Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[norma427]

Norma,

I'm glad that the MM#8 clone dough formulation worked out well for you. I felt confident about the likelihood of success, because the numbers for MM#8 made for a good fit, but I wasn't certain about the degree of sweetness or the final crust color. I thought the sucrose equivalency numbers suggested detectable sweetness but I had no way of knowing what the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses would do in terms of color when combined with the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup, which itself imparts some color. I know that your supply of the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup is somewhat limited, but it should be possible to both increase the sweetness and the color to get them closer to a real MM dough. You would be the principal beneficiary of such changes, since you are most likely the only member to have a supply of the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup. However, if you would like to try a version of MM#8 with more Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup (for more sweetness) and more color (more Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses), to either offer at market or to use up your existing supply of the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup, I may be able to come up with an improved MM#8.

I know that you have made only one MM#8 clone pizza, but can you compare it with the many MM#7 clone pizzas you have made?

I think the main value of the MM#8 experiment is that it confirms that there are many ways to skin the cat. No doubt, there are many MM clone dough formulations that will work. But there are also many that will not if the objective is to get the same sweetness and color of an MM crust. And the MM clone dough formulations that are most likely to do the best are those that meet the set of numbers I have come up with to evaluate prospective MM clones, including the 40% hydration number, the other hydration numbers, and the values and amounts of ingredients that fit the MM Nutrition Facts. In this vein, I might add that I have recently been playing around with the nutrition facts calculator at the SelfNutritionData website, and now believe that there may be less oil than we have been testing. There is also more salt but I have known this for some time and only chose to use less in order to emphasize the sweetness over the saltiness. I should hasten to add that the differences are unlikely to be detectable. So, such changes will not produce a night and day difference. It is also still possible that the numbers may still need more tweaking only because the database used by SelfNutritionData does not contain some of the ingredients we have been testing.

Peter

Peter,

You have become very good at formulating different formulations for this thread since you have been researching different molasses products, “sucrose equivalency”, Nutrition Facts and many other things for the MM clone formulations. 

I really wouldn’t want any more color (would like to see less color in the dough and crumb) for the dough if you would formulate another MM formulation, but would like to see if a little more sweetness could be achieved.  You really don’t have to go to the bother of trying to formulate another MM clone dough just for me.  I always like to see what happens, but really don’t need to change formulations.

To answer your question about how I liked the one pizza using the MM#8 clone dough formulation, in comparison to using different molasses products in the MM#7 clone formulation, I did really like it because the sweetness in the crust seemed almost right for me.  It had just a hint of sweetness in the crust.  The oven spring was almost the same as some of the MM#7 clone pizzas and the crumb was still moist.  The bottom crust on the MM#8 clone dough formulation also browned the same.  If there are any other specific questions you wanted to ask me about the pizza using your MM#8 clone dough formulation for the MM clone pizza, I will try to answer them the best I can.

I also think the value of doing the MM#8 experiment confirms that there are many ways to skin the cat.  I think there could be many formulations that would produce a decent MM clone pizza.  You have been doing a great job on this thread in understanding everything and then being able to put everything you have in your brain into giving anyone good clone MM formulations.  I still don’t know how you do all of this, but it takes a lot of brains, which you do have.

Interesting that since you have been playing around with the nutrition facts calculator at the SelfNutrition website, you now believe that there is less oil than we have been testing and also more salt. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I guess you would have to say that it is a labor of love, since there is no other logical explanation. But the key that unlocked many of the secrets was the hydration bake tests that you, Chicago Bob and I conducted and coming up with the 40% number. Without that, this thread would have ended long ago, quite possibly in a whimper. In fact, when I went back through all of the MM clone dough formulations I created and studied them to get more insight, it was about the time of the original hydration bake tests that things started to become much clearer to me. It didn't help the calculations and math any, because of all of the different possible molasses products with their own uniques sets of numbers and characteristics and variations, but I at least had a "system" that I could deploy to come up with MM clone dough formulations to test. That has saved me a lot of time spent on formulations that are unlikely to work. For example, you can't use, say, blackstrap molasses, all by itself. It isn't sweet enough and it is likely to produce a dough and crust that is too dark. Yet, if you go to the other extreme and use, say, the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, which is not technically a molasses product (even though some experts consider it as such), you need a lot of that product to get the desired color for the dough and finished crust but the sweetness is too high and more sucrose-like (sugary) than complex.

I have been awaiting the results of CDNpielover's next MM clone pizza using the Crosby's Fancy Molasses since that product seems to be closer to the real thing for MM clone purposes than most of the other molasses products that have been mentioned and tested in the course of this thread. I believe that most of the retail level molasses products need help on the sweetness side, not on the color side. I don't know if the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup is the best candidate for that, and I don't know if that is an "unrefined white sugar", but it seems to be a good way of increasing the sweetness side without amplifying the color side.

When I have a chance over the next day or so, I will take a stab at modifying MM#8 to increase the sweetness and to reduce the color. I might also give you the baker's percents for the salt and oil. Because of the higher salt level, I may have to further increase the amount of the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup to offset the muting of the sweetness contribution by that product by the higher salt level.

Do you still have plans to offer an MM clone pizza at market at this point?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I guess you would have to say that it is a labor of love, since there is no other logical explanation. But the key that unlocked many of the secrets was the hydration bake tests that you, Chicago Bob and I conducted and coming up with the 40% number. Without that, this thread would have ended long ago, quite possibly in a whimper. In fact, when I went back through all of the MM clone dough formulations I created and studied them to get more insight, it was about the time of the original hydration bake tests that things started to become much clearer to me. It didn't help the calculations and math any, because of all of the different possible molasses products with their own uniques sets of numbers and characteristics and variations, but I at least had a "system" that I could deploy to come up with MM clone dough formulations to test. That has saved me a lot of time spent on formulations that are unlikely to work. For example, you can't use, say, blackstrap molasses, all by itself. It isn't sweet enough and it is likely to produce a dough and crust that is too dark. Yet, if you go to the other extreme and use, say, the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, which is not technically a molasses product (even though some experts consider it as such), you need a lot of that product to get the desired color for the dough and finished crust but the sweetness is too high and more sucrose-like (sugary) than complex.

I have been awaiting the results of CDNpielover's next MM clone pizza using the Crosby's Fancy Molasses since that product seems to be closer to the real thing for MM clone purposes than most of the other molasses products that have been mentioned and tested in the course of this thread. I believe that most of the retail level molasses products need help on the sweetness side, not on the color side. I don't know if the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup is the best candidate for that, and I don't know if that is an "unrefined white sugar", but it seems to be a good way of increasing the sweetness side without amplifying the color side.

When I have a chance over the next day or so, I will take a stab at modifying MM#8 to increase the sweetness and to reduce the color. I might also give you the baker's percents for the salt and oil. Because of the higher salt level, I may have to further increase the amount of the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup to offset the muting of the sweetness contribution by that product by the higher salt level.

Do you still have plans to offer an MM clone pizza at market at this point?

Peter

Peter,

Lol, yes, I guess this thread is about a labor of love just like Mellow Mushroom theme’s in the hippy days, with Chicago Bob, you and I doing the hydration tests and then you going on from there.  I guess it almost always takes some team work to be able to help clone any pizza dough.  I can understand all those different molasses products sure could give some problems in their unique sets of numbers, characteristics and variations.  I am glad you found a system then to deploy to come up with the MM clone dough formulations to test. 

I also will be anxious to see how the results of CDNpielover’s next MM clone pizza does in terms of color and sweetness in the crust. 

Thanks for saying you will take another stab at modifying the MM#8 formulation for me. 

I am offering the MM clone pizzas at market, but so far they really aren’t taking off.  I don’t know if it because my customers, or potential customers, don’t like the looks of the MM clone pizzas or if they just like the looks of the NY style pizzas better.  Some customers have asked me if the MM clone dough pizza are whole wheat and I have to tell them no.  I think some customers would be interested in a part whole wheat pizzas.  When it gets nearer to summer, I am going to try and offer some MM clone pretzels for sale with sides for dipping.  I don’t know how that will do either.

Norma

[norma427]

I scrapped what oil I could off the oil test that I refroze.  The weight of the oil scrapped off this time weighed 1.03 grams, but there still was what looked like some oil on top of the frozen broth, some on the knife, and some on the measuring spoon.  I wonder if there isn’t a better way of trying to remove the oil from the top of the glass container, since my weight were was off from the last time I did the oil test at Reply 154 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg176094.html#msg176094  Maybe a clean pipette or eye dropper could be used to siphon off the oil without freezing.  I have no idea of how that would work.  It seems like some of the sticky oil wants to get stuck to the frozen broth.  I even used my small knife and could not get it all off.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thanks for repeating the oil test. I don't have any ideas at the moment for how to remove the oil off of the frozen tundra but it does seem that the first test was more reliable than the second test. If I can think of a possible solution and test it out, I will let you know.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I have set forth below the modified version of MM#8 (MM#8, 2.0) to increase the amount of the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup and to reduce the amount of the Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses. I have also presented the related metrics for the modified MM#8 formulation. For the latest calculations, I also adjusted for the ash content of the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup and the Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses. So, the metrics might not correlate as closely with the metrics for MM#8, 1.0. With all of the variables, one can never be quite sure of the accuracy of the values. However, the variations in values shouldn't be material.

Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup/Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation (MM#8, 2.0).

KASL High-Gluten Flour (14.2%) (100%): Spring Water (49.6%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (1.82%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.50%): Sugar/Syrup* (9%): Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses (3%): Total (165.52%):

312.93 g  |  11.04 oz | 0.69 lbs 155.21 g  |  5.47 oz | 0.34 lbs 1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 5.7 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp 4.69 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp 28.16 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs 9.39 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684

*Sugar/Syrup = Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup
Note: The amount of dough is for a single 14" pizza using a dough ball weight of 18.27 ounces (517.95 grams); nominal thickness factor = 0.118684; no bowl residue compensation.

Metrics
Total water content of the dough as a percent of the total dough ball weight = about 40.35%
"Adjusted" hydration = 52.78%
"Effective" hydration = 54.28%
"Sucrose equivalency" = 7.15%

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I have set forth below the modified version of MM#8 (MM#8, 2.0) to increase the amount of the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup and to reduce the amount of the Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses. I have also presented the related metrics for the modified MM#8 formulation. For the latest calculations, I also adjusted for the ash content of the Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup and the Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses. So, the metrics might not correlate as closely with the metrics for MM#8, 1.0. With all of the variables, one can never be quite sure of the accuracy of the values. However, the variations in values shouldn't be material.

Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup/Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses MM Clone Dough Formulation (MM#8, 2.0).

KASL High-Gluten Flour (14.2%) (100%): Spring Water (49.6%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (1.82%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.50%): Sugar/Syrup* (9%): Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses (3%): Total (165.52%):

312.93 g  |  11.04 oz | 0.69 lbs 155.21 g  |  5.47 oz | 0.34 lbs 1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 5.7 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp 4.69 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp 28.16 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs 9.39 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684

*Sugar/Syrup = Domino Golden Granulated Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup
Note: The amount of dough is for a single 14" pizza using a dough ball weight of 18.27 ounces (517.95 grams); nominal thickness factor = 0.118684; no bowl residue compensation.

Metrics
Total water content of the dough as a percent of the total dough ball weight = about 40.35%
"Adjusted" hydration = 52.78%
"Effective" hydration = 54.28%
"Sucrose equivalency" = 7.15%

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for setting forth the MM#8 (2.0) clone version using Domino Golden Evaporated Cane Juice Syrup and Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses.  You sure did that fast.  I will use the expanded dough calculation tool and add a bowl residue compensation.  I will mix the MM#8 (2.0) clone dough over the weekend.

Norma

[CDNpielover]

I have been awaiting the results of CDNpielover's next MM clone pizza using the Crosby's Fancy Molasses since that product seems to be closer to the real thing for MM clone purposes than most of the other molasses products that have been mentioned and tested in the course of this thread. I believe that most of the retail level molasses products need help on the sweetness side, not on the color side. I don't know if the Domino Golden Cane Juice Syrup is the best candidate for that, and I don't know if that is an "unrefined white sugar", but it seems to be a good way of increasing the sweetness side without amplifying the color side.

Dear Peter,

I'm terribly sorry it has taken me so long.  I will be making this pie next week.     

[Pete-zza]

I'm terribly sorry it has taken me so long.  I will be making this pie next week.     

CDNpielover,

No need to apologize. We are very patient on this thread  . Whenever you are ready we will be ready.

Peter

[norma427]

I used the MM#8 (2.0) formulation to mix this dough ball.  When comparing it to Bob the dough ball it almost looks like the same color or a little lighter in color.

Norma

[norma427]

The MM#8 (2.0) clone formulation worked out well in the color of the rim and also the sweetness in the crust.  I tried to not shape the edge of the rim as I have done in the past on the MM clone doughs to see if I could get a denser flatter rim.  Most of my rims were really big, and most had bigger oven springs in the rim. I really pressed this dough out when opening the dough ball and baked for a longer time to see what would happen.  As can be seen the outside of the rim did get darker and there wasn’t as much oven spring.  I guess it is all in how the dough ball is handled when opening it how much oven spring there will be.  The inside of the rim was lighter with the MM#8 (2.0) clone formulation.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[CDNpielover]

OK I finally got around to making the dough with 17% Crosby's Fancy Molasses that Pete formulated at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg171693.html#msg171693.

I just made this and took a couple of pics.  The background is a sheet of white printer paper.

I plan to freeze this tonight, and then remove tomorrow for a 1- or 2- day rise.

Cheers!   

[norma427]

I started the gluten mass test and the oil test on a 5 ounce MM dough ball last night and finished this morning.  I used the expanded dough calculation tool to do the calculations for a 5 ounce dough ball using the MM#7 clone dough formulation with KASL and Golden Barrel Supreme baking molasses.  I also used a bowl residue compensation of 1% to be sure the test dough ball would weigh 5 ounces.  On the print out of the MM#7 clone dough formulation for a 5 ounce dough ball the weight of the vegetable (soybean) oil was 2.11 grams.  

The test 5 ounce dough mixed well by hand.  I got side-tracked doing other things and the dough ball sat at room temperature longer than I wanted it to.  I don’t think that really matters, but it did ferment pretty much. I weighed the Pyrex mixing bowl before the 2 cups of warm water was added and also after, but I don’t think those numbers are relevant.  When washing with warm water in a mixing bowl the gluten mass test is much easier than with running cold water, but I don’t know how that method compares in numbers with washing with cold running water.  The mixing bowl quickly fills up with the starches, molasses, oil, and any other substances there were in the dough ball.  The gluten mass wants to degrade quicker in this method, but the gluten does still look the same after the test.  I save the gluten mass from the test and looked at it this morning. I didn’t think ahead that this dough ball was larger in weight than the MM clone dough ball I had leftover before.  After the washing for the gluten mass test, the contents of the Pyrex bowl almost filled the drinking glass to the top of the glass. The contents were left to settle before I froze the mixture. I hummed when carrying it out to the freezer so I wouldn’t spill any of its contents last evening.  This morning I checked on the contents in the glass in the freezer and didn’t think about how much expansion there would be since the glass was almost full.  The frozen mountain did spill over the glass.  The glass was brought inside to try and scrap what I could of the oil off of the frozen mass on the top and sides of the glass.  I weighed the measuring cup before I tried to take the oil off and it weighed 18.78 grams.  After I removed what I could of the oil (maybe I also got some ice off) the oil and the measuring cup weighed 21.73 grams.  That means the weight of the oil that was scrapped off was 2.95 grams.  I think it then shows I must have also scrapped some ice off in the process.  I sure don’t think this is a reliable way of measuring oil in a dough ball, but at least I tried.

The weight of the gluten mass test was 53.21 grams or 1.873 ounces.  Those numbers really aren’t perfectly accurate because the small scale kept changing numbers as the gluten mass test sat on the scales, but there was nothing I could do about that.  I don’t know how that compares in numbers to my last test.

I think I am going to let the oil test out at room temperature to see what happens.

Norma

Edit:  I meant to post that before the oil was put into the measuring cup I weighed it and it weighed 18.78 grams.  After the oil was put into the measuring cup I measured both the measuring cup and oil and it weighed 21.73 grams.  That is how I came to the number of weight for the oil of 2.95 grams. 

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma