Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[norma427]

Norma,

According to Amazon, at http://www.amazon.com/Alaga-Cane-Syrup-16-oz/dp/B00168ACUI, it looks like the Alaga cane syrup product contains corn syrup as well as cane syrup.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't see that the Alaga Cane Syrup did contain corn syrup as well as cane syrup. I just looked at the history of the Alaga Syrup company and thought since they were so old, they did produce plain cane syrup.  http://alagasyrup.com/int/history.html I was wrong again. 

Norma

[Jet_deck]

....  I wonder how Gene found those Nutrition Facts from MM since I am not able to find them.  He must have a special way of searching. Have you had any success in clicking on the Nutrition Facts on MM main website? I haven’t received a call-back either from Melody about the links not working....

Norma

Nothing really special Norma.  When I clicked on the MM nutritional link, it didn't work the first time.  An hour later that pdf came up and that was when I posted it.

Between you and Peter, you have probably cornered the market on knowledge relating to molasses/cane syrup/honey/brown sugar/corn syrup and anything in between.

My .02 position on molasses is this:  Unless you are selling it as a commodity in bulk on the stock exchange (where it should be checked by the USDA before import/export), then you could probably put black food coloring with High Fructose Corn Syrup and sell it as a "food additive"  No difference than we have seen with the adulteration of honey, olive oil, tomatoes or flour.

Keep up the good work.

[norma427]

Nothing really special Norma.  When I clicked on the MM nutritional link, it didn't work the first time.  An hour later that pdf came up and that was when I posted it.

Between you and Peter, you have probably cornered the market on knowledge relating to molasses/cane syrup/honey/brown sugar/corn syrup and anything in between.

My .02 position on molasses is this:  Unless you are selling it as a commodity in bulk on the stock exchange (where it should be checked by the USDA before import/export), then you could probably put black food coloring with High Fructose Corn Syrup and sell it as a "food additive"  No difference than we have seen with the adulteration of honey, olive oil, tomatoes or flour.

Keep up the good work.

Gene,

Thanks for posting how you found the MM Nutrition Facts pdf.  I thought you might have been some kind of computer wizard. 

This thread has taught me a lot about molasses and anything that might be called molasses, but I have a hard time keeping everything straightened out and remembering everything.  Peter tries to keep me in line. 

I agree with you that molasses is like honey, olive oil, tomatoes, and flour.  They all get adulterated.   

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Between you and Peter, you have probably cornered the market on knowledge relating to molasses/cane syrup/honey/brown sugar/corn syrup and anything in between.

Gene,

I'm sure that by now Norma and I have put everyone to sleep. They are perhaps all saying "Wake us when it's over" .

Peter

[norma427]

I mixed the MM#6 Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation Peter set-forth at Reply 790  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161079.html#msg161079  last evening and then froze the dough ball.  The dough ball was taken out of the freezer this morning to be defrosted over a two day period.  The dough mixed well and the color of the dough looked good.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

I made a mistake before when I posted that I saw Steen’s cane syrup at my local supermarket.   It was Lyle’s Golden Syrup.  I checked again today and I did post wrong.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I hate loose ends so I decided to call Oscar again at Golden Barrel to get clarification on the matter of whether the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses contains blackstrap molasses or not. I mentioned to him that you had been told by someone else at Golden Barrel that there was blackstrap molasses in the product and that the information at Dutch Valley (which, it turns out, is a distributor of many Golden Barrel products: http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/vendors/7889/good-food) also indicates that blackstrap molasses is one of the ingredients in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. I also mentioned that the sugars were listed in the Nutrition facts at 13 grams for a 20-gram serving, which seemed low to me for a pure raw cane syrup. He apparently sensed that maybe he had given me incorrect information when we last spoke. So, he checked with a colleague who told him that there is indeed blackstrap molasses in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. It represents 10% of the product. So, you were right after all.

Since I had Oscar's attention, I decided to also ask him whether Golden Barrel makes a pure raw cane syrup (I did not see it in the Dutch Valley list of Golden Barrel products). He said that he didn't think so but that they could package some pure raw cane syrup if someone wanted it. I asked him what the sugars would come to for such a product and, after doing some calculations, he said 13.4 grams for a 20-21 gram serving (about a tablespoon). When I mentioned that that still seemed to be a bit low for a pure raw cane syrup, he said that the sugars numbers for pure raw cane sugar and molasses in general can vary somewhat based on the particular lot of raw cane from which the cane juice is extracted, weather related conditions and other factors. Plus the numbers are subject to rounding that can make comparisons somewhat more difficult.

Until you make a pizza at market tomorrow using the Golden Barrel dough formulation (MM#6) I came up with we will not know whether you will get the desired degree of sweetness. Blackstrap molasses has the lowest level of sugars of the various forms of molasses but will have the most pronounced (almost bitter) taste of all the molasses forms. The color of the dough and pizza crust/crumb might also be a bit darker but perhaps not greatly so because it is only used at 10%.

So, there you have it.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I hate loose ends so I decided to call Oscar again at Golden Barrel to get clarification on the matter of whether the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses contains blackstrap molasses or not. I mentioned to him that you had been told by someone else at Golden Barrel that there was blackstrap molasses in the product and that the information at Dutch Valley (which, it turns out, is a distributor of many Golden Barrel products: http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/vendors/7889/good-food) also indicates that blackstrap molasses is one of the ingredients in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. I also mentioned that the sugars were listed in the Nutrition facts at 13 grams for a 20-gram serving, which seemed low to me for a pure raw cane syrup. He apparently sensed that maybe he had given me incorrect information when we last spoke. So, he checked with a colleague who told him that there is indeed blackstrap molasses in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. It represents 10% of the product. So, you were right after all.

Since I had Oscar's attention, I decided to also ask him whether Golden Barrel makes a pure raw cane syrup (I did not see it in the Dutch Valley list of Golden Barrel products). He said that he didn't think so but that they could package some pure raw cane syrup if someone wanted it. I asked him what the sugars would come to for such a product and, after doing some calculations, he said 13.4 grams for a 20-21 gram serving (about a tablespoon). When I mentioned that that still seemed to be a bit low for a pure raw cane syrup, he said that the sugars numbers for pure raw cane sugar and molasses in general can vary somewhat based on the particular lot of raw cane from which the cane juice is extracted, weather related conditions and other factors. Plus the numbers are subject to rounding that can make comparisons somewhat more difficult.

Until you make a pizza at market tomorrow using the Golden Barrel dough formulation (MM#6) I came up with we will not know whether you will get the desired degree of sweetness. Blackstrap molasses has the lowest level of sugars of the various forms of molasses but will have the most pronounced (almost bitter) taste of all the molasses forms. The color of the dough and pizza crust/crumb might also be a bit darker but perhaps not greatly so because it is only used at 10%.

So, there you have it.

Peter

Peter,

It is good to hear you called Oscar again and found out there is 10% blackstrap molasses in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses.  You are always good at being able to talk technically to another technical person.  It is interesting that Oscar said that pure raw cane syrup only contained 13.4 grams of sugars for a 20-21 gram serving, even if other factors are considered.  That seems a bit low to me too.  I think I remember when I was at the supermarket yesterday that Lyles golden syrup has 17 grams of sugar (but that is a lighter product), but I don’t remember for what grams of serving that was for.  I could be wrong on the sugar number though. 

I really don’t think there will be any sweetness in the crust tomorrow, but will wait and see.  I could be wrong on that too.  The color of the dough ball didn’t look out of line with some of my other experiments on this thread, and today the color of the MM clone dough ball looked okay to me. 

Where do you think all this leads us to?  I will think MM has to be adding some other kind of sweetener to make their crust have a sweet taste.  Just from seeing different products if they can be all called “molasses”, they all really don’t have that much sugars in them. 

You also have your experimental dough to try out.  I will be interested in how that turn out.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I really don’t think there will be any sweetness in the crust tomorrow, but will wait and see.  I could be wrong on that too.

Norma,

I took the amount of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses in the MM#6 formulation I gave you and calculated a sucrose equivalency of the constituent sugars in the Golden Supreme Baking Molasses (sucrose, fructose and glucose). The purpose of the exercise was to arrive at an overall sweetness value in relation to sucrose, or ordinary table sugar. The value I got was 6.6%. That would be like saying that you used 6.6% table sugar in your MM#6 dough instead of the Golden Barrel Supreme Mixing Molasses. If my calculation is correct, the question becomes whether you will be able to taste sweetness in a crust with 6.6% sucrose equivalency. I did a similar calculation but with the assumption that the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses was 100% pure cane syrup, which was the assumption I was laboring under untill I spoke with Oscar today, and the sucrose equivalency value is 7.7%.  

For comparison purposes, I did a similar calculation for the recent MM clone dough formulation with 5.5% Steen's 100% pure cane syrup and 6% Grandma's Original molasses and got a sucrose equivalency of 8.13%. As you may recall, I clearly detected sweetness in the finished crust with that particular combination of sweeteners. The corresponding value for my most recent MM clone dough formulation, with 11.3% Grandma's Original molasses, is 7.9%. Unless there is something really unique about the Steen's product, I would expect to detect sweetness in the crust that is made with the formulation. But, like you, I will have to await the actual results. I have moved the latest dough ball from the freezer to the refrigerator compartment and plan to make the pizza on Wednesday.

I also went back to the MM clone dough formulation where I used 6% honey and 7% Grandma's Original molasses, and the sucrose equivalency I calculated is 7.7%. That combination also produced detectible sweetness in the finished crust.

The above calculations were based on the percents given for molasses and honey at the bottom of November's post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1272.msg31890/topicseen.html#msg31890, and also the relative sweetness data given at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png. No doubt there are nuances of the various sweeteners that can't be captured by my calculations but I wouldn't know how to account for them. Remember, also, that part of our experiments is to determine if salt levels affect the sensation of sweetness.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I took the amount of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses in the MM#6 formulation I gave you and calculated a sucrose equivalency of the constituent sugars in the Golden Supreme Baking Molasses (sucrose, fructose and glucose). The purpose of the exercise was to arrive at an overall sweetness value in relation to sucrose, or ordinary table sugar. The value I got was 6.6%. That would be like saying that you used 6.6% table sugar in your MM#6 dough instead of the Golden Barrel Supreme Mixing Molasses. If my calculation is correct, the question becomes whether you will be able to taste sweetness in a crust with 6.6% sucrose equivalency. I did a similar calculation but with the assumption that the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses was 100% pure cane syrup, which was the assumption I was laboring under untill I spoke with Oscar today, and the sucrose equivalency value is 7.7%.  

For comparison purposes, I did a similar calculation for the recent MM clone dough formulation with 5.5% Steen's 100% pure cane syrup and 6% Grandma's Original molasses and got a sucrose equivalency of 8.13%. As you may recall, I clearly detected sweetness in the finished crust with that particular combination of sweeteners. The corresponding value for my most recent MM clone dough formulation, with 11.3% Grandma's Original molasses, is 7.9%. Unless there is something really unique about the Steen's product, I would expect to detect sweetness in the crust that is made with the formulation. But, like you, I will have to await the actual results. I have moved the latest dough ball from the freezer to the refrigerator compartment and plan to make the pizza on Wednesday.

I also went back to the MM clone dough formulation where I used 6% honey and 7% Grandma's Original molasses, and the sucrose equivalency I calculated is 7.7%. That combination also produced detectible sweetness in the finished crust.

The above calculations were based on the percents given for molasses and honey at the bottom of November's post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1272.msg31890/topicseen.html#msg31890, and also the relative sweetness data given at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png. No doubt there are nuances of the various sweeteners that can't be captured by my calculations but I wouldn't know how to account for them. Remember, also, that part of our experiments is to determine if salt levels affect the sensation of sweetness.

Peter

Peter,

Since I can’t figure out the sucrose equivalency of the constituent sugars in the Golden Supreme Baking Molasses, (sucrose, fructose and glucose) it makes more sense now that you explained to me that the purpose of this exercise was to arrive at an overall sweetness value in relation to sucrose.  I didn’t know it would be like saying I used 6.6% table sugar in the MM#6  clone dough instead of Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. 

I also understand more now about your MM clone dough formulation with 5.5% Steen’s 100% pure cane syrup and 6% Grandma’s Original molasses.  I do recall, you clearly detected sweetness in the finished crust with that combination of sweeteners.

Maybe I was a little dense in understanding what was going on.  All I looked at was the total sugars and couldn’t understand anything beyond that.  Your explanations were helpful.  November and you are way over my head in knowledge, but at least I understand more now.

I remember the purpose of our experiments is if salt levels affect the sensation of sweetness.

Sorry, to make you explain so much.  I should have known you know what you are doing, when figuring out how everything fits for sweetness.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Sorry, to make you explain so much.  I should have known you know what you are doing, when figuring out how everything fits for sweetness.

Norma,

Actually, I am glad that you raised the issue of sweetness. I had never done any sucrose equivalency calculations before although I had kicked around the thought several times before especially since everyone can relate to the sweetness that sucrose imparts to things. I'm not sure whether sucrose equivalency is a good tool but it might allow us to compare different kinds and quantities of sweeteners and sweetener combinations in the same language (sucrose). I suspect that there are also other factors like ash content and the different fermentation rates of different kinds of sweeteners that might affect residual sugars and the final sweetness and taste of the finished crust. There is also conversion of starch to sugars that can affect residual sugar levels. It perhaps helps that the MM clone doughs are frozen and even after defrosting and tempering at room temperature don't get a great deal of fermentation. That might allow more of the added sweeteners to remain as residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Actually, I am glad that you raised the issue of sweetness. I had never done any sucrose equivalency calculations before although I had kicked around the thought several times before especially since everyone can relate to the sweetness that sucrose imparts to things. I'm not sure whether sucrose equivalency is a good tool but it might allow us to compare different kinds and quantities of sweeteners and sweetener combinations in the same language (sucrose). I suspect that there are also other factors like ash content and the different fermentation rates of different kinds of sweeteners that might affect residual sugars and the final sweetness and taste of the finished crust. There is also conversion of starch to sugars that can affect residual sugar levels. It perhaps helps that the MM clone doughs are frozen and even after defrosting and tempering at room temperature don't get a great deal of fermentation. That might allow more of the added sweeteners to remain as residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad that you don’t get upset with me for asking so many questions, and then having to find links to explain things to me.  I didn’t know you never did any sucrose equivalency calculations before.  How sucrose imparts things is very interesting.  I have no idea if the sucrose equivalency is a good tool, but I am sure you will somehow figure out to use that tool to your advantage in understanding more.  I know there also a conversion of starch to sugars that can affect residual sugar levels.  I also think it perhaps helps that the MM clone doughs are frozen and even after defrosting and tempering at room temperature the dough ball really doesn’t get a lot of fermentation.  It could mean that that might allow the added sweeteners to remain as residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I want to thank you for setting-forth the MM# 6 clone formulation, and my doubting that using the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses alone, with a lower salt percent, wouldn’t give any sweet taste in the crust.  The MM # 6 clone formulation was everything I was looking for.  The taste of the crust had the right amount of sweetness that I had tasted in the real MM crust I had eaten in Washington DC.  The texture of the crumb was very good, there was a big rim, and the bottom crust browned well, without a screen.  The dough ball opened well, could be tossed well, and there weren’t any problems with the dough, bake, or final MM clone pizza.

I applaud you for doing the test to find out if less salt would give more sweetness.  That was a very good thinking on your part to even try an experiment like you did.

The dough ball sat out at room temperature for 4 hrs., without much of any noticeable rise or fermentation.

I don’t know if you want me to try any tweaks to this formula, but I am more than satisfied with the formulation.  Steve, Randy, and my other taste testers also though this MM clone pie was the best. 

Thanks so much!  This event calls for a celebration on all the hard work you did on this thread, and helping me and the other members. 

I have two slices I saved to reheat.

Norma

[norma427]

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[norma427]

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[norma427]

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[norma427]

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[norma427]

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[norma427]

Norma