Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 149843 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #840 on: December 04, 2011, 08:51:20 AM »
I mixed the new MM#7 formulation Peter set-forth at Reply 834 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161938.html#msg161938 early last evening with the Power Flour and Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses.  The dough ball was then frozen and pulled out of the freezer this morning to defrost and cold ferment until Tuesday.

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Offline jwj101

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #841 on: December 04, 2011, 01:57:11 PM »
Hello Peter and Norma!

I stumbled across this post a couple weeks ago because I am a huge fan of MM dough and I wanted to make a similar crust. Im still kind of new to the whole crust part but I think im getting the hang of it.

I used the MM#7 ingredients list last night for a pizza get together. The only high gluten flour I had on hand was All Trumps 50115 which from what ive gathered is a bromated high gluten with about 14% protein. I used all the other exact ingredients. I just now googled the difference between bromated and unbromated. Im definitely going to start using unbromated flour because of the apparent health risks. (Are the claims true?).

I was only able to let it proof for 2 hours at room temp (71) before I stretched it. I think it needs at least a 24 hour cold proof to get proper rise as mine did not get enough rise. Im trying another batch to sit over night.

I do have some general knowledge questions but Im not sure if I should post them here or not. Let me know if I need to move them.

1. Are all IDY's the same? (Im asking because I used 100* water to start the activity for 8 minutes before putting the rest of room temp water and flour in. Is this standard?

2. Does adding beer in place of some water have an effect on the yeast, salt, and sugar chemistry? I would like a hoppy flavor added but I didnt know if it would screw anything up.

I have read through the first 10 or so pages of this thread and plan on finishing the read. It started with a presumption that there was a wheat flour mix. Does the suggested flour provide that mix or was it ruled out later?


Thank you for the insights so far. This community has been very helpful in my enjoyment of home made pizza!


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #842 on: December 04, 2011, 03:25:20 PM »
jwj101,

Just about all of us who have been actively involved in this thread have been trying to accurately reverse engineer and clone an MM dough. Moreover, in the case of Norma and me, we have for some time been freezing the MM clone dough balls and later defrosting them prior to use. We have not tried to come up with an emergency version such as you did, and that is why the dough you made did not rise enough. The biochemistry "programmed" into the MM clone doughs is specific to the versions of the dough that we have been testing, and not for an emergency dough. However, I think you should have better results with a one-day cold fermentation of the dough.

I believe that you use of the All Trumps flour should work. There are a lot of opinions on the use of bromated flours, both pro and con. That is something you will have to research and form your own opinion. The big pizza chains, and some of the smaller chains, do not use bromated flours because they want to do business in California, where there are very strict notice requirement for products containing bromates. MM is a rather small chain, with about 132 stores, but they have been moving west, and now have a store as far west as Portland, Oregon. Moreover, MM has indicated that it is exploring the possibility of using organic flours. Part of their culture is offering healthful products that have appeal to everyone, including vegans, vegetarians, and those seeking gluten-free products. Using bromated flours would not be consistent with their philosophy. At one time, MM did use wheat germ in their dough but no longer does so, even though some franchisees seem not to have gotten the message. For now, it appears that MM is using only a high-gluten flour.

As to your specific enumerated questions:

1. I would say that just about all IDY products are the same, although from time to time I will read reports from pizza operators and even some home pizza makers who claim that there are differences in the different brands. I am pretty confident that MM does not rehydrate their yeast in warm water before using, as you did. MM makes all of its dough in a commissary and rehydrating IDY would seem to complicate the processing of the dough. IDY can be added directly to the flour. However, since MM freezes its dough balls, there may be reasons why another form of yeast should be used (such as ADY) or for rehydrating the yeast. For example, it may be necessary or desirable to rehydrate the yeast in order to get some fermentation going even though the dough is to be frozen. In the MM clone dough balls that Norma and I have been making, and possibly other members, we have been using IDY and adding it directly to the flour.

2. It is possible to replace all or part of the formula water with beer, although according to Tom Lehmann in his posts at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10081&p=69119&hilit=#p69119 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&p=57042&hilit=#p57042, the more common practice is to replace only a part of the water. As those posts also point out, the beer will create a different flavor but it will not be a beer flavor. MM does not use beer in its dough. It holds itself out as a family-friendly place and using beer in its dough perhaps would not sit well with customers who bring their children with them to an MM store. It is the "social stigma" thing that Tom mentions in the latter PMQ TT post.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 04:40:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #843 on: December 05, 2011, 03:10:32 PM »
I made my weekly pie last night and it turned out fabulously.  As noted before, it's all subjective and dependent upon many intangibles, but I think this pie was probably the best I've made overall and the best MM clone.
I will post more, including pics, as soon as I have more time. Not sure it will do a ton to advance the cause because I changed several variables at once.

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #844 on: December 05, 2011, 04:59:29 PM »
I just wanted to step in real quick and compliment your pies. I had the opportunity to eat at a Mellow Mushroom in Atlanta about a year ago and I must say I wasn't incredibly impressed. (Maybe I went on an off-night?) But the pies you guys are making look like they blow what I ate completely out of the water. I'm really impressed.  :chef:

-Clive

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #845 on: December 05, 2011, 05:25:04 PM »
Clive,
Oddly enough, the 2 recent times I've eaten at MM, I actually wasn't that impressed either.  However, in years past, it was one of my absolute favorite joints. 
I know my tastes and palate have changed, but there is reasonable evidence to suggest that they have changed their formula and/or their business model in ways that have negatively impacted flavor/quality.  Peter has done a lot of research and I believe could expand on that.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #846 on: December 05, 2011, 08:12:34 PM »
I know my tastes and palate have changed, but there is reasonable evidence to suggest that they have changed their formula and/or their business model in ways that have negatively impacted flavor/quality.  Peter has done a lot of research and I believe could expand on that.


Mellow Mushroom did indeed change its dough formulation, to the point where some of its customers noticed and reported that they preferred the “old” MM pizzas to the “new” MM pizzas.

For the longest time, those of us who have been actively involved in attempting to reverse engineer and clone the MM dough have labored under the impression that MM was using a Vitamin E-enriched high-gluten flour with wheat germ--along with molasses and Georgia spring water. This was in keeping with the philosophy of the three original founders of MM who espoused offering its customers a healthsome product. Somewhere along the way, MM at the corporate level stopped talking about Vitamin E-enrichment and the use of wheat germ. However, that didn’t stop some of its franchisees from doing so, either unknowingly to MM corporate or with its tacit approval. As recently as a few months ago, a service manager at the Arlington, Texas MM location described the MM dough as being made from “unrefined flour, molasses, wheat germ and fresh Georgia spring water”. See, for example, the article at http://www.theshorthorn.com/index.php/entertainment/fungames/27731-a-70s-themed-mellow-mushroom-has-sprouted-in-downtown-arlington. In keeping with its apparent strategy of offering healthsome products, MM has also attempted to cater to vegans, vegetarians and those who wish to have gluten free options.

It wasn’t until fairly recently, after spending many hours of research and telephone calls to industry professionals at flour mills, General Mills and wheat germ producers, and not being able to identify a source of a Vitamin E-enriched high-gluten flour with wheat germ, or how one might reasonably create such a flour blend, that I decided to call MM to see if I could get anyone at MM to tell me what they were using to make the dough. As previously reported, it was then that I was told that MM does not use wheat germ. That ruled out Vitamin E enrichment since flour millers do not enrich flours with Vitamin E (although some wheat germs are Vitamin E enriched). At this point, I do not consider the MM dough to be a particularly healthsome product. High-gluten flour has the wheat germ and bran stripped out of the whole wheat during milling to make white flour and while molasses is a natural product with good levels of potassium and iron, it is still a “sugar” and can pose problems for some diabetics and is a factor in dental decay. It is a marvel to me how MM is able to charge up to $27.95 for some of its 16” specialty pizzas—for products that are quite simple and inexpensive to produce. No doubt there are diners who think they are getting something that is good for them (there are quite a few people who think MM uses whole wheat flour and honey in its dough) and are willing to pay up for it when in fact they are just getting a molasses darkened crust made with white flour.

Separate and apart from the above, there is also the issue of different MM locations producing pizzas that can have many different looks and finished crust characteristics even though they all use the same frozen dough balls produced at the MM commissary. Many of the MM locations are situated in college towns where they have a good and steady supply of young workers. The dough balls are perfect for those workers, because the dough balls are low in hydration and easy to open up and stretch and spin, but the results can vary from one MM location to another, and even from one day to the next in the same location. Maybe that helps explain why our members have had uneven experiences at the MM locations they visited. 

Peter 

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #847 on: December 06, 2011, 01:48:18 AM »
Very interesting, Peter. Thanks for all your research and dedication.

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #848 on: December 06, 2011, 05:48:09 PM »
Here's the formula for the pie I made on Sunday that turned out really well.

It finally had that level of detectable sweetness, yet it was complex and interesting.  The dough seemed a little harder to stretch this time. .. it also didn't seem to rise as much in the fridge or during the approximately 2.5 hour temper.  However, the "tougher" dough produced a slightly tougher crust texture that was really enjoyable.

KABF/VWG Blend (100%)
Water (Spring Water) (52%)
IDY (0.60%)
Salt (kosher salt) (1.50%)
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%)
Brer Rabbit Mild Molasses (6%)
Local Clover Honey (5%)
Diastatic Malt Powder (1.5%)
Total (168.6%)
The flour blend was 97.6% KABF and remainder Bob's Red Mill VWG.

I didn't really get any good pics but the rim was great with that almost eerie-looking sunken appearance, especially on the kids' half with all that cheese.

I am now out of Brer Rabbit and have just Grandma's.  I'm not sure if I'll repeat this next week and just substitute the Grandma's or try one of Peter's formulas using Grandma's only.

Oh!  My wife also came home from TJ Maxx today with a can of "Golden Syrup" imported from the UK.  It's pure cane syrup. It also mentions something about "partially inverted" or whatever.  Not sure what Invert Sugar is but it's in a lot of imported products.
Any suggestions on what to do with this stuff?   ;D

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #849 on: December 06, 2011, 07:25:18 PM »
Biz,

Your formulation is similar to the one I tried and even closer to the one I devised for Norma, but for the diastatic malt. I thought that the clover honey-molasses combination (I used the Grandma's Original molasses) was a good combination, even though it would not pass muster with MM because of the inclusion of the honey. I think that the all-molasses version (again, using the Grandma's Original molasses) is also a good one.

The pattern that seems to be developing from our experiments, and especially the most recent ones, is that if one uses around 11-12% sweetener(s), either a blend of sweeteners or one that uses a high-sugar molasses all by itself (like the Grandma's Original molasses), that amount of sweetener(s) is likely to work out well from the standpoint of detectable sweetness and color that is reasonably close to the benchmark color. Honey is a good component because it is about as sweet as sugar. Open kettle "molasses" products like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses or the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup are also good choices because they have high values of "sugars". I think that a combination of a Brer Rabbit molasses and another sweetener, such as honey or an open kettle molasses, should also work well. Since I have the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses on hand, I may try a combination of that product with the Steen's product to try to achieve even more flavor, but with increased complexity of flavor. I plan to continue to use around 1.5-1.6% salt on the theory that high salt levels mute the sweetness of the finished crust.

Norma mentioned the Lyle's Golden Syrup recently and that prompted me to research that product, not knowing at the time that it is a UK product and not one that MM would use. As best I can tell, the Golden Syrup is made by adding invert sugar to a cane sugar syrup. Invert sugar is simply fructose and glucose that has been cleaved from sucrose, by either using the enzyme invertase or a boiling method that I believe involves the introduction of a small amount of an acid. Fructose is about 1.6-1.7 times sweeter than sucrose and glucose is about 74% as sweet as sugar. But the combination is about 30% sweeter than sucrose. This makes the Golden Syrup a good candidate for an MM clone dough formulation, but an experiment would have to be conducted to see if the amount of that product needed to achieve the desired degree of sweetness will yield the proper amount of dough and crust coloration. As can be seen at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FA1KO4/?tag=pizzamaking-20, the Lyle's Golden Syrup is fairly light in color. I think a blend of that product and a molasses product should also work. I would have to study the Nutrition Facts for the Lyle's Golden Syrup for an amount to use in the blend but I would think that around 11% would be a good place to start, consistent with what we have learned most recently.

Peter


Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #850 on: December 06, 2011, 07:34:04 PM »
Thanks for the info, Peter!

Yes, the Golden Syrup my wife bought is indeed the Lyle's.  I am debating whether to use it since it's not something I can reliably keep on-hand.  I don't want to get hooked on it!

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #851 on: December 06, 2011, 09:01:11 PM »
The MM#7 formulation worked out well today.  I left the dough ball warm-up longer than my other attempts at market.  The dough sat out for 7 hrs. before the dough was opened.  I wanted to see if letting the dough ball warm-up longer would affect it in any way, but it didn’t appear that it did, expect it did rise a lot more.  The dough ball opened the same as the others and also baked almost the same.  It seems like the crust was a little moister this time.  I don’t know if that was from using the PMF Power flour or from the dough ball sitting out so long.  The temperatures were warmer than normal at market today, so maybe that also helped the dough to ferment more.

Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #852 on: December 06, 2011, 09:02:09 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #853 on: December 06, 2011, 09:03:08 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #854 on: December 06, 2011, 09:04:08 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #855 on: December 06, 2011, 09:05:27 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #856 on: December 06, 2011, 09:06:38 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #857 on: December 06, 2011, 09:07:34 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #858 on: December 06, 2011, 09:35:05 PM »
Norma,

The MM#7 clone with all Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses also looks very good. How did you and your tasters like the pizza and did you like the MM#7 pizza as well as the MM#6 pizza and, if not, why not? Also, did you detect sweetness in the finished crust and did the salt level work out OK? And did you like the Pendleton Power flour better than the KASL? Any other observations?

Peter

Offline FeCheF

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #859 on: December 06, 2011, 10:04:23 PM »
Is it just me or does the rim look under cooked? I dunno if the color from the molasses is throwing me off or what but it looks really doughey. Ive never heard of mellow mushroom pizza but i am curious. Just dont know if i would like it if its really doughey. Maybe it should be called mellow mush...room?