Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 166885 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #780 on: November 25, 2011, 06:15:29 PM »
Norma,

It is interesting how we got diametrically opposed information from the Golden Barrel company.

Oscar knew what he was talking about. We discussed things like sucrose, invert sugar, fructose and glucose, as well as other technical matters, including the potassium and iron levels of molasses and the perceived health benefits of blackstrap molasses, and he spoke knowingly on these matters. FYI, I do not believe that Golden Barrel does the processing of the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses. I think Golden Barrel only does the packaging and sale of the product.

I spread a film of the Steen's cane syrup on a white sheet of paper with my other color samples and it looks to be of the same color as the Grandma's Original molasses.

Tomorrow, I hope to be able to give you another MM clone dough formulation based on the Golden Barrel product. It would have been nice to hear back from MM on my questions but it is still a good idea in my opinion to give the Golden Barrel product a try.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 08:43:36 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #781 on: November 25, 2011, 06:52:01 PM »
Norma,

It is interesting how we got diametrically opposed information from the Golden Barrel company.

Oscar knew what he was talking about. We discussed things like sucrose, invert sugar, fructose and glucose, as well as other technical matters, and he spoke knowingly on these matters. FYI, I do not believe that Golden Barrel does the processing of the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses. I think Golden Barrel only does the packaging and sale of the product.

I spread a film of the Steen's cane syrup on a white sheet of paper with my other color samples and it looks to be of the same color as the Grandma's Original molasses.

Tomorrow, I hope to be able to give you another MM clone dough formulation based on the Golden Barrel product. It would have been nice to hear back from MM on my questions but it is still a good idea in my opinion to give the Golden Barrel product a try.

Peter

Peter,

I agree, it was interesting how we got different answers to our questions, from (I think two) technical men at the Golden Barrel company.  I had asked to speak with a technical person, but of course, I wouldn’t be able to speak as technically as you can. 

Oscar did know what he was talking about.  It is interesting if you don’t believe Golden Barrel does process the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses when the man I spoke to said they do. 

Thanks for telling me that the Steen’s cane syrup on a white sheet of paper with your other color samples looks the same color as Grandma’s Original molasses.  The Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup I receive as a sample of is much lighter in color than any other molasses product I have on hand at home and also is much runnier.  Since I couldn’t see at my local supermarket what the Steen’s cane syrup looked like, that is why I asked you what it looked like.

Good to hear you might be able to give me a another MM clone formulation to try with the Golden Barrel product.  It isn’t really a lot sweeter than my other molasses products I have at home, so if would be interesting to know what kind of formulation you come up with.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #782 on: November 25, 2011, 07:14:18 PM »
Norma,

If you read the About page at http://www.goldenbarrel.com/about-us.php under the Good Food Inc. entry (Golden Molasses is a part of Good Food) I don't sense that Golden Barrel processes raw cane into syrup. However, they do blending of wet and dry ingredients. If what you were told about the cane syrup and blackstrap molasses being the ingredients for the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses, then they most likely do the blending for the product. The rest of the functions listed in the Good Food entry are not processing functions.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 07:45:05 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #783 on: November 25, 2011, 07:59:14 PM »
Norma,

If you read the About page at http://www.goldenbarrel.com/about-us.php under the Good Food Inc. entry (Golden Molasses is a part of Good Food) I don't sense that Golden Barrel processes raw cane into syrup. However, they do blending of wet and dry ingredients. If what you were told about the cane syrup and blackstrap molasses being the ingredients for the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses, then they most likely do the blending for the product. The rest of the functions listed in the Good Food entry are not processing functions.

Peter

Peter,

When I posted about speaking to the technical man at Golden Barrel at Reply 763 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg160530.html#msg160530
he said they don’t produce the cane juice/syrup at Golden Barrel.  It makes me wonder since you posted about you speaking to Oscar whether any blackstrap molasses is added to the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses or not. Oscar told you no blackstrap molasses is in that product.  I believe what Oscar told you. I wonder why two different technical men would tell us something different.  I also wonder how many places in the south sell something like Steen’s product or the Golden Barrel product that we might not know about.  Since we found out “molasses” can be defined in many “terms”, it can become very confusing.  I guess molasses is a “slippery” term just like “unrefined sugars” are. 

I knew Golden molasses was a part of Good Food, because I have been there before.  I sure don’t know if they do blending or not.  I am more confused than ever.  I don’t know if L&S Sweeteners (Goods Food sister company)  http://www.lssweeteners.com/  does the blending process or not for different products for Good Food. It seems like L&S Sweeteners does do customized sweetener blends for customers.  http://www.lssweeteners.com/

You don’t have to answer this post, I am still trying to ponder and understand.  :-D

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #784 on: November 25, 2011, 08:17:45 PM »
Norma,

I agree that it is all rather confusing. However, to refresh my memory, I went back to the B&G website and re-read the section What is Molasses, at http://www.bgfoods.com/grandmas/grandmas_products.asp. If you read that section, you could easily conclude that the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses product is equivalent to the Grandma's Original molasses. The same might also be said of the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup. I read elsewhere that cane syrup is often called "open kettle molasses", although it does not seem that Grandma's uses that expression.

What may differentiate the various brands is the blending of ingredients to achieve the desired color and flavor. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Steen's product does not have the same taste as the Grandma's Original molasses although the color is about the same as the Grandma's Original molasses.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #785 on: November 25, 2011, 08:30:26 PM »
Norma,

I think that you will find this article of interest: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/dining/13cane.html?pagewanted=all. You will note that the article mentions Steen's as well as a couple of other similar companies in the South.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #786 on: November 25, 2011, 09:00:11 PM »
Norma,

I agree that it is all rather confusing. However, to refresh my memory, I went back to the B&G website and re-read the section What is Molasses, at http://www.bgfoods.com/grandmas/grandmas_products.asp. If you read that section, you could easily conclude that the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses product is equivalent to the Grandma's Original molasses. The same might also be said of the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup. I read elsewhere that cane syrup is often called "open kettle molasses", although it does not seem that Grandma's uses that expression.

What may differentiate the various brands is the blending of ingredients to achieve the desired color and flavor. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Steen's product does not have the same taste as the Grandma's Original molasses although the color is about the same as the Grandma's Original molasses.

Peter

Norma,

I think that you will find this article of interest: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/dining/13cane.html?pagewanted=all. You will note that the article mentions Steen's as well as a couple of other similar companies in the South.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for helping me with my confusion.  You are right, if the B&G website is read, it could easily be concluded that Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses is equivalent to Grandma’s Original molasses.  It does taste almost the same to me.  I can understand what might differentiate the various brands is the blending of ingredients to achieve the desired color and flavor.  

Thanks for referencing the article from the NY Times.  I see the other manufacturers of unrefined cane syrups.  I also see Steen’s no longer grows all their own sugar cane as the raw material for their syrup and molasses.  That was an interesting read.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #787 on: November 26, 2011, 08:58:38 AM »
With Thanksgiving behind us, I made a pizza using the latest MM clone dough using the Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup (5.5%) and the Grandma’s Original molasses (6%). I calculated the amount of both products to use based on my preliminary review of the MM Nutrition Facts. I also lowered the amount of salt and increased the amount of oil, also based on my preliminary review of the MM Nutrition Facts. The main purpose of the test was to see if the combination of the Steen’s and the Grandma’s Original molasses would yield a sweeter finished crust and also to test the notion of the salt having an effect on that sweetness, as was postulated and discussed in recent posts.

Rather than making my standard 10” MM clone pepperoni pizza, I decided to try something entirely different. For the latest pizza, I followed the instructions for making an MM clone “House Special” as shown and described at http://www.nbcdfw.com/the-scene/food-drink/Mellow-Mushrooms-House-Special-Recipe.html. I followed the instructions as given except that I omitted the ground beef. The dough for that pizza was defrosted for two days in the refrigerator and brought out to room temperature (68 degrees F) for two hours before using to make the pizza. As it turned out, and somewhat inexplicably, the dough was actually ready to be used to make the pizza after only one hour, not the usual two hours. But, since I had turned on my oven after the first hour, the dough got an extra hour to warm up. The dough ball opened and handled easily. The pizza was baked on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated at 450 degrees F (per the instructions in the article) for one hour. I wondered whether I could extend the bake time to 25-30 minutes as noted in the article, but the best I could do was about 12 minutes. The article itself says to remove the pizza from the oven when the crust is golden brown, which is what I did.

The pizza turned out well (it looked like the pizza shown in the article) and was very tasty and, more importantly, the crust was noticeably sweet. So, in that respect, I would say that the experiment was a success. However, it is hard to say without further experimentation whether it was the particular combination and amounts of the Steen’s and Grandma’s molasses that was responsible for the sweetness or the lower amount of salt, or possibly a combination of the two. As noted above, I had established the amounts of the Steen’s and the Grandma’s Original molasses to be used based on my analysis of the MM Nutrition Facts. Whether those numbers are correct or even close is something we may learn if I get a response from MM to the questions I posed to them, but, then again, given the intricacies of Nutrition Facts, we may never get the answers we are looking for.

Interestingly, the crumb of the finished crust seemed lighter in color than normal, even though the dough itself looked a bit darker than normal. The crumb was also not as dense as usual, even with a formula hydration of only 51%. I’m sure that the large number and amounts of toppings and the relatively low bake temperature had an effect on the oven spring and final crust texture. That was also a reason why I deviated from my usual pepperoni pizza. I wanted to see what effect the weight of all of the toppings would have on the final crust and crumb characteristics.

In retrospect, it is possible that I could have used an even lower formula hydration. The Steen’s cane syrup is slightly thinner in consistency than the Grandma’s Original molasses and, hence, might suggest a slightly lower formula hydration. Another open question, one that was mentioned in recent posts, is whether the Steen’s is merely an equivalent of the Grandma’s Original molasses. The Steen’s and the Grandma’s Original molasses are quite similar in total sugars and their colors are about the same. I would describe the Steen’s as having more of a caramel-molasses flavor and the Grandma’s Original molasses as having a more traditional molasses flavor.

For my next experiment, I may try using only the Grandma’s Original molasses and with a lowered salt level in order to determine whether the salt quantity has the same effect in the pizza crust as it did in my simple kitchen experiments reported earlier in this thread.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #788 on: November 26, 2011, 10:03:50 AM »
With Thanksgiving behind us, I made a pizza using the latest MM clone dough using the Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup (5.5%) and the Grandma’s Original molasses (6%). I calculated the amount of both products to use based on my preliminary review of the MM Nutrition Facts. I also lowered the amount of salt and increased the amount of oil, also based on my preliminary review of the MM Nutrition Facts. The main purpose of the test was to see if the combination of the Steen’s and the Grandma’s Original molasses would yield a sweeter finished crust and also to test the notion of the salt having an effect on that sweetness, as was postulated and discussed in recent posts.

Rather than making my standard 10” MM clone pepperoni pizza, I decided to try something entirely different. For the latest pizza, I followed the instructions for making an MM clone “House Special” as shown and described at http://www.nbcdfw.com/the-scene/food-drink/Mellow-Mushrooms-House-Special-Recipe.html. I followed the instructions as given except that I omitted the ground beef. The dough for that pizza was defrosted for two days in the refrigerator and brought out to room temperature (68 degrees F) for two hours before using to make the pizza. As it turned out, and somewhat inexplicably, the dough was actually ready to be used to make the pizza after only one hour, not the usual two hours. But, since I had turned on my oven after the first hour, the dough got an extra hour to warm up. The dough ball opened and handled easily. The pizza was baked on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated at 450 degrees F (per the instructions in the article) for one hour. I wondered whether I could extend the bake time to 25-30 minutes as noted in the article, but the best I could do was about 12 minutes. The article itself says to remove the pizza from the oven when the crust is golden brown, which is what I did.

The pizza turned out well (it looked like the pizza shown in the article) and was very tasty and, more importantly, the crust was noticeably sweet. So, in that respect, I would say that the experiment was a success. However, it is hard to say without further experimentation whether it was the particular combination and amounts of the Steen’s and Grandma’s molasses that was responsible for the sweetness or the lower amount of salt, or possibly a combination of the two. As noted above, I had established the amounts of the Steen’s and the Grandma’s Original molasses to be used based on my analysis of the MM Nutrition Facts. Whether those numbers are correct or even close is something we may learn if I get a response from MM to the questions I posed to them, but, then again, given the intricacies of Nutrition Facts, we may never get the answers we are looking for.

Interestingly, the crumb of the finished crust seemed lighter in color than normal, even though the dough itself looked a bit darker than normal. The crumb was also not as dense as usual, even with a formula hydration of only 51%. I’m sure that the large number and amounts of toppings and the relatively low bake temperature had an effect on the oven spring and final crust texture. That was also a reason why I deviated from my usual pepperoni pizza. I wanted to see what effect the weight of all of the toppings would have on the final crust and crumb characteristics.

In retrospect, it is possible that I could have used an even lower formula hydration. The Steen’s cane syrup is slightly thinner in consistency than the Grandma’s Original molasses and, hence, might suggest a slightly lower formula hydration. Another open question, one that was mentioned in recent posts, is whether the Steen’s is merely an equivalent of the Grandma’s Original molasses. The Steen’s and the Grandma’s Original molasses are quite similar in total sugars and their colors are about the same. I would describe the Steen’s as having more of a caramel-molasses flavor and the Grandma’s Original molasses as having a more traditional molasses flavor.

For my next experiment, I may try using only the Grandma’s Original molasses and with a lowered salt level in order to determine whether the salt quantity has the same effect in the pizza crust as it did in my simple kitchen experiments reported earlier in this thread.

Peter


Peter,

Interesting how you calculated your recent MM clone dough formulation using 5.5% Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup and the Grandma’s Original molasses at 6%. and also lowered the amount of salt in the formula, based on your preliminary review of the MM Nutrition Facts provided by Gene.  I still can’t get the Nutrition Facts open on the MM website. 

I wonder how Gene found those Nutrition Facts from MM since I am not able to find them.  He must have a special way of searching. Have you had any success in clicking on the Nutrition Facts on MM main website? I haven’t received a call-back either from Melody about the links not working.

Great to hear your pizza turned out well, was very tasty, and more importantly, the crust was noticeably sweet.  I would say your latest MM attempt was successful.  ;D Great job! 

I also wonder why your crumb of the finished crust seemed lighter in color than normal, even though the dough itself looked a little darker than normal.  Seems like there must be some kind of chemical reaction going on with the dough. I have noticed different colors changes in some of the MM clone dough formulations also, and wondered what was going on with that.  I also wonder if Steen’s cane syrup is merely just a different kind of cane syrup or merely an equivalent of Grandma‘s Original molasses.  More on that in my next post. 

Good luck in your next experiment!

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #789 on: November 26, 2011, 10:05:17 AM »
Peter,

I did some research on the names from the link you had referenced before, about maybe different brands of cane syrups other than Steen’s.  I found it interesting that cane syrup also is called ribbon cane syrup. http://www.fainshoney.com/ribbonCaneSyrup1.asp   It seems like years ago many southern plantations and small farms devoted a portion of their sandy acreage to ribbon cane.  I also saw on the chowhound that someone mentions Carson Anne syrup as a ribbon cane syrup,  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/296346 and says Lyle’s Golden Syrup is very different from ribbon cane syrup.  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/296346

In this article it says cane syrup is making a comeback and cane syrup is a Southern sweetener,   http://news.ufl.edu/2001/10/05/canesyrup/ and making cane syrup is an art.  It even seems like cane syrup is different from sweet sorghum from syrup makers.com http://www.syrupmakers.com/  This is a link to small cane syrup producers. http://www.syrupmakers.com/cane_syrup.html  I find it is interesting to see how they make the cane syrup. 

Todd’s cane syrup also looks interesting but they aren’t a big producer either.  http://www.wtvy.com/news/headlines/34116734.html  and http://www.alfafarmers.org/neighbors/neighborsStory.phtml?id=4665

It seems like making cane syrup is a South Georgia and North Florida tradition from this article.  http://www.oldarlington.org/history/j-m-railroad/arlington-cane-grinding-and-syrup-making   If this article is clicked though it also tell how cane syrup is made in small volumes, but does give good information about making cane syrup. http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20091207/ARTICLES/912049915?p=1&tc=pg

I wonder if MM might be using cane syrup in their formulation for their pizza dough.  If MM might be using cane syrup it would be another kind of syrup to be able to understand.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #790 on: November 26, 2011, 10:34:31 AM »
Norma,

Based on the results of my most recent experiment, and using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I have set forth below a new MM clone dough formulation (MM#6) for you to consider. That dough formulation is similar to the one that I last used but for the thickness factor and pizza size and the fact that you will be using your Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses instead of my blend of Steen’s cane syrup and Grandma’s Original molasses. What I would like to see is whether the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses alone and the reduced salt level produces the same sweetness effects as my recent experiment. I have no idea at this point what the dough and crust coloration will be like, although as I mentioned in my last post, the color of the Steen’s and the Grandma’s Original molasses look alike to me.

I should also note that, according to the Nutrition Facts given for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/sugars-and-sweeteners/syrups-molasses/260069/golden-barrel-supreme-baking-molasses-5-gal-585lb, and also elsewhere on the Internet, that product contains 13 grams of sugars for one tablespoon (20 grams). That is lower than most pure cane syrups (the Steen’s has 15 grams for one tablespoon, 21 grams, and Grandma’s Original molasses has 14 grams of sugars per tablespoon, 15ml), so either the Nutrition Facts for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses reflects the addition of blackstrap molasses, as noted in the Ingredients list, or else the current Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses has a higher value of cane syrup (and no blackstrap molasses, as Oscar indicated). I wish I had asked Oscar for the amount of sugars in the current product but at the time it did not occur to me to be an issue.

Based on the water content of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses as given to me by Oscar (about 20%), I estimate the “adjusted” hydration of the new MM#6 clone dough formulation to be about 53.3%, Taking into account the amount of oil, the “effective” hydration becomes 55.8%. I think you may be OK with a formula hydration of 51%, but I am sure you will be able to tell when you make the dough using high-gluten flour whether any further adjustments are needed. For salt, I suggest that you use regular table salt, if only to eliminate the type of salt as an issue. In the expanded dough calculating tool, I used the Molasses entry for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and adjusted the volume measurements to correspond to the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.

MM#6-Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation
Unbleached, Unbromated High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (Spring Water) (51%):
IDY (0.60%):
Table Salt (1.65%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.46%):
Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses (11.5%):
Total (167.21%):
314.41 g  |  11.09 oz | 0.69 lbs
160.35 g  |  5.66 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.89 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
5.19 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
7.73 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
36.16 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.42 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
525.72 g | 18.54 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.1204643
Note: Dough is for a single 14” pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.118684; “adjusted” hydration = 53.3%; “effective” hydration = 55.8%; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

With so few producers making cane syrup molasses, at least according to the NY Times article referenced earlier and your research, and perhaps even fewer on a commercial scale, one has to wonder where MM is getting its “molasses” and what it constitutes. Hopefully your experiment with MM#6 and my next experiment will shed some light on this.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 01:28:40 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #791 on: November 26, 2011, 10:54:56 AM »
I still can’t get the Nutrition Facts open on the MM website. 

I wonder how Gene found those Nutrition Facts from MM since I am not able to find them.  He must have a special way of searching. Have you had any success in clicking on the Nutrition Facts on MM main website? I haven’t received a call-back either from Melody about the links not working.

Norma,

I printed out the MM Nutrition Facts using the link that Gene provided and didn't think to go back to check out the link at the MM website. But when I tried it, it didn't work for me either.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #792 on: November 26, 2011, 11:53:17 AM »
Norma,

Based on the results of my most recent experiment, and using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I have set forth below a new MM clone dough formulation (MM#6) for you to consider. That dough formulation is similar to the one that I last used but for the thickness factor and pizza size and the fact that you will be using your Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses instead of my blend of Steen’s cane syrup and Grandma’s Original molasses. What I would like to see is whether the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses alone and the reduced salt level produces the same sweetness effects as my recent experiment. I have no idea at this point what the dough and crust coloration will be like, although as I mentioned in my last post, the color of the Steen’s and the Grandma’s Original molasses look alike to me.

I should also note that, according to the Nutrition Facts given for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/sugars-and-sweeteners/syrups-molasses/260069/golden-barrel-supreme-baking-molasses-5-gal-585lb, and also elsewhere on the Internet, that product contains 13 grams of sugars for one tablespoon (20 grams). That is lower than most pure cane syrups (the Steen’s has 15 grams for one tablespoon, 21 grams, and Grandma’s Original molasses has 14 grams of sugars per tablespoon, 15ml), so either the Nutrition Facts for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses reflects the addition of blackstrap molasses, as noted in the Ingredients list, or else the current Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses has a higher value of cane syrup (and no blackstrap molasses, as Oscar indicated). I wish I had asked Oscar for the amount of sugars in the current product but at the time it did not occur to me to be an issue.

Based on the water content of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses as given to me by Oscar (about 20%), I estimate the “adjusted” hydration of the new MM#6 clone dough formulation to be about 53.3%, Taking into account the amount of oil, the “effective” hydration becomes 55.8%. I think you may be OK with a formula hydration of 51%, but I am sure you will be able to tell when you make the dough using high-gluten flour whether any further adjustments are needed. For salt, I suggest that you use regular table salt, if only to eliminate the type of salt as an issue. In the expanded dough calculating tool, I used the Molasses entry for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and adjusted the volume measurements to correspond to the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.

MM#6-Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation
Unbleached, Unbromated High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (Spring Water) (51%):
IDY (0.60%):
Table Salt (1.65%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.46%):
Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses (11.5%):
Total (167.21%):
314.41 g  |  11.09 oz | 0.69 lbs
160.35 g  |  5.66 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.89 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
5.19 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
7.73 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
36.16 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.22 tsp | 1.74 tbsp
525.72 g | 18.54 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.1204643
Note: Dough is for a single 14” pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.118684; “adjusted” hydration = 53.3%; “effective” hydration = 55.8%; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

With so few producers making cane syrup molasses, at least according to the NY Times article referenced earlier and your research, and perhaps even fewer on a commercial scale, one has to wonder where MM is getting its “molasses” and what it constitutes. Hopefully your experiment with MM#6 and my next experiment will shed some light on this.

Peter


Thanks for setting-forth the next formulation for me to try with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.  Since the Nutrition Facts given for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses does seem to contain lower amounts of sugar than Steen’s and Grandma’s Original molasses, I really wonder if there will be any sweet taste in the crust, by using the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses alone without any other sweeteners.  I guess we will see if the reduced amount of salt will help with the sweetness issues we had in the past when no other sugars were added to different molasses products.  Hopefully with this experiment, and your next experiment we will find out if any sweetness can be perceived without added sweeteners.

I know I wonder where MM is getting its molasses and what it constitutes, and if they might be using some kind of molasses product alone.  I still remember the kitchen manager at MM in Washington DC telling me that an additional sweetener is used, (which he mentioned something like brown sugar, but didn’t go into more details).  It makes me also wonder since MM had such a small operation to start with, maybe they did use all local products and the products could have been the cane syrup sweetener they use in the south.

Norma,

I printed out the MM Nutrition Facts using the link that Gene provided and didn't think to go back to check out the link at the MM website. But when I tried it, it didn't work for me either.

Peter

Thanks also for telling me you can’t get the link to work either.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #793 on: November 26, 2011, 01:47:15 PM »
Since the Nutrition Facts given for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses does seem to contain lower amounts of sugar than Steen’s and Grandma’s Original molasses, I really wonder if there will be any sweet taste in the crust, by using the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses alone without any other sweeteners.Norma

Norma,

If the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses is 100% cane syrup, it is possible that the Nutrition Facts I referenced are not correct as to the current form of that product.

BTW, I forget to correct the volume measurements for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses when I first posted the new MM#6 formulation. The numbers are now correct.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #794 on: November 26, 2011, 05:47:11 PM »
Norma,

If the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses is 100% cane syrup, it is possible that the Nutrition Facts I referenced are not correct as to the current form of that product.

BTW, I forget to correct the volume measurements for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses when I first posted the new MM#6 formulation. The numbers are now correct.

Peter

Peter,

If the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses is 100% cane syrup, I agree it is possible that the Nutrition Facts might not be current for that product.  At Dutch Valley for the case (12/16 oz. bottles) of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses it says the Nutrition Facts are sugars 13 grams.  It also lists the ingredients as cane juice, blackstrap molasses.  http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/sugars-and-sweeteners/syrups-molasses/260058/golden-barrel-supreme-baking-molasses-12-16oz
That is why I posted I really don’t think the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses alone will make the crust sweet.  I will wait until I use your formulation to see what happens. 

Thanks for correcting the volume measurement for the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #795 on: November 26, 2011, 06:34:20 PM »
Norma,

I made another MM clone dough ball today that is intended to parallel your experiment but using the Grandma's Original molasses at 11.3%. I also used less salt. The purpose of the experiment is to see if it is possible to get adequate sweetness from molasses alone, and whether using less salt helps achieve that objective. The experiment is a fairly narrow one and if it fails to achieve or clarify the above objectives, then I can scratch that experiment off of the list and look elsewhere for a solution.

The color of my dough ball is a bit darker than the last one but that is not something that concerns me at this point. Since the Grandma's Original molasses is the supermarket brand that appears to have the most sugars and the lightest color, that product seems to offer the best chance of all the molasses products I have on hand, along with the Steen's, if that product is equivalent to the Grandma's Original molasses. My last dough had 6% Grandma's Original molasses and 5.5% Steen's, and I clearly detected sweetness in the finished crust. I got the 11.5% figure for your Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses by adding the two percents together. Plus I lowered the salt level.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #796 on: November 26, 2011, 09:29:17 PM »
Norma,

I made another MM clone dough ball today that is intended to parallel your experiment but using the Grandma's Original molasses at 11.3%. I also used less salt. The purpose of the experiment is to see if it is possible to get adequate sweetness from molasses alone, and whether using less salt helps achieve that objective. The experiment is a fairly narrow one and if it fails to achieve or clarify the above objectives, then I can scratch that experiment off of the list and look elsewhere for a solution.

The color of my dough ball is a bit darker than the last one but that is not something that concerns me at this point. Since the Grandma's Original molasses is the supermarket brand that appears to have the most sugars and the lightest color, that product seems to offer the best chance of all the molasses products I have on hand, along with the Steen's, if that product is equivalent to the Grandma's Original molasses. My last dough had 6% Grandma's Original molasses and 5.5% Steen's, and I clearly detected sweetness in the finished crust. I got the 11.5% figure for your Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses by adding the two percents together. Plus I lowered the salt level.

Peter


Peter,

I know the purpose of these experiments, both of yours and mine, is to see if less salt is added if more sweetness can be detected in the crust.  It will be interesting to see if that really makes a difference in the crust when the pizza when it is baked.  Thanks for telling me about your last formulation you tried with Grandma’s Original Molasses and Steen’s and that is how you arrived at my MM#6-Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation.  I will await to see how your and my experiments turn out.

If you remember, I did do a test with Domino Homemaid molasses with 11% molasses in the formula and it had no sweet taste in the curst at Reply 580 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158700.html#msg158700 but then it did have a higher amount of salt in the formula.

I also keep thinking about what Gene said at Reply 576 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158654.html#msg158654
about he bet’s there are “old timers” in South Georgia that grew up with sorghum molasses, and you would have a hard time convincing them that sorghum “molasses” was not real molasses.  I looked a little more about sorghum today, and it seems even sorghum could even be used.  Seems like there are even different kinds of sorghum if searches are done, but I really didn’t get into a lot of searches.
http://nssppa.org/Cooking_with_Sorghum.html  http://nssppa.org/Sweet_Sorghum_FAQs.html

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #797 on: November 26, 2011, 10:44:13 PM »
Norma,

The information that you provided on the Homemaid product at Reply 532 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158117.html#msg158117) indicates that it is molasses, not pure cane syrup. From the information you posted, it appears that a 20-gram serving, which is equivalent to a tablespoon, contains about 13 grams of sugars. The Steen's has 15 grams of sugars, and the Grandma's Original molasses is at 14 grams. It remains to be seen where the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses falls in the pecking order. You may be right that it might not work. The Steen's might be a better candidate, either alone or in combination with a molasses product. I want to see if the Grandma's Original molasses will work alone if used in large enough amount, together with a reduced salt level.

As for the sorghum syrup, I tend to doubt that that is a product that MM would be using. Sorghum syrup has simple sugars but overall the product really isn't a particularly sweet product. If you look at the relative sweetness chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, where sucrose is 100, sorghum is 69. Molasses is 74. Honey is just below sucrose. Also, I thought that Biz tried sorghum and ruled it out of contention.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:54:57 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #798 on: November 26, 2011, 11:05:02 PM »
Norma,

The information that you provided on the Homemaid product at Reply 532 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg158117.html#msg158117) indicates that it is molasses, not pure cane syrup. From the information you posted, it appears that a 20-gram serving, which is equivalent to a tablespoon, contains about 13 grams of sugars. The Steen's has 15 grams of sugars, and the Grandma's Original molasses is at 14 grams. It remains to be seen where the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses falls in the pecking order. You may be right that it might not work. The Steen's might be a better candidate, either alone or in combination with a molasses product. I want to see if the Grandma's Original molasses will work alone if used in large enough amount, together with a reduced salt level.

As for the sorghum syrup, I tend to doubt that that is a product that MM would be using. Sorghum syrup has simple sugars but overall the product really isn't a particularly sweet product. If you look at the relative sweetness chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, where sucrose is 100, sorghum is 69. Molasses is 74. Honey is just below sucrose. Also, I thought that Biz tried sorghum and ruled it out of contention.

Peter



Peter,

Yes the Homemaid product did taste like molasses.  The Golden Barrel product also tastes almost the same.  That is what I think is interesting about these different products, called molasses or cane syrup.

It seems this is a bigger company that does produce cane syrup, and does also have bigger companies they work with.  http://alagasyrup.com/index.html Maybe they could give us more information about cane syrup.

Your are probably right about MM not using sorghum, and I know Biz did try it out, but didn’t remember if he did more than one experiment with it.  Thanks for referencing the link.  I see where sorghum is on the relative sweetness chart.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #799 on: November 26, 2011, 11:20:07 PM »
Norma,

According to Amazon, at http://www.amazon.com/Alaga-Cane-Syrup-16-oz/dp/B00168ACUI, it looks like the Alaga cane syrup product contains corn syrup as well as cane syrup.

Peter