Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 218446 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2011, 03:26:12 PM »
Peter,

I must have missed the link you provided before.  I can understand the practical approach would be to just add some wheat germ, to Prairie Dancer flour.

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2011, 05:22:14 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, the Prairie Dancer flour already has the wheat germ in it but not the bran.

BTW, I spoke with a technical person from Pendleton Mills today on another matter and, while I had his attention, I asked him how one would normally produce a flour with the wheat germ already in it. He said that in the Pendleton mill both the bran and wheat germ are separated from the flour and sold separately. He said that the wheat germ would be in flat fragments and one would perhaps want to run it through another mill to make it into more of a powder. When I mentioned the Prairie Dancer flour, he said that their method of milling would also work but might require other steps (which we didn't get into). He also mentioned that flour with wheat germ already in it is prone to spoilage because of the oil going rancid, especially over time and in warm climates. He agreed that keeping the wheat germ separate and refrigerating it would give the end user better control over the final product.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 03:58:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2011, 10:55:51 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, the Prairie Dancer flour already has the wheat germ in it but not the bran.

BTW, I spoke with a technical person from Pendleton Mills today on another matter and, while I had his attention, I asked him how one would normally produce a flour with the wheat germ already in it. He said that in the Pendleton mill both the bran and wheat germ are separated from the fllour and sold separately. He said that the wheat germ would be in flat fragments and one would perhaps want to run it through another mill to make it into more of a powder. When I mentioned the Prairie Dancer flour, he said that their method of milling would also work but might require other steps (which we didn't get into). He also mentioned that flour with wheat germ already in it is prone to spoilage because of the oil going rancid, especially over time and in warm climates. He agreed that keeping the wheat germ separate and refrigerating it would give the end user better control over the final product.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for explaining that the Prairie Dancer flour already has the wheat germ in it but not the bran.

It is interesting that flour with wheat germ in it is prone to spoilage from the oil going rancid.  That sounds something like when I ground the whole wheat grains from the fields, and had to put the ground grains in the refrigerator. I know I ground the whole grains and nothing was taken out of them, but I am always wondering how different flours are milled.

Thanks for the information.

Norma

Offline dwighttsharpe

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 97
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2011, 02:37:55 PM »
No recipes or formulas? Disappointing.

That picture of the pizza in the second post looks good.

I'll be glad when I can make it.
Dwight

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2011, 04:43:14 PM »
No recipes or formulas? Disappointing.

I can't speak for anyone else on this forum but I am not prepared at this time to post a dough formulation. Reverse engineering and cloning someone else's pizza with limited information is hard work and takes time. However, if you can't wait, you might want to use one of the dough calculating tools and superimpose what I and others have written in this thread about the MM dough and pizzas onto one of the Papa John's clone dough formulations at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html. Also, if you live in a Mellow Mushroom area and can purchase either fresh or frozen dough balls from an MM store, you can examine them and, if you are willing, share whatever you learn with the folks on this forum. You can do likewise with purchased MM pizzas.

Peter

Offline briterian

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 161
  • Location: Cincinnati
  • and some think pizza's easy!
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2011, 07:04:22 PM »
We ate at MM last week and I took a pic of the bottom of the crust.  Here you go:

Cornmeal and a nice thick crunchy brown crust.  I plan to try this crust. Going to use PJClone and sub molasses for sugar.

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2011, 11:48:47 PM »
Hey y'all!

Sorry for the protracted absence. ... I was out of town for 3 weeks and wasn't able to do any baking or pizza making of any kind, and had limited access to the Forum.

I just saw all the activity on this thread. ..phenomenal!  Pete - I have not read your treatise regarding your MM experience but can't wait to dig into it.

In the meantime though, I took a somewhat wild stab at a MM-inspired dough today.  I was shooting for a 24-hour usability window since Sunday night is our fam's pizza night.
Basically all I was trying to do was incorporate the Wheat Germ and lower the molasses content from previous PJ Clone doughs I had made with what I now realize was way too much.
Since this is just a slightly educated guess formula, we don't have to dissect it unless someone wants to.

Flour   100.00%
Water   58.77%
IDY   0.50%
Salt   1.75%
Oil   6.76%
Molasses   5.00%
Wheat Germ   1.75%
TOTAL   174.53%  (22 ounce ball weight)

I used KASL, Crystal Springs Spring Water (what I use in all breads/doughs), SAF Instant (Red) yeast, fine sea salt, Berrio "Extra Light Tasting Olive Oil", Brer Rabbit Mild molasses, and Hodgson Mill Untoasted Wheat Germ. 
This was my first attempt to really manipulate a formula to try to achieve a particular fermentation time.  So not sure if it will turn out or not.  So far after several hours in the fridge it looks pretty good though.

Anyway - I can report back on how this dough performs after tomorrow night.  But I definitely will go back and read your post, Pete, and get back to you. 
I also really need to visit an MM store soon and just remind myself of what their crust tastes like. . it's been far too long.

Good night!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2011, 09:24:46 AM »
Biz,

You did a nice job with your stab at an MM clone test dough formulation, except that I might have used a slightly lower hydration value to compensate for the increase in "wetness" of the dough due to the large amounts of oil and molasses. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell at this point what all of the baker's percents are, but hopefully your test will be instructive, especially how the dough behaves from a hydration and handling standpoint and final crumb structure. However, if your dough ball actually weighs 22 ounces, that places it between a 14" and 16" MM dough ball size. You can trim two ounces off of your dough ball to make the 14" size or you can make a 15" pizza if you can make that size on your stone. You will also want to monitor the bottom crust coloration when you bake the pizza. If it browns too quickly, you can raise the pizza to a higher rack position in your oven and hope that the top of the pizza doesn't bake too much. That approach is the one I used to make the Papa John's clone pizzas.

I look forward to your results.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2011, 09:50:40 AM »
Thanks for the encouragement!  Yeah, I was pretty excited when I saw that some of your proposed percentages were pretty close to mine, since I hadn't even read your post!

I agree that the hydration was probably a goof on my part.  I think my logic was that I was reducing the molasses amount from my previous PJ Clone doughs, so I should increase the hydration.  Maybe not a bad idea but I think I bumped it up too much.

The dough was actually slightly sticky (wanted to stick to my hands a fair bit) and softer than my PJ Clone doughs in the past. 

I'm hoping it will still be workable.

As for the dough ball weight - unfortunately all I have is a 14.4 inch round stone and a 14 inch screen.  I was considering rolling up a rim prior to baking, which I do sometimes because I just like the big, chewy crust.  I agree that if I don't roll up a rim, it will be much thicker than a true 14'' MM pie.

So far the fermentation seems to be on track. ..it's risen about 75% or so, I'd say, since I believe 3:15pm Central time yesterday.

Will keep you posted!


Offline Tampa

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1652
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2011, 04:02:25 PM »
Peter,
Amazing contribution to the MM thread.  Really good work.
Dave

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2011, 04:21:21 PM »
Peter,
Amazing contribution to the MM thread.  Really good work.
Dave

Dave,

Thank you. This has been an interesting and informative exercise. Like other similar exercises, I have learned that the pizza dough formulation has to fit the business model and is, in fact, dictated to a large degree by the business model. In the case of MM, one also has to keep in mind how the MM business evolved from the time that the original hippy-like founders of the company came forth with the idea of using natural and healtful ingredients, including the high-gluten flour with wheat germ, bottled spring water, and molasses instead of refined white sugars. I have been recently looking at a lot of the MM You Tube videos and they paint a pretty good picture of the way the MM chain is being promoted. It is a tricky business because of their extensive menu of food and beer offerings and reliance on high turnover, low-cost labor, but the formula may be a good one for a good businessperson willing to work hard to make a success out of the business.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2011, 05:20:27 PM »
Over the weekend, I sent an email to Tim Huff, a technical director at General Mills, about flours with wheat germ. He replied today by saying that he has heard of wheat germ fortified flours but hasn't worked with them. He also said that GM does not make such a product.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2011, 06:54:35 PM »
Having struck out with General Mills, as reported in my last post, I decided to call Montana Milling (http://www.montanamilling.com/index.html) in Great Falls, Montana. I ended up speaking with a sales representative about their flours. I was most interested in the Prairie Dancer flour that I had earlier discovered through a Google search and that I had mentioned in an earlier post. As I previously mentioned, that flour has most of the bran sifted out of the flour during milling but retains the wheat germ. As it turns out, that product is no longer sold under the Prairie Dancer brand. It is now sold under the Montana Milling name. I was told that websites using the Prairie Dancer name need updating to reflect the name change.

One of the things I learned from speaking with the Montana Mills sales representative is they only mill to order. They do not mill flours in advance and package and store them in a warehouse somewhere. The flour that used to be called Prairie Dancer is milled from whole-wheat flour from which most of the bran has been sifted, but leaving most of the wheat germ intact. Interestingly, once the bran is removed, the flour can no longer legally be called a “whole-wheat” flour. It can be called a “wheat” flour or a white flour, although I was told that the flour actually has a “medium tan” color. When I asked about the flour’s protein content, the sales rep told me that her best guess is that the flour has a protein content of around 13-13.5% (other types of flours at the mill can go over 14%). The flour is milled from hard red spring wheat, which suggests that the flour has a high protein content.

When I asked the sales rep the rated absorption value of the flour, she said that that was not something that they test for and, hence, did not know the answer. However, she told me that that falling number is around 350-400. That high an FN value tells us that the flour is not supplemented with barley malt or enzymes. As it also turns out, there are no vitamin supplements, iron or any other additives, like ascorbic acid, bromates, etc., added to the flour. There is no chemical bleaching of the flours. I asked whether the flour was organic and was told that the flour can be procured organic or nonorganic inasmuch as their mill is certified for organic production. I had asked about the organic feature since I read on a few occasions that the flour used by Mellow Mushroom is organic. That is a slippery term so I wanted to see if organic was a real possibility and not just sloppiness on the part of the people who write about MM. Montana Milling does not do any premixing of ingredients. That was a possibility that occurred to me for MM since a pre-mix would simplify their preparation of dough in their commissary. It is still possible that a third party produces the pre-mix, so a pre-mix can’t be ruled out completely.

I also explored the potential rancidity problem with the Montana Milling flours because of the oil content of the wheat germ. I was told that the flour holds up well in Montana where it is dry but that in a humid environment, like the Southeast (which is where a large number of the Mellow Mushroom stores are situated), the flour can spoil more quickly. This might not be a problem with Mellow Mushroom if its commissary is humidity controlled, which is a common measure used in commissaries. I learned this some time ago when I was researching the Papa John’s business model and methods. It still remains a possibility that MM supplements a high-gluten flour with wheat germ, which is something that seems reasonable in a commissary environment.

For those who are interested in replicating the MM dough, a flour such as described above--the former Prairie Dancer flour--might be explored to see if the flour can produce a pizza dough that has the same or similar functional and operational characteristics as an MM dough. The only other possibility that I can think of is to supplement a good high-gluten flour with wheat germ. It is indeed interesting that even the experts in the field couldn’t come up with better solutions or options.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2011, 06:54:46 PM »
I look forward to your results.

Peter

Well, I made the pie last night.

I will apologize up-front about not being more scientific in my approach and in my methods.. ..For one, I only make one pie a week for Sunday night "Pizza Night" for the family.. . .since this is the family meal for the night, I tend to be mostly concerned with just getting it on the table and not screwing it up.   So I don't often take time to snap photos or things like that :(

Also - I don't feel like I have the acumen at this point to know a whole lot about what I'm doing :P

But anyway - I pulled the dough out about 2 hours ahead of time to a room temp of probably 76-79 degrees.  In that time it rose perhaps 10%.  I dusted the counter with semolina and turned out the dough.  I dusted it with semolina and hand-stretched it to about 9 inches or so.  The dough was pretty extensible (I think that's the right word). ... stretched very easily.  It was so floppy that I was loathe to attempt tossing it, so I just stretched it with the backs of my fists, which worked well.  
As mentioned previously, I sort of realized this is really too much dough for a 14'', so I stretched it bigger than my 14'' screen and then rolled the rim to make it fit.  
I should also pause here to confess that my focus has really been entirely on the dough.  I love MM's toppings too, but we tend to have set toppings that we use here at home, plus we try to eat vegan.
So after I got the skin ready, we dressed it and baked it at 500 (high as mine goes) on the second-lowest rack position for 8 minutes.
Not being a very good judge of done-ness, I decided to pull it out at this point, fearing an overbaked crust more than an underbaked one.

The rim was quite large due to the artificial pre-bake rim.  The color of the crumb was much closer to MM - it was a mild golden color, not brown like my previous attempts, caused by too much molasses I think.
I fear the pie was underbaked.  The crust was pretty bready and very soft.  It was also surprisingly sweet. . .sweeter than I expected given the lower molasses content than previous attempts.  My palate also seemed to be yearning for a bit more saltiness. .. my wife agreed.  Not sure if this is legitimate or if it was due to the underbake.

However, to me the flavor was the closest I've come to MM yet.  This is all subjective of course, but I was encouraged by it.  

I think the under-bakedness definitely detracted from the overall appeal (as well as a new sauce we tried and some other topping issues).

Lessons Learned:  I think I will lower the hydration a good bit and possibly increase the wheat germ.  The Germ flavor - if my palate is correct - seemed to be more of an "ah-ha!" factor than the molasses.  In my opinion it was the biggest factor contributing to the MM likeness.
I will definitely lower the ball weight and not form an artificial rim.
I wonder if more salt would be in order as well, but my inexperience has me worried about adversely impacting the fermentation in doing so.
I also wonder what a longer cold fermentation would do to the flavors as well.

Well, that's about all I can report for now. . sorry again for the lack of technicality.  Cheers!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2011, 07:43:23 PM »
Biz,

No need to apologize about the technical aspects of what you did with the clone MM dough. What you have reported should help us with the next MM test dough.

Can you tell me whether the crust was sweeter than a typical MM crust that you have had in the past? Also, you might want to use cornmeal as your bench flour since that is what MM uses in its stores and contributes to the taste and texture of the crust.

I agree with you that the hydration should be lowered. Raising the salt should not be a problem. I think I would also raise the amount of wheat germ and lower the amount of oil so that the finished crust isn't quite as bread-like.

On the matter of the duration of fermentation, I read or heard somewhere (maybe in one of the MM videos I looked at) that the MM dough is a 48-hour process. If the dough ball is a frozen dough ball, allowing it to defrost in the cooler for a day and holding it under refrigeration for another day would be a 48-hour exercise and quite normal. It is when you get to the third day, that problems with defrosted dough balls usually arise.

When do you want to make the next clone MM dough and pizza? I assume that it would be 14".

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2011, 09:12:13 PM »
Can you tell me whether the crust was sweeter than a typical MM crust that you have had in the past?
Unfortunately I can't say with a lot of certainty.  My memory does seem to tell me yes.  A problem in this process is that I haven't made it to a MM store in several months.  It's high on our to-do list, and clearly would help with this whole process.  While I may tinker with my own doughs in the meantime, it may be best to wait to post more formulas here until I can actually have more of a comparison.

Also, you might want to use cornmeal as your bench flour since that is what MM uses in its stores and contributes to the taste and texture of the crust.
Good point.  I will definitely do that.

When do you want to make the next clone MM dough and pizza? I assume that it would be 14".
My mind has been racing with what kinds of tweaks I want to make next, one of which is a longer fermentation.  The PJ Clone doughs I have made the most of and with the most success have been 5-day doughs (I believe your original PJ Clone), so I was considering making one Tuesday night for use this coming Sunday night.  In that case of course I'd have to reduce the yeast, but I will also attempt your suggestions of lowering the hydration and oil and increasing the salt and germ.  

If you (or anyone) has any other suggestions, let me know.  Oh, and I also wondered about switching to soybean or grapeseed oil (the latter I've used a lot with good results).  I had intended to use soybean with the formula posted above but I was out.

Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2011, 10:19:02 AM »
Biz,

In my experience, the most effective way to replicate a given pizza dough, whether it is an MM dough or some other, is to try to come as close as possible to the original, in as many respects as possible. Of course, you won’t be able to achieve this one-hundred percent because you won’t have access, or easy access, to many of the ingredients used to make the original and there will be differences in oven and bake protocol. However, it is the best place to start in my opinion and from which to adapt the dough formulation to your particular circumstances once problem areas are identified. There is nothing wrong with taking a detour or a different route but that will take you away from the desired endpoint and goal rather than toward it. You might even end up being more confused than when you started. You will note from the Papa John's clone thread that I spent a lot of time to come up with the version that I thought came closest to an original PJ
dough. It was only then that I came up with other versions to meet the needs of end users who did not
want to wait 5-8 days to make their clone PJ pizzas.

Some time today, I will set forth a couple of test formulations, one for those who want to try to replicate the MM dough based on our best intelligence to date and another one for you to use as a detour. Making a five-day or more cold fermented MM clone dough poses some challenges, so you might want to try both formulations so that you increase the chances of having a functional dough to make pizza from next Sunday. But, whichever way you decide to proceed, it would be helpful to see some photos if that is possible so that we can compare your results with those achieved at a typical MM or otherwise learn from your experience.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 03:46:02 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2011, 03:08:13 PM »
Based on the information that has been assembled in this thread to date, I have set forth below a test MM clone dough formulation for those who have the necessary ingredients to make such a dough. I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with that formulation. As noted below, I decided on a hydration of 55%. The actual value will be a bit higher (just shy of 56%) because the molasses contains about 22% water. Also, both the molasses and the oil will increase the “wetness” and plasticity of the dough and its extensibility when opened up to make the skin. Depending on the outcome, further adjustments in hydration and the levels of molasses and oil may be needed. Ideally, one wants to achieve a fairly dense/stiff dough but one with still enough hydration so that it can be opened up and formed into a skin that can be tossed and twirled, much as shown in the various YouTube videos referenced earlier in this thread.

For the flour blend, which comprises both an unbleached high-gluten flour and wheat germ, I decided to go with 3% wheat germ. Normally, wheat germ in a milled flour represents about 2 ½% of the wheat berry. I decided on 3% just to see if we can establish a threshold for the wheat germ and to see if that amount will increase the color of the flour and finished crust and crumb.

I also lowered the amounts of molasses and oil from my earlier estimates. That was done to keep the finished crumb from being too bread like. I also increased the amount of salt based on Biz’s and his wife’s perception that the last MM clone pizza that he made needed more salt. For the yeast, I elected an amount to allow for a one day cold fermentation yet be sufficient to assist a good oven spring given that the dough may be on the stiff side.

I assumed a pizza size of 14” and a nominal thickness factor of 0.11693, which is the thickness factor mentioned earlier that is associated with an MM dough ball used to make an MM 14” pizza. I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, on the assumption that the dough will be made in a basic home stand mixer.

Here is the test MM clone dough formulation:

Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%):
Spring Water (55%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Molasses (4.5%):
Total (166.1%):
311.53 g  |  10.99 oz | 0.69 lbs
171.34 g  |  6.04 oz | 0.38 lbs
1.87 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
6.23 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.12 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
12.46 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.74 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
14.02 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.02 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
517.44 g | 18.25 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118567
*The Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend comprises 302.18 grams (10.66 ounces) of unbleached (unbromated) high-gluten flour and 9.35 grams (0.33 ounces) of wheat germ.
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.11693 and corresponds to a dough ball weight of 18 ounces; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2011, 03:21:15 PM »
Biz,

Until you are able to make a visit to your local MM store to revisit their pizzas in light of what you have been doing at home from a cloning standpoint, if you want to experiment with a long, cold fermented MM clone dough (about 5 days), you might consider the MM clone dough formulation set forth below. It mirrors the MM clone dough formulation as set forth in the last post but for the amount of yeast. The comments set forth in the last post apply here also.

Since you have prepared doughs (the Papa John’s clone doughs) that are low in yeast but can sustain a long, cold fermentation, you should prepare the MM clone dough the same way as you have been doing. For others, I suggest that the instructions given at the Papa John’s clone thread at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197 be followed except that the molasses can be added to the water. Also, in lieu of a semolina-based bench flour, I suggest that cornmeal be used since that is what MM uses in its stores.

Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%):
Spring Water (55%):
IDY (0.14%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Molasses (4.5%):
Total (165.64%):
312.39 g  |  11.02 oz | 0.69 lbs
171.81 g  |  6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs
0.44 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
6.25 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.12 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
12.5 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
14.06 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.03 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
517.44 g | 18.25 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118567
*The Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend comprises 303.02 grams (10.69 ounces) of unbleached (unbromated) high-gluten flour and 9.37 grams (0.33 ounces) of wheat germ.
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.11693 and corresponds to a dough ball weight of 18 ounces; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

The amount of IDY in the above dough formulation is a bit less than 3/16 teaspoon, or just under three of the “pinch” measuring spoons for those who have mini-teaspoon sets such as shown, for example, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264. For those who do not have mini-measuring spoons, using 1/8 teaspoon plus almost half again should come pretty close.

If the above dough formulation works out for you and the pizza you plan to make will be a vegan pizza, I assume that that means that you will not be using any cheeses on the pizza, including the dusting of the baked rim of the pizza crust with grated Parmesan cheese. To the extent that you use a tomato-based pizza sauce, I suggest about 5.5-6ounces of pizza sauce, by volume. For those who might choose to try the above dough formulation and are not vegans, I suggest about 7.5 ounces of shredded low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, by weight. For pepperoni pizza lovers, I would use 22 pepperoni slices. To be true to a real MM pizza, the baked rim of the pizza should be brushed with butter (including garlic-flavored butter) and dusted with grated Parmesan cheese.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2011, 07:11:41 PM »
After my recent exchanges with flour experts at Montana Milling and General Mills, as recently reported in this thread, and after seeing that a giant like General Mills does not have a wheat germ flour product, and that its flour expert couldn’t even enlighten me on the subject, I came away with the impression that maybe Mellow Mushroom does not use a flour with the bran removed but with the wheat germ intact, and is perhaps supplementing its high-gluten flour with wheat germ. So, I decided to dig further on the wheat germ part of the flour blend.

By way of recapitulation, the language that is often seen in the literature, and which originated with MM, is that their dough is made from “Vitamin-E enriched high-gluten flour with wheat germ”. As previously reported in this thread, I had assumed that the Vitamin-E enrichment part of the above-quoted language was in reference to the Vitamin E that is naturally present in the wheat germ.

However, after researching wheat germ today, I discovered that there are brands of wheat germ that are actually enriched with Vitamin E. Two such brands are the Kretschmer toasted wheat germ and the Mother’s toasted wheat germ. In the case of the Kretschmer product, the added Vitamin E is Vitamin E acetate (see the Nutritional Info at http://www.quakeroats.com/products/more-products-from-quaker/content/cereals/kretschmer-toasted-wheat-germ.aspx), which is essentially a dry form of Vitamin E. The Mother’s wheat germ product also has added Vitamin E but the form is not identified. Not all toasted wheat germs are Vitamin-E enriched but I did not find any raw wheat germ products that are Vitamin-E enriched. Interestingly, as I found at the foodservicedirect.com website, which offers both brands of toasted wheat germ, the shelf life of both of those products is 540 days. Of course, once a bottle is opened, it is a good idea to refrigerate it.

I also did some research on how much of the flour in a recipe can be replaced with wheat germ. What I found is that the amount of added wheat germ can be small, such as a few teaspoons or tablespoons, but perhaps the most common suggestion was to replace ¼ of the flour with wheat germ, and as much as half. In the MM clone dough formulations I posted, I looked only to replace the wheat germ that is removed during milling. If MM is, in fact, using a toasted wheat germ that is enriched with Vitamin E, then that opens up the possibility of adding more wheat germ than I suggested in the MM clone dough formulations I posted earlier today.

The above analysis might properly prompt one to ask whether “Vitamin-E enriched high-gluten flour with wheat germ” is the same as “High-gluten flour with Vitamin-E enriched wheat germ”. However, I have never seen or read of a flour that is Vitamin-E enriched. Also, when I did a Google search of the phrases “Vitamin-E enriched flour” and Vitamin-E enriched high-gluten flour” (with both phrases in quotes), I got very few hits and all of the hits for the “Vitamin-E enriched high-gluten flour” were in relation to Mellow Mushroom.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 07:30:33 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline briterian

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 161
  • Location: Cincinnati
  • and some think pizza's easy!
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2011, 11:49:10 AM »
Can't wait to try these doughs.  Pete - 2 questions.  Can I use canola or EVOO instead of soybean oil?  Also, do I brush the butter/parm on the crust before it bakes or after?  I'm going to back at 550 in my bakers pride P44 which should be interesting to see the bake time.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2011, 12:57:32 PM »
Can't wait to try these doughs.  Pete - 2 questions.  Can I use canola or EVOO instead of soybean oil?  Also, do I brush the butter/parm on the crust before it bakes or after?  I'm going to back at 550 in my bakers pride P44 which should be interesting to see the bake time.

Brian,

Yes, I think you should be able to use canola oil but I might not want to use EVOO because that might be a bit too strong on the flavor front. Maybe you can use a light, mild flavored olive oil. I did some searching to see if I could find what kind of oil MM uses in its doughs, given its emphasis on heatlh, but I couldn't find anything.

The rim of the crust should be brushed with butter after it is baked. The grated Parmesan cheese is sprinkled on the rim right after it is buttered.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2011, 09:31:17 AM »
Peter,

I may soon be visiting an MM store for intelligence-gathering purposes and to remind myself of the experience.

Is there anything from a reconnaissance perspective that I can/should do to benefit our experiment?


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23461
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2011, 03:21:08 PM »
Is there anything from a reconnaissance perspective that I can/should do to benefit our experiment?

Biz,

Can you tell me which MM you plan to visit and what kind of pizza(s) you think you might order?

There is a limit as to what you can learn about a pizza dough that comes from a commissary. One of the beauties of the commissary model is that the workers in the field do not have to know anything about the dough other than how to form skins, dress them and bake them. The commissary model shields the field workers from all the trade secrets and proprietary information that relate to the dough. To give you an example of how workers, even franchisee owners, are unaware of what is in a MM dough, look at 4:13 in the MM Germantown/Memphis, TN YouTube video at where the owner/franchisee mentions that the dough has a "touch of molasses in it" that gives the crust some of its "brown" and is "not sweet, just a hint". I would say that if you can taste a distinct sweetness, as I did, that is more than a hint.

What I would look for are the same sorts of things I described earlier in this thread at Reply 40, provided that your family does not make you sit alone at another table as you conduct your in-depth "examination" and the wait personnel and by-passers give you a funny look as they pass by your table and see you with scalpel and stethoscope in hand. You might also ask to be seated at a table near the ovens and, while you are waiting for your pizza(s), or after you have eaten, you might also go up to the work area and watch how the pizzas are made, especially the way that the dough balls are opened up and formed into skins with a pronounced rim, since that is what you will want to replicate at home. You might also make note of the make of the ovens. I have seen a couple different deck oven models in the MM videos I have viewed. I would also pay close attention to the color of the dough balls, since that is the color you will want to emulate at home. If you decide to purchase a dough ball, that can later be used for dough color comparison purposes. I personally think that the bulk of the color of an MM dough is from the molasses and that it would take a lot of wheat germ to produce the same degree of coloration in the dough. It is the balance of the molasses and wheat germ that you are after. I am leaning toward a toasted wheat germ since I did not find any brands of raw wheat germ that are enriched with Vitamin E. I think the toasting may yield more color.

Anything else you can learn will be pure gravy. For example, I wonder what kind of oil MM uses in its dough balls. But I would be surprised if anyone in the MM you will be visiting will know the answer. Even asking the question might bring you odd looks, although the question might be posed in the context of an allergy problem that you or a family member may have. MM is used to vegan/vegetarian/gluten-free/nutrition/allergy concerns, so you never know what you might learn.

Good luck. I look forward to your trip report.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 03:27:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2011, 03:39:49 PM »
We'd be visiting either the Nashville/Vanderbilt location or the Downtown Franklin (TN) location.  We used to always get the house special, but now that we're trying the Vegan thing, we'd have to do a veggie with no cheese.  However, I have heard that at least some stores offer a Vegan pizza with soy-based cheese.  If so, we'd probably try that in a Large.

Regarding intelligence-gathering, that's kinda what I was thinking as well.  My primary reason for going is to reacquaint myself with just the flavor of the crust.

I was also thinking along your same lines of trying to observe the dough balls for coloration, etc.  I may even purchase one to bring home.  

I'll let you know. ..... I will also be trying your formula for the 24-hour dough this weekend so will report on that, I hope, as well.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 03:43:33 PM by Biz Markie »