Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 166738 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1380 on: February 14, 2012, 10:15:48 PM »
Fred,

The MM clone doughs I have been working with are easy to open in my opinion, but then I do open dough balls every week.  Did you watch the videos I posted of the MM employees opening MM dough balls at and

What does you dough ball look like before you try to open the dough ball?  Does it have any fermentation bubbles on the bottom?  Do you know what final dough temperature your dough is after mixing?  I donít really know why you skin would want to contract back.

If I can be of any help in specifically telling you what I do when I open a MM clone dough let me know and I will tell you exactly how I open the MM clone dough balls.

Norma
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Offline FLJohnson

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1381 on: February 15, 2012, 06:47:53 AM »
Thanks to Pete and Norma for your interest in trying to help me out.

Here is the last recipe I used for a 14" pizza that pushed the hydration up a bit in attempts to make this more extensible (is that the:

300 g King Arthur Bread Flour
9.3 g Hodgson Vital Wheat Gluten Flour
176.3 g filtered tap water
2.2 g Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Yeast (unopened package)
4.6 g table salt
7.9 g Colavita extra virgin olive oil
7.7 g Plantation Blackstrap Molasses
30.9 g table sugar

I whisk together the flour, gluten, and yeast; dissolve the salt, molasses, and sugar in the water (lots of stirring to dissolve the molasses); and pulse the dry mix, water mix, and the oil in a "20-cup" Cuisinart food processor until the ball forms. I then knead it by hand for about 5 minutes. I place it in a plastic storage food container, lightly oiled. And place it in the refrigerator. About 20 hours later the ball has risen about 50% (rough guess) and I bring it out to the room to warm for 3-4 hours. I have also put it into a proofing oven for about 30 min before handling it to get some more fermentation. There is good sign of fermentation, with bubbles on the bottom of the ball in the container. (Sorry, no photos. Perhaps on next batch.)

The dough simply can not be handled the way I have watched them at the local Mellow Mushroom in Cary, North Carolina or on the personal videos posted.

Thanks, again, for any tips on how I can improve this.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 05:56:18 PM by FLJohnson »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1382 on: February 15, 2012, 08:03:02 AM »
Fred,

I will await until Peter has time to go over your MM clone formulation, mixing methods, and fermentation until I answer. I canít figure out your MM formulation. Since Peter also uses a food processor maybe he can give you some help on your mixing method.  I use my Kitchen Aid mixer to mix my MM clone doughs.

Did you ever try to freeze your dough ball after mixing?  That is what Peter and I have been doing in most of the experiments.

Interesting that you did get to watch MM employees in Cary, North Carolina open their dough balls.   ;D

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1383 on: February 15, 2012, 10:40:15 AM »
Here is the last recipe I used for a 14" pizza that pushed the hydration up a bit in attempts to make this more extensible:

300 g King Arthur Bread Flour
9.3 g Hodgson Vital Wheat Gluten Flour
176.3 g filtered tap water
2.2 g Fleischmann's Rapid Rise Yeast (unopened package)
4.6 g table salt
7.9 g Colavita extra virgin olive oil
7.7 g Plantation Blackstrap Molasses
30.9 g table sugar

Fred,

Thank you for the details of the MM clone dough formulation you used. As a point of clarification, I assume that you meant to say that you added the salt to the water and molasses and sugar, not to the other dry ingredients (flour, vital wheat gluten and yeast). Is that correct?

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, and also the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, I converted your recipe to the dough formulation format as set forth below. I also calculated the percent of water in your MM clone dough, the "adjusted" hydration that takes into account the water content of the Plantation blackstrap molasses (I assumed 21% water), and the "effective" hydration that also takes the oil (2.554%) into account. I also came up with a sucrose equivalency value. I'd like to commend you for the very nice and meticulous job you did in creating your MM clone recipe. The numbers lined up nicely, although I think I may have diagnosed the problem, about which I will have more to say below.

Here is what your MM clone dough formulation looks like, together with the related metrics:

Fred's MM Clone Dough Formulation
KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Filtered Tap Water (57%):
Fleischmann's Rapid Rise IDY (0.7113%):
Table Salt (1.4872%):
Colavita Extra Virgin Olive Oil (2.554%):
Table Sugar (9.99%):
Plantation Blackstrap Molasses (2.4895%):
Total (174.232%):
309.3 g  |  10.91 oz | 0.68 lbs
176.3 g  |  6.22 oz | 0.39 lbs
2.2 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
4.6 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
7.9 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.76 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
30.9 g | 1.09 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.75 tsp | 2.58 tbsp
7.7 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs
538.9 g | 19.01 oz | 1.19 lbs | TF = N/A
*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 300 grams KABF and 9.3 grams Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten, with a total protein content of 14.32%.
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Related Metrics:
Percent of water in the dough = 40.95% (this is a bit high but not too far out of line)
Nominal "Adjusted" hydration = 57.52%
Nominal "Effective" hydration = 60.08%
Sucrose equivalency = 11.48%

After taking everything into account, I think your problem is related to the amount of sugar you used. What you did was creative in seeking a combination of ordinary table sugar and a small amount of the Plantation blackstrap molasses that would give you both sweetness and flavor in the finished crust and color in the dough and finished crust, much like brown sugar would, but I think that the large amount of sugar (about 10%) had the effect of lowering the formula hydration. Sugar is a hygroscopic ingredient. That means that it attracts water from its surroundings. Molasses is also a hygroscopic ingredient, maybe even more so than sugar, but at about 2.5%, its impact is likely to be slight. Since sugar is dry, you effectively have to take that dryness into account in arriving at a final hydration value. For example, if we were to add the sugar to the KABF/VWG blend for hydration calculation purposes, and accounting for the water in the molasses, the hydration becomes 52.3%, which is much lower than the nominal adjusted hydration value noted above. Adding the oil percent to that number, we get an effective hydration of 54.85%. If my analysis is correct, that would be too low, and may well have contributed to the increased elasticity you experienced. If you had added other dry ingredients to your mix, such as whey, dry milk powder, more vital wheat gluten, etc., you would have experienced a similar hydration deficiency. People often fail to take these effects into account when they decide to modify an existing dough formulation by adding other ingredients. In your case, it was a dry ingredient but the same problem occurs when people add wet ingredients, except in that case the formula hydration has to be lowered rather than raised.

To the above, I would add that when sugar gets above about 5% in a dough formulation, it has an osmotic effect on the yeast that can impair its performance. That seems not to have been a problem in your case. Sometimes the effect of too much sugar can be offset to a degree by using more yeast, and maybe that was the case with your dough since the amount of yeast I have been recommending is higher than normal.

In terms of altering your MM dough clone formulation to make it more workable, as by increasing the formula hydration, I would have to spend some time playing around with possible solutions. For example, increasing the formula hydration might have the effect of increasing the total water content of the dough above around 40%, which is the value our hydration bake tests have established for a real MM dough. There is not much that can be done with the molasses since there is too little of it.

In a sense, I think you may have wandered too far off of the MM reservation with your particular MM clone dough formulation but if you would like me to try to repair it, I am willing to give it the old college try.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 05:46:34 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1384 on: February 15, 2012, 04:36:06 PM »
I contacted Groeb Farms about a sample request for their unsulphured Golden A Molasses product.  I didnít know what their molasses product was like, but it said it was sweet and fancy.  The ingredients just say cane molasses.  I received the gallon sample today and also the specs for the Groeb Farms Golden A Molasses.  It says on the specs that the sugar amount is 14 grams per tablespoon, so it is like the Grandmaís Original Molasses.  I tasted the Golden A Molasses and it doesnít taste like Grandmaís Original, but tastes like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses with the blackstrap molasses added.  I donít know if Groeb Farms adds any blackstrap molasses to their Golden A Molasses or not.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1385 on: February 15, 2012, 04:38:52 PM »

The MM clone experiments I did yesterday with the Grandmaís Original Molasses with KASL and the one with Homemaid Molasses and ADM Gigantic Flour turned out almost the same.  The only differences were the first experiment with the Grandmasí Original Molasses with KASL the crumb seemed a little airier.  The second experiment with the Homemaid Molasses and the ADM bromated Gigantic Flour the crumb seemed a little denser and looked a little denser.  The second experiment did look like it had better oven spring, but that could have been how I opened the dough ball. 

Both experiments were light in color in the dough and crumb and had about the same amount of sweetness in the crust.

The first two MM pictures were just taken with different settings on my camera.  It shows how different setting do change pictures.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1386 on: February 15, 2012, 04:40:42 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1387 on: February 15, 2012, 04:41:59 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1388 on: February 15, 2012, 04:42:37 PM »
Norma
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Offline FLJohnson

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1389 on: February 15, 2012, 04:59:57 PM »
Thanks, Pete, for your careful analysis of my recipe, and, yes, I fumbled and should not have included the salt in the dry mixture. It  was added to the liquid mixture of water, molasses, and sugar. I will revise my original post for posterity.  :)

I think I am a little confused about the hydration numbers. Your numbers are the numbers I, too, calculated and thought that the values are right in line with the target. How are these different than what I've been seeing for the MM clones in this thread? I assume I am missing something fundamental here.

Fred
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 05:54:42 PM by FLJohnson »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1390 on: February 15, 2012, 07:04:42 PM »
I think I am a little confused about the hydration numbers. Your numbers are the numbers I, too, calculated and thought that the values are right in line with the target. How are these different than what I've been seeing for the MM clones in this thread? I assume I am missing something fundamental here.

Fred,

The main point I was trying to make in Reply 1383 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172042.html#msg172042 is that the most important hydration value is the final "effective" hydration value, not the formula hydration value. In Reply 1383, I tried to draw a distinction between the "nominal" effective hydration value (recited in Related Metrics), which does not take the large amount of sugar into account, and the final effective hydration value that does take the sugar into account. For some time, the effective hydration values for the MM clone doughs have been running around 57-58%. Previously, they were lower, typically by a couple percent. What changed things were two events. The first was the publication by MM of its Nutrition Facts. The second event was Norma taking delivery of a real MM dough on which to conduct experiments, notably the hydration bake test but also the gluten mass test. Those two things allowed me to tweak values better but they also suggested that we should use higher effective hydration values. I should also mention that there is no single value of effective hydration. It is different for each type of molasses product and has to be calculated each time. And those changes can require changes in the other ingredients used in the dough formulations. Each MM clone dough formulation is in essence an original formulation custom tailored to the particular application.

When I was analyzing your dough formulation, my thought was that perhaps the formula hydration you used could be increased by a few percent, maybe to around 60% in order to raise the value of the effective hydration (to something around 57-58%). That was never necessary before because all of the MM clone dough formulations I came up with (I am now up to number 37) had molasses as the principal sweetener, not sucrose (table sugar). Most recently, I have been using from about 11-19% liquid molasses. After I posted in Reply 1383, I tentatively concluded that your dough formulation might not meet other tests for a real MM dough, not from a sugars standpoint (because the table sugar is all sucrose) but because of the lesser amounts of sugars in the blackstrap molasses. However, that is not fatal. If you can get the necessary hydration, you should still be able to make a credible MM clone. I would think that a sucrose equivalency of 11.48%, based mostly on the table sugar (blackstrap molasses has almost no sugar), would make for an especially sweet crust, and maybe too sweet. 

The other thought that occurred to me after I posted is to let the MM clone dough ferment for longer than 20 hours. We have been working mainly with defrosted MM clone dough balls although MM does deliver fresh dough balls to its stores in the Atlanta market. I have no idea as to how long those dough balls are usable but most companies that deliver refrigerated dough balls to their stores, such as Papa John's and Papa Gino's, among others, do twice a week deliveries. I assume the fresh dough balls are used fresh and not frozen at the store level for later use.

Peter

Offline FLJohnson

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1391 on: February 16, 2012, 07:07:32 AM »
Pete, I must be a dunce, but I'm still not understanding why you are saying the effective hydration of my recipe is off. You suggested that I should raise the formula hydration to about 60% to get the effective hydration up to 57-58%, but you calculated in Reply #1383 that my effective hydration is already at 60.08%, and the formula hydration (water only) is 57%. Am I reading the numbers your calculated incorrectly?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 07:09:23 AM by FLJohnson »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1392 on: February 16, 2012, 09:11:14 AM »
Fred,

The target numbers I was referring to in Reply 1383 are 52.3% and 54.85%. These are the numbers that I thought might be too low.

Perhaps if I show you a couple of examples--a typical one such as I have been creating that uses all liquid molasses, and your formulation that uses mostly sugar and a small amount of molasses--and how I calculate the numbers.

Consider first the MM clone dough formulation that I came up with for CDNpielover at Reply 1372 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171693.html#msg171693. That formulation has 315.85 grams of flour, 162.03 grams of water, 53.69 grams of molasses, and 2.6% oil. The particular type and brand of the molasses used in this formulation contains 20% water. The "adjusted" hydration as I use that calculation is [(0.20 x 53.69) + 162.03)/315.85] = 54.87%. To get the "effective" hydration as I use that calculation, I add the oil percent to that number. In this example, we get an "effective" hydration of 54.87% + 2.6% = 57.47%.

In your case, you are using a flour blend of 309.3 grams, 176.3 grams of water, 30.9 grams of sugar, 7.7 grams of molasses, and 2.554% oil. I do not have the specs for the Plantation blackstrap molasses that you used, so I used 20% as the amount of water in that product. For these numbers, I calculated the "adjusted" hydration as follows:

[(0.20 x 7.7) + 176.3]/[(30.9 + 309.3)] = 52.3%.

To get the "effective" hydration, I add 2.554% to the above number, to get 52.3% + 2.554% = 54.8%.

The above is the only way that I know to adjust for the changes you made to the MM clone dough formulation you worked from. The only other way I would be able to tell if your formulation produces comparable results would be to actually try the formulation.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1393 on: February 16, 2012, 05:17:47 PM »
Thanks, again, Pete for the detailed explanation. I understand your point now. I also must conclude that the effective hydration calculation in the Related Metrics of your Reply #1383 is simply incorrect based on what you have said. Are you suggesting that the  formula should be changed to include other dry ingredients such as sugar?

If the effective hydration figure is an important index, then it seems that my recipe is a good example of how the current formula is deficient. Of course, I have no idea of the history of using the effective hydration value, but if you think my adding sugar to the recipe reveals that the current formula for effective hydration is inadequate, then it seems it is time to change the formula.

Of course, I will soon try a recipe in which I drop the sugar by half and boost the effective hydration to something like 57% including the sugar content in the calculation and see if working the dough becomes easier.

Again, many thanks for your patience.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1394 on: February 16, 2012, 06:40:21 PM »
Fred,

The concept of "effective hydration" is not new although I started to use the expression "effective hydration" to describe the effects of wet ingredients like oil on the final hydration of a dough. For example, if a flour has a rated absorption of 63% and you use a formula hydration of 63% along with another wet ingredient, like oil, the dough will seem wetter than normal. That is because ingredients like oil have a "wetting" effect on the dough. The same thing would happen if you added eggs, honey, syrups of various kinds, or anything else that contains a liquid. If those ingredients are added to an existing dough formulation, you have to back off on the formula hydration to compensate for the water content of those ingredients. When I came up with the basic Papa John's clone dough formulation, which includes around 7% oil, I could not use a formula hydration of say, 63% for a high-gluten flour, because the combination, 63% + 7%, would yield an "effective hydration" of 70%. That would have been too high. So, I lowered the formula hydration to around 56% so that the sum of the formula hydration (56%) and 7% oil would come to 63%--which is equal to the rated absorption of the flour. Not long after I started to use this method, I read a post by Tom Lehmann at the PMQ Think Tank that gave the same advice except that he didn't give the approach a name. "Effective hydration" also works in reverse, as when dry ingredients are added to an existing recipe except that the formula hydration has to be increased to compensate for the dryness of those ingredients.

In this thread, I also came up with an expression "adjusted hydration". That expression takes into account only the effects of the water content of the molasses. We have known for quite a long time that the MM dough contains molasses. Only molasses. No other sugars or sweeteners. MM and its franchisees have also said that that there are no refined white sugars in their dough. This has been MM's position consistently since 1974 when Mellow Mushroom was founded. So, your recipe with refined white sugar would not pass muster as a credible clone of the MM dough. We debated at length whether raw cane sugar (aka turbinado) or brown sugar was a "refined white sugar", especially since sugar producers tout the "pure" and "natural" merits of those sugars, but we conclued that those sugars were most likely refined. We also ruled out a combination of liquid molasses and honey once we learned that honey is not a vegan ingredient. MM touts the vegan nature of all of their food items and, when confronted with the honey issue, told us that they don't use honey. Your combination of table sugar and the Plantation blackstrap molasses is really a form of brown sugar, except in your case you are using more molasses than is ordinarily added to white sugar to make it into a brown sugar.

As previously mentioned, our efforts to reverse engineer and clone the MM dough started to pay dividends once MM published its Nutrition Facts and Norma ended up with a real MM dough on which to conduct experiments from which we were able to come up with some very useful data to help us get closer on formula hydration, total water content, and amounts of molasses to use. That helped me to refine the "adjusted hydration" an "effective hydration" calculations. We still don't know exactly what form or brand of molasses is using in its commissary but our members have been getting good results with several molasses products. They are all in liquid form with no other sweeteners added even though other sweeteners will work reasonably well with molasses. The sole purpose of this thread has been to reverse engineer and clone a real MM dough, not to come up with adaptations along the lines you have been considering.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1395 on: February 16, 2012, 10:37:54 PM »
I had contacted B&G Food, Inc. and asked them if I could have the specs for the Grandmaís Original Molasses and also the Brer Rabbit Mild Flavored Molasses.  They sent the specs to me in the mail.  These are the specs for both molasses products.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1396 on: February 16, 2012, 10:39:28 PM »
Norma
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1397 on: February 19, 2012, 11:45:04 AM »
I thought just for the heck of it to see what would happen I tried the Golden A Molasses in the MM#7 formulation.  I got Bob out again and compared him to the dough ball before it had cornmeal on it.  I thought the Golden A Molasses had tasted like it had blackstrap molasses in it when I first tasted it.  I think, but am not sure, that I am getting better at just tasting molasses products to see how sweet they are and also to know if blackstrap molasses might be added. I really donít know if blackstrap molasses is added in the Golden A Molasses product from Groeb Farms. This dough ball compared to Bob is darker in color.  The Golden A Molasses has 14 grams of sugar for a tablespoon.  I also used KASL in this MM#7 clone formulation.

Norma
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Offline FLJohnson

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1398 on: February 20, 2012, 07:04:33 AM »
Again, many thanks, Pete, for your further explanation. I understand perfectly the purpose of this thread and that my addition of table sugar is not in line with that purpose. I must admit that I never intended to be a real contributor to the advancement of the knowledge on the clone recipe, I just like the MM pizza crust and wanted to make something similar. Surely you would agree that one would not have to exactly match all the same ingredients as MM to produce a reasonably similar tasting/feeling pizza, especially if the only departure is whether it is vegan or not.

You will recall that my original post was in regard to my problems working the dough, and I needed to get the experts' opinions about what could have been causing my problems. The hydration level was naturally a key parameter in that regard, which is how we got into the excellent tutorial you have so graciously offered. I just didn't understand why the effective hydration level would not automatically include an ingredient like sugar in the calculation. My question about the hydration calculation was never in defense of putting sugar in the recipe.

I promise not to continue to post my off-target recipes on this thread. I did not mean to side-track anyone. Just a newbie trying to literally throw (or stretch or press out) a decent pizza skin.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1399 on: February 20, 2012, 09:32:15 AM »
Fred,

Unfortunately, this thread has become principally a mathematical exercise. The main reason is because there are so many different forms and brands of molasses and molasses-like products. Life would have been much easier if we knew, and could have procured, the specific type and brand of molasses MM has been using. I have been collecting data and specs on ten different types/brands of molasses and molasses-type products to date, and Norma is about to add #11 (the Golden A molasses from Groeb Farms). Among the members, I believe that we have tested about eight or nine of the products. Most of these can be ruled out for cloning purposes because, used alone, they do not have enough sugars and they are too dark. That is especially true with blackstrap molasses. They would have to be combined with something else.

One of the dough formulations that I tried that I liked even though it did not qualify as a legitimate MM clone dough included a combination of molasses (7% Grandma's Original molasses) and honey (6% clover honey). I have been so preoccupied with new MM clone dough formulations that I haven't had a chance to retry the molasses-honey formulation to see if I still think that the results are worthy. But, to your point, there are indeed many formulations that will work and produce good results even if they do not pass muster as credible MM clone doughs.

Peter


 

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