Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 218622 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23468
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #475 on: October 23, 2011, 03:08:23 PM »
Norma,

I think it makes sense to try using a combination of Grandma's Original molasses and brown sugar. That thought crossed my mind when I was at the supermarket recently, as I reported, and saw the light and brown sugars and wondered whether they were refined sugars. It was the "refined white sugar(s)" versus "refined sugar(s)" issue that led me to call MM.

Where we are missing useful information is in relation to the protocol for the frozen dough balls. I saw a video yesterday where the MM pizza maker mentioned placing the frozen dough balls into the cooler to let them defrost. However, he didn't say whether it was one day, two days, or maybe even three days--or maybe something different. From a fermentation standpoint, it makes a big difference whether you are using one, two or three days of defrost/fermentation. For example, if the fermentation time in the cooler is long, say, three days, the protease enzymes can attack the gluten structure and cause release of the water from its chemical bond. That could make the dough more extensible even though it might look like it is quite dense, and the dough might open up more easily even if it is cold. I'm guessing here. Also, knowing the defrost/fermentation protocol could also tell us more about the amount of yeast, and maybe other ingredients, one might start out with to fit the fermentation period. As we speculated before, maybe the defrost/fermentation period determines how sweet the finished crust is. Before I forget, I am going to pose some questions to GlennC. for when he visits the Decatur, GA MM store soon.

In your case, you might try using a fair amount of Grandma Original molasses with either light or brown sugar, with the goal being to end up with a final dough color that is close to the color of an MM dough. There is no easy mathematical way of determining how much of the two ingredients to use to achieve that objective. So, some experimentation will be required. Maybe something like 7% Grandma's Original molasses and about 4% brown sugar will work. You can also lower the nominal hydration by a percent if you think that is called for based on your recent observations at the DD MM location. You might skip the wheat germ this time also. I am thinking of making an MM clone dough ball and just watch it go over a cycle of two or three days after moving it from the freezer to my refrigerator compartment to see how it changes over the entire period.

Peter


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23468
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #476 on: October 23, 2011, 03:21:42 PM »
Turns out I know the wife of the guy that owns our local Mellow Mushroom store in Decatur, Ga.

I will probably see her in sometime in the next couple weeks.  Post a list of questions and I will see what I can find out.

Glenn,

I was waiting and hoping to get more information on the MM dough that did not materialize, so if your offer is still in effect I do have a few questions.

1. Are the dough balls fresh dough balls or are they frozen?

2. If the dough balls are fresh, what is the fermentation method (in the cooler or at room temperature) and what is the duration of the fermentation? If the dough balls are cold fermented, how much temper (warm-up) time is needed, if any, before opening up the dough balls to form skins?

3. If the dough balls are frozen, what is the dough management of the dough balls, including the duration of the dough balls in the cooler (to defrost and undergo fermentation) before using? Also, what is the temper (warm-up) period, if any, before the dough balls are opened up to form skins?

4. Also with respect to defrosted dough balls, are they ever refrozen and defrosted again before using?

If the dough balls are fresh, it would be nice to know what the dough ingredients are but most workers in MM franchisee stores are usually not given that information.

Thank you.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #477 on: October 23, 2011, 06:32:57 PM »
Norma,

I think it makes sense to try using a combination of Grandma's Original molasses and brown sugar. That thought crossed my mind when I was at the supermarket recently, as I reported, and saw the light and brown sugars and wondered whether they were refined sugars. It was the "refined white sugar(s)" versus "refined sugar(s)" issue that led me to call MM.

Where we are missing useful information is in relation to the protocol for the frozen dough balls. I saw a video yesterday where the MM pizza maker mentioned placing the frozen dough balls into the cooler to let them defrost. However, he didn't say whether it was one day, two days, or maybe even three days--or maybe something different. From a fermentation standpoint, it makes a big difference whether you are using one, two or three days of defrost/fermentation. For example, if the fermentation time in the cooler is long, say, three days, the protease enzymes can attack the gluten structure and cause release of the water from its chemical bond. That could make the dough more extensible even though it might look like it is quite dense, and the dough might open up more easily even if it is cold. I'm guessing here. Also, knowing the defrost/fermentation protocol could also tell us more about the amount of yeast, and maybe other ingredients, one might start out with to fit the fermentation period. As we speculated before, maybe the defrost/fermentation period determines how sweet the finished crust is. Before I forget, I am going to pose some questions to GlennC. for when he visits the Decatur, GA MM store soon.

In your case, you might try using a fair amount of Grandma Original molasses with either light or brown sugar, with the goal being to end up with a final dough color that is close to the color of an MM dough. There is no easy mathematical way of determining how much of the two ingredients to use to achieve that objective. So, some experimentation will be required. Maybe something like 7% Grandma's Original molasses and about 4% brown sugar will work. You can also lower the nominal hydration by a percent if you think that is called for based on your recent observations at the DD MM location. You might skip the wheat germ this time also. I am thinking of making an MM clone dough ball and just watch it go over a cycle of two or three days after moving it from the freezer to my refrigerator compartment to see how it changes over the entire period.

Peter

Peter,

While I was at MMís I would have liked to ask a lot more questions, but thought that the one guy standing beside me most of the time, (that went to talk to the kitchen manager, when I was eating) might become suspicious of all my questions.  They did say I could take pictures, but thought if I asked too many questions about what they might be doing with either defrosting the dough balls, or something else, they might wonder why would I be asking those questions. Why in the world would any common person want to know those answers.  :-D I was more or less a person that just wanted to try their pizzas since they recently came to an area closer to me.  If you look at the picture I posted at Reply 435 (the bottom one) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157619.html#msg157619
I wondered what 10-17 meant and also the letters in the item and what the name meant.  I did ask if dough balls were in that plastic container, and the one pie man said yes.  I thought they might be sitting there to warm up.  When the one pie maker opened the lid of the box, and it only had already cut pretzels from dough balls.  Since the MMís location only opened on the 17th of October, I now how no idea what that meant.  Maybe Glenn can get some helpful information for us.

I know we donít have any information about how long the dough balls are left to defrost and do know that can make a difference in the final pizza. I just wonder though if a MMís location is really busy, how they determine how many dough balls to defrost and maybe if the dough balls are made to be defrosted and then left to ferment at cold temperature for a couple of days.  At least that could explain how Biz, John, you, and I all might have experienced different sugar levels in the crust or even a different texture in the crust, even if all our taste buds arenít the same.  I wanted to ask you a question about when you ate your pie at the MMís location you visited.  Was your crumb cake like and dense as John said his was, or was your crumb like the pictures I posted?

I was just at the supermarket and looked at all the sugars and molasses again.  I now saw what is called brownulated sugar, from Dominoís. http://www.dominosugar.com/sugar/brownulated-sugar
That is also a new sugar to me, that I never noticed before.  It also has a molasses flavor.  I didnít buy any for a replacement for light brown sugar, but found it interesting.

My color of my dough ball last week was about the color of the MMís dough, but maybe a little lighter.  Last week I tried 8% Grandmaís Original molasses and 3% fructose.  Since you have now helped me with more numbers to try, I might try 2% light brown sugar and 7% molasses and dropped the hydration by about 1%.  I have no idea how that will work, but would think the light brown sugar would add some color.

Thanks for your help!

Norma
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 06:37:48 PM by norma427 »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23468
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #478 on: October 23, 2011, 07:11:37 PM »
Norma,

Today I made a clone MM dough ball with a hydration of 54%, soybean oil at 3%, light brown sugar at 4% and Grandma's Original molasses at 7%. Light brown sugar has around 3.6% molasses, so the 7% molasses inches up a little bit. It is hard to know from photos and videos when you have matched the dough color of an MM dough. You would have to place one of your clone dough balls right next to a real MM dough ball. However, I believe that around 7% Grandma's Original molasses comes quite close. I was looking for a more golden-tan color than a pure tan color and I believe that I achieved it. Now I'd like to see what effect the non-molasses part of the light brown sugar has on final crust sweetness. If it is too sweet, I can raise the amount of Grandma's Original molasses and lower the light brown sugar, or visa versa if the crust is not sweet enough. But sweetness alone is not enough. I want the complexity of sweetness that molasses brings.

It is often tricky to extract information out of people without sounding knowledgeable and tipping your hand. You almost have to conduct yourself like Lieutenant Columbo, the TV detective that Peter Falk made famous. You want them to think that you are somewhat of a harmless, bumbling klutz. But behind the klutz facade is a scheme that gets the information.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #479 on: October 23, 2011, 09:03:46 PM »
Norma,

Today I made a clone MM dough ball with a hydration of 54%, soybean oil at 3%, light brown sugar at 4% and Grandma's Original molasses at 7%. Light brown sugar has around 3.6% molasses, so the 7% molasses inches up a little bit. It is hard to know from photos and videos when you have matched the dough color of an MM dough. You would have to place one of your clone dough balls right next to a real MM dough ball. However, I believe that around 7% Grandma's Original molasses comes quite close. I was looking for a more golden-tan color than a pure tan color and I believe that I achieved it. Now I'd like to see what effect the non-molasses part of the light brown sugar has on final crust sweetness. If it is too sweet, I can raise the amount of Grandma's Original molasses and lower the light brown sugar, or visa versa if the crust is not sweet enough. But sweetness alone is not enough. I want the complexity of sweetness that molasses brings.

It is often tricky to extract information out of people without sounding knowledgeable and tipping your hand. You almost have to conduct yourself like Lieutenant Columbo, the TV detective that Peter Falk made famous. You want them to think that you are somewhat of a harmless, bumbling klutz. But behind the klutz facade is a scheme that gets the information.

Peter

Peter,

Good to hear about your next experimental dough. Good luck!

My next experimental dough is made, (with Grandmaís Original Molasses and brown sugar), and it looks a little to light to me.  I know it is tenacity and sleuthing that helps these clone threads.  I think I will call myself Inspector G. Lestrade.  Maybe you want to be Sherlock Holmes. I wonder what the other members might want to be called that are helping in cloning MMís pizza.  I just hope this thread doesnít take as long as the Mackís thread.  :-D  I sure don't know which thread took the longest in trying to clone someones dough, but this one does seem tricky.

Norma

Offline mailliw

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #480 on: October 24, 2011, 12:39:04 AM »
This is just an off the wall idea.  What if the dough was actually two separate dougs.  For example make a dough with all purpose flour and another with high gluten flour.  make the first tight dough ball made with all purpose or bread flour then suround, wrap the dough ball in high gluten flour mix.
Wonder if you would have the bread "cake" texture inside with the crisp high gluten flour shell?
Just thinking out loud- or " ouside the box".

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23468
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #481 on: October 24, 2011, 09:01:59 AM »
I wanted to ask you a question about when you ate your pie at the MMís location you visited.  Was your crumb cake like and dense as John said his was, or was your crumb like the pictures I posted?

Norma,

I forgot to answer your question regarding the texture of the crumb of the MM pizza I had in Florida. No, it was not cake-like. It was like you showed in your photos. In retrospect, I can see how the crumb had an alveole web-like appearance as you might see in a cake, and there was sweetness like a cake might have, but the words cake or cake-like did not cross my mind. Also, the rim was fairly dense but got lighter as one moved from the rim to the center of the pizza.

With regard to volumes, pizza operators like MM have sophisticated POS systems that track just about everything imaginable, including sales and sales by period. Since the DC MM operation is so new, it may take a while to populate the POS database but I would imagine that the folks who handle franchising for MM can give the new MM managers a pretty good idea as to what to expect.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #482 on: October 24, 2011, 09:16:50 AM »
Norma,

I forgot to answer your question regarding the texture of the crumb of the MM pizza I had in Florida. No, it was not cake-like. It was like you showed in your photos. In retrospect, I can see how the crumb had an alveole web-like appearance as you might see in a cake, and there was sweetness like a cake might have, but the words cake or cake-like did not cross my mind. Also, the rim was fairly dense but got lighter as one moved from the rim to the center of the pizza.

With regard to volumes, pizza operators like MM have sophisticated POS systems that track just about everything imaginable, including sales and sales by period. Since the DC MM operation is so new, it may take a while to populate the POS database but I would imagine that the folks who handle franchising for MM can give the new MM managers a pretty good idea as to what to expect.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for answering my question about the texture of the MMís pizza you ate. 

I know pizza operators like MMís do have sophisticated POS systems.  I would believe that the new owners or managers would have extensive training before opening a new MMís business and also could know about what to expect in sales.

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23468
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #483 on: October 24, 2011, 09:50:07 AM »
This is just an off the wall idea.  What if the dough was actually two separate dougs.  For example make a dough with all purpose flour and another with high gluten flour.  make the first tight dough ball made with all purpose or bread flour then suround, wrap the dough ball in high gluten flour mix.
Wonder if you would have the bread "cake" texture inside with the crisp high gluten flour shell?
Just thinking out loud- or " ouside the box".

mailliw,

Thank you for the idea. However, as you can see from the photos that Norma posted in Replies 277-279 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg155911.html#msg155911, MM uses a commissary (I believe that it was opened in 2006) to make its dough balls. I would imagine that it would be impractical and difficult to automate the process you described. Also, before the commissary was opened, dough balls had to be formed by hand in individual stores or else frozen dough balls had to be procured from third parties. In either case, using the method you described would have been problematic.

It usually turns out that the answers are quite simple and straightforward and it often happens that you look for answers and solutions in the wrong places and even go overboard trying to piece everything together. What makes a project like this so difficult is that there is not enough information. All we have is what he have been able to find on the Internet or from people at MM. In some cases, the information is wrong, even from MM, and questionable in other cases. Also, we don't have any Nutrition Facts to analyze and even Nutrition Facts can have problems because Nutrition Facts are prepared by software (in-house or using third parties) and there are rounding factors and other quirks that make analyzing the Nutrition Facts difficult. And we don't know any brands or suppliers of the ingredients to MM or the amounts used. Finally, there is the problem of matching the dough formulation to a home oven environment using standard home ovens. I have read of many cases where people have made pizzas in home ovens with dough procured from pizza operators and got completely different results. And the reverse has also been true.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #484 on: October 24, 2011, 10:49:35 AM »
If anyone is interested, I did join the roadfood forum and did post a question under pizza, about MMís. http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/Has-anyone-worked-at-Mellow-Mushroom-years-ago-to-know-what-is-in-their-pizza-dough-m672621.aspx I have no idea if I will be able to get any information, but thought nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Norma

Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3771
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #485 on: October 24, 2011, 03:06:06 PM »
The crumb was tight like cake but that was sizing reference only not texture was firm to the mouth
They had dough all over the place partly opened skins by a few makers and some others stacked by other makers it would only take then a few pulls stretches to  get to the 16" large I did not see any dough coming put of the fridge ? But did see a few pies with large Bubbles on the rim  here and there. I also noticed the patch guy ! Yes if someone ripped thru a dough when opening it was send down to this guy to make the repair some holes were significant but he patched em up with a dough patch and into the oven they went then on to the unsuspecting customer who had not a clew, keeping the waste down they can keep quality up. I checked mine for defects none found :)
Can't wait to see the next experiment
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #486 on: October 24, 2011, 03:10:41 PM »
Hey guys,

Man this thread has really continued to expand, which is great, but I've had a hard time keeping up!  Things have been really busy around here.

I'm not sure I have a whole lot to contribute at the moment but I did want to report back on my most recent MM clone attempt.

If you recall, my most recent dough was the same formula I had been using (5% Brer Rabbit Mild molasses, 2% raw wheat germ, 3% oil, 54% water) but with reduced IDY (0.16%) for a longer cold ferment.  This dough was in the fridge for 4 days.

The dough performed well.  It was probably slightly more fermented (prior to tempering) than the 24-hour doughs I've been making.  I had no choice but to temper it at around 70o for about 2.5 hours.  I did toss it this time and it worked really well.  Usually when I am tossing dough I kinda "wimp out" once the skin reaches a certain diameter for fear of tearing it or dropping it.  But this time I pushed the envelope a bit on that and got it bigger in the air than I normally do.  That was fun for sure.

Cooked it for 6 mins on my stone with about 40 seconds of broiler action at the end.  I got great oven spring on the rim, and overall the bake was perfect as far as I could tell.

Basically the whole point of this experiment was the longer cold ferment and to see if this alone would impact the sweetness of the crust.  This was more just something I wanted to try on my own, for kicks.

Well, it didn't really change anything.  It seemed to me to taste just like my previous doughs of this formula.  It was a great pizza, but not quite what I was shooting for.

So at this point I think I'm at the point of trying an additional sweetener in the dough such as brown sugar or honey.  

I'm open to suggestions on which sweetener and at what formula %.  My one concern with brown sugar (assuming the same molasses percent) is that it would make the dough even darker, which would be beyond an MM color.


« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:12:16 PM by Biz Markie »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #487 on: October 24, 2011, 05:39:31 PM »
This picture is my frozen dough ball at market today.  The dough ball had 7% Grandmaís Original Molasses and 2% light brown sugar in the formula.

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23468
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #488 on: October 24, 2011, 05:52:54 PM »
I'm open to suggestions on which sweetener and at what formula %.  My one concern with brown sugar (assuming the same molasses percent) is that it would make the dough even darker, which would be beyond an MM color.

Biz,

Until Norma gets the samples of liquid molasses from commercial sources to see if MM might be using a similar product, I think a combination of 7% Grandma's Original molasses and 4% light brown sugar (I used the Imperial brand for my last dough) should get you close to an MM dough from a color standpoint. You can use whatever hydration value and oil you'd like. You can also use or not use the small amount of wheat germ you have been using.

FYI, light brown sugar contains around 3.5% molasses. Dark brown sugar contains around 6.5%. The rest will be the part that adds sweetness.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #489 on: October 24, 2011, 06:31:24 PM »
This picture is my frozen dough ball at market today.  The dough ball had 7% Grandmaís Original Molasses and 2% light brown sugar in the formula.

Norma

Color seems awfully close to the real thing!

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #490 on: October 24, 2011, 06:35:07 PM »
Biz,

Until Norma gets the samples of liquid molasses from commercial sources to see if MM might be using a similar product, I think a combination of 7% Grandma's Original molasses and 4% light brown sugar (I used the Imperial brand for my last dough) should get you close to an MM dough from a color standpoint. You can use whatever hydration value and oil you'd like. You can also use or not use the small amount of wheat germ you have been using.

FYI, light brown sugar contains around 3.5% molasses. Dark brown sugar contains around 6.5%. The rest will be the part that adds sweetness.

Peter

Thanks for the suggestions!  You haven't been able to compare Grandma's Original with Brer Rabbit Mild, have you?  Grandma's must be lighter if 7% is going to be used because from my comparisons, 5% BR Mild is just about dead on from a color standpoint.  No worries either way.  I don't know if I'll go get some Grandma's or not.  I may try 5% BR Mild and then the brown sugar from there.  

As for the germ, I don't know if I mentioned it but I am definitely wanting to drop that a lot.  Down to 1% or possibly less.  There's been a slight flavor in my crusts that doesn't quite fit-in and I think this is the culprit.

Also Peter - any thoughts on the "failed" 4-day cold fermentation, in terms of affecting the sweetness?  I know it wasn't exactly germane to the exercise at hand, but would be educational to me if you have any insight.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 06:36:52 PM by Biz Markie »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #491 on: October 24, 2011, 06:39:22 PM »
Color seems awfully close to the real thing!

Biz,

On my recent visit to MM's the dough balls appeared darker than this attempt to me.  Good luck on your next attempt!  I did use Brer Rabbit mild flavored molasses in some of my attempts, but have switched to Grandma's Original molasses.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 06:41:31 PM by norma427 »


Offline JConk007

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3771
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Lovin my Oven!
    • Flirting with Fire
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #492 on: October 24, 2011, 07:16:46 PM »
Yes. I think  a shade darker hard to see with the cornmeal, but I did take note of the darker color of the dough at MM
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23468
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #493 on: October 24, 2011, 08:23:47 PM »
You haven't been able to compare Grandma's Original with Brer Rabbit Mild, have you?  Grandma's must be lighter if 7% is going to be used because from my comparisons, 5% BR Mild is just about dead on from a color standpoint.  No worries either way.  I don't know if I'll go get some Grandma's or not.  I may try 5% BR Mild and then the brown sugar from there.  

Also Peter - any thoughts on the "failed" 4-day cold fermentation, in terms of affecting the sweetness?  I know it wasn't exactly germane to the exercise at hand, but would be educational to me if you have any insight.

Biz,

The Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses, which is a second boil molasses, was the only Brer Rabbit molasses at my local supermarket. The Brer Rabbit Mild is a first boil molasses. I have been treating the Grandma's Original molasses as a first boil molasses but I learned recently that it is apparently packaged before the first boil. To my way of thinking, that may make the Grandma's Original molasses more of a Fancy grade molasses, which is the lightest of the retail brands of molasses but with the most sugar. You can see how the company that sells the Brer Rabbit and Grandma's molasses compares the various versions at those products at http://www.bgfoods.com/int_faq.asp. Also, see the Cook's Illustrated comparison test results for different brands of molasses at http://www.cooksillustrated.com/tastetests/overview.asp?docid=32258.

In your case with the Brer Rabbit Mild molasses, you won't need as much of that product as the Grandma's Original molasses because it is darker than the Grandma's Original molasses. And it will also have less sugar to contribute to crust sweetness. So, unless you don't care about the final dough and crust color, you may have to increase the amount of the light brown sugar to achieve that elusive crust sweetness.

As I noted recently, it is also possible that there are variations in the color of the dough balls at the various MM stores that are natural and unavoidable consequences of a commissary process that uses a liquid form of molasses. So you, Norma and I may be chasing our tails trying to make our dough balls look like the MM dough balls we saw, and where that benchmark color is in our minds only or through photos or other images that might not be entirely reliable because of different cameras and different lighting. In your case, you would have to make one of your dough balls that you think is of the right color and take it to one of your local MM locations and ask to compare it with one of their dough balls. You could do likewise if you were to be able to find an MM location that will sell you one of their dough balls.

On the matter of your "failed" four-day cold fermented dough, the sugar that contributes to final crust sweetness is called "residual sugar". Residual sugar is that sugar that remains in the dough at the time of baking. The amount of the residual sugar will depend on several factors, including the hydration of the dough, the amount of salt, the amount of yeast, any added sugar and its amount, and the manner and duration of fermentation (e.g., at room temperature or in the refrigerator). All else being equal, a low hydration dough will ferment faster than a lower hydration dough (because of reduced mobility of water and reduced biochemical activity), a dough with a lot of salt will ferment slower than one with a small amount of salt (because of its osmotic effect on yeast), a dough with a lot of yeast will ferment faster than one with a small amount of yeast, and a dough at room temperature will ferment faster than one fermented under refrigeration. If sugar is added to the dough, it can also slow down the fermentation process if it is used in a large enough amount because of its osmotic effect on the yeast. So, if in your case you used a low hydration for your dough, a small amount of yeast, a normal amount of salt, a cold fermentation, and a fairly large amount of added sugar, you should have had a fairly high residual sugar level to contribute to final crust sweetness at the time of baking (and also to crust coloration because of caramelization and the Maillard reactions). If you did not detect a noticeable sweetness, that perhaps means that you did not get enough sugar out of your molasses and the amount of added sugar was too low. In my last experiment, I used 7.5% Grandma's Original molasses and 7% raw cane sugar and the finished crust was overly sweet. That is why I went to 7% Grandma's Original molasses and 4% light brown sugar for my latest experiment. I won't know until I make the pizza whether that is the right combination or not but I was at least satisfied with the color of the dough.

The same factors as discussed above will also apply to an MM dough, whether it is a fresh dough or a frozen one. It is the numbers that will be different, not the principles.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #494 on: October 24, 2011, 09:27:18 PM »
Peter,

You could be right about us chasing our tails in the color of MMís dough.  I know when I looked at the picture I posted at Reply 279 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg155913.html#msg155913
that dough in MMís commissary looked really light to me.  I know it could be the lighting or angles of the camera, but if the yellow top on the one spray container is looked at, the dough is light in comparison to that yellow top on the spray container.

On another note, I sent Paulette from Dominoís Specialty Foods an email today asking her if she had gone to MMís yet.  She just replied this evening that she just arrived in Washington, DC on Sunday morning and didnít have time to go there yet.  I then asked her if she does go to MMís if she would let me know what she thinks of the crust in terms of sweetness, and if she thinks something other than molasses is added to their dough.

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23468
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #495 on: October 25, 2011, 08:00:10 PM »
Since I am scheduled to be out of town for a long weekend, I decided to use my latest frozen dough ball today to make a pizza. The dough I used is the one with the KABF and vital wheat gluten, 54% hydration, 0.60% IDY, 3% vegetable oil, 1.75% salt, 7% Grandma's Original molasses, and 4% light brown sugar. But no wheat germ. To speed up the process, rather than defrosting the dough ball in my refrigerator compartment for about 24 hours before using, this time I defrosted the dough ball for about 5 1/2 hours at room temperature. With today's temperature hitting a high of 86 degrees F (there were predictions that another record might be set), that turned out to be too fast a defrost. So, I put the dough back into the refrigerator for a few hours before using to make the pizza. At the point where the dough was put back into the refrigerator, it was softer than usual but still fairly stiff. When used to make the pizza, the dough ball opened up easily and handled beautifully and could be tossed and spun with impunity.

For today's bake, I decided to use two pizza stones. One was placed on the lowest oven rack position and the second one was placed on the second from the top oven rack position. The spacing between the two stones was around 7". Both stones were preheated at around 500 degrees F for one hour. The pizza was baked entirely on the bottom stone. The use of the two stones did extend the bake time to around 10 minutes. I believe that using the two stone method with a lower oven temperature should allow me to exceed a bake time of 10 minutes. That is the way that I will bake my next MM clone pizza.

The main purpose of the test was to see if I could get the degree of final crust sweetness we have all been striving for. As it turned out, the finished crust was sweet but still too sweet. My thought for the next experiment was to either use the same amount of Grandma's Original molasses or increase it by a percent or two and to reduce the amount of light brown sugar to around 2%. I then recalled that Norma's most recent MM clone dough uses 7% Grandma's Original molasses and 2% light brown sugar. I wouldn't be surprised to find that that is close to what we are looking for in terms of sweetness. So, I will be interested to see the results of Norma's latest MM clone pizza.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #496 on: October 25, 2011, 09:44:26 PM »
Well there is some good news, and bad news about the MMís pie I attempted.  The bad news was I took pictures of the slice of pizza from MMís that was frozen for Steve before and after the reheat.  Steve got to taste a real MMís slice, and he did enjoy it.  Steve did agree that my attempt last week was sweeter in taste than a real MMís slice.  The frozen slice did thaw and reheat well.  

Then I went to take pictures of the dough ball and how I opened the dough ball, trying to do it the same way I saw MMís pie makers form the dough balls and then open them.  The color of my dough ball was about the same as yesterday when I took the first pictures today.  I donít know what happened, but something strange really went on with the dough ball.  Somehow it became darker.  I thought what the heck it going on with that.  I commented to Steve, why would the dough ball change colors.  I am at a loss to explain how that happened.  Another mystery. After I had the dough ball formed and had taken more pictures, my memory stick on my camera became full.  We were also busy trying to make other pizzas, and I quickly deleted pictures (a whole bunch of pictures) I thought werenít pictures from today, and then continued to take pictures of how the dough ball looked almost exactly like the MMís dough balls I saw on Saturday in color and in how they handled.  I could even open and stretch the dough like the MMís pie makers and put it aside bunched together, and then take it apart without it sticking.  That is when I started taking more pictures, that I am now going to post.  The MMís attempt baked well, with a really big rim and the taste of the MMís pie really tasted like the MMís pie I had eaten at MMís in the sweetness of the rim and had about the same texture, except my pie was more airy.  Steve also commented that my attempt tasted almost like the real MMís slice he had just eaten. At least to me my MMís attempt in how the dough handled and taste of the crust did go well. That is the good news.  I think lowering the hydration and adding light brown sugar was a good idea.

All my other pictures were also deleted of my attempt at a Nancy Silvertonís pie too, and an experiment I did on the preferment Lehmann dough. That didnít make me happy either, because those pies did turn out well too.   :(

If anyone wants to see the formula I used today for my MMís attempt they can let me know.  I can scan it in my printer and then post it as a picture.  

Norma
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 09:46:26 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #497 on: October 25, 2011, 09:47:30 PM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #498 on: October 25, 2011, 09:48:53 PM »
Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24240
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #499 on: October 25, 2011, 09:51:17 PM »
Norma