Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 210461 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #800 on: November 26, 2011, 11:38:29 PM »
Norma,

According to Amazon, at http://www.amazon.com/Alaga-Cane-Syrup-16-oz/dp/B00168ACUI, it looks like the Alaga cane syrup product contains corn syrup as well as cane syrup.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't see that the Alaga Cane Syrup did contain corn syrup as well as cane syrup. I just looked at the history of the Alaga Syrup company and thought since they were so old, they did produce plain cane syrup.  http://alagasyrup.com/int/history.html I was wrong again.  :-D

Norma


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #801 on: November 27, 2011, 12:22:14 AM »
....  I wonder how Gene found those Nutrition Facts from MM since I am not able to find them.  He must have a special way of searching. Have you had any success in clicking on the Nutrition Facts on MM main website? I haven’t received a call-back either from Melody about the links not working....

Norma

Nothing really special Norma.  When I clicked on the MM nutritional link, it didn't work the first time.  An hour later that pdf came up and that was when I posted it.

Between you and Peter, you have probably cornered the market on knowledge relating to molasses/cane syrup/honey/brown sugar/corn syrup and anything in between.

My .02 position on molasses is this:  Unless you are selling it as a commodity in bulk on the stock exchange (where it should be checked by the USDA before import/export), then you could probably put black food coloring with High Fructose Corn Syrup and sell it as a "food additive"  No difference than we have seen with the adulteration of honey, olive oil, tomatoes or flour.

Keep up the good work. :chef:

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #802 on: November 27, 2011, 08:17:48 AM »
Nothing really special Norma.  When I clicked on the MM nutritional link, it didn't work the first time.  An hour later that pdf came up and that was when I posted it.

Between you and Peter, you have probably cornered the market on knowledge relating to molasses/cane syrup/honey/brown sugar/corn syrup and anything in between.

My .02 position on molasses is this:  Unless you are selling it as a commodity in bulk on the stock exchange (where it should be checked by the USDA before import/export), then you could probably put black food coloring with High Fructose Corn Syrup and sell it as a "food additive"  No difference than we have seen with the adulteration of honey, olive oil, tomatoes or flour.

Keep up the good work. :chef:



Gene,

Thanks for posting how you found the MM Nutrition Facts pdf.  I thought you might have been some kind of computer wizard.  ;D

This thread has taught me a lot about molasses and anything that might be called molasses, but I have a hard time keeping everything straightened out and remembering everything.  Peter tries to keep me in line. 

I agree with you that molasses is like honey, olive oil, tomatoes, and flour.  They all get adulterated.   :(

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #803 on: November 27, 2011, 09:15:04 AM »
Between you and Peter, you have probably cornered the market on knowledge relating to molasses/cane syrup/honey/brown sugar/corn syrup and anything in between.

Gene,

I'm sure that by now Norma and I have put everyone to sleep. They are perhaps all saying "Wake us when it's over" :-D.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #804 on: November 27, 2011, 10:11:00 AM »
I mixed the MM#6 Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation Peter set-forth at Reply 790  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161079.html#msg161079  last evening and then froze the dough ball.  The dough ball was taken out of the freezer this morning to be defrosted over a two day period.  The dough mixed well and the color of the dough looked good.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #805 on: November 27, 2011, 10:11:25 AM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #806 on: November 27, 2011, 08:28:58 PM »
I made a mistake before when I posted that I saw Steen’s cane syrup at my local supermarket.   It was Lyle’s Golden Syrup.  I checked again today and I did post wrong.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #807 on: November 28, 2011, 11:48:36 AM »
Norma,

I hate loose ends so I decided to call Oscar again at Golden Barrel to get clarification on the matter of whether the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses contains blackstrap molasses or not. I mentioned to him that you had been told by someone else at Golden Barrel that there was blackstrap molasses in the product and that the information at Dutch Valley (which, it turns out, is a distributor of many Golden Barrel products: http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/vendors/7889/good-food) also indicates that blackstrap molasses is one of the ingredients in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. I also mentioned that the sugars were listed in the Nutrition facts at 13 grams for a 20-gram serving, which seemed low to me for a pure raw cane syrup. He apparently sensed that maybe he had given me incorrect information when we last spoke. So, he checked with a colleague who told him that there is indeed blackstrap molasses in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. It represents 10% of the product. So, you were right after all.

Since I had Oscar's attention, I decided to also ask him whether Golden Barrel makes a pure raw cane syrup (I did not see it in the Dutch Valley list of Golden Barrel products). He said that he didn't think so but that they could package some pure raw cane syrup if someone wanted it. I asked him what the sugars would come to for such a product and, after doing some calculations, he said 13.4 grams for a 20-21 gram serving (about a tablespoon). When I mentioned that that still seemed to be a bit low for a pure raw cane syrup, he said that the sugars numbers for pure raw cane sugar and molasses in general can vary somewhat based on the particular lot of raw cane from which the cane juice is extracted, weather related conditions and other factors. Plus the numbers are subject to rounding that can make comparisons somewhat more difficult.

Until you make a pizza at market tomorrow using the Golden Barrel dough formulation (MM#6) I came up with we will not know whether you will get the desired degree of sweetness. Blackstrap molasses has the lowest level of sugars of the various forms of molasses but will have the most pronounced (almost bitter) taste of all the molasses forms. The color of the dough and pizza crust/crumb might also be a bit darker but perhaps not greatly so because it is only used at 10%.

So, there you have it.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #808 on: November 28, 2011, 05:32:12 PM »
Norma,

I hate loose ends so I decided to call Oscar again at Golden Barrel to get clarification on the matter of whether the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses contains blackstrap molasses or not. I mentioned to him that you had been told by someone else at Golden Barrel that there was blackstrap molasses in the product and that the information at Dutch Valley (which, it turns out, is a distributor of many Golden Barrel products: http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/vendors/7889/good-food) also indicates that blackstrap molasses is one of the ingredients in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. I also mentioned that the sugars were listed in the Nutrition facts at 13 grams for a 20-gram serving, which seemed low to me for a pure raw cane syrup. He apparently sensed that maybe he had given me incorrect information when we last spoke. So, he checked with a colleague who told him that there is indeed blackstrap molasses in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. It represents 10% of the product. So, you were right after all.

Since I had Oscar's attention, I decided to also ask him whether Golden Barrel makes a pure raw cane syrup (I did not see it in the Dutch Valley list of Golden Barrel products). He said that he didn't think so but that they could package some pure raw cane syrup if someone wanted it. I asked him what the sugars would come to for such a product and, after doing some calculations, he said 13.4 grams for a 20-21 gram serving (about a tablespoon). When I mentioned that that still seemed to be a bit low for a pure raw cane syrup, he said that the sugars numbers for pure raw cane sugar and molasses in general can vary somewhat based on the particular lot of raw cane from which the cane juice is extracted, weather related conditions and other factors. Plus the numbers are subject to rounding that can make comparisons somewhat more difficult.

Until you make a pizza at market tomorrow using the Golden Barrel dough formulation (MM#6) I came up with we will not know whether you will get the desired degree of sweetness. Blackstrap molasses has the lowest level of sugars of the various forms of molasses but will have the most pronounced (almost bitter) taste of all the molasses forms. The color of the dough and pizza crust/crumb might also be a bit darker but perhaps not greatly so because it is only used at 10%.

So, there you have it.

Peter


Peter,

It is good to hear you called Oscar again and found out there is 10% blackstrap molasses in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses.  You are always good at being able to talk technically to another technical person.  It is interesting that Oscar said that pure raw cane syrup only contained 13.4 grams of sugars for a 20-21 gram serving, even if other factors are considered.  That seems a bit low to me too.  I think I remember when I was at the supermarket yesterday that Lyles golden syrup has 17 grams of sugar (but that is a lighter product), but I don’t remember for what grams of serving that was for.  I could be wrong on the sugar number though. 

I really don’t think there will be any sweetness in the crust tomorrow, but will wait and see.  I could be wrong on that too.  The color of the dough ball didn’t look out of line with some of my other experiments on this thread, and today the color of the MM clone dough ball looked okay to me. 

Where do you think all this leads us to?  I will think MM has to be adding some other kind of sweetener to make their crust have a sweet taste.  Just from seeing different products if they can be all called “molasses”, they all really don’t have that much sugars in them. 

You also have your experimental dough to try out.  I will be interested in how that turn out.

Norma


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #809 on: November 28, 2011, 08:24:45 PM »
I really don’t think there will be any sweetness in the crust tomorrow, but will wait and see.  I could be wrong on that too.

Norma,

I took the amount of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses in the MM#6 formulation I gave you and calculated a sucrose equivalency of the constituent sugars in the Golden Supreme Baking Molasses (sucrose, fructose and glucose). The purpose of the exercise was to arrive at an overall sweetness value in relation to sucrose, or ordinary table sugar. The value I got was 6.6%. That would be like saying that you used 6.6% table sugar in your MM#6 dough instead of the Golden Barrel Supreme Mixing Molasses. If my calculation is correct, the question becomes whether you will be able to taste sweetness in a crust with 6.6% sucrose equivalency. I did a similar calculation but with the assumption that the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses was 100% pure cane syrup, which was the assumption I was laboring under untill I spoke with Oscar today, and the sucrose equivalency value is 7.7%.  

For comparison purposes, I did a similar calculation for the recent MM clone dough formulation with 5.5% Steen's 100% pure cane syrup and 6% Grandma's Original molasses and got a sucrose equivalency of 8.13%. As you may recall, I clearly detected sweetness in the finished crust with that particular combination of sweeteners. The corresponding value for my most recent MM clone dough formulation, with 11.3% Grandma's Original molasses, is 7.9%. Unless there is something really unique about the Steen's product, I would expect to detect sweetness in the crust that is made with the formulation. But, like you, I will have to await the actual results. I have moved the latest dough ball from the freezer to the refrigerator compartment and plan to make the pizza on Wednesday.

I also went back to the MM clone dough formulation where I used 6% honey and 7% Grandma's Original molasses, and the sucrose equivalency I calculated is 7.7%. That combination also produced detectible sweetness in the finished crust.

The above calculations were based on the percents given for molasses and honey at the bottom of November's post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1272.msg31890/topicseen.html#msg31890, and also the relative sweetness data given at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png. No doubt there are nuances of the various sweeteners that can't be captured by my calculations but I wouldn't know how to account for them. Remember, also, that part of our experiments is to determine if salt levels affect the sensation of sweetness.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #810 on: November 28, 2011, 09:06:44 PM »
Norma,

I took the amount of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses in the MM#6 formulation I gave you and calculated a sucrose equivalency of the constituent sugars in the Golden Supreme Baking Molasses (sucrose, fructose and glucose). The purpose of the exercise was to arrive at an overall sweetness value in relation to sucrose, or ordinary table sugar. The value I got was 6.6%. That would be like saying that you used 6.6% table sugar in your MM#6 dough instead of the Golden Barrel Supreme Mixing Molasses. If my calculation is correct, the question becomes whether you will be able to taste sweetness in a crust with 6.6% sucrose equivalency. I did a similar calculation but with the assumption that the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses was 100% pure cane syrup, which was the assumption I was laboring under untill I spoke with Oscar today, and the sucrose equivalency value is 7.7%.  

For comparison purposes, I did a similar calculation for the recent MM clone dough formulation with 5.5% Steen's 100% pure cane syrup and 6% Grandma's Original molasses and got a sucrose equivalency of 8.13%. As you may recall, I clearly detected sweetness in the finished crust with that particular combination of sweeteners. The corresponding value for my most recent MM clone dough formulation, with 11.3% Grandma's Original molasses, is 7.9%. Unless there is something really unique about the Steen's product, I would expect to detect sweetness in the crust that is made with the formulation. But, like you, I will have to await the actual results. I have moved the latest dough ball from the freezer to the refrigerator compartment and plan to make the pizza on Wednesday.

I also went back to the MM clone dough formulation where I used 6% honey and 7% Grandma's Original molasses, and the sucrose equivalency I calculated is 7.7%. That combination also produced detectible sweetness in the finished crust.

The above calculations were based on the percents given for molasses and honey at the bottom of November's post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1272.msg31890/topicseen.html#msg31890, and also the relative sweetness data given at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png. No doubt there are nuances of the various sweeteners that can't be captured by my calculations but I wouldn't know how to account for them. Remember, also, that part of our experiments is to determine if salt levels affect the sensation of sweetness.

Peter

Peter,

Since I can’t figure out the sucrose equivalency of the constituent sugars in the Golden Supreme Baking Molasses, (sucrose, fructose and glucose) it makes more sense now that you explained to me that the purpose of this exercise was to arrive at an overall sweetness value in relation to sucrose.  I didn’t know it would be like saying I used 6.6% table sugar in the MM#6  clone dough instead of Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. 

I also understand more now about your MM clone dough formulation with 5.5% Steen’s 100% pure cane syrup and 6% Grandma’s Original molasses.  I do recall, you clearly detected sweetness in the finished crust with that combination of sweeteners.

Maybe I was a little dense in understanding what was going on.  All I looked at was the total sugars and couldn’t understand anything beyond that.  Your explanations were helpful.  November and you are way over my head in knowledge, but at least I understand more now.

I remember the purpose of our experiments is if salt levels affect the sensation of sweetness.

Sorry, to make you explain so much.  I should have known you know what you are doing, when figuring out how everything fits for sweetness.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #811 on: November 29, 2011, 09:48:45 AM »
Sorry, to make you explain so much.  I should have known you know what you are doing, when figuring out how everything fits for sweetness.

Norma,

Actually, I am glad that you raised the issue of sweetness. I had never done any sucrose equivalency calculations before although I had kicked around the thought several times before especially since everyone can relate to the sweetness that sucrose imparts to things. I'm not sure whether sucrose equivalency is a good tool but it might allow us to compare different kinds and quantities of sweeteners and sweetener combinations in the same language (sucrose). I suspect that there are also other factors like ash content and the different fermentation rates of different kinds of sweeteners that might affect residual sugars and the final sweetness and taste of the finished crust. There is also conversion of starch to sugars that can affect residual sugar levels. It perhaps helps that the MM clone doughs are frozen and even after defrosting and tempering at room temperature don't get a great deal of fermentation. That might allow more of the added sweeteners to remain as residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #812 on: November 29, 2011, 09:11:20 PM »
Norma,

Actually, I am glad that you raised the issue of sweetness. I had never done any sucrose equivalency calculations before although I had kicked around the thought several times before especially since everyone can relate to the sweetness that sucrose imparts to things. I'm not sure whether sucrose equivalency is a good tool but it might allow us to compare different kinds and quantities of sweeteners and sweetener combinations in the same language (sucrose). I suspect that there are also other factors like ash content and the different fermentation rates of different kinds of sweeteners that might affect residual sugars and the final sweetness and taste of the finished crust. There is also conversion of starch to sugars that can affect residual sugar levels. It perhaps helps that the MM clone doughs are frozen and even after defrosting and tempering at room temperature don't get a great deal of fermentation. That might allow more of the added sweeteners to remain as residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad that you don’t get upset with me for asking so many questions, and then having to find links to explain things to me.  I didn’t know you never did any sucrose equivalency calculations before.  How sucrose imparts things is very interesting.  I have no idea if the sucrose equivalency is a good tool, but I am sure you will somehow figure out to use that tool to your advantage in understanding more.  I know there also a conversion of starch to sugars that can affect residual sugar levels.  I also think it perhaps helps that the MM clone doughs are frozen and even after defrosting and tempering at room temperature the dough ball really doesn’t get a lot of fermentation.  It could mean that that might allow the added sweeteners to remain as residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #813 on: November 29, 2011, 09:15:10 PM »
Peter,

I want to thank you for setting-forth the MM# 6 clone formulation, and my doubting that using the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses alone, with a lower salt percent, wouldn’t give any sweet taste in the crust.  The MM # 6 clone formulation was everything I was looking for.  ;D The taste of the crust had the right amount of sweetness that I had tasted in the real MM crust I had eaten in Washington DC.  The texture of the crumb was very good, there was a big rim, and the bottom crust browned well, without a screen.  The dough ball opened well, could be tossed well, and there weren’t any problems with the dough, bake, or final MM clone pizza.

I applaud you for doing the test to find out if less salt would give more sweetness.  :chef: That was a very good thinking on your part to even try an experiment like you did.

The dough ball sat out at room temperature for 4 hrs., without much of any noticeable rise or fermentation.

I don’t know if you want me to try any tweaks to this formula, but I am more than satisfied with the formulation.  Steve, Randy, and my other taste testers also though this MM clone pie was the best. 

Thanks so much!  This event calls for a celebration on all the hard work you did on this thread, and helping me and the other members.  :chef: :pizza:

I have two slices I saved to reheat.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #814 on: November 29, 2011, 09:16:32 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #815 on: November 29, 2011, 09:17:16 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #816 on: November 29, 2011, 09:19:49 PM »
Norma


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #817 on: November 29, 2011, 09:21:22 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #818 on: November 29, 2011, 09:23:06 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #819 on: November 29, 2011, 09:24:38 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #820 on: November 29, 2011, 09:26:33 PM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #821 on: November 29, 2011, 09:43:34 PM »
Wow, Norma... That last crumb shot looks exactly like the dough that I remember from the mellow mushroom. I ate at one a few years ago in Asheville NC. Nailed it! The dough has the right color, and while I can't sink my teeth in it from up here in NH, looks like you got the texture right. Good job to all who have labored on this clone.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #822 on: November 29, 2011, 10:45:29 PM »
Wow, Norma... That last crumb shot looks exactly like the dough that I remember from the mellow mushroom. I ate at one a few years ago in Asheville NC. Nailed it! The dough has the right color, and while I can't sink my teeth in it from up here in NH, looks like you got the texture right. Good job to all who have labored on this clone.

cosgrojo,

Glad to hear the crumb shot looks exactly like the dough that you remember from Mellow Mushroom.  :) I thought the MM clone attempt today did taste like a MM pizza.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #823 on: November 30, 2011, 10:23:38 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad that the MM#6 clone dough formulation with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses worked out so well for you. It sounds like you hit a home run. If you decide to sell MM clone pizzas at market, it will be interesting to see how your customers react to them, especially since there are no Mellow Mushroom stores in Pennsylvania where they might have had MM pizzas before and know what to expect. I can see it now: Norma's MM Pizza Clones (you can whisper in the ears of your customers what the "MM" stands for).

There are a couple of notable aspects of your recent results that I think bear mentioning and discussing:

First, it is possible that MM is using a product like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. If so, and especially with the word "molasses" on their containers as received from their supplier, they perhaps could legitimately refer to the product as molasses, even though it is mostly pure cane syrup. It is also possible that MM is using a 100% pure cane syrup, such as the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, and maybe even a product like the Grandma's Original molasses. Steen's does not call its product "molasses", as does Grandma's, but both products seem to be equivalent to the "open kettle" molasses that smaller producers make and call "molasses". As you know, my last experiment using a combination of Steen's and Grandma's Original Molasses did produce noticeable sweetness although the salt level (more on this below) was reduced from prior experiments. I can even conceive of the possibility that the Steen's or the Grandma's Original molasses being combined with another molasses product, including a small amount of blackstrap molasses. The good news for home pizza makers is that all three of the above products can be purchased at the retail level, either in selected stores or by mail order. Golden Barrel also sells their Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses at their website at http://www.goldenbarrel.com/blackstrap-baking-molasses.php.

Second, while the reduced salt level may have played a role in getting the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust, it may be necessary to conduct a further experiment with the previous level of salt that we were using--around 2% or maybe even a bit higher. It is possible, for example, that the sweetness of the crust that you detected was due solely, or principally, to the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and not to the reduced salt level. The only way to know for sure is to repeat the MM#6 clone dough formulation but keep everything the same but for the salt, which would be at around 2% or maybe even a bit more (but not so much as to make the crust too salty and unenjoyable).

You might be interested in knowing that after I posted on my recent simple kitchen salt/molasses experiment, I recalled a couple of instances where the salt/sugar matter was discussed or where I thought that the salt level may have affected sweetness. The first instance involved the salt/sugar relationship and the proper balance of salt and sugar in a Papa John's clone sauce that I devised solely by taste based on a PJ sauce ingredients list. You can read about that example, and the interesting an informative exchange I had with member November on the subject, at Replies 1-4 and Replies 10-12, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg56932.html#msg56932. November even went so far as to set forth a typical ratio of sugar and salt (about 5.9 to 1, in Reply 11) to achieve a balanced condition in the sauce. Out of curiosity, I calculated the same ratio of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and salt for the MM#6 clone dough formulation and it is 5.6 to 1 (this is after deducting the weight of water in the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses). Of course, the ratios may mean different things in a sauce as opposed to a dough, but the relationship is something that might be considered when one is making a sauce or a pizza dough.

The second example involves a clone of a Papa John's dough that member Randy came up with, and which I described in the opening post in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. You will note that the dough formulation I posted there has a total of 9.8% sweeteners (5.3% raw sugar and 4.5% honey, both of which have above average sweetness). Yet, as you will note from the last paragraph of that post, I made the observation that the crust of the finished pizza did not strike me as being sweet. Instead, I attributed the deficiency of sweetness to other ingredients masking the sweetness. But, if you go back to the formulation, you will see that it includes 3.3% salt, which is far in excess of what most pizza doughs use. It is hard to say that it was the high salt level that was the culprit after all, but it may have played a material role in masking at least some of the sweetness.

As for possible tweaks to the MM#6 clone dough formulation, I'd rather wait for the time being pending the results of my most recent experiment with all Grandma's Original molasses and the even further reduced salt level. But one tweak that does occur to me is to reconsider using some wheat germ in the dough. I have read reports from time to time where diners at MM units complained that they liked the early MM pizzas better than the more recent ones. The amount of wheat germ, which has natural Vitamin E or its equivalent, might be quite small, maybe an amount that is equivalent to the amount of wheat germ normally found in flour before milling to make white flour, which is only a few percent.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 08:09:19 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #824 on: December 01, 2011, 09:49:23 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad that the MM#6 clone dough formulation with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses worked out so well for you. It sounds like you hit a home run. If you decide to sell MM clone pizzas at market, it will be interesting to see how your customers react to them, especially since there are no Mellow Mushroom stores in Pennsylvania where they might have had MM pizzas before and know what to expect. I can see it now: Norma's MM Pizza Clones (you can whisper in the ears of your customers what the "MM" stands for).

There are a couple of notable aspects of your recent results that I think bear mentioning and discussing:

First, it is possible that MM is using a product like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. If so, and especially with the word "molasses" on their containers as received from their supplier, they perhaps could legitimately refer to the product as molasses, even though it is mostly pure cane syrup. It is also possible that MM is using a 100% pure cane syrup, such as the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, and maybe even a product like the Grandma's Original molasses. Steen's does not call its product "molasses", as does Grandma's, but both products seem to be equivalent to the "open kettle" molasses that smaller producers make and call "molasses". As you know, my last experiment using a combination of Steen's and Grandma's Original Molasses did produce noticeable sweetness although the salt level (more on this below) was reduced from prior experiments. I can even conceive of the possibility that the Steen's or the Grandma's Original molasses being combined with another molasses product, including a small amount of blackstrap molasses. The good news for home pizza makers is that all three of the above products can be purchased at the retail level, either in selected stores or by mail order. Golden Barrel also sells their Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses at their website at http://www.goldenbarrel.com/blackstrap-baking-molasses.php.

Second, while the reduced salt level may have played a role in getting the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust, it may be necessary to conduct a further experiment with the previous level of salt that we were using--around 2% or maybe even a bit higher. It is possible, for example, that the sweetness of the crust that you detected was due solely, or principally, to the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and not to the reduced salt level. The only way to know for sure is to repeat the MM#6 clone dough formulation but keep everything the same but for the salt, which would be at around 2% or maybe even a bit more (but not so much as to make the crust too salty and unenjoyable).

You might be interested in knowing that after I posted on my recent simple kitchen salt/molasses experiment, I recalled a couple of instances where the salt/sugar matter was discussed or where I thought that the salt level may have affected sweetness. The first instance involved the salt/sugar relationship and the proper balance of salt and sugar in a Papa John's clone sauce that I devised solely by taste based on a PJ sauce ingredients list. You can read about that example, and the interesting an informative exchange I had with member November on the subject, at Replies 1-4 and Replies 10-12, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg56932.html#msg56932. November even went so far as to set forth a typical ratio of sugar and salt (about 5.9 to 1, in Reply 11) to achieve a balanced condition in the sauce. Out of curiosity, I calculated the same ratio of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and salt for the MM#6 clone dough formulation and it is 5.6 to 1 (this is after deducting the weight of water in the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses). Of course, the ratios may mean different things in a sauce as opposed to a dough, but the relationship is something that might be considered when one is making a sauce or a pizza dough.

The second example involves a clone of a Papa John's dough that member Randy came up with, and which I described in the opening post in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. You will note that the dough formulation I posted there has a total of 9.8% sweeteners (5.3% raw sugar and 4.5% honey, both of which have above average sweetness). Yet, as you will note from the last paragraph of that post, I made the observation that the crust of the finished pizza did not strike me as being sweet. Instead, I attributed the deficiency of sweetness to other ingredients masking the sweetness. But, if you go back to the formulation, you will see that it includes 3.3% salt, which is far in excess of what most pizza doughs use. It is hard to say that it was the high salt level that was the culprit after all, but it may have played a material role in masking at least some of the sweetness.

As for possible tweaks to the MM#6 clone dough formulation, I'd rather wait for the time being pending the results of my most recent experiment with all Grandma's Original molasses and the even further reduced salt level. But one tweak that does occur to me is to reconsider using some wheat germ in the dough. I have read reports from time to time where diners at MM units complained that they liked the early MM pizzas better than the more recent ones. The amount of wheat germ, which has natural Vitamin E or its equivalent, might be quite small, maybe an amount that is equivalent to the amount of wheat germ normally found in flour before milling to make white flour, which is only a few percent.

Peter

Peter,

I am also glad the MM#6 clone dough formulation with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses turned out so well.  Without your help, it wouldn’t have been possible.  I also think it will be interesting to see how customers react to a MM clone pizza.  Lol, “you can see it now“, had me chuckling!  :-D

I also thought it was interesting that it now is possible that MM might be using a product like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses.  I never would have thought as “molasses” before with cane syrup as the first ingredient.  Your idea that MM could be using a product with 100% pure cane syrup, with a product such as Grandma’s could also work.  I also think both products could be equivalent to “open kettle” molasses that smaller producers make and call “molasses”.  After my experiment with the Grandma’s Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, I also could understand blackstrap molasses could also be added to another product to be able to make a MM clone.  I also think the good news is anyone that wants to try and make a MM clone pizza can benefit from your and my experiments, and can buy the products in their supermarkets or online. 

I was interested in knowing that after your recent simple kitchen salt/molasses experiments. Your recalling a couple of instances where the salt/sugar matter was discussed or where you thought that the salt level may have affected sweetness, was also good. Those references were very interesting.

I will wait until you post about your recent MM clone experiment to see if you want me to do more experiments.  Will be waiting to hear how that experiment goes.

I have also read where customers said the original MM pizzas were better.

Norma


 

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