Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 210395 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #325 on: October 12, 2011, 07:36:31 AM »
I donít know how accurate these recipes are, and if Mellow Mushroom really gave their recipe out for Raisin Oatmeal Walnut Chewies, but in these articles it says Mellow Mushroom did give this recipe. I know these Raisin Oatmeal Walnut Chewies arenít anything about how MMís made their pizza dough, but I am just posting this to show how MM does use some ingredients that are more healthy in their recipes.  This recipe does sound good to me, because I like raisins, oatmeal, and walnuts.  The soy flour is interesting to me.
http://www.grouprecipes.com/88500/raisin-oatmeal-walnut-chewies.html
http://www.food.com/recipe/mellow-raisin-oatmeal-walnut-chew-cookies-from-mellow-mushroom-400521
http://www.ajc.com/living/content/printedition/2009/02/05/rest0205fd.html?cxntlid=inform_artr
In this article the oatmeal raisin cookie is mentioned.
http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/print-article-22906-print.html
http://www.mellowmushroom.com/public/files/menu/blowingrock.pdf

Sorry, if this post is off-topic.

Norma


Offline Ev

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #326 on: October 12, 2011, 08:46:30 AM »
Norma,
I haven't reheated my slices yet, so I don't have anything to report. However, I noticed the corn meal seems a little different on the first pie. What's up with that? >:D :-D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #327 on: October 12, 2011, 08:48:55 AM »
Norma,

I was anxiously awaiting the results of your latest MM clones inasmuch as I, too, made a clone MM pizza yesterday. In my case, I used 4% Brer Rabbit liquid molasses and 4% turbinado (raw cane) sugar (and 3% toasted Kretschmer's wheat germ). I detected a small increase in the sweetness of the finished crust but it was not like the degree of sweetness I detected in the sample MM pizza I had in Florida. I am beginning to wonder whether MM is using some kind of super sweet molasses or else it is loading up the dough with a lot of another sweetener that is much sweeter than molasses (see more on this below in my post directed to Biz). Maybe one of the other ADM dried molasses products, such as one of the ADM Dri-Mol dried molasses products, is sweeter on the palate than the other ADM dried molasses products you tried.

I still have one frozen MM clone dough ball left, the one I mentioned earlier with the 10% Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ. I will perhaps make a pizza out of that dough ball tomorrow (I am still working on leftovers). I will, of course, be interested in the effects of the larger amount of wheat germ, which was basically the sole purpose of the test, but I am not expecting a material increase in the sweetness of the finished crust.

I agree with Biz that your second pizza, the one made using the ADM 65 DMP, looks to be closer from the standpoint of crumb coloration to the MM pizza crust I had in Florida. I'm happy to hear that the dough formulation for that pizza worked out so well for you.

I also enjoyed the videos showing your efforts to toss and spin the skins. I think we are in the right spot from the standpoint of hydration of the various MM clone dough formulations. I have not had any problems with overextensibility of the skins I have made. I could toss and spin them as long as I wanted.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #328 on: October 12, 2011, 09:12:52 AM »
Norma,
I haven't reheated my slices yet, so I don't have anything to report. However, I noticed the corn meal seems a little different on the first pie. What's up with that? >:D :-D

Steve,

Lol, I forgot to post about the corn meal  :-D.  To explain, (you already know >:D) I had grabbed a bag of what I thought (they both look about the same, in color and texture) was corn meal off the shelf at market for the first pie ).  A little later, I noticed the bag I had used was graham cracker crumbs that I used for smores pizzas.  At least I couldn't taste the dough ball was coated in graham cracker crumbs and also the graham cracker crumbs were used on the peel for the dusting flour.  No one could have guessed that the dough ball was coated in graham cracker crumbs if I didn't see the mistake I made.    :o  Let me know if you reheat your slice if you can taste graham cracker crumbs in the crust, and also how the crust tastes in sweetness.  Some crusts do seem to have more sweetness after reheated.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #329 on: October 12, 2011, 09:37:51 AM »
I wonder how much I could increase the molasses before it would become noticeably darker to the naked eye.  I still think my last attempt wasn't quite sweet enough, but it was much better than my previous attempts.

I am starting to brainstorm too about the affects of longer or shorter fermentation periods and/or the affects of yeast amounts on the sweetness in the finished product.  I don't know much about such things, but part of me is thinking that if the yeast has less time to metabolize the sugars in the molasses, then they'll be present to the taster.  Or if very little yeast is used and a longer cold fermentation is employed, maybe the same thing would be true.  But this is all based on my very limited knowledge of baking chemistry.

Biz,

One of my earliest tests was to see how much molasses might be used to clearly manifest itself as sweetness in the finished crust. I used 7% Grandma's liquid molasses, which at the time was the only brand of liquid molasses I had on hand. At 7% molasses, the dough was considerably darker than the dough that MM is using. For that test, I had used a small amount of yeast and I let the dough cold ferment for three days before using, on the premise that such a protocol, or one similar to it (but with a shorter fermentation), might be used in the MM stores that do not use frozen dough balls. Interestingly, the finished crust did not taste overly sweet, and it was not as sweet as the MM crust I had in Florida. The distinct flavor of the molasses came through loud and clear, however. It was the result of this simple test that started me thinking about how much sweetness molasses can actually deliver to a finshed crust. That was the main reason why I started looking at honey and raw cane sugar to supplement the molasses and as the probable source of the sweetness in the MM finished crusts. To date, I have not seen anything to suggest that MM is using only molasses as the sweetener. As I noted in my last post to Norma, there would have to be a super sweet molasses out there somewhere to be able to do this. 

With respect to the amount of liquid molasses that can be used before the dough becomes too dark, my tests seem to suggest that the main source of the color in the dough (and pizza) is the molasses. I have been using KABF and vital wheat gluten as an alternative to the KASL but I did not detect much contribution to final dough color by the wheat germ, whether raw (Bob's Red Mill brand) or toasted (the Kretschmer's wheat germ), and even at a level of 10% in my most recent experiment. For my doughs, I found that using 4% molasses was enough to increase the darkness of the dough beyond the brown coffee filter I was using as a color benchmark. It's possible that using 3.5% molasses might be closer to that benchmark color. At this point, color of the dough is less important to me personally than getting the sweetness problem resolved. I actually like the flavor of molasses and if everything else was in order as far as replicating a real MM dough and pizza, it wouldn't bother me that the color of my crusts is darker than an MM crust. I will most likely always be limited to the ingredients that I can find at my local supermarket anyway.

Both of your comments and your instincts on the use of yeast and the related fermentation periods are well placed. Norma and I have been working with frozen MM clone dough balls simply to replicate what MM does for most of its units. We were also intentionally trying to minimize the fermentation of the doughs (limited to the defrost and temper periods) so that the sugars would not be prematurely depleted, and the yeast levels were kept higher than normal in order to compensate for the fact that freezing damages the yeast cells and reduces the fermentation capacity of the yeast. We also wanted to be sure that there would be enough yeast to raise the doughs given their fairly low hydration values. Using less yeast as you postulate would be an option for a room temperature fermented dough or one cold fermented for up to several days but it might not be enough for a frozen dough. However, because my frozen dough balls at 0.60% IDY seemed to perform well it did occur to me to consider lowering the amount of yeast in a future test. It is this kind of tinkering that one has to do to in projects like this where we have so little information to go on--such as an official ingredients list, nutrition facts or sources and brands of ingredients.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #330 on: October 12, 2011, 09:54:45 AM »
Norma,

I was anxiously awaiting the results of your latest MM clones inasmuch as I, too, made a clone MM pizza yesterday. In my case, I used 4% Brer Rabbit liquid molasses and 4% turbinado (raw cane) sugar (and 3% toasted Kretschmer's wheat germ). I detected a small increase in the sweetness of the finished crust but it was not like the degree of sweetness I detected in the sample MM pizza I had in Florida. I am beginning to wonder whether MM is using some kind of super sweet molasses or else it is loading up the dough with a lot of another sweetener that is much sweeter than molasses (see more on this below in my post directed to Biz). Maybe one of the other ADM dried molasses products, such as one of the ADM Dri-Mol dried molasses products, is sweeter on the palate than the other ADM dried molasses products you tried.

I still have one frozen MM clone dough ball left, the one I mentioned earlier with the 10% Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ. I will perhaps make a pizza out of that dough ball tomorrow (I am still working on leftovers). I will, of course, be interested in the effects of the larger amount of wheat germ, which was basically the sole purpose of the test, but I am not expecting a material increase in the sweetness of the finished crust.

I agree with Biz that your second pizza, the one made using the ADM 65 DMP, looks to be closer from the standpoint of crumb coloration to the MM pizza crust I had in Florida. I'm happy to hear that the dough formulation for that pizza worked out so well for you.

I also enjoyed the videos showing your efforts to toss and spin the skins. I think we are in the right spot from the standpoint of hydration of the various MM clone dough formulations. I have not had any problems with overextensibility of the skins I have made. I could toss and spin them as long as I wanted.

Peter

Peter,

I found your report very interesting that your sweetness in the finished crust of your pizza yesterday didnít give you the desired amount of sweetness as when you tasted the real MMís pizza in Florida.  To Steve, my taste testers and me, we all liked the amount of sweetness in the MM# 3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone Formulation.  I also wonder whether MM is using some kind of super sweet molasses, or else is using lot of another sweetener.  I know some molasses are sweeter than others.  Do you want me to try and request some of the ADM Dri-Mol samples?  

I also will be interested in your test frozen MM clone dough ball, with the 10% Kretschmerís toasted wheat germ added to see how that turns out.

I thought my second pizza (ADM 65 DMP) that you and Biz thought had better coloration was too dark.  I think the dough formulation you set-forth for the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP made an excellent pizza.  The rim was so moist, as can be seen in the pictures.  I never achieved that before with a lower hydration dough formula in my deck oven. Then to think it was mixed, balled, then frozen, just left to thaw, (which sure wasnít hard in trying to make a pizza).  I also never would have thought a crumb would have that great of flavor from the methods used. A woman that is a great baker, owns a regular bakery, and bakery market stand (makes bread, cookies, cakes, and other baked products), also tasted the one pizza attempt yesterday, and she really was impressed.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:58:23 AM by norma427 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #331 on: October 12, 2011, 10:24:32 AM »
Norma,

It's entirely up to you as to whether you should request some Dri-Mol dry molasses products from ADM. However, it is always interesting and useful to try out different products in order to learn what they can do and their limitations. The Dri-Mol products are supposed to be lighter in color and, hence, may have more sugar, but you won't know for sure until you actually try them.

Maybe you and Steve can combine your pizza making skills and Steve's beer-making prowess, get some real tattoos ala Guy Fieri-style, and open up your own pizza emporium featuring your clones of the MM pizzas :-D. Your overhead would be considerably less than at MM so your pizza prices would be much lower than what I have seen on MM's menus. Maybe I can even improve upon MM doughs through some further testing. If so, I will disclose the results only to you (and to Biz for being such a good sport and help on this project) so that someone else doesn't run with the idea after seeing it on the forum. Or maybe you can sell the recipe to MM itself, if only to keep it out of circulation ;D. You will note that the page views for this thread have jumped recently, so that would seem to suggest that there is interest on what we have been doing.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #332 on: October 12, 2011, 02:50:18 PM »
Norma,

It's entirely up to you as to whether you should request some Dri-Mol dry molasses products from ADM. However, it is always interesting and useful to try out different products in order to learn what they can do and their limitations. The Dri-Mol products are supposed to be lighter in color and, hence, may have more sugar, but you won't know for sure until you actually try them.

Maybe you and Steve can combine your pizza making skills and Steve's beer-making prowess, get some real tattoos ala Guy Fieri-style, and open up your own pizza emporium featuring your clones of the MM pizzas :-D. Your overhead would be considerably less than at MM so your pizza prices would be much lower than what I have seen on MM's menus. Maybe I can even improve upon MM doughs through some further testing. If so, I will disclose the results only to you (and to Biz for being such a good sport and help on this project) so that someone else doesn't run with the idea after seeing it on the forum. Or maybe you can sell the recipe to MM itself, if only to keep it out of circulation ;D. You will note that the page views for this thread have jumped recently, so that would seem to suggest that there is interest on what we have been doing.

Peter

Peter,

I will sent a request to ADM to see if I might be able to obtain one or more of the Dri-Mol products. 

Steve just starting brewing more beer last week.  He is a great home brewer.  ;D I never even tasted home brewed beer, until I met Steve. Tasting home brewed beer was something like learning to make pizza.  Both opened up a whole new world to me.  Steve also has brewed wine before, but doesnít do that regularly. Steve and his home brew friends brew all kinds of great beer.  I am getting too old to start a new business, but I think Steve has some kind of plans to start a new venture.  He is always coming up with great ideas, and is very handy with everything.  :) If I was younger, I think I would try to start some kind of regular pizza business.  At least I have tried enough formulas to see which ones work, or which ones donít.  Maybe if Steve needs any help in his new venture I will be able to help him like he has helped me.  Steve doesnít want any more of those fake tattoos though, because he said the first one was too hard to remove and he doesnít even like tattoos.   :-D

I could understand anyone that might want to open a business trying something like a MMís pizza, after reading this thread, wouldnít have any problems with starting a formula.  At least so far, you, Biz, and I have had some successful attempts.  Just learning from these MMís clone attempts, I havenít tasted any pizzas anywhere that can compare with the attempts.  Using the ingredients you posted, and having you as the lead formulation ďspecialistĒ has really helped.  ;D I have so many sample ingredients, that I might just try some of them to make an attempt on a Mystery pizza for my Mystery thread for a MMís attempt.  At least it couldnít hurt to try.  You never know what you can come up with if you donít try.   I donít know if MMís would be interested in our attempts because they are already successful.  I have ideas to offer this pizza at market at some point though.  Different customers stopped and asked what kind of pizzas we were making in our attempted MMís pizzas.  I think, but donít know, that customers might be interested in this different kind of pizza.  The customers all thought the pizzas were made from whole wheat flour, which would be a much healthier pizza.  Little did they know, that the pizzas were made with my regular KASL.   I hadnít noticed that this thread had more page views lately.  It is a wonder no one else is posting on this thread, unless they are guests.  I know Tampa (Dave) was trying to make a MMís pizza for awhile.  I wonder if he is going to try one of the formulas.  ::)

If you have any ideas of a different formula for me to try for next week, let me know.  I am always in for trying new formulas.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #333 on: October 12, 2011, 03:35:42 PM »
Norma,

I can see how an MM dough clone formulation could be of value to you in your business because it is so easy to make and freeze the dough balls until you are ready to use them. And they are so easy to work with in my opinion.

MM's dough formulation is a valuable one and MM takes great pains to protect that formulation. It is hard to ascribe a dollar value to that formulation but it has to be large. However, the formulation is only a piece of the total puzzle, albeit a necessary one. It is the artwork and music and beer and entertainment and all of the other things that take up most of the investment dollars. But, that said, the licensees have to be protected so that someone doesn't gain access to the dough formulation and use it in a way that is antithetical to MM's efforts to grow the chain (MM is in now in 15 states and the District of Columbia) and against the economic interests of its licensees (MM has essentially become a full-time licensing company). One member sent me an email recently telling me that he took a look at the MM facilities in Atlanta using Google Earth and said that it looked like the facility was as tight as Fort Knox. I had already viewed the facility from an aerial perspective (and posted the link in an earlier post) but I used Google Earth to take a look for myself and I think that he is right. It is not a place for dumpster diving.

A few more experiments and I hope to capture what MM is doing, or to move a step or two closer. However, I will be discreet and judicious in disclosing what I learn and exercise greater control over what I conclude and reveal, although you Steve and Biz will always be privy to what I learn. I am not saying that I have or will crack the MM dough recipe. I would rather improve it. There is already plenty of information in this thread to allow others to work on their own MM clones. After all the time and effort that has been devoted to research and trying to find all of the answers, I am not anxious to lay out dough formulations for those who come to the forum solely for dough recipes for their favorite pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 03:37:30 PM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #334 on: October 12, 2011, 04:21:43 PM »
Norma,

I can see how an MM dough clone formulation could be of value to you in your business because it is so easy to make and freeze the dough balls until you are ready to use them. And they are so easy to work with in my opinion.

MM's dough formulation is a valuable one and MM takes great pains to protect that formulation. It is hard to ascribe a dollar value to that formulation but it has to be large. However, the formulation is only a piece of the total puzzle, albeit a necessary one. It is the artwork and music and beer and entertainment and all of the other things that take up most of the investment dollars. But, that said, the licensees have to be protected so that someone doesn't gain access to the dough formulation and use it in a way that is antithetical to MM's efforts to grow the chain (MM is in now in 15 states and the District of Columbia) and against the economic interests of its licensees (MM has essentially become a full-time licensing company). One member sent me an email recently telling me that he took a look at the MM facilities in Atlanta using Google Earth and said that it looked like the facility was as tight as Fort Knox. I had already viewed the facility from an aerial perspective (and posted the link in an earlier post) but I used Google Earth to take a look for myself and I think that he is right. It is not a place for dumpster diving.

A few more experiments and I hope to capture what MM is doing, or to move a step or two closer. However, I will be discreet and judicious in disclosing what I learn and exercise greater control over what I conclude and reveal, although you Steve and Biz will always be privy to what I learn. I am not saying that I have or will crack the MM dough recipe. I would rather improve it. There is already plenty of information in this thread to allow others to work on their own MM clones. After all the time and effort that has been devoted to research and trying to find all of the answers, I am not anxious to lay out dough formulations for those who come to the forum solely for dough recipes for their favorite pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

You must have read my mind when you posted the MM dough clone formulation would be of value to me.  I already know that I could make the dough on a Friday, then freeze it, and have successful pizzas for Tuesday.  I think customers would really be interested in the clone MMís pizzas, but wouldnít know until I try.  I also agree that the whole formulations and doughs are easy to work with.  I never thought any dough would give such a great taste in the crust with such easy methods.

I know from searching that MM does take great pain in trying to protect their dough formulation.  I also know the artwork, music, and beers also contribute to MMís successful operations.  Their pizza businesses are one of a kind.  I can understand why the MMís facilities in Atlanta are as tight as Fort Knox. 

I also agree on trying to improve on MMís dough formulation.  I can understand that this forum isnít for coming here and finding their favorite recipes right away.  It is always about ďworking for your supperĒ.  ;D

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #335 on: October 12, 2011, 10:22:07 PM »
It was the result of this simple test that started me thinking about how much sweetness molasses can actually deliver to a finshed crust. That was the main reason why I started looking at honey and raw cane sugar to supplement the molasses and as the probable source of the sweetness in the MM finished crusts. To date, I have not seen anything to suggest that MM is using only molasses as the sweetener. As I noted in my last post to Norma, there would have to be a super sweet molasses out there somewhere to be able to do this.

I agree with what you're saying here.  Just because molasses is seemingly always touted as an ingredient doesn't mean it's the only sweetener being used.
Just based on sort of gut instinct, I am thinking they may be using honey or some kind of raw/organic/natural sugar/evaporated cane juice.  The other total wildcard idea would be the Sorghum Theory.  Since I still feel that a lot of people think molasses=sorghum and vice versa, it's not outside the realm of possibility that the original ingredient used was sorghum but it was corrupted at some point to "molasses" based on the Southern vernacular.  Perhaps a stretch, but I am leaning more and more towards at least attempting a dough with only sorghum as the sweetener.  Depending on that outcome, I think the next thing I may try is honey with the 5% molasses.  Then if those paths lead to dead ends, I may try to tinker with the yeast and fermentation periods, but I'm not sure if those alone can result in enhanced sweetness over what we've already seen.

So probably for this Sunday I will try a sorghum or molasses+honey recipe and keep you posted. 

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #336 on: October 12, 2011, 11:31:35 PM »
I was looking at ADMís website to see if there are other sugars that maybe MMís might use in their dough.  There are many different products for sweeteners that ADM sells for professional use. http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/food/sweeteners/Pages/default.aspx
One of the interesting sweeteners, among others, is Crystalline Fructose. http://www.adm.com/_layouts/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=12  The technical data sheet can be downloaded.  This product is considered a ďfruit sugarĒ because of its natural occurrence in many fruits, and is the sweetest of natural sugars. More can be read if you download the Technical data sheet.  This is also another pdf. on crystalline fructose http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/Documents/ADM-CornSweet-Crystalline-Fructose.pdf

Edit: I was thinking about Fructose ďfruit sugarď, after I posted about ADM product Crystalline Fructose. I found they do sell ďfruit sugarĒ fructose at different places, and Bobís Red Mill also sells fructose.  After looking at Bobís Red Mill Fructose http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fructose-32-Ounce/dp/B000KELHR6/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1318503792&sr=1-3
and then looking at the nutritional data at http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fructose-32-Ounce/dp/B000KELHR6/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1318503792&sr=1-3#nutrition-facts it says this product is best if used in applications other than cooking and baking, so I guess MMís wouldnít use this product in their dough.  Then in another PDF. Article http://www.fructose.org/pdf/ADAFructosefactsheetfinal.pdf
it says that crystalline fructose does boost sweetness and cake height (in baked goodsĒ).  I am not sure if I am understanding what the differences are in fructose.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 07:30:39 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #337 on: October 13, 2011, 08:30:10 AM »
If you have any ideas of a different formula for me to try for next week, let me know.  I am always in for trying new formulas.

Norma,

Since you had such good luck and results using the ADM 65 DMP and the raw cane sugar, you might want to continue to play around with that combination while Biz and I play around with the ingredients that home pizza makers might have available to them. If you want to try to get less crust color, you could lower the amount of ADM 65 DMP to around 3.5% and increase the amount of raw cane sugar to around 7% to see if that gives a jolt in sweetness. I think you should be OK with the hydration but I am sure that you can tweak the hydration if you find it necessary to do so. If you need any help with the formulation, let me know.

From what I can tell, the sweetest molasses product is going to come from the first boil and be the lightest in color. So, unless there is a super sweet molasses product out there that MM is using and we have not yet identified, and you plan to approach ADM for further samples like the Dri-Mol products, you will perhaps want to look for a first boil product if it exists at ADM.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #338 on: October 13, 2011, 08:53:51 AM »
Just because molasses is seemingly always touted as an ingredient doesn't mean it's the only sweetener being used.
Just based on sort of gut instinct, I am thinking they may be using honey or some kind of raw/organic/natural sugar/evaporated cane juice.  The other total wildcard idea would be the Sorghum Theory.  Since I still feel that a lot of people think molasses=sorghum and vice versa, it's not outside the realm of possibility that the original ingredient used was sorghum but it was corrupted at some point to "molasses" based on the Southern vernacular.  Perhaps a stretch, but I am leaning more and more towards at least attempting a dough with only sorghum as the sweetener.  Depending on that outcome, I think the next thing I may try is honey with the 5% molasses.  Then if those paths lead to dead ends, I may try to tinker with the yeast and fermentation periods, but I'm not sure if those alone can result in enhanced sweetness over what we've already seen.

So probably for this Sunday I will try a sorghum or molasses+honey recipe and keep you posted. 

Biz,

If you look at the ingredients lists for many of the high-end whole-grain and multi-grain breads sold in supermarkets, you will find all kinds of natural sweeteners used in those products. Molasses is one of the most common ones but you will see also see honey, cane juice, molasses, concentrated raisin juice and sorghum. Sometimes there are multiple sugars used in the same product. I don't think that I have ever seen molasses being used alone without any other sweetener. That would seem to buttress an argument that MM is not using only molasses either.

With respect to the sorghum, it is mostly sucrose, with a small amount of glucose and fructose, which are reducing sugars that yeast can metabolize (although the yeast prefers sucrose over the reducing sugars in sorghum). You are correct that sorghum is sometimes incorrectly called molasses. From what I can tell, there is "sorghum syrup", which is a pure standalone sorghum product, and "sorghum-molasses", which is a combination of pure sorghum syrup and cane molasses. I don't see any reason why you might not try sorghum syrup or sorghum-molasses, if only to rule out those products as being likely used by MM. Honey is mostly fructose, which is one of the sweetest natural sugars, and glucose, with the rest being maltose, sucrose and higher saccharides. Fructose is not a favorite of yeast so you might keep the sorghum/sorghum-molasses or molasses component on the high side to give the yeast its favorite sweeteners.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #339 on: October 13, 2011, 09:07:47 AM »
Norma,

Since you had such good luck and results using the ADM 65 DMP and the raw cane sugar, you might want to continue to play around with that combination while Biz and I play around with the ingredients that home pizza makers might have available to them. If you want to try to get less crust color, you could lower the amount of ADM 65 DMP to around 3.5% and increase the amount of raw cane sugar to around 7% to see if that gives a jolt in sweetness. I think you should be OK with the hydration but I am sure that you can tweak the hydration if you find it necessary to do so. If you need any help with the formulation, let me know.

From what I can tell, the sweetest molasses product is going to come from the first boil and be the lightest in color. So, unless there is a super sweet molasses product out there that MM is using and we have not yet identified, and you plan to approach ADM for further samples like the Dri-Mol products, you will perhaps want to look for a first boil product if it exists at ADM.

Peter


Peter,

I will continue to play around with the ADM 65 DMP product and the raw cane sugar.  I did really like the results of that pizza.  Thanks for telling me what to try to get less coloration and more sweetness in the crust.  I will do that experiment for this coming week.  I might also try the Brer Rabbit mild flavored molasses in combination with the raw sugar to see how that turns out, since the Brer Rabbit mild flavored molasses doesnít taste as bitter as the ADM 65 product.

I did request two samples of the Dri-Mol products last evening and received a return email that I have requested the Dri-Mol products.  I will wait and see if I am going to be able to receive those samples.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #340 on: October 13, 2011, 09:27:35 AM »
After looking at Bobís Red Mill Fructose http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fructose-32-Ounce/dp/B000KELHR6/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1318503792&sr=1-3
and then looking at the nutritional data at http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fructose-32-Ounce/dp/B000KELHR6/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1318503792&sr=1-3#nutrition-facts it says this product is best if used in applications other than cooking and baking, so I guess MMís wouldnít use this product in their dough.  Then in another PDF. Article http://www.fructose.org/pdf/ADAFructosefactsheetfinal.pdf
it says that crystalline fructose does boost sweetness and cake height (in baked goodsĒ).  I am not sure if I am understanding what the differences are in fructose.

Norma,

Fructose can and has been used in pizza dough before. Pizza Hut once used it as a dough ingredient for a pan pizza dough. See, for example, page 4 of the pdf document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. I believe that formulation was before PH went to frozen dough for its stores. The good news about fructose is that it is considerably sweeter than sucrose, by about 1.2-1.6 times. The not so good news is that it is not the yeast's favorite sugar and is metabolized more slowly than other reducing sugars and translates into a longer fermentation. Remember the little experiment that November referenced at http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/nat_Fak_IV/Organische_Chemie/Didaktik/Keusch/D-fermentation_sugar-e.htm? However, if you use other sugars along with the fructose, I would think that you should be OK to use the fructose in the dough. In a frozen dough context, or in a short fermentation context, it might even be a good idea if the yeast doesn't use the fructose too quickly since that might lead to more residual sugar at the time of baking to contribute to both sweetness and crust coloration.

Combining different types of sugars to achieve a desired degree of sweetness in a finished crust while operating within a desired window of fermentation can be a somewhat treacherous exercise--one that can only be resolved accurately by resorting to some pretty complex math or conducting a lot of experimentation. November alluded to this problem in the next to last paragraph of his post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34710/topicseen.html#msg34710.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #341 on: October 13, 2011, 10:36:52 AM »
Norma,

Fructose can and has been used in pizza dough before. Pizza Hut once used it as a dough ingredient for a pan pizza dough. See, for example, page 4 of the pdf document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. I believe that formulation was before PH went to frozen dough for its stores. The good news about fructose is that it is considerably sweeter than sucrose, by about 1.2-1.6 times. The not so good news is that it is not the yeast's favorite sugar and is metabolized more slowly than other reducing sugars and translates into a longer fermentation. Remember the little experiment that November referenced at http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/nat_Fak_IV/Organische_Chemie/Didaktik/Keusch/D-fermentation_sugar-e.htm? However, if you use other sugars along with the fructose, I would think that you should be OK to use the fructose in the dough. In a frozen dough context, or in a short fermentation context, it might even be a good idea if the yeast doesn't use the fructose too quickly since that might lead to more residual sugar at the time of baking to contribute to both sweetness and crust coloration.

Combining different types of sugars to achieve a desired degree of sweetness in a finished crust while operating within a desired window of fermentation can be a somewhat treacherous exercise--one that can only be resolved accurately by resorting to some pretty complex math or conducting a lot of experimentation. November alluded to this problem in the next to last paragraph of his post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34710/topicseen.html#msg34710.

Peter


Peter,

I didnít know fructose could be used in pizza dough.  Thanks for the pdf document on Pizza Huts pan pizza dough with fructose added.  I read that fructose is considerably sweeter than sucrose.  I also didnít remember the little experiment that November referenced.  Thanks for refreshing my memory on that too.  I sure donít know, but would think in a frozen dough context, or in a short fermentation context, that fructose might be a good idea to try in pizza dough. 

I know I am not good at math, and know that combining sugars would be a treacherous exercise.   I can understand from Novemberís posts what a treacherous exercise trying to combine molasses and fructose would be.  I will have to think over about trying an experiment something like that for a MMís dough.  I think though fructose would be better for glycemic levels, but I am not sure.

Maybe I am doing too much thinking on this, because MMís probably doesnít add any fructose to their dough.

Norma


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #342 on: October 13, 2011, 12:37:44 PM »
Turns out I know the wife of the guy that owns our local Mellow Mushroom store in Decatur, Ga.

I will probably see her in sometime in the next couple weeks.  Post a list of questions and I will see what I can find out.
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #343 on: October 13, 2011, 02:44:20 PM »
Today I used the MM clone dough ball with the 10% Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ (with Vitamin E enrichment) to make a pizza. But for the amount of wheat germ, the dough formulation was the same as the previous one I used with 4% molasses, 4% sugar and 3% Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ. The dough handled beautifully. It also seemed that I was able to form a rim that held up better than the previous skins I had made in the course of this project. I also concluded that it is perhaps a good idea to let the dough temper for about an hour and a half at room temperature before using. Previously, I used the dough after only a brief temper period. I did that in order to see how well the dough would handle shortly after it came out of the refrigerator.

The pizza itself was quite tasty but the flavor of the wheat germ was too pronounced, even though it perhaps resulted in a healthier pizza because of all of the wheat germ. There was some sweetness in the crust but not to the degree I experienced when I had the MM pizza in Florida. This I expected based on the results that were previously documented in this thread.

I tend to think that about 3% toasted wheat germ is about right. It might be a bit lower or a bit higher depending on one's personal taste preferences and objectives. Remember, also, that the normal level of wheat germ in flour is around 2-2.5%. That doesn't mean the MM doesn't use more so one should use this range as a benchmark for the time being.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #344 on: October 13, 2011, 03:01:12 PM »
Peter,

Is was interesting to hear that your recent dough formulation, with the extra (10%) Kretschmerís toasted wheat germ, did let you form a rim that held up better than your previous skins. 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #345 on: October 13, 2011, 06:41:32 PM »
Turns out I know the wife of the guy that owns our local Mellow Mushroom store in Decatur, Ga.

I will probably see her in sometime in the next couple weeks.  Post a list of questions and I will see what I can find out.

Sweet! 

I'm sure Peter has some great questions you could ask, but off the top of my head at this point, I'd be most interested to know all the sweeteners they use in the crust.  Molasses seems a given, but wondering what in addition is being used (if anything).

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #346 on: October 13, 2011, 07:12:42 PM »
I had put in a request for samples of the ADM Dri-Mol 60 Dry molasses and the Dri-Mol 604 Dry Molasses last evening.  Today, I received an email from the Regional Sales Manager saying he put in a sample request for me for both products. (a couple of pounds each)  He attached the spec sheets for these items.

These are the spec sheets for the Dri-Mol 60 Dry Molasses and the Dri-Mol 604 Dry Molasses.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #347 on: October 13, 2011, 07:13:13 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #348 on: October 13, 2011, 09:06:47 PM »
I have been using the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses in my experiments. That is the only Brer Rabbit molasses that is stocked by my local supermarket. I wondered which press (or boil) was used to make that product. Today I found the answer at the website of the company that makes the Brer Rabbit molasses products, at http://www.bgfoods.com/int_faq.asp. As noted there, the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses is a second press (or boil). That means it will have less sweetness but more flavor than a first press molasses.

Apparently the same company makes the Grandma's brand of molasses. Note, in particular, that the Grandma Original molasses is a first press molasses. As such, it has the most sweetness of all the molasses products but is not as flavorful as the other molasses products. It seems to me that, as between the Brer Rabbit and Grandma's brands of molasses the that are sold at the retail level, the best one for our purposes may be the Grandma's Original molasses. At the commercial level, there may well be even better choices, especially light colored versions.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #349 on: October 13, 2011, 09:33:14 PM »
To add to my last post, there is another first press (first boil) molasses that is sold by Plantation and called Barbados, at http://www.alliedoldenglish.com/plantation.php?flavor=barbados.

Peter