Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[Pete-zza]

After looking at Bob’s Red Mill Fructose http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fructose-32-Ounce/dp/B000KELHR6/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1318503792&sr=1-3
and then looking at the nutritional data at http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fructose-32-Ounce/dp/B000KELHR6/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1318503792&sr=1-3#nutrition-facts it says this product is best if used in applications other than cooking and baking, so I guess MM’s wouldn’t use this product in their dough.  Then in another PDF. Article http://www.fructose.org/pdf/ADAFructosefactsheetfinal.pdf
it says that crystalline fructose does boost sweetness and cake height (in baked goods”).  I am not sure if I am understanding what the differences are in fructose.

Norma,

Fructose can and has been used in pizza dough before. Pizza Hut once used it as a dough ingredient for a pan pizza dough. See, for example, page 4 of the pdf document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. I believe that formulation was before PH went to frozen dough for its stores. The good news about fructose is that it is considerably sweeter than sucrose, by about 1.2-1.6 times. The not so good news is that it is not the yeast's favorite sugar and is metabolized more slowly than other reducing sugars and translates into a longer fermentation. Remember the little experiment that November referenced at http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/nat_Fak_IV/Organische_Chemie/Didaktik/Keusch/D-fermentation_sugar-e.htm? However, if you use other sugars along with the fructose, I would think that you should be OK to use the fructose in the dough. In a frozen dough context, or in a short fermentation context, it might even be a good idea if the yeast doesn't use the fructose too quickly since that might lead to more residual sugar at the time of baking to contribute to both sweetness and crust coloration.

Combining different types of sugars to achieve a desired degree of sweetness in a finished crust while operating within a desired window of fermentation can be a somewhat treacherous exercise--one that can only be resolved accurately by resorting to some pretty complex math or conducting a lot of experimentation. November alluded to this problem in the next to last paragraph of his post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34710/topicseen.html#msg34710.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Fructose can and has been used in pizza dough before. Pizza Hut once used it as a dough ingredient for a pan pizza dough. See, for example, page 4 of the pdf document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. I believe that formulation was before PH went to frozen dough for its stores. The good news about fructose is that it is considerably sweeter than sucrose, by about 1.2-1.6 times. The not so good news is that it is not the yeast's favorite sugar and is metabolized more slowly than other reducing sugars and translates into a longer fermentation. Remember the little experiment that November referenced at http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/nat_Fak_IV/Organische_Chemie/Didaktik/Keusch/D-fermentation_sugar-e.htm? However, if you use other sugars along with the fructose, I would think that you should be OK to use the fructose in the dough. In a frozen dough context, or in a short fermentation context, it might even be a good idea if the yeast doesn't use the fructose too quickly since that might lead to more residual sugar at the time of baking to contribute to both sweetness and crust coloration.

Combining different types of sugars to achieve a desired degree of sweetness in a finished crust while operating within a desired window of fermentation can be a somewhat treacherous exercise--one that can only be resolved accurately by resorting to some pretty complex math or conducting a lot of experimentation. November alluded to this problem in the next to last paragraph of his post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34710/topicseen.html#msg34710.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t know fructose could be used in pizza dough.  Thanks for the pdf document on Pizza Huts pan pizza dough with fructose added.  I read that fructose is considerably sweeter than sucrose.  I also didn’t remember the little experiment that November referenced.  Thanks for refreshing my memory on that too.  I sure don’t know, but would think in a frozen dough context, or in a short fermentation context, that fructose might be a good idea to try in pizza dough. 

I know I am not good at math, and know that combining sugars would be a treacherous exercise.   I can understand from November’s posts what a treacherous exercise trying to combine molasses and fructose would be.  I will have to think over about trying an experiment something like that for a MM’s dough.  I think though fructose would be better for glycemic levels, but I am not sure.

Maybe I am doing too much thinking on this, because MM’s probably doesn’t add any fructose to their dough.

Norma

[GlennC.]

Turns out I know the wife of the guy that owns our local Mellow Mushroom store in Decatur, Ga.

I will probably see her in sometime in the next couple weeks.  Post a list of questions and I will see what I can find out.

[Pete-zza]

Today I used the MM clone dough ball with the 10% Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ (with Vitamin E enrichment) to make a pizza. But for the amount of wheat germ, the dough formulation was the same as the previous one I used with 4% molasses, 4% sugar and 3% Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ. The dough handled beautifully. It also seemed that I was able to form a rim that held up better than the previous skins I had made in the course of this project. I also concluded that it is perhaps a good idea to let the dough temper for about an hour and a half at room temperature before using. Previously, I used the dough after only a brief temper period. I did that in order to see how well the dough would handle shortly after it came out of the refrigerator.

The pizza itself was quite tasty but the flavor of the wheat germ was too pronounced, even though it perhaps resulted in a healthier pizza because of all of the wheat germ. There was some sweetness in the crust but not to the degree I experienced when I had the MM pizza in Florida. This I expected based on the results that were previously documented in this thread.

I tend to think that about 3% toasted wheat germ is about right. It might be a bit lower or a bit higher depending on one's personal taste preferences and objectives. Remember, also, that the normal level of wheat germ in flour is around 2-2.5%. That doesn't mean the MM doesn't use more so one should use this range as a benchmark for the time being.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Is was interesting to hear that your recent dough formulation, with the extra (10%) Kretschmer’s toasted wheat germ, did let you form a rim that held up better than your previous skins. 

Norma

[Biz Markie]

Turns out I know the wife of the guy that owns our local Mellow Mushroom store in Decatur, Ga.

I will probably see her in sometime in the next couple weeks.  Post a list of questions and I will see what I can find out.

Sweet! 

I'm sure Peter has some great questions you could ask, but off the top of my head at this point, I'd be most interested to know all the sweeteners they use in the crust.  Molasses seems a given, but wondering what in addition is being used (if anything).

[norma427]

I had put in a request for samples of the ADM Dri-Mol 60 Dry molasses and the Dri-Mol 604 Dry Molasses last evening.  Today, I received an email from the Regional Sales Manager saying he put in a sample request for me for both products. (a couple of pounds each)  He attached the spec sheets for these items.

These are the spec sheets for the Dri-Mol 60 Dry Molasses and the Dri-Mol 604 Dry Molasses.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I have been using the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses in my experiments. That is the only Brer Rabbit molasses that is stocked by my local supermarket. I wondered which press (or boil) was used to make that product. Today I found the answer at the website of the company that makes the Brer Rabbit molasses products, at http://www.bgfoods.com/int_faq.asp. As noted there, the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses is a second press (or boil). That means it will have less sweetness but more flavor than a first press molasses.

Apparently the same company makes the Grandma's brand of molasses. Note, in particular, that the Grandma Original molasses is a first press molasses. As such, it has the most sweetness of all the molasses products but is not as flavorful as the other molasses products. It seems to me that, as between the Brer Rabbit and Grandma's brands of molasses the that are sold at the retail level, the best one for our purposes may be the Grandma's Original molasses. At the commercial level, there may well be even better choices, especially light colored versions.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

To add to my last post, there is another first press (first boil) molasses that is sold by Plantation and called Barbados, at http://www.alliedoldenglish.com/plantation.php?flavor=barbados.

Peter

[norma427]

I will continue to use my Brer Rabbit mild flavored molasses until it is all gone, before I switch to Grandma’s Original molasses.   

I also saw one more business that sells dry sweeteners, in the form of dry molasses.
http://www.sunopta.com/uploadedFiles/ingredients/SIG%20-%20SunOpta%20Dry%20Sweeteners.pdf
There are probably many more.

Norma

[Biz Markie]

I've been using Brer Rabbit "Mild" of which the company's website says:

"Brer Rabbit Mild – is the first boiling – It is light colored, mild and sweet."

I personally wouldn't call it "light-colored" at all. .it's quite dark in the bottle. It's all relative, I suppose.

Sorghum Syrup is even lighter and often more orange-colored.  It's usually sweeter too, from my experience.  In fact I mostly gave up eating Sorghum (with biscuits for example) because it was so sweet.  As mentioned, I'd like to try it in a dough just for kicks.  I'm not sure if I'll go get some real homemade stuff from the local Amish or something a little more commercialized.

[Pete-zza]

Norma and Biz,

When I was researching the different categories of molasses, I discovered that there is an even sweeter molasses called Fancy. It is about 40% sweeter than the first boil molasses. See, for example, http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/Molassas.htm. I understand that the Fancy molasses is also sometimes called "Gold Star" but I believe that that may be a trademark of the Crosby molasses company which, as previously noted, is a Canadian company whose products may not available in the U.S. (at one time it looks like Amazon carried the Crosby Gold Star molasses but that no longer seems to be the case). I would think that someone like Malt Products Corporation (http://www.maltproducts.com/products.molasses.html) or Domino Sugar (http://www.dominospecialtyingredients.com/?pageId=1090&rowId=11207) might have a light colored Fancy wet molasses. However, one would have to be a professional to obtain samples from those companies.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma and Biz,

When I was researching the different categories of molasses, I discovered that there is an even sweeter molasses called Fancy. It is about 40% sweeter than the first boil molasses. See, for example, http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/Molassas.htm. I understand that the Fancy molasses is also sometimes called "Gold Star" but I believe that that may be a trademark of the Crosby molasses company which, as previously noted, is a Canadian company whose products may not available in the U.S. (at one time it looks like Amazon carried the Crosby Gold Star molasses but that no longer seems to be the case). I would think that someone like Malt Products Corporation (http://www.maltproducts.com/products.molasses.html) or Domino Sugar (http://www.dominospecialtyingredients.com/?pageId=1090&rowId=11207) might have a light colored Fancy wet molasses. However, one would have to be a professional to obtain samples from those companies.

Peter

Peter,

I never heard of Fancy molasses before.  I see Malt Products Corporation does carry dry (spray dried) molasses products.  Do you think I should try to request a sample of the #175 molasses product.  I had recently received a sample of malt from the same company.  The Domino’s molasses liquids all look so different.  If you had to pick one or more of them for me to request samples of which would you pick?  Would you suggest the Fancy wet molasses?

I never knew there were so many kinds of molasses products before.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I would like to go back to the liquid molasses for a while, so at Malt Products I would ask for a sample of the liquid molasses, Code #732, and at Domino Sugar I would ask for a sample of either the Homemaid Molasses or a light BSM Molasses. To avoid having to go back for more samples, I think I would call Malt Products and Domino Sugar first and ask them which of their products is of the Fancy variety, or closest to the Fancy variety.

Peter
     

[norma427]

Norma,

I would like to go back to the liquid molasses for a while, so at Malt Products I would ask for a sample of the liquid molasses, Code #732, and at Domino Sugar I would ask for a sample of either the Homemaid Molasses or a light BSM Molasses. To avoid having to go back for more samples, I think I would call Malt Products and Domino Sugar first and ask them which of their products is of the Fancy variety, or closest to the Fancy variety.

Peter
     

Peter,

Thanks for your advise.  I will call Malt Products and Domino Sugar next week and ask them which of their products is the Fancy variety, or closest to the Fancy variety.

Norma

[norma427]

If anyone is interested, I used all dry sample ingredients, with salt, and flour to make an attempt at a MM’s clone tonight.  I posted the pictures and what I did at Reply 344 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg156818.html#msg156818

Norma

[Jet_deck]

Norma,

I would like to go back to the liquid molasses for a while.     

Miss Jet_junior is making whole wheat bread tonight.  I noticed that the Grandma's Molasses that they were using is unsulphured.  I wonder if the sulphured (I am spelling this as it is on the label) version is available also.  Does sulpher make the yeast not eat all of the sugar as to retain more sweetness?

Just my $.02 that I owe Peter for buying $.25 worth a while back.

[Pete-zza]

I noticed that the Grandma's Molasses that they were using is unsulphured.  I wonder if the sulphured (I am spelling this as it is on the label) version is available also.  Does sulpher make the yeast not eat all of the sugar as to retain more sweetness?

Gene,

That is an interesting question. Since all of the molasses products that we have been discussing on this thread are unsulphured, I hadn't given any thought about sulphured molasses products. However, from what I can tell from the literature, the main reasons for using sulphur (sulphur dioxide) are for preservative purposes, to lighten the color of the molasses (or sugar) and to aid in processing unripe (immature) sugar cane. Typical of the articles is the one at http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=dailytip&dbid=88. Also, according to the article at http://www.cooksinfo.com/edible.nsf/pages/molasses, one should use unsulphured molasses in recipes calling for yeast because the sulphured variety will kill the yeast. This possible effect on yeast seems to be supported by the article at http://www.joepastry.com/2007/what_is_sulphured_molasses_1/.  But even if that effect is not true, a sulphured molasses seems to be more bitter and with a chemical aftertaste, making it less desirable for consumption purposes. It may well be that the sulphured molasses products are better suited for agricultural purposes or possibly for animal feeds.

When I looked for a source of sulphured molasses for home/human consumption, I saw that the Grandma's molasses with the green label is identified at Amazon as "sulphered", at http://www.amazon.com/Grandmas-Sulphured-Green-Baking-Molasses/dp/tech-data/B005Q0BNQY. Likewise at the foodservicedirect.coom website at http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/8125/Grandma-Sulphured-Green-Label-Baking-Molasses.htm. However, that characterization is incorrect. The Grandma's molasses with the green label (called Robust) is unsulphured (http://www.bgfoods.com/grandmas/grandmas_products.asp). I was not able to locate a sulphured molasses product intended for home use.

From its founding, a goal of Mellow Mushroom has been to "serve the finest product possible in terms of health and taste" (http://mellowmushroom.com/public/old_site1/aboutus.html). So, it is unlikely that MM would be using a sulphured molasses product.

Peter

[Biz Markie]

Hola Amigos,

Well, today is dough-making day so I had to come to a decision about what to do.  

As mentioned earlier, I was toying with either adding honey along with molasses to kick up the sweetness level, or trying 100% Sorghum instead of molasses with no additional sweeteners.

Due to my aforementioned love of Sorghum, I decided to go that route today. I biked down to the local Piggly Wiggly and grabbed some 100% Pure Sorghum, pictured below.

I used the same formula as I did last week, which was a very successful dough save for the slight paucity of sweetness.  The only other change was that I used un-ground wheat germ.  I just used it straight out of the bag.

The Sorghum . ....well, I just love it.  It's sweeter than the Brer Rabbit mild.  The remark I made to my wife is that it tastes like a blend of honey and molasses.  Coincidence??  We shall see!  But I might liken it to the taste of Candy Corn with just a hint of bitterness.

Also, as you can see in the second picture below, the Sorghum is vastly lighter in color than the Brer Rabbit Mild.  So, as postulated earlier, one should be able to use a lot more sorghum in an MM clone dough and end up with the same crumb color as a lower-percentage molasses-only dough.

The final picture is of the finished dough ball.  It's quite a bit lighter, as was expected.  It's still not as light as a sugar-only or honey-only dough would be, however.  

I'm very excited about this dough. . i'll keep you posted tomorrow.  Fortunately I saved the Farragut crust remnant for color comparison purposes - it's quite old at this point. . I hope it hasn't molded.