Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Knowing of your interest in trying out an MM clone dough using the Domino Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup ("Syrup") with some blackstrap molasses, I took a stab at such a formulation (MM#8, 1.0). It is presented below, along with the relevant metrics. The MM#8 clone dough formulation is a modification of the MM#7 clone dough formulation that has served you so well. For purposes of this exercise, I used the Nutrition Facts for the Plantation brand of blackstrap molasses (http://www.alliedoldenglish.com/plantation.php?flavor=blackstrap), on the assumption that all blackstrap molasses products will be quite similar. For the mono- and disaccharide numbers that I use to do sucrose equivalency calculations, I assumed the generic percents for those sugars. I also assumed the same water content for the blackstrap molasses as regular molasses, which is around 21%. I would need more detailed specs to zero in on these numbers. Likewise, for the ash content of the blackstrap molasses. The ash content is related to the color and taste of the molasses.

First, a few comments about the Syrup. As the spec sheet states, it is 98.5% sucrose. That means that the Syrup will be very sweet on the palate. The solids come to 67-68%. This suggest that the water content of the Syrup is 32-33% (for my purposes, I used 32%). The ash content of the Syrup is 0.25%. That suggests a light color. By way of comparison, the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup has an ash content of 1.5 +/- 0.5%. For blackstrap molasses, I would estimate an ash content that may be 6% or more. From the photos I have seen of the Syrup and Steen's products, the Steen's is noticeably darker than the Syrup. As I was working on the new Syrup MM#8 clone dough formulation, it dawned on me that by combining the Syrup with blackstrap molasses, you are effectively making a brown sugar but in liquid form. What I don't know and can't say is what the final color of the dough and finished crust will be using the particular combination and values of the Syrup and blackstrap molasses as set forth in the MM#8 clone dough formulation below.

The Syrup MM#8 clone formulation presented below satisfies all of the criteria for an MM clone dough. The total water content of the dough (hydration calculation) is around 40%, as before. The "adjusted" hydration that takes into account the water content of the Syrup and the blackstrap molasses is 52.84%. The "effective" hydration that also takes the oil into account is 55.3%. I attempted a "sucrose equivalency" test and came up with a sucrose equivalency value of 6.72%. In my opinion, that is a value that should manifest itself as sweetness on the palate. The "sugars" and "carbohydrates" for the Syrup MM#8 dough formulation are in line with my interpretation of the MM Nutrition Facts. The "carbohydrates" are bit shy of the number I normally shoot for but it would have taken a lot more work to find the "perfect" combination of formula hydration and the amounts (percents) of the Syrup and blackstrap molasses where everything would fall exactly in line. For the flour, I assumed a high-gluten flour with a protein content of 14.2%. I don't think that it should really matter which brand of high-gluten flour to use, including bromated flours.

If you decide to try the Syrup MM#8 clone dough formulation presented below, you may have to tweak the formula hydration and also the amount of blackstap molasses to achieve the same color as Bob, the MM dough you have saved. As I have mentioned before, products like the Syrup and molasses have components that vary within a range. That can alter the amounts and performance of those products, although I suspect that these variations are not material. To the extent that you tweak the formula hydration and the amount of the blackstrap molasses to achieve a dough and crust color similar to the real MM product, you will want to note the changes in case there is a next time. I assume you will also use a bowl residue compensation.

Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup/Blackstrap Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation (MM#8, 1.0)

High-Gluten Flour (14.2%) (100%): Spring Water (49.7%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (1.50%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.46%): Sugar/Syrup* (7.5%): Blackstrap Molasses (3.5%): Total (165.26%):

313.42 g  |  11.06 oz | 0.69 lbs 155.77 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs 1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 4.7 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp 7.71 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp 23.51 g | 0.83 oz | 0.05 lbs 10.97 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684

* Sugar/Syrup = Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup
Note: The amount of dough is for a single 14" pizza using a dough ball weight of 18.27 ounces (517.95 grams); nominal thickness factor = 0.118684; no bowl residue compensation.

Metrics
Total water content of the dough as a percent of the total dough ball weight = about 40%
"Adjusted" hydration = 52.84%
"Effective" hydration = 55.3%
"Sucrose equivalency" = 6.72%

Peter

[Zing]

I tried to request spec sheets from Plantation for its molasses products but the Contact feature did not work.

From what I remember about Allied Old English, it is a medium size firm run by the Ross family and they don't have a lot of corporate trappings. A phone call may be the best way to get the info you need.

[norma427]

Norma,

Knowing of your interest in trying out an MM clone dough using the Domino Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup ("Syrup") with some blackstrap molasses, I took a stab at such a formulation (MM#8, 1.0). It is presented below, along with the relevant metrics. The MM#8 clone dough formulation is a modification of the MM#7 clone dough formulation that has served you so well. For purposes of this exercise, I used the Nutrition Facts for the Plantation brand of blackstrap molasses (http://www.alliedoldenglish.com/plantation.php?flavor=blackstrap), on the assumption that all blackstrap molasses products will be quite similar. For the mono- and disaccharide numbers that I use to do sucrose equivalency calculations, I assumed the generic percents for those sugars. I also assumed the same water content for the blackstrap molasses as regular molasses, which is around 21%. I would need more detailed specs to zero in on these numbers. Likewise, for the ash content of the blackstrap molasses. The ash content is related to the color and taste of the molasses.

First, a few comments about the Syrup. As the spec sheet states, it is 98.5% sucrose. That means that the Syrup will be very sweet on the palate. The solids come to 67-68%. This suggest that the water content of the Syrup is 32-33% (for my purposes, I used 32%). The ash content of the Syrup is 0.25%. That suggests a light color. By way of comparison, the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup has an ash content of 1.5 +/- 0.5%. For blackstrap molasses, I would estimate an ash content that may be 6% or more. From the photos I have seen of the Syrup and Steen's products, the Steen's is noticeably darker than the Syrup. As I was working on the new Syrup MM#8 clone dough formulation, it dawned on me that by combining the Syrup with blackstrap molasses, you are effectively making a brown sugar but in liquid form. What I don't know and can't say is what the final color of the dough and finished crust will be using the particular combination and values of the Syrup and blackstrap molasses as set forth in the MM#8 clone dough formulation below.

The Syrup MM#8 clone formulation presented below satisfies all of the criteria for an MM clone dough. The total water content of the dough (hydration calculation) is around 40%, as before. The "adjusted" hydration that takes into account the water content of the Syrup and the blackstrap molasses is 52.84%. The "effective" hydration that also takes the oil into account is 55.3%. I attempted a "sucrose equivalency" test and came up with a sucrose equivalency value of 6.72%. In my opinion, that is a value that should manifest itself as sweetness on the palate. The "sugars" and "carbohydrates" for the Syrup MM#8 dough formulation are in line with my interpretation of the MM Nutrition Facts. The "carbohydrates" are bit shy of the number I normally shoot for but it would have taken a lot more work to find the "perfect" combination of formula hydration and the amounts (percents) of the Syrup and blackstrap molasses where everything would fall exactly in line. For the flour, I assumed a high-gluten flour with a protein content of 14.2%. I don't think that it should really matter which brand of high-gluten flour to use, including bromated flours.

If you decide to try the Syrup MM#8 clone dough formulation presented below, you may have to tweak the formula hydration and also the amount of blackstap molasses to achieve the same color as Bob, the MM dough you have saved. As I have mentioned before, products like the Syrup and molasses have components that vary within a range. That can alter the amounts and performance of those products, although I suspect that these variations are not material. To the extent that you tweak the formula hydration and the amount of the blackstrap molasses to achieve a dough and crust color similar to the real MM product, you will want to note the changes in case there is a next time. I assume you will also use a bowl residue compensation.

Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup/Blackstrap Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation (MM#8, 1.0)

High-Gluten Flour (14.2%) (100%): Spring Water (49.7%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (1.50%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.46%): Sugar/Syrup* (7.5%): Blackstrap Molasses (3.5%): Total (165.26%):

313.42 g  |  11.06 oz | 0.69 lbs 155.77 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs 1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 4.7 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp 7.71 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp 23.51 g | 0.83 oz | 0.05 lbs 10.97 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684

* Sugar/Syrup = Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup
Note: The amount of dough is for a single 14" pizza using a dough ball weight of 18.27 ounces (517.95 grams); nominal thickness factor = 0.118684; no bowl residue compensation.

Metrics
Total water content of the dough as a percent of the total dough ball weight = about 40%
"Adjusted" hydration = 52.84%
"Effective" hydration = 55.3%
"Sucrose equivalency" = 6.72%

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for setting-forth another formulation for me to try. It sounds very interesting that the MM#8 formulation is a modification of the MM#7 formulation I like so well. 

I sure don’t know how you did the calculations for the cane juice syrup and the blackstrap molasses to be in line with the MM nutrition facts, but your calculations sure have worked so far. 

I will try the Syrup MM #8 formulation this coming weekend.  I am not sure if I can find the Plantation blackstrap molasses, but know I can find the Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses or the Brer Rabbit blackstrap molasses in one of the near supermarkets.  I guess that won’t make much of any difference.  I will watch the hydration to see if that has to be tweaked and also try to match the color of Bob with the amount and brand of blackstrap molasses I try.  I will use a bowl residue compensation on the expanded dough calculation tool. 

I tried to use the contact feature at the bottom of the page for specs for the Plantation blackstrap molasses, but so far have not heard back from them. 

I never would have thought by combining the cane juice syrup and blackstrap molasses that I would be making a brown sugar in liquid form.  How did that dawn on you?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I never would have thought by combining the cane juice syrup and blackstrap molasses that I would be making a brown sugar in liquid form.  How did that dawn on you?

Norma,

As I mentioned in Reply 940 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165477/topicseen.html#msg165477, light brown sugar appears to contain about 3.5% molasses and dark brown sugar appears to contain about 6.5% molasses. While there are some raw, minimally processed sugars that have a brown tint (e.g., Demerera), commercial brown sugars are made by adding molasses to refined white sugars. What Domino appears to have done is to take evaporated cane syrup, most likely at the first boil stage, and add enough water to it to make a very sweet sugar syrup with a Brix value of 67-68%. Adding some molasses to that syrup, and you end up with something that is, in essence, a brown sugar syrup.

For your information, when I did the calculations to come up with the MM#8 dough formulation in my last post, I started by using the expanded dough calculating tool to come up a test dough formulation that looked like it is was in the ballpark from the standpoint of satisfying the MM criteria. This "sixth" sense comes from working with the various molasses and molasses-like products and studying their specs. I then calculated the sum of the formula hydration, the moisture content of the flour, the water content of the Syrup, and the water content of the blackstrap molasses. That sum had to be equal to about 40% of the total dough ball weight. The 40% figure is what you and Chicago Bob came up with when you conducted the hydration bake tests on a real MM dough, and that I had previously come up with independently from a hydration bake test that I conducted with one of my MM test clone doughs, and that I concluded from my analysis was close to what MM might have been using. Once I met the 40% target, which took analyzing several sets of data on an iterative basis, I then calculated the "adjusted" hydration and the "effective" hydration, to be sure they were workable values for an MM type dough. But even after passing both tests, I also had to satisfy two other tests. The "sugars" and "carbohydrates" had to have certain values based on my analysis and interpretation of the MM Nutrition Facts. What you see as the MM#8 dough formulation in my last post is a formulation that met all of the above tests. As you might expect, there are other possible combinations of numbers that will meet all of the tests, but it can take a lot of work to find the "best" one. I think my numbers should work but I won't know for sure until you give the MM#8 formulation a test drive.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

As I mentioned in Reply 940 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165477/topicseen.html#msg165477, light brown sugar appears to contain about 3.5% molasses and dark brown sugar appears to contain about 6.5% molasses. While there are some raw, minimally processed sugars that have a brown tint (e.g., Demerera), commercial brown sugars are made by adding molasses to refined white sugars. What Domino appears to have done is to take evaporated cane syrup, most likely at the first boil stage, and add enough water to it to make a very sweet sugar syrup with a Brix value of 67-68%. Adding some molasses to that syrup, and you end up with something that is, in essence, a brown sugar syrup.

For your information, when I did the calculations to come up with the MM#8 dough formulation in my last post, I started by using the expanded dough calculating tool to come up a test dough formulation that looked like it is was in the ballpark from the standpoint of satisfying the MM criteria. This "sixth" sense comes from working with the various molasses and molasses-like products and studying their specs. I then calculated the sum of the formula hydration, the moisture content of the flour, the water content of the Syrup, and the water content of the blackstrap molasses. That sum had to be equal to about 40% of the total dough ball weight. The 40% figure is what you and Chicago Bob came up with when you conducted the hydration bake tests on a real MM dough, and that I had previously come up with independently from a hydration bake test that I conducted with one of my MM test clone doughs, and that I concluded from my analysis was close to what MM might have been using. Once I met the 40% target, which took analyzing several sets of data on an iterative basis, I then calculated the "adjusted" hydration and the "effective" hydration, to be sure they were workable values for an MM type dough. But even after passing both tests, I also had to satisfy two other tests. The "sugars" and "carbohydrates" had to have certain values based on my analysis and interpretation of the MM Nutrition Facts. What you see as the MM#8 dough formulation in my last post is a formulation that met all of the above tests. As you might expect, there are other possible combinations of numbers that will meet all of the tests, but it can take a lot of work to find the "best" one. I think my numbers should work but I won't know for sure until you give the MM#8 formulation a test drive.

Peter

Peter,

I almost forgot about all what you posted at Reply 940.  I now understand what you meant that it dawned on you that the cane juice syrup (with added water) in combination with the adding some molasses to the syrup is then a brown sugar syrup.  It was clever of you to figure that out. 

I can understand your “sixth” sense coming in from working with all the various molasses and molasses-like products and studying the specs.  Interesting that the sum of the formula hydration, moisture content of the flour, water content of the syrup and water had to equal to about 40% of the total dough ball weight.  I keep forgetting half of what is posted in this thread. I recall you had based the hydration on Chicago Bob’s hydration test and my hydration test, but forgot about your previous hydration test that you conducted with one of your MM test clone dough balls.  I couldn’t ever imagine trying to give the sugars and carbohydrates certain values with the MM Nutrition Facts and calculating the “adjusted“ hydration and “effective“ hydration, but I see you did meet all the tests when you set forth the MM#8 formulation.  That all had to take a long while.

This thread has been an eye opening thread for me.  I will give your MM#8 formulation a test drive.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

What complicates the math and calculations is the molasses. For example, if you said that you would like to use only the Brer Rabbit blackstrap molasses, which has only 9 grams of sugars per tablespoon (20-21 grams), I'm sure that I could come up with a formulation that passes the 40% hydration test and has a workable "adjusted" hydration value and "effective" hydration value. However, it would not pass the sugars and carbohydrates tests. If you add enough of the blackstrap molasses to yield the proper sweetness, the dough and crust will be very dark and, in addition, the crust will have a flavor that some people describe as bitter. In fact, while some people use blackstrap molasses for nutritional reasons, most blackstrap molasses is used for animal feed and other non-human applications. If you use just enough of the blackstrap molasses to get the color of Bob, your sample of the real MM dough, the finished crust won't be sweet enough. The reality is that in order to rule in or rule out of contention any given molasses or similar product (like the Steen's), you have to do the calculations I described.

I have also discovered that colors of molasses and cane sugar syrups and blends can be deceiving. If you look at all of such products in their containers, they all look quite dark. As you put samples of those products on, say, a white sheet of paper, you start to notice the differences in colors. But the relative colors can still be somewhat deceiving. To do a better comparison, you would have to put--and uniformly spread--a fixed amount of each product on a surface area of the same size. For example, you might put 1/4 teaspoon of each product on a surface area of 2" x 2" or maybe 3" x 3". You would then see the progression from light to medium to dark. If all of the colors are natural and the products do not include colorants like caramel, then it is quite possible that the colors of the test patches will track their sugars and carbohydrates content (the lightest ones will have the most sugars and carbohydrates and the darkest ones will have the least sugars and carbohydrates). The matches might not be perfect because there are variations from one molasses or cane sugar batch to another but still might be close enough to group them by boil (first, second, final).

If we had the specs of the molasses product that MM uses, I think the ballgame would be over. That information, along with the 40% hydration number, would get us very close to the MM dough in my opinion. But, for now, the best we can do is do the calculations for each type of molasses or cane sugar product to get something that approximates the MM product as best we can. In many respects, I think that we have come up with formulations that are quite good in their own right, maybe better in many cases than the MM products that members have sampled.

I agree with you that this thread has been a real eyeopener. In my opinion, there is no other thread that can match it in terms of the challenges, obstacles, and number and diversity of topics that we have had to learn quite a bit about, not to mention the kinds of tests that we had to come up with to help get us to the finish line.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

What complicates the math and calculations is the molasses. For example, if you said that you would like to use only the Brer Rabbit blackstrap molasses, which has only 9 grams of sugars per tablespoon (20-21 grams), I'm sure that I could come up with a formulation that passes the 40% hydration test and has a workable "adjusted" hydration value and "effective" hydration value. However, it would not pass the sugars and carbohydrates tests. If you add enough of the blackstrap molasses to yield the proper sweetness, the dough and crust will be very dark and, in addition, the crust will have a flavor that some people describe as bitter. In fact, while some people use blackstrap molasses for nutritional reasons, most blackstrap molasses is used for animal feed and other non-human applications. If you use just enough of the blackstrap molasses to get the color of Bob, your sample of the real MM dough, the finished crust won't be sweet enough. The reality is that in order to rule in or rule out of contention any given molasses or similar product (like the Steen's), you have to do the calculations I described.

I have also discovered that colors of molasses and cane sugar syrups and blends can be deceiving. If you look at all of such products in their containers, they all look quite dark. As you put samples of those products on, say, a white sheet of paper, you start to notice the differences in colors. But the relative colors can still be somewhat deceiving. To do a better comparison, you would have to put--and uniformly spread--a fixed amount of each product on a surface area of the same size. For example, you might put 1/4 teaspoon of each product on a surface area of 2" x 2" or maybe 3" x 3". You would then see the progression from light to medium to dark. If all of the colors are natural and the products do not include colorants like caramel, then it is quite possible that the colors of the test patches will track their sugars and carbohydrates content (the lightest ones will have the most sugars and carbohydrates and the darkest ones will have the least sugars and carbohydrates). The matches might not be perfect because there are variations from one molasses or cane sugar batch to another but still might be close enough to group them by boil (first, second, final).

If we had the specs of the molasses product that MM uses, I think the ballgame would be over. That information, along with the 40% hydration number, would get us very close to the MM dough in my opinion. But, for now, the best we can do is do the calculations for each type of molasses or cane sugar product to get something that approximates the MM product as best we can. In many respects, I think that we have come up with formulations that are quite good in their own right, maybe better in many cases than the MM products that members have sampled.

I agree with you that this thread has been a real eyeopener. In my opinion, there is no other thread that can match it in terms of the challenges, obstacles, and number and diversity of topics that we have had to learn quite a bit about, not to mention the kinds of tests that we had to come up with to help get us to the finish line.

Peter

Peter,

I understand that what complicates the math and calculations on this thread is the molasses or molasses-products in all the MM clone dough formulations you set forth. 

I didn’t look at the amount of grams of sugars per tablespoon of the Brer Rabbit blackstrap molasses, so I had no idea of the amount of sugars in that product.  I have to look at the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses and see where it stands in comparison with Brer Rabbit and Plantation blackstrap molasses products.  I sent Golden Barrel an email to see if I can get the specs for their blackstrap molasses product.

I agree, that even the samples of molasses I have been given and the ones that I bought all can give the final dough a little bit different color when using the MM#7 formulation.  It is hard to exactly match Bob the dough ball. I haven’t tried all the molasses products in the MM#7 formulation, but have tried different ones.  When I have more time I will put all the molasses products I have on a sheet of white paper and try to spread ¼ teaspoon uniformly in the same size surface area to be able to see the differences in color.  To my naked eye it is still hard to see much differences in colors of some of the molasses products I have spread on white paper.  I probably didn’t use exactly the same amount of molasses to spread on the white paper.  I can understand that the lighter the color when spread over the same surface area would then have the highest amount of sugars.

I also think if we had the specs of the molasses product MM uses the ballgame would be over.  I don’t know how we are ever going to even find exactly what brand of molasses MM uses. 

I think you have done a great job in doing all the calculations with all the molasses products and producing different clone MM dough formulation which I think are just as good or better than MM.  Even if we never find the molasses product MM uses, I am quite satisfied with the MM#7 clone formulation.  It consistently gives a great pizza. 

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I don’t know if you saw this article before or not from Florida Crystals about how they go though the natural mill process for the evaporated cane juice.  http://www.floridacrystals.com/content/191/natural-mill-process.aspx  I wonder why after the evaporation process (after the clarified juice is subjected to fine filtration to remove any remaining solids and to sterilize the juice) then the cane juice syrup is then “seeded” with tiny sugar crystals and carefully boiled.  If cane juice is supposed to be pure why would tiny sugar crystals have to be added?  I wonder if other first boil molasses products made from sugarcane are manufactured the same way, except for the drying process.  Why wouldn’t that golden molasses product then be almost like plain sugar, but without the same amount of sucrose?  I have a hard time understanding just how healthy sugarcane really is or products made from it.

I know Florida Crystal manufactures the liquid cane juice syrup for Domino’s to distribute, because that is what was on the back of the spec sheet for Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup.

Why couldn’t any big manufacturer also be able do the same thing for MM and just add more molasses in the formulation with cane juice syrup or even go about the manufacturing process different to have higher amounts of sucrose in the final product for MM for a lighter molasses product?

I know MM is probably not getting their molasses product from Florida Crystals or Domino.  I think this thread is making my brain slowly die or is getting it too clogged up with all the information. 

Sorry to always keep asking questions, that I don’t understand anything about. Cane sugar and what is produced (molasses and other products) from it is also too complicated for me.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I have been on the Florida Crystals website before, and am familiar with its relationship to Domino, but I have not read the article you cited before. However, I have read similar articles. As I understand it, the small crystals of sugar aid in the formation of larger crystals when the seed crystals and the sugar syrup come in contact with each other. The seed sugar crystals are kept small so that the final crystals are not too large. Apparently, this is a very common method. Whether the seed sugar crystals are "pure" or "refined" I have no idea. They could be the same as the evaporated sugar crystals but of smaller particle size.

It is indeed possible to combine a product like the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup with molasses to come up with a final product that could be used to make an MM dough. In essence, that would be a product such as produced by Golden Barrel and sold as the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. As you know, that product is made from cane juice in natural form (not evaporated and then turned into a syrup) and blackstrap molasses. The problem with the Golden Barrel product as a candidate for an MM dough is that it contains too much blackstrap molasses. As a result, you will usually be unable to use more than about 10-12% of that product before the color of the dough surpasses that of a real MM dough. Also, at that amount of the product, the sugars will not be high enough. By contrast, with a pure cane syrup such as the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, you can use up to about 16-18% and not have color issues, although at those levels there may be too much sugars and carbohydrates. That product would be a good candidate for blending with a molasses product.

The Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup is essentially all sucrose, with a small amount of ash that gives it a slightly different taste and a golden color. I have tended to shy away from products such as the Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup for MM clone purposes because of the "refined white sugar" issue. As you know, from its inception in 1974 when a few colleges students started MM, they have said that they use molasses and no refined white sugars in their dough or sauce. Much has been written before on this thread on that issue, as noted, for example, at Reply 363 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157008/topicseen.html#msg157008. Moreover, Melody at MM corporate told me that MM was likely to get away from using the term "refined", as I noted at Reply 681 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg159674/topicseen.html#msg159674. Maybe Melody knows something but is not at liberty to tell the public. It seems that these days the word "refined" is a dirty word to some people, whereas "raw", "pure" and "natural" are not. But for all we know, MM could now be using a product like the Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup along with some molasses. And I can tell you that I would not have any problem in coming up with an MM clone dough formulation with that combination of ingredients that would pass all of the tests I conduct. In essence, that is what I tried to do with the MM#8 dough clone formulation, except that I used blackstrap molasses for that formulation. When you test drive that formulation, we will have a better idea as to the coloration issue and/or whether another form of molasses might be a better choice.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I have been on the Florida Crystals website before, and am familiar with its relationship to Domino, but I have not read the article you cited before. However, I have read similar articles. As I understand it, the small crystals of sugar aid in the formation of larger crystals when the seed crystals and the sugar syrup come in contact with each other. The seed sugar crystals are kept small so that the final crystals are not too large. Apparently, this is a very common method. Whether the seed sugar crystals are "pure" or "refined" I have no idea. They could be the same as the evaporated sugar crystals but of smaller particle size.

It is indeed possible to combine a product like the Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup with molasses to come up with a final product that could be used to make an MM dough. In essence, that would be a product such as produced by Golden Barrel and sold as the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. As you know, that product is made from cane juice in natural form (not evaporated and then turned into a syrup) and blackstrap molasses. The problem with the Golden Barrel product as a candidate for an MM dough is that it contains too much blackstrap molasses. As a result, you will usually be unable to use more than about 10-12% of that product before the color of the dough surpasses that of a real MM dough. Also, at that amount of the product, the sugars will not be high enough. By contrast, with a pure cane syrup such as the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, you can use up to about 16-18% and not have color issues, although at those levels there may be too much sugars and carbohydrates. That product would be a good candidate for blending with a molasses product.

The Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup is essentially all sucrose, with a small amount of ash that gives it a slightly different taste and a golden color. I have tended to shy away from products such as the Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup for MM clone purposes because of the "refined white sugar" issue. As you know, from its inception in 1974 when a few colleges students started MM, they have said that they use molasses and no refined white sugars in their dough or sauce. Much has been written before on this thread on that issue, as noted, for example, at Reply 363 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157008/topicseen.html#msg157008. Moreover, Melody at MM corporate told me that MM was likely to get away from using the term "refined", as I noted at Reply 681 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg159674/topicseen.html#msg159674. Maybe Melody knows something but is not at liberty to tell the public. It seems that these days the word "refined" is a dirty word to some people, whereas "raw", "pure" and "natural" are not. But for all we know, MM could now be using a product like the Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup along with some molasses. And I can tell you that I would not have any problem in coming up with an MM clone dough formulation with that combination of ingredients that would pass all of the tests I conduct. In essence, that is what I tried to do with the MM#8 dough clone formulation, except that I used blackstrap molasses for that formulation. When you test drive that formulation, we will have a better idea as to the coloration issue and/or whether another form of molasses might be a better choice.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining to me and anyone else that is interested about what you understand is the small crystals of sugars aid in the formation of larger crystals when the seed crystals and sugar syrup come in contact with each other.  I didn’t know that is a very common method before.  I was wondering if the seed sugar crystals were pure or refined. 

I knew it was possible to combine cane juice with blackstrap molasses like Golden Barrel does, but also know their amount of blackstrap molasses is too much for the color of a MM dough ball.  10-12% is such a small gap from the amount of Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses I am using in MM#7 formulation to get the color right of a MM dough.

 I recall since MM started its pizza business in 1974 they have stated that they use molasses and no refined white sugars in their dough or sauce.  I also recall Melody telling you that MM was likely to get away from using the term refined.  I don’t know how they will do that.  I can understand the word refined might be a dirty word to some people, whereas the words raw, pure, and natural are not.  I still think all of those words are like a slippery slope in that they can be interchanged at will, especially when it includes any molasses product.

Norma

[norma427]

Oscar Brunner send me the spec sheet today for the Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses.

I don’t recall ever seeing that any molasses product should be refrigerated after opening, but on the Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses spec it says if the container is opened then refrigeration is recommended.  I would think the blackstrap molasses would be really thick after refrigeration.  I never refrigerated any of my molasses products.

The ash content value looks pretty high to me.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thank you for the spec sheet on the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses. You are correct about the amount of ash. I thought it would be around 6% or higher but I didn't expect 10-15%. The sugars are low, about 6-10 grams for a tablespoon (about 20-21 grams).

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I couldn’t do the calculations to see how little the sugars were for a tablespoon from the specs.  Thanks for telling me how low the sugars are. 

I will let it up to you if I should try the Brer Rabbit Blackstrap molasses or the Golden Barrel Blackstrap molasses in the MM#8 formulation you gave me.  I will also look to see if any supermarkets near me sell the Plantation Blackstrap molasses on Saturday.

I won’t be mixing the MM#8 formulation until Saturday or Sunday, so you can think it over which blackstrap molasses product you want me try. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I will let it up to you if I should try the Brer Rabbit Blackstrap molasses or the Golden Barrel Blackstrap molasses in the MM#8 formulation you gave me.  I will also look to see if any supermarkets near me sell the Plantation Blackstrap molasses on Saturday.

I won’t be mixing the MM#8 formulation until Saturday or Sunday, so you can think it over which blackstrap molasses product you want me try.  

Norma,

I don't think that it really matters which brand of blackstrap molasses you use. However, it appears that the Plantation blackstrap molasses is somewhat similar in sweetness as the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses. I nonetheless calculated the sucrose equivalency for the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses and got a range of 6.36%-7.15% (based on sucrose at 30-46% and invert at 6-22%). This compares with the value of 6.72% that I calculated for the Plantation blackstrap molasses (based solely on the label information, not a range of sucrose and invert values). I could not do a similar calculation for the Brer Rabbit Blackstrap Molasses because the specs for that product are not specific enough as to the sucrose and invert. However, I suspect that the sucrose equivalency for that product is similar to the other values.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I don't think that it really matters which brand of blackstrap molasses you use. However, it appears that the Plantation blackstrap molasses is somewhat similar in sweetness as the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses. I nonetheless calculated the sucrose equivalency for the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses and got a range of 6.36%-7.15% (based on sucrose at 30-46% and invert at 6-22%). This compares with the value of 6.72% that I calculated for the Plantation blackstrap molasses (based solely on the label information, not a range of sucrose and invert values). I could not do a similar calculation for the Brer Rabbit Blackstrap Molasses because the specs for that product are not specific enough as to the sucrose and invert. However, I suspect that the sucrose equivalency for that product is similar to the other values.

Peter

Peter,

It is good to know that the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses compares to the sucrose equivalency in the Plantation Blackstrap Molasses based on the label information for the Plantation Blackstrap Molasses.  I probably will use the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses in the MM#8 formulation for the first attempt.

Norma

[Jet_deck]

Peter,

I also think if we had the specs of the molasses product MM uses the ballgame would be over.  I don’t know how we are ever going to even find exactly what brand of molasses MM uses. 

We can handle that task.  I'm pretty sure. 

[norma427]

We can handle that task.  I'm pretty sure. 

Gene,

Glad to hear you think we will be able to handle that task.  Hopefully you are right.  This has been a long thread and most of it was searching for the right molasses and Peter doing calculations all the time.

Norma

[norma427]

This is a picture of the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses I used in the MM#8 formulation Peter set-forth.  The Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses tastes good in my opinion.  The final dough ball beside the dough ball Bob looks almost the same color, but seems a little more yellow in color.

Norma