Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 225780 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #825 on: December 01, 2011, 11:15:36 AM »
Norma,

I knew you were going to be away from the forum for a while, so I decided to await your return in case you had any other questions. Also, in the meantime, I did make the pizza using my most recent dough. That is the dough with 11.3% Grandma's Original molasses all by itself with no secondary sweetener. I also reduced the salt level for that dough to 1.5%, as an additional test to see if that would help create a greater sensation of sweetness. The formula hydration I used was 51% (with an "adjusted" hydration of 53.5% and an "effective" hydration of 56%). As reported previously in Reply 809 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161320.html#msg161320, the "sucrose equivalency" was 7.9%. The preparation and management of the dough was the same as I used for my last MM clone pizza experiment.

I am happy to report that the pizza made with the abovementioned formulation had a nice amount of sweetness. Moreover, it was a "clean" taste. Usually, 1.5% salt strikes me as being a bit bland, which is why I usually go with about 1.75-2% salt, but I did not get a sensation of blandness at all with the latest pizza. It is as though the smaller amount of salt liberated the rest of the flavors in the crust so that they could come to the forefront of my palate as I bit into the crust. That is what I mean about a "clean" taste. Based on this experience, I am going to think more carefully in the future on how much salt to use in my doughs, and most certainly those that contain a lot of sweeteners. That said, however, I think it makes sense to try an MM clone dough with around 2% salt, or maybe a bit more, to see if it was the low salt level that was primarily responsible for the increased sensation of sweetness rather than the large amount of Grandma's Original molasses I used. I'd also like to try using the Steen's product alone. But, all of the above notwithstanding, we have demonstrated that it is not necessary to use a secondary sweetener. That was a barrier that we couldn't break through before. So, using a molasses product alone, or a combination of such products, will work. That doesn't mean that one should necessarily give up on using multiple sweeteners, such as a molasses product and something like honey or raw cane sugar or even brown sugar. Such combinations might not pass muster at MM but they can produce pretty good pizzas, for some maybe even better than those sold by MM in its stores.

I think that someone using the MM#6 clone formulation I gave you with a good unbleached, nonbromated high-gluten flour, with or without a small amount of added wheat germ, a thickness factor of 0.118684 (for a 14" pizza), and a modest amount of salt, should be able to produce a pretty good MM clone pizza. For those who want to make a 10" MM clone or a 16" MM clone, they should use the thickness factors recited in Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151482.html#msg151482.

For my next MM clone experiment, I think I will try using the Steen's all by itself, along with 1.5% salt. I may also add a bit of wheat germ. I'd also like to play around with the oven part of the equation to see if I can approximate the bake time of a real MM pizza. The bake time can affect the way that the crust coloration develops and also the caramelization of sugars. It can also affect the dryness of the crust and crumb and, hence, their textural characteristics.

In your case, I am not sure that there is much to suggest as a future experiment. One possibility is to try another flour, one with somewhat lower protein content than the KASL, even if it a bromated flour. The expression "high-gluten flour" is often loosely bandied about. We tend to think of it as a flour with around 14% protein. However, as the article on flour at http://web.archive.org/web/20060507221142/http://kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour+Guide.pdf notes at page 4, the range of high-gluten flour can be between 13-14.2%. No doubt the high-gluten flours that were available back in 1974 when the founders of MM started the company were different than the current lineup of high-gluten flours. I have discovered that trying to determine the protein content of a given flour from just Nutrition Facts is very difficult, or at least I haven't figured out a way of doing it, especially since the rounding of numbers in Nutrition Facts can cause fairly wide swings in the calculations.

If you would like to propose some other MM clone experiment to try and need my help, let me know.

Peter



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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #826 on: December 01, 2011, 01:04:55 PM »
Steen's does not call its product "molasses", as does Grandma's, but both products seem to be equivalent to the "open kettle" molasses that smaller producers make and call "molasses".

Norma,

I happened to take a close look at the Steen's bottle today and it says that the 100% pure cane syrup is an "open kettle" product. After looking at the label more closely, I concluded that I did not know certain things about the product that I felt would be useful if I were to use the Steen's in an MM clone dough, specifically, the amount of water in the product and the simple sugars by percent. So, I decided to call Steen's, where I was referred to Narris Duchon (pronounced Doo-yon). We had a very nice chat about their products and how they relate to other similar products that are called "molasses". Unfortunately, Narris did not recall the percents of sugars in their products (he said a laboratory test would have to be conducted) and he did not know offhand the water content of their 100% Pure Cane Syrup. However, he gave me the Brix number (75.6) and also a typical Brix number (79.5) for molasses. From those numbers, it looks like the water content of the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup is around 23%, or a bit higher than standard molasses. Since Narris could not recall the percents of simple sugars in the 100% pure cane syrup, I asked him if he could tell me where it might show up on the sweetness scale relative to sucrose, which is usually 100 on that scale. He pondered the question for several seconds as he thought about it and then said that their cane syrup would be about 80% as sweet as sucrose. Based on the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, that would place their product a bit above glucose (74.3). The 80% number is what I will use for "sucrose equivalency" purposes to calculate how much of it to use in my next pizza dough with the Steen's cane syrup.

I also asked Narris why they don't call their pure cane syrup molasses, since that is what others with similar products, including Grandma's and small producers, do. He said that they boil their cane syrup a bit longer, making it a bit sweeter than a product like Grandma's Original molasses (I believe that the inversion of sucrose is the cause) but not with quite the same "tang" as the Grandma's Original molasses, to use his description. He added that their Steen's Dark Molasses, which is shown at http://www.steensyrup.com/molasses.html, is actually closer to the Grandma's Original molasses than the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup. I have not seen the Steen's Dark Molasses in the stores near me but it can be ordered from the Steen's website for those who are interested in that product.

I also learned that Steen's does not do any processing of raw cane in making their products. They used to do that years ago, but the production of raw cane syrup has been a declining business. These days, Steen's gets cane juice from Dominos and processes that juice into syrup. The syrup is then bottled or canned and sold mostly at retail. Steen's could sell to someone with a need for a lot of their product but I was told that it would depend on how much of the product would be needed.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #827 on: December 01, 2011, 04:11:51 PM »
Norma,

I knew you were going to be away from the forum for a while, so I decided to await your return in case you had any other questions. Also, in the meantime, I did make the pizza using my most recent dough. That is the dough with 11.3% Grandma's Original molasses all by itself with no secondary sweetener. I also reduced the salt level for that dough to 1.5%, as an additional test to see if that would help create a greater sensation of sweetness. The formula hydration I used was 51% (with an "adjusted" hydration of 53.5% and an "effective" hydration of 56%). As reported previously in Reply 809 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161320.html#msg161320, the "sucrose equivalency" was 7.9%. The preparation and management of the dough was the same as I used for my last MM clone pizza experiment.

I am happy to report that the pizza made with the abovementioned formulation had a nice amount of sweetness. Moreover, it was a "clean" taste. Usually, 1.5% salt strikes me as being a bit bland, which is why I usually go with about 1.75-2% salt, but I did not get a sensation of blandness at all with the latest pizza. It is as though the smaller amount of salt liberated the rest of the flavors in the crust so that they could come to the forefront of my palate as I bit into the crust. That is what I mean about a "clean" taste. Based on this experience, I am going to think more carefully in the future on how much salt to use in my doughs, and most certainly those that contain a lot of sweeteners. That said, however, I think it makes sense to try an MM clone dough with around 2% salt, or maybe a bit more, to see if it was the low salt level that was primarily responsible for the increased sensation of sweetness rather than the large amount of Grandma's Original molasses I used. I'd also like to try using the Steen's product alone. But, all of the above notwithstanding, we have demonstrated that it is not necessary to use a secondary sweetener. That was a barrier that we couldn't break through before. So, using a molasses product alone, or a combination of such products, will work. That doesn't mean that one should necessarily give up on using multiple sweeteners, such as a molasses product and something like honey or raw cane sugar or even brown sugar. Such combinations might not pass muster at MM but they can produce pretty good pizzas, for some maybe even better than those sold by MM in its stores.

I think that someone using the MM#6 clone formulation I gave you with a good unbleached, nonbromated high-gluten flour, with or without a small amount of added wheat germ, a thickness factor of 0.118684 (for a 14" pizza), and a modest amount of salt, should be able to produce a pretty good MM clone pizza. For those who want to make a 10" MM clone or a 16" MM clone, they should use the thickness factors recited in Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151482.html#msg151482.

For my next MM clone experiment, I think I will try using the Steen's all by itself, along with 1.5% salt. I may also add a bit of wheat germ. I'd also like to play around with the oven part of the equation to see if I can approximate the bake time of a real MM pizza. The bake time can affect the way that the crust coloration develops and also the caramelization of sugars. It can also affect the dryness of the crust and crumb and, hence, their textural characteristics.

In your case, I am not sure that there is much to suggest as a future experiment. One possibility is to try another flour, one with somewhat lower protein content than the KASL, even if it a bromated flour. The expression "high-gluten flour" is often loosely bandied about. We tend to think of it as a flour with around 14% protein. However, as the article on flour at http://web.archive.org/web/20060507221142/http://kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour+Guide.pdf notes at page 4, the range of high-gluten flour can be between 13-14.2%. No doubt the high-gluten flours that were available back in 1974 when the founders of MM started the company were different than the current lineup of high-gluten flours. I have discovered that trying to determine the protein content of a given flour from just Nutrition Facts is very difficult, or at least I haven't figured out a way of doing it, especially since the rounding of numbers in Nutrition Facts can cause fairly wide swings in the calculations.

If you would like to propose some other MM clone experiment to try and need my help, let me know.

Peter



Peter,

I am glad to hear your recent formulation with 11.3% Grandma’s Original molasses all by itself did have a nice amount of sweetness in the crust.  Interesting to hear you said it also was a “clean” taste.  Steve, Randy, and I also noticed that in my last attempt with the MM#6 clone dough formulation you set-forth.  You are probably right that the “clean” taste with less salt in the formula, was responsible for liberating the rest of the flavors in the crust,  Yes, I do agree, that we have demonstrated that it is not necessary to use a secondary sweetener for a MM clone pizza.  That is finally resolved.

I will be interested in seeing how your next MM’s clone dough formulation with Steen’s product all by itself, along with 1.5% salt will turn out. 

I can try out a lower protein flour with or without VWG for my next experiment.  I would also think when MM started there weren’t as many flours to choose from.  Thanks for the link to the article about flour from King Arthur, from the wayback machine. 

I would need your help with what flour to choose and formulation for another attempt at a MM’s clone if you don’t mind. 

Norma,

I happened to take a close look at the Steen's bottle today and it says that the 100% pure cane syrup is an "open kettle" product. After looking at the label more closely, I concluded that I did not know certain things about the product that I felt would be useful if I were to use the Steen's in an MM clone dough, specifically, the amount of water in the product and the simple sugars by percent. So, I decided to call Steen's, where I was referred to Narris Duchon (pronounced Doo-yon). We had a very nice chat about their products and how they relate to other similar products that are called "molasses". Unfortunately, Narris did not recall the percents of sugars in their products (he said a laboratory test would have to be conducted) and he did not know offhand the water content of their 100% Pure Cane Syrup. However, he gave me the Brix number (75.6) and also a typical Brix number (79.5) for molasses. From those numbers, it looks like the water content of the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup is around 23%, or a bit higher than standard molasses. Since Narris could not recall the percents of simple sugars in the 100% pure cane syrup, I asked him if he could tell me where it might show up on the sweetness scale relative to sucrose, which is usually 100 on that scale. He pondered the question for several seconds as he thought about it and then said that their cane syrup would be about 80% as sweet as sucrose. Based on the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, that would place their product a bit above glucose (74.3). The 80% number is what I will use for "sucrose equivalency" purposes to calculate how much of it to use in my next pizza dough with the Steen's cane syrup.

I also asked Narris why they don't call their pure cane syrup molasses, since that is what others with similar products, including Grandma's and small producers, do. He said that they boil their cane syrup a bit longer, making it a bit sweeter than a product like Grandma's Original molasses (I believe that the inversion of sucrose is the cause) but not with quite the same "tang" as the Grandma's Original molasses, to use his description. He added that their Steen's Dark Molasses, which is shown at http://www.steensyrup.com/molasses.html, is actually closer to the Grandma's Original molasses than the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup. I have not seen the Steen's Dark Molasses in the stores near me but it can be ordered from the Steen's website for those who are interested in that product.

I also learned that Steen's does not do any processing of raw cane in making their products. They used to do that years ago, but the production of raw cane syrup has been a declining business. These days, Steen's gets cane juice from Dominos and processes that juice into syrup. The syrup is then bottled or canned and sold mostly at retail. Steen's could sell to someone with a need for a lot of their product but I was told that it would depend on how much of the product would be needed.

Peter

Interesting to hear that the Steen’s 100% pure cane syrup is an “open kettle” product.  I see the numbers for the water content of the Steen’s 100% pure cane syrup is a bit higher.  I see Narris Duchon did help you with where their product would relate to sucrose.  You learned a lot of interesting information from Narris.  I wonder if my Golden Granulated Evaorated Cane Juice Syrup form Domino is anything like the cane juice Steen’s gets from Domino.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #828 on: December 01, 2011, 09:10:30 PM »
I would need your help with what flour to choose and formulation for another attempt at a MM’s clone if you don’t mind. 

Norma,

I don't mind at all. Can you tell me what high-protein flours you have on hand? And is there a particular molasses or cane syrup product that you would like to use?

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #829 on: December 01, 2011, 09:20:26 PM »
Norma,

I don't mind at all. Can you tell me what high-protein flours you have on hand? And is there a particular molasses or cane syrup product that you would like to use?

Peter

It gets "sticky" for me to understand what really are high protein flours, except for high-gluten flours.  Do you want me to list what high-gluten flours I have on hand, or possibly also other high protein flours?  I am going to the restaurant store tomorrow and might pick up a bag of the Commander Flour. 

It doesn’t really matter to me what molasses or combinations of molasses products I try. 

I appreciate your help! 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #830 on: December 01, 2011, 09:44:51 PM »
Norma,

I was thinking mostly of high-gluten flours with a protein content of more than 13%. If in doubt, please tell me what you have and I will try to determine the protein content.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #831 on: December 02, 2011, 07:32:24 AM »
Norma,

I was thinking mostly of high-gluten flours with a protein content of more than 13%. If in doubt, please tell me what you have and I will try to determine the protein content.

Peter

Peter,

The high-gluten flours I have on hand are KASL, Kyrol, ADM Gigantic High-Gluten Flour, and PFM Power Flour.  The flours I am not sure of are the Superlative flour, Mondako, and Better for Bread flour. 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #832 on: December 02, 2011, 08:56:26 AM »
The high-gluten flours I have on hand are KASL, Kyrol, ADM Gigantic High-Gluten Flour, and PFM Power Flour.  The flours I am not sure of are the Superlative flour, Mondako, and Better for Bread flour. 

Norma,

The last three flours you mentioned are below 13% in protein content. Leaving out the KASL that you have been using, that leaves us with the Kyrol, ADM Gigantic and the Pendleton Power flour. Of these, I think I would go with the PFM Power flour. It is at 13.5% protein, which is about the value I was looking for. Moreover, as you can see from the Pendleton mill location map at http://www.pfmills.com/mill-locations-pages-19.php, there are two mills in Georgia and a few others in adjoining states. One or more of those mills are the Milner Milling mills. As I understand it, Milner Milling is a private company that acquired Pendleton in 2001 and, in turn, is owned by Southeastern Mills (http://www.semills.com/CMFiles/Docs/SEM%20Timeline.pdf). Southeastern Mills has a mill in Rome, Georgia (http://www.semills.com/first-avenue-location.aspx) that appears to have been established in 1972, or a couple of years before MM was founded. That mill produces flours but I don't know if that mill produces the Power flour, or any other high-gluten flours for that matter. But maybe there is or was a connection between MM and Southeastern Mills. This is a matter that might be explored further but for now I think I would go with the Power flour. Maybe you have mentioned this before but do you have the unbleached or bleached form of the flour?

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #833 on: December 02, 2011, 09:50:17 AM »
Norma,

The last three flours you mentioned are below 13% in protein content. Leaving out the KASL that you have been using, that leaves us with the Kyrol, ADM Gigantic and the Pendleton Power flour. Of these, I think I would go with the PFM Power flour. It is at 13.5% protein, which is about the value I was looking for. Moreover, as you can see from the Pendleton mill location map at http://www.pfmills.com/mill-locations-pages-19.php, there are two mills in Georgia and a few others in adjoining states. One or more of those mills are the Milner Milling mills. As I understand it, Milner Milling is a private company that acquired Pendleton in 2001 and, in turn, is owned by Southeastern Mills (http://www.semills.com/CMFiles/Docs/SEM%20Timeline.pdf). Southeastern Mills has a mill in Rome, Georgia (http://www.semills.com/first-avenue-location.aspx) that appears to have been established in 1972, or a couple of years before MM was founded. That mill produces flours but I don't know if that mill produces the Power flour, or any other high-gluten flours for that matter. But maybe there is or was a connection between MM and Southeastern Mills. This is a matter that might be explored further but for now I think I would go with the Power flour. Maybe you have mentioned this before but do you have the unbleached or bleached form of the flour?

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t know from the map of Pendleton mills locations, that one or more of those mills are the Milner Milling Mills.  I also didn’t know that Milner Milling is a private company that acquired Pendleton in 2001 and, in turn, is owned by Southeaster Mills.  That was good searching on your part if it appears it was established in 1972, or a couple years before MM was founded.  You may be right that there may be a connection between MM and Southeastern Mills.

The PFM Power flour I have is unbleached.

Norma


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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #834 on: December 02, 2011, 04:03:45 PM »
Norma,

In order to keep the variables under control, for the next dough formulation for you to try I suggest that you use the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses again. I also propose to decrease the amount of salt to 1.50%, just as I did for my last MM clone dough formulation. For the flour, you should try the Pendleton Power flour. With the foregoing changes, the MM clone dough formulation (MM#7) looks like this:

MM#7-Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation With Pendleton Power Flour
Pendleton Power Flour (100%):
Water (Spring Water) (51%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (Table Salt) (1.50%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.46%):
Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses (11.5%):
Total (167.06%):
314.69 g  |  11.1 oz | 0.69 lbs
160.49 g  |  5.66 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.89 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
4.72 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
7.74 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
36.19 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.43 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
525.72 g | 18.54 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.1204643
Note: Dough is for a single 14” pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.118684; “adjusted” hydration = 53.3%; “effective” hydration = 55.8%; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #835 on: December 02, 2011, 05:48:56 PM »
Norma,

In order to keep the variables under control, for the next dough formulation for you to try I suggest that you use the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses again. I also propose to decrease the amount of salt to 1.50%, just as I did for my last MM clone dough formulation. For the flour, you should try the Pendleton Power flour. With the foregoing changes, the MM clone dough formulation (MM#7) looks like this:

MM#7-Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation With Pendleton Power Flour
Pendleton Power Flour (100%):
Water (Spring Water) (51%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (Table Salt) (1.50%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.46%):
Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses (11.5%):
Total (167.06%):
314.69 g  |  11.1 oz | 0.69 lbs
160.49 g  |  5.66 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.89 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
4.72 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
7.74 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
36.19 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 5.43 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
525.72 g | 18.54 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.1204643
Note: Dough is for a single 14” pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.118684; “adjusted” hydration = 53.3%; “effective” hydration = 55.8%; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for setting-forth the MM#7-Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses MM Clone Dogh Formulation with Pendleton Power Flour.  I will mix the dough tomorrow.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #836 on: December 02, 2011, 06:02:28 PM »
Norma,

MM#6 looked perfect... have  you posted the formula?

SC

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #837 on: December 02, 2011, 06:49:41 PM »
Norma,

MM#6 looked perfect... have  you posted the formula?

SC

Saturday Coffee,

Peter, set-forth the formulation at Reply 790 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161079.html#msg161079  That is the exact formulation I used.  If you need any more help, let me know.

Thanks for saying the MM#6 looked perfect.  The pizza really did taste like a real MM pizza.  Sometime I have to try the same formulation in my home oven.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #838 on: December 03, 2011, 01:37:08 PM »
hey guys!

Boy, it's been nuts around here. . We hosted the big family Thankgiving and have been having some work done around the house. . I haven't had much time to spend on the Forum.

You guys have really been going at it. . very impressive!

I have been making my weekly pies as usual, with little variation.  I have been sticking to my 5.5% Brer Rabbit and 2% diastatic malt powder for the most part.  Though last week I decided to add to this 2.3% sorghum because I still have some around.  That particular formula was nothing special.  . I couldn't really tell any difference.  Since my first diastatic malt experiment, my other pies haven't seemed to really wow me as much as it did, but that could depend on many factors.

I also finally got some Grandma's Molasses at the store so I am excited to try that for the first time.  I think I still have some Brer Rabbit that I feel I need to use-up before going to the Grandma's.

I am interested in the salt experiments.  I have been using 1.75% salt for a long time in my MM clone formulations.  Today I will try 1.5%, but I am likely also to adjust some other variables, so it won't be a truly useful test.

I am probably gonna go with some honey and whatever molasses product I have left.  If I'm out of Brer Rabbit, I may go for the gusto and use the approx 11% Grandmas.  That seems soooooo high compared to my 5.5%, but it sounds like it's worked out well for y'all!

Kudos to Peter and Norma for keeping things rolling. . . great work!

Online norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #839 on: December 03, 2011, 04:58:21 PM »
Biz,

Will be interesting if you try 1.5% salt in your formulation to see how that works for you. 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #840 on: December 04, 2011, 08:51:20 AM »
I mixed the new MM#7 formulation Peter set-forth at Reply 834 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161938.html#msg161938 early last evening with the Power Flour and Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses.  The dough ball was then frozen and pulled out of the freezer this morning to defrost and cold ferment until Tuesday.

Norma

Offline jwj101

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #841 on: December 04, 2011, 01:57:11 PM »
Hello Peter and Norma!

I stumbled across this post a couple weeks ago because I am a huge fan of MM dough and I wanted to make a similar crust. Im still kind of new to the whole crust part but I think im getting the hang of it.

I used the MM#7 ingredients list last night for a pizza get together. The only high gluten flour I had on hand was All Trumps 50115 which from what ive gathered is a bromated high gluten with about 14% protein. I used all the other exact ingredients. I just now googled the difference between bromated and unbromated. Im definitely going to start using unbromated flour because of the apparent health risks. (Are the claims true?).

I was only able to let it proof for 2 hours at room temp (71) before I stretched it. I think it needs at least a 24 hour cold proof to get proper rise as mine did not get enough rise. Im trying another batch to sit over night.

I do have some general knowledge questions but Im not sure if I should post them here or not. Let me know if I need to move them.

1. Are all IDY's the same? (Im asking because I used 100* water to start the activity for 8 minutes before putting the rest of room temp water and flour in. Is this standard?

2. Does adding beer in place of some water have an effect on the yeast, salt, and sugar chemistry? I would like a hoppy flavor added but I didnt know if it would screw anything up.

I have read through the first 10 or so pages of this thread and plan on finishing the read. It started with a presumption that there was a wheat flour mix. Does the suggested flour provide that mix or was it ruled out later?


Thank you for the insights so far. This community has been very helpful in my enjoyment of home made pizza!



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #842 on: December 04, 2011, 03:25:20 PM »
jwj101,

Just about all of us who have been actively involved in this thread have been trying to accurately reverse engineer and clone an MM dough. Moreover, in the case of Norma and me, we have for some time been freezing the MM clone dough balls and later defrosting them prior to use. We have not tried to come up with an emergency version such as you did, and that is why the dough you made did not rise enough. The biochemistry "programmed" into the MM clone doughs is specific to the versions of the dough that we have been testing, and not for an emergency dough. However, I think you should have better results with a one-day cold fermentation of the dough.

I believe that you use of the All Trumps flour should work. There are a lot of opinions on the use of bromated flours, both pro and con. That is something you will have to research and form your own opinion. The big pizza chains, and some of the smaller chains, do not use bromated flours because they want to do business in California, where there are very strict notice requirement for products containing bromates. MM is a rather small chain, with about 132 stores, but they have been moving west, and now have a store as far west as Portland, Oregon. Moreover, MM has indicated that it is exploring the possibility of using organic flours. Part of their culture is offering healthful products that have appeal to everyone, including vegans, vegetarians, and those seeking gluten-free products. Using bromated flours would not be consistent with their philosophy. At one time, MM did use wheat germ in their dough but no longer does so, even though some franchisees seem not to have gotten the message. For now, it appears that MM is using only a high-gluten flour.

As to your specific enumerated questions:

1. I would say that just about all IDY products are the same, although from time to time I will read reports from pizza operators and even some home pizza makers who claim that there are differences in the different brands. I am pretty confident that MM does not rehydrate their yeast in warm water before using, as you did. MM makes all of its dough in a commissary and rehydrating IDY would seem to complicate the processing of the dough. IDY can be added directly to the flour. However, since MM freezes its dough balls, there may be reasons why another form of yeast should be used (such as ADY) or for rehydrating the yeast. For example, it may be necessary or desirable to rehydrate the yeast in order to get some fermentation going even though the dough is to be frozen. In the MM clone dough balls that Norma and I have been making, and possibly other members, we have been using IDY and adding it directly to the flour.

2. It is possible to replace all or part of the formula water with beer, although according to Tom Lehmann in his posts at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10081&p=69119&hilit=#p69119 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&p=57042&hilit=#p57042, the more common practice is to replace only a part of the water. As those posts also point out, the beer will create a different flavor but it will not be a beer flavor. MM does not use beer in its dough. It holds itself out as a family-friendly place and using beer in its dough perhaps would not sit well with customers who bring their children with them to an MM store. It is the "social stigma" thing that Tom mentions in the latter PMQ TT post.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 04:40:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #843 on: December 05, 2011, 03:10:32 PM »
I made my weekly pie last night and it turned out fabulously.  As noted before, it's all subjective and dependent upon many intangibles, but I think this pie was probably the best I've made overall and the best MM clone.
I will post more, including pics, as soon as I have more time. Not sure it will do a ton to advance the cause because I changed several variables at once.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #844 on: December 05, 2011, 04:59:29 PM »
I just wanted to step in real quick and compliment your pies. I had the opportunity to eat at a Mellow Mushroom in Atlanta about a year ago and I must say I wasn't incredibly impressed. (Maybe I went on an off-night?) But the pies you guys are making look like they blow what I ate completely out of the water. I'm really impressed.  :chef:

-Clive

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #845 on: December 05, 2011, 05:25:04 PM »
Clive,
Oddly enough, the 2 recent times I've eaten at MM, I actually wasn't that impressed either.  However, in years past, it was one of my absolute favorite joints. 
I know my tastes and palate have changed, but there is reasonable evidence to suggest that they have changed their formula and/or their business model in ways that have negatively impacted flavor/quality.  Peter has done a lot of research and I believe could expand on that.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #846 on: December 05, 2011, 08:12:34 PM »
I know my tastes and palate have changed, but there is reasonable evidence to suggest that they have changed their formula and/or their business model in ways that have negatively impacted flavor/quality.  Peter has done a lot of research and I believe could expand on that.

Mellow Mushroom did indeed change its dough formulation, to the point where some of its customers noticed and reported that they preferred the “old” MM pizzas to the “new” MM pizzas.

For the longest time, those of us who have been actively involved in attempting to reverse engineer and clone the MM dough have labored under the impression that MM was using a Vitamin E-enriched high-gluten flour with wheat germ--along with molasses and Georgia spring water. This was in keeping with the philosophy of the three original founders of MM who espoused offering its customers a healthsome product. Somewhere along the way, MM at the corporate level stopped talking about Vitamin E-enrichment and the use of wheat germ. However, that didn’t stop some of its franchisees from doing so, either unknowingly to MM corporate or with its tacit approval. As recently as a few months ago, a service manager at the Arlington, Texas MM location described the MM dough as being made from “unrefined flour, molasses, wheat germ and fresh Georgia spring water”. See, for example, the article at http://www.theshorthorn.com/index.php/entertainment/fungames/27731-a-70s-themed-mellow-mushroom-has-sprouted-in-downtown-arlington. In keeping with its apparent strategy of offering healthsome products, MM has also attempted to cater to vegans, vegetarians and those who wish to have gluten free options.

It wasn’t until fairly recently, after spending many hours of research and telephone calls to industry professionals at flour mills, General Mills and wheat germ producers, and not being able to identify a source of a Vitamin E-enriched high-gluten flour with wheat germ, or how one might reasonably create such a flour blend, that I decided to call MM to see if I could get anyone at MM to tell me what they were using to make the dough. As previously reported, it was then that I was told that MM does not use wheat germ. That ruled out Vitamin E enrichment since flour millers do not enrich flours with Vitamin E (although some wheat germs are Vitamin E enriched). At this point, I do not consider the MM dough to be a particularly healthsome product. High-gluten flour has the wheat germ and bran stripped out of the whole wheat during milling to make white flour and while molasses is a natural product with good levels of potassium and iron, it is still a “sugar” and can pose problems for some diabetics and is a factor in dental decay. It is a marvel to me how MM is able to charge up to $27.95 for some of its 16” specialty pizzas—for products that are quite simple and inexpensive to produce. No doubt there are diners who think they are getting something that is good for them (there are quite a few people who think MM uses whole wheat flour and honey in its dough) and are willing to pay up for it when in fact they are just getting a molasses darkened crust made with white flour.

Separate and apart from the above, there is also the issue of different MM locations producing pizzas that can have many different looks and finished crust characteristics even though they all use the same frozen dough balls produced at the MM commissary. Many of the MM locations are situated in college towns where they have a good and steady supply of young workers. The dough balls are perfect for those workers, because the dough balls are low in hydration and easy to open up and stretch and spin, but the results can vary from one MM location to another, and even from one day to the next in the same location. Maybe that helps explain why our members have had uneven experiences at the MM locations they visited. 

Peter 

EDIT (9/11/14): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative theshorthorn link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20120127014434/http://www.theshorthorn.com/index.php/entertainment/fungames/27731-a-70s-themed-mellow-mushroom-has-sprouted-in-downtown-arlington
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 08:37:33 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #847 on: December 06, 2011, 01:48:18 AM »
Very interesting, Peter. Thanks for all your research and dedication.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #848 on: December 06, 2011, 05:48:09 PM »
Here's the formula for the pie I made on Sunday that turned out really well.

It finally had that level of detectable sweetness, yet it was complex and interesting.  The dough seemed a little harder to stretch this time. .. it also didn't seem to rise as much in the fridge or during the approximately 2.5 hour temper.  However, the "tougher" dough produced a slightly tougher crust texture that was really enjoyable.

KABF/VWG Blend (100%)
Water (Spring Water) (52%)
IDY (0.60%)
Salt (kosher salt) (1.50%)
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%)
Brer Rabbit Mild Molasses (6%)
Local Clover Honey (5%)
Diastatic Malt Powder (1.5%)
Total (168.6%)
The flour blend was 97.6% KABF and remainder Bob's Red Mill VWG.

I didn't really get any good pics but the rim was great with that almost eerie-looking sunken appearance, especially on the kids' half with all that cheese.

I am now out of Brer Rabbit and have just Grandma's.  I'm not sure if I'll repeat this next week and just substitute the Grandma's or try one of Peter's formulas using Grandma's only.

Oh!  My wife also came home from TJ Maxx today with a can of "Golden Syrup" imported from the UK.  It's pure cane syrup. It also mentions something about "partially inverted" or whatever.  Not sure what Invert Sugar is but it's in a lot of imported products.
Any suggestions on what to do with this stuff?   ;D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #849 on: December 06, 2011, 07:25:18 PM »
Biz,

Your formulation is similar to the one I tried and even closer to the one I devised for Norma, but for the diastatic malt. I thought that the clover honey-molasses combination (I used the Grandma's Original molasses) was a good combination, even though it would not pass muster with MM because of the inclusion of the honey. I think that the all-molasses version (again, using the Grandma's Original molasses) is also a good one.

The pattern that seems to be developing from our experiments, and especially the most recent ones, is that if one uses around 11-12% sweetener(s), either a blend of sweeteners or one that uses a high-sugar molasses all by itself (like the Grandma's Original molasses), that amount of sweetener(s) is likely to work out well from the standpoint of detectable sweetness and color that is reasonably close to the benchmark color. Honey is a good component because it is about as sweet as sugar. Open kettle "molasses" products like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses or the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup are also good choices because they have high values of "sugars". I think that a combination of a Brer Rabbit molasses and another sweetener, such as honey or an open kettle molasses, should also work well. Since I have the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses on hand, I may try a combination of that product with the Steen's product to try to achieve even more flavor, but with increased complexity of flavor. I plan to continue to use around 1.5-1.6% salt on the theory that high salt levels mute the sweetness of the finished crust.

Norma mentioned the Lyle's Golden Syrup recently and that prompted me to research that product, not knowing at the time that it is a UK product and not one that MM would use. As best I can tell, the Golden Syrup is made by adding invert sugar to a cane sugar syrup. Invert sugar is simply fructose and glucose that has been cleaved from sucrose, by either using the enzyme invertase or a boiling method that I believe involves the introduction of a small amount of an acid. Fructose is about 1.6-1.7 times sweeter than sucrose and glucose is about 74% as sweet as sugar. But the combination is about 30% sweeter than sucrose. This makes the Golden Syrup a good candidate for an MM clone dough formulation, but an experiment would have to be conducted to see if the amount of that product needed to achieve the desired degree of sweetness will yield the proper amount of dough and crust coloration. As can be seen at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FA1KO4/?tag=pizzamaking-20, the Lyle's Golden Syrup is fairly light in color. I think a blend of that product and a molasses product should also work. I would have to study the Nutrition Facts for the Lyle's Golden Syrup for an amount to use in the blend but I would think that around 11% would be a good place to start, consistent with what we have learned most recently.

Peter


 

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