will be better off . .it's pricey!

[norma427]

Shame you don't have an MM nearby, but at least your wallet will be better off . .it's pricey!

Biz,

I also wish I had a M&M’s near me.  Their pizzas really look different from other pizzas I have tried.  The wheat germ and molasses are interesting to me in the formula.

On my other clone attempt thread, other members have also helped me by making pies, and reporting on how they tasted in different formulas we tried.  Many of those members never tried the real pizzas from pizza place I was attempting to clone.

Norma

[Biz Markie]

Wellllll. ... ...

The pizza didn't turn out very well.  Most of it was my fault, but I'm not sure of the reasons behind some of the issues.

Here's the exact formula I used.  I separated the wheat germ out as a separate ingredient, so the percentages look a little different.

Flour   100.00%   10.66oz   Organic HG Flour (not sure of the manufacturer - bought in bulk)
Water  56.66%  6.04oz   Crystal Springs, about 79^oF
IDY   0.66%  0.07oz  SAF red
Salt   2.06%  0.22oz  Sea Salt
Oil   4.13%  0.44oz  La Tourangelle Grapeseed
Molasses  4.60%  0.49oz  Brer Rabbit Mild
Wheat Germ  3.10%  0.33oz  Hodgson Mill Untoasted
TOTAL   171.20%
I also added about 1/4 teaspoon Diastatic Barley Malt Powder (KA) because the Flour does not contain it.

I mixed the dough in my zojirushi about 14 minutes, added yeast after 3 mins of mixing.  This is pretty much my normal procedure though I've increased the mixing times a little bit lately.

Dough was actually in the fridge for about 26 hours, then room temp for about 2.5 hours.

The dough handled very well.  I was able to toss it with no problems and it opened pretty easily to 14''.  I used cornmeal for dusting rather than my usual semolina.  I did not roll up a rim as I often do.

Dressed it with a simple San Marzano sauce we made, plus some veggies and the Daiya mozzarella vegan cheese alternative.  Also some vegan pepperoni slices (quite yummy!).

I decided to try using my stone this time, so preheated it at 500 for 45 mins.  The pizza ended up in the oven for a total of 9 mins.  The final min was with the broiler to try to melt the Daiya better, etc. 

PROBLEMS:
1) I guess because I felt my last pie was underbaked, I went too far in the other direction and definitely overbaked this.  Parts of the very outer rim of the bottom of the crust were slightly blackened.  the whole rim was more crunchy than chewy.  I basically ruined the pizza, at least for comparison purposes.  The crust had no discernible flavor other than the garlic butter (melted Earth Balance sticks + garlic powder) I brushed on after baking.
2) Aside from my burning the pizza for all practical purposes, there was very little oven spring on the rim.  Except for in a few areas, the rim was quite flat.  I guess since I normally roll a little rim before baking, I am used to pretty large rims.  But even so, I was very disappointed in the lack of oven spring. Not sure what caused this.  I'd be grateful for any advice.  I feel like I'm cheating if I roll-up a rim, but after tonight I may embrace the practice!

OTHER OBSERVATIONS
The Daiya cheese was overpowering.  We used a whole bag which is 0.5 ounces more than recommended for a 14'' pizza on their website.  The flavor was good (though strong) but it has a texture that's very gooey.  I would be willing to try it again but with a much lower amount.  Another interesting fact about this stuff is that once it's been melted and it dries/cools, it's like SUPER GLUE!  It had to be scraped off my counter and the dishes were a bear to get clean.  Very odd.  Wonder what it's doing to my insides!   

So needless to say I'm quite dejected after this total failure.  This happens with some frequency, so I'm used to it.  I'll bounce back.

I'll maybe post some pics tomorrow but even those didn't turn out too well! 

[Pete-zza]

Biz,

I'm sorry that you didn't get the results you had hoped for. Reverse engineering and cloning someone else's pizza is a challenging exercise, and failures frequently happen. I plan to compose a more complete reply but I would first like to see the photos to see if there is anything in them to offer up clues as to what went wrong. Also, in the meantime, can you answer the following questions:

1. What was the brand of the high-gluten organic flour you used?

2. Did you use the normal dough making cycle of your Zo or was it programmed to do only mixing and kneading?

3. Was there a reason why you did not form a distinct rim on the skin, given that that is a feature that is employed by MM?

4. What type and brand of oven are you using and on which oven rack position did you bake the pizza before moving it up to the broiler area?

5. Did you bake the pizza directly on the pizza stone?

6. Did you detect sweetness in the finished crust?

7. Do you plan to buy a dough ball on your planned visit to an MM store tomorrow?

As you can see from the ingredients list for the Daiya cheese at http://www.daiyafoods.com/products/mozza.asp, the Daiya mozzarella clone contains some unusual ingredients.

Last year, I prepared a list of factors that are commonly implicated in oven spring. You might want to look over the list to see if anything jumps out at you. The list is at Reply 515 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104559.html#msg104559.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Yesterday, I spent a great deal of time researching wheat germ. In the course of that research, a company by the name Garuda International, Inc. kept coming up time and again. One of the products that that company specializes in is defatted wheat germ. And, judging from what I read about their products, including that company’s literature on their many forms and variations of wheat germ, they seem to be real experts on that product. So, I decided to call the company to discuss wheat germ.

I ended up speaking with a director. I told him about the Mellow Mushroom operation, including their use of a commissary to make their pizza dough, and their use of Vitamin-E enriched high-gluten flour with wheat germ to make their pizza dough. I mentioned that I had recently sampled an MM pizza made using such a dough during a recent trip to Florida and was intrigued by the dough that was used to make the pizza. I told him that I could not see any visible signs of wheat germ in the finished crust or crumb, like speckling, but that I had read in one of the Garuda documents at their website, at http://www.garudaint.com/product.php?id=20&prod_code=DWGERMRF&rb=wheatgerm, that wheat germ can come in a form that is flour-like in consistency.

I learned several interesting things about wheat germ from the Garuda rep. First, their products, being industrial products, are not like the wheat germs that are sold in supermarkets, like the Kretschmer’s. The Garuda wheat germ products are also defatted. That alone gives their products a minimum of one-year shelf life. That means little fear of rancidity although there is still a small amount of the original fat in the germ that could pose rancidity problems if the product is not used within the recommended time. The defatting process also removes most of the natural Vitamin E. However, if desired, Vitamin E can be added back to the defatted wheat germ. The form of Vitamin E that is typically added is d-alpha tocopherol (acetate), which is a synthetic form of Vitamin E. Because it is a synthetic form, it is much less expensive than the natural form of Vitamin E.

As we discussed the flour-like form of defatted wheat germ, I asked if the wheat germ in that form would add color to the finished dough. He said that the raw flour-like wheat germ looks a lot like ordinary flour (it is described as “light tan in color”) and it would not be likely to add much in the way of color to the dough. Nor would it be detectible visually in the dough. From a taste standpoint, the Garuda literature says that it is “reminiscent of raw wheat germ”. When I asked the Garuda rep how much of that form of wheat germ might be used in a pizza dough, he said that one would perhaps not use much, most likely less than 10%. He told me that I had already found the Garuda document that describes most closely what I am looking for. And it is a product that can be added to flour in a commissary setting just as any other ingredient. It can also be used in a pre-mix.

Garuda also makes a toasted defatted wheat germ product as described in another Garuda document, at http://www.garudaint.com/product.php?id=24&prod_code=DWGERMMTF. According to that document, the wheat germ “is toasted to a medium brown color and is milled to a flour-like consistency. The flavor is toasty with a mild, lingering nut-like taste.” As between the raw and toasted wheat germ products, if MM is using a defatted wheat germ, I would think that the toasted version would be the one to use. It would also add a bit more color to the dough and more flavor yet not be detectible as speckling in the finished crust.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I did find a portion controller in the 8-ounce size with a black handle but the description of the length of the controller was unclear. I have asked for clarification and will report back if my inquiry is answered.

As I mentioned earlier, I had found an 8-ounce portion controller from another company but that it was not clear as to the length of the product. The company is Thunder Group and the product is shown at at http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/thunder-group/slld008a/p362311.aspx. It will be noted that the photo of the 8-ounce portion controller shows a blue handle but at http://www.instawares.com/thunder-group-portion-controller.thu-slld008a.0.7.htm?Ts=0 the device (with the same part number) is shown with what appears to be a black handle, or else it is a lousy photo. The length of the handle of the 8-ounce controllers is given as 14.63". I inquired as to whether that dimension was the length of the entire product or just the handle, and the answer came today that it is the entire length of the product. Thunder Group also offers a 6-ounce portion controller, at http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/thunder-group/slld008a/p362311.aspx. The length of that portion controller product is 14.25".

Peter

[briterian]

I baked up a 5 day dough using Petes recipe and was also disappointed.  Dough was great to handle but was too dense and ended up drying out.  It had nice flavor but even in a 500 oven I had to bake it for about 12 min to get any crunch.   I was afraid to bake higher due to molasses .   I feel like there was not enough yeast and wonder if molasses and germ effect the yeast.  Next time I'll try the 24 hr dough and bake at 600+.   Pics coming soon.  I still have hope.   I used primo  bromated hg flour.

[Pete-zza]

Brian,

I think you can see how difficult it is to reverse engineer and clone someone else's pizza dough with just limited information. I normally wouldn't have recommended a five-day version because it is not what MM does, but did so in case Biz wanted to go that route pending his trip to a local MM store to try to get more information.

Were you able to detect sweetness in the finished crust? And was the color like the color of an MM crust?

Wheat germ will have an effect on the hydration. Molasses is actually good for the yeast since it contains simple sugars, which is what the yeast uses as food. I wouldn't think that the small amount of wheat germ would have much of an effect on the yeast. It may be that the hydration has to be increased. Hopefully, Norma's test will tell us more.

Peter

[briterian]

Link to pics:  http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/cgPFrZFK/1/5281895.

Nice sweetness.   I think the flavor was pretty close.   I was at about 57-59% probably.  Issue was the lack of rise.  Hope to do the 24 hr soon.

[Pete-zza]

Brian,

Your pizza actually looks quite tasty but I can understand that you need more of a rise. Maybe increasing the hydration and the amount of yeast will help. As mentioned earlier, MM may be using a lot of yeast in their dough balls because freezing kills off some of the yeast. We are trying to come up with a fresh dough version. I have no idea as to how the MM stores that make the dough in the stores use the dough from a timing standpoint. That is, do they make a same day dough or a cold fermented dough? Are the MM stores near you in Ohio using fresh or frozen dough balls? I intentionally recited a small amount of yeast in the clone dough formulation you used because the fermentation period was expected to be much longer than usual. That is what I did with the 3-8 day PJ clone formulation I came up with. However, the dough had a much higher thickness factor and a lot of oil and sugar, both of which yield a softer crust.

Did you form a distinct rim on the skin you used to make the pizza?

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I wanted to ask you a question how you decided on such a high oil amount for the M&M clone formulas?  The formulas contained almost as much oil as I used in the formula for the NJ Boardwalk thread.  Do you think the amount of oil with the lower hydration has anything to do with how much oven spring the pizza will have?  I wonder about oil amount when I mixed the dough.  The dough today is fermenting about the same as my last attempt at a Mack’s pizza.  Did you decide on the oil amount from the Papa John’s thread?

Norma

[Biz Markie]

Sorry for the hiatus.  .. . work got in the way today!

Peter, here are the responses to your questions:

1. What was the brand of the high-gluten organic flour you used?

   I had to call the store to find out. . . it's Heartland Mills.  Upon checking their website and calling them, I discovered that they now call this flour "Strong Bread" and it only has a 12.5% protein content.  So a big change from my first attempt using KASL.  I don't think I'll use this flour for pizza again, at least while I still have some KASL (which I don't know if I can continue to keep around).

2. Did you use the normal dough making cycle of your Zo or was it programmed to do only mixing and kneading?

   I did not use the normal dough course.  I used the "homemade" course which allows you to turn on and off each individual cycle. . .I have it set only to "KNEAD" for 15 minutes.  I've been using this method for months with all my pizza doughs with no problems.  My only thing is that I don't know how the Zo mixing times compare to standard stand mixer times.

3. Was there a reason why you did not form a distinct rim on the skin, given that that is a feature that is employed by MM?

   I actually didn't realize MM formed a rim on the skin.  For some reason I've always felt shame for doing so.  Not sure where I got the idea but I've always felt that this was a novice's shortcut.  So this time I thought I would not form a rim to see what kind of spring I could get on the rim just from the oven.  I much prefer the results when I do form a rim on the skin so maybe I'll keep doing that.

4. What type and brand of oven are you using and on which oven rack position did you bake the pizza before moving it up to the broiler area?

  I have a piece of junk electric Hotpoint oven which until very recently only had 1 oven rack! I heated the stone for 45 mins on the absolute lowest position then baked it on the second-to-lowest rack.  I don't think I actually moved it up to the broiler - I just turned the broiler on for about a minute.    

5. Did you bake the pizza directly on the pizza stone?

   Yes indeed!  Used cornmeal on the peel and slid the sucker right on there.  BTW, I'm using an Emile Henry "Flame" 14'' Pizza Stone.

6. Did you detect sweetness in the finished crust?

  No, but I think that's because the rim was so thin and overcooked to boot, so the crust basically tasted like a cracker.
 

7. Do you plan to buy a dough ball on your planned visit to an MM store tomorrow?

  I'm considering it but I don't know what I'd do with it.  Meaning, I don't know how long it would need to ferment if any, etc, etc.  But it would be quite interesting to observe the color and texture.  

Here are some pictures of the failed second attempt (the first being my own guesstimate formula which turned out much better, but more so because I formed a rim and baked it differently).
1. Skin with sauce
2. Skin with cheese
3. finished pie.  the flash makes it look darker than it really was
4. rim shot of one of the smaller-rimmed pieces.  Due to my novice skin-shaping skills, the rim is always thicker in some sections than others.
5. rim shot of the highest rimmed piece.