Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[Pete-zza]

Now that we have tried and/or assessed several different cane syrup/molasses products, I decided to categorize them for purposes of further discussion. As noted below, there are five categories, as follows: 100% Pure Cane Syrup; Cane Syrup/Molasses Blend; First Boil Molasses; Second Boil Molasses; and Third/Final Boil Molasses. For each of the products, I have indicated the Sugars, and, where the data permitted, the Brix and Ash values. To compare apples with apples, I normalized the Sugars on a 100 grams sample basis, which is the method used by the companies that sell the cane syrup/molasses products on a wholesale or foodservice basis, such as Domino, Groeb Farms and Crosby’s. The Brix values denote the total solids for the products noted and from which one can derive the moisture contents of the products. The Brix values are needed in order to do many of the calculations I have previously discussed to arrive at the total water content of the MM clone doughs we have been investigating.

In some cases, where I did not have complete data, I used estimates, and I so noted. To denote the products that are available at retail, either through stores or online, I used asterisks. As can readily be seen, that represents most of the products listed. If I have missed anything in my list, those noting any omissions should feel free, of course, to bring the omissions to my attention so that I can correct or update the list.

As can be seen by studying the list, as one goes down the list, the Sugars quantities go down, and the Ash quantities, which are related to flavor and color, go up. What we have been trying to determine is which product has the correct amount of Sugars and the correct color as to provide the right balance between sweetness in the finished crust and a color that mimics the color of a real MM dough and crust. Also, when used in an MM clone dough, that dough must satisfy the MM Nutrition Facts.

I originally thought that Mellow Mushroom might be using a product like the Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup. Although Steen’s does not call that product a ”molasses” product, it is an “open pit” product that some people, even some experts in the field, do refer to as “molasses”. I no longer believe that MM is using a product like the Steen’s product. The Steen’s product is too sweet and its color is too light. In order to get the desired degree of coloration in the dough and the final crust, one would have to use too much of the Steen’s product and, in so doing, the dough would not satisfy the MM Nutrition Facts based on my analysis. The Sugars would be too high.

At this point, I would also rule out the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses as a likely product that MM would use. The reason is that the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses is too dark because of the blackstrap molasses. By the time that one gets the desired Sugars quantity, the dough and the finished crust are too dark. However, this shouldn’t rule out the possibility that MM is using a blend of cane sugar syrup and a lighter colored molasses.

For similar reasons, I would rule out the Second Boil and Third/Final Boil Molasses products. They contain too little Sugars and they are too dark, as is evidenced by the higher Ash numbers (unfortunately, I do not have the Ash values for the Third/Final Boil Molasses product but I do know that their Ash values are high). The Third/Final Boil Molasses products might have some of the best flavors but won’t satisfy the MM Nutrition Facts. 

I might interject as this point, that it is possible to supplement the Second and Third/Final Boil Molasses products with other sweeteners to increase the Sugars while, at the same time, getting a lighter color in the dough and final crust. Such sweeteners might include honey, raw cane (Turbinado) sugar, malts, sorghum syrup, or light or dark brown sugars. However, such combinations would not meet the requirement that they be free of refined sugars or the requirement that they be vegan products (in the case of honey). One might also use a combination of the Domino Golden Granulated Cane Juice and blackstrap molasses as Norma used with the MM #8 clone dough formulation. I did not include this combination in the list below since it was one that Norma asked be created, not a commercially available one. But, that said, that combination appears to produce good results.

Having ruled out most of the categories of cane syrup/molasses products, that leaves us with the First Boil Molasses products. If I had to guess based on what I have learned in the course of this thread, I would say that MM is perhaps using a molasses product that is a first boil product. One of the reasons I say this is because members have voiced different opinions as to the detectability of sweetness in the crusts of the MM pizzas that they have sampled in MM’s stores. It will also be noted from the First Boil Molasses products in the list below that the Sugars quantities can have wide ranges. That might mean that at any given time, the Sugars may be high or low. If it is low, one might not detect the sweetness; if it is high, one is more likely to detect it. I believe that this is true even if one accounts for different possible defrost/temper periods. By contrast, if one were to use a product like the Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup product in the right quantity to achieve the desired dough and crust color, the crust would always be sweet. Likewise, if one were to go down the list to the Second Boil and Third/Final Boil Molasses products to achieve the desired color, they may never produce a sweet crust.

Of the First Boil Molasses products, I think that any one of them can be used to make a credible MM clone dough, given their similar specs, but I think I would give the nod to those products that have Ash values on the lower end of the range. I believe that the Crosby Fancy (or Gold Star) Molasses, which is a Canadian product but sold on a limited scale at retail in the U.S., would be a good choice because it has high levels of Sugars but a maximum Ash value of 3.0%. However, even with the Crosby product, there are limitations. For example, I think that 17% of that product, which is a value that CDNpielover liked, may be too much and have too much Sugars and yield a dough with a color that is darker than a real MM dough and crust. I think something like 14% might be a better amount. For the other First Boil Molasses products in the list below, I think I would start with around 10-12%. As earlier noted, the resultant crust may or may not have a noticeable sweetness, just as has been noted with the real MM crusts.

As can be seen from the above discussion, there is no single MM clone dough formulation. There are many possibilities depending on the particular cane sugar syrup and/or molasses products used.

Now, for the list of the products:

100% Pure Cane Syrup
*Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup: Sugars (70 +/- 0.3 grams), Brix (74 +/- 0.5%), Ash (1.5 +/- 0.5%)

Cane Syrup/Molasses Blend
*Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses: Sugars (67 grams), Brix (est. 80%)

First Boil Molasses
Homemaid (Domino) Molasses: Sugars (65-75 grams), Brix (79-80%), Ash (2-6%)
*Crosby Fancy (Gold Star) Molasses: Sugars (65-75 grams), Brix (78-80%), Ash (3% max)
*Steen’s Dark Molasses: Sugars (71.5 grams), Brix (79.5%), Ash (3.5%)
Groeb Farms Golden Molasses: Sugars (66 grams min), Brix (79%), Ash (4.0% max)
*Grandma’s Original Molasses: Sugars (67 grams), Brix (est. 80%)
*Brer Rabbit Mild Flavor Molasses: Sugars (65 grams), Brix (est. 79%)

Second Boil Molasses
*Brer Rabbit Full Flavor Molasses: Sugars (62 grams), Brix (est. 79%), Ash (2-5%)
*Grandma’s Robust Molasses: Sugars (62 grams), Brix (est. 79%), Ash (5%)
*Plantation Barbados Molasses: Sugars (62 grams)

Third/Final Boil Molasses
*Brer Rabbit Blackstrap Molasses: Sugars (45 grams)
*Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses: Sugars (est. 52 grams)
*Plantation Blackstrap Molasses: Sugars (est. 52 grams)

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Very informative and detailed write-up! 

Norma

[Overstrike]

Hello, I’ve been following this thread for a while, trying recipes when I can, and generally just learning as I go along. I'm interested in trying an experiment at home, baking 3 pies with 3 different types of molasses' that I can get hold of. Those being the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses, and Grandma's Original Molasses.

Using peter's chart (which was very informative ^.^) they all fall in different categories. My experiment would simply be to make 3 identical pies with the only difference being the molasses. I'm not too interested in getting the correct color, more in getting the "sweetness factor" in line with mellow mushrooms nutritional facts. I believe it was stated a while ago that mellow mushrooms claims that they only use molasses in there pizza, and this is more to satisfy my own curiosity with using just molasses.

I'll be using KASL, but what I need help in is factoring the proper sugar amounts. Per Peters chart the Supreme Baking Molasses, and Grandma's both have the same Sugar amount and Brix Percentage. So those should be able to be interchanged without having to alter the numbers. It's the Blackstrap molasses with the lower amount of sugar where the numbers would have to be changed to accommodate the higher volume of molasses being used. So can you guys help me put together a recipe for some small pizza's to test out?

[Pete-zza]

Overstrike,

The main purpose of this thread is to try to reverse engineer and clone an MM dough, not to come up with something that is different, even if it might be better than a real MM dough. The Sugars are one element but there are others as well, including Carbohydrates, total water content (the 40% requirement), and workable hydration values. I will see whether I can come up with something using the molasses products you mentioned that will meet the requirements I have established as benchmarks, or at least most of them. If the numbers are too far out of line, I will let you know. Since you mentioned small pizzas, I take that to mean 10" pizzas. These exercises require a lot of calculations, all of which can consume a fair amount of time, so it may take me a while to complete the assignment.

Peter

[norma427]

Overstrike,

Maybe as an alternative to doing what you would like to do is to try the MM#7 formulation Peter set-forth at Reply 1526 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg175954.html#msg175954 and see if you like that formulation first.  That formulation can be used with Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses or Grandma’s Original Molasses and KASL. The MM#7 formulation does seem to have the right amount of sweetness in the crust for Steve and me.

Did you ever try that formulation before?  It can easily be converted to a smaller pizza using the expanded dough calculation tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html  Also did you ever eat a real MM pizza?

Norma

[Overstrike]

I'm sorry; I wasn't implying that I wanted to come up with something different, I should have been more clear. There is a mellow mushroom close to where I live that I frequent. I have tried to make many of the MM clones that have been posted in this forum. Like I said I have been following this topic for a while now, and have read many of the posts, but I am still learning. Since I believe mellow mushroom claims to only use molasses I wanted test out different types of molasses against one another and an authentic mellow mushroom pizza. This is an experiment that I wanted test between the 4 to taste similarities or differences. Its hard to take someone's word on how good or bad something is until you try it yourself, know what I mean?

Norma, Thanks for the info, I can most certainly use that in my test ^.^

[norma427]

Overstrike,

I know it is hard to take someone’s word for something if you didn’t try it yourself.  I can understand that, but didn’t you think the MM#7 clone dough formulation tasted anything like a MM pizza when using the Grandma’s Original Baking Molasses or the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses?  I had visited the MM in DC and maybe your MM near you doesn’t taste the same as the MM in DC.  That has been reported on this thread before that different MM pizzas looked or tasted different in sweetness of the crust.  Is that why you want Peter to do the calculations?  Maybe I am not understanding what you are trying to do.  Sorry, if I am confused. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma and Overstrike,

I believe I know what Overstrike is asking for. He is correct that the MM clone dough formulations for the Grandma's Original Molasses and the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses should have similarities. However, they are different in their Carbohydrate values, so that difference will require a slight adjustment. The tougher nut is the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses, although I think that I can crack that nut. What I don't know is how well the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses version will work in practice. I am pretty confident about the other two formulations.

I will come up with some proposed MM clone formulations using the three molasses products tomorrow. I plan to use a modification of MM#8. I expect that all three formulations will come pretty close to the MM numbers but they won't produce real MM clones. I believe that they will yield doughs with adequate sweetness, but from a color standpoint I believe that of the three molasses products the Grandma's Original Molasses is likely to come the closest to a real MM dough/crust. The Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses doesn't stand a chance on color. 

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for explaining more what you believe Overstrike is asking for. 

Norma

[Overstrike]

Sorry for the confusion Norma  I live in the middle of Georgia, and access to some ingredients are hard to come by. I'm Lucky in that I can get access to two different Mellow Mushrooms, one where I live and another about an hour and a half away near my in-laws. I have noticed that the MM near me tends to have a sweeter crust then the one at my in-laws place.

This experiment is mostly a personal taste test with the ingredients that I am able to get a hold of. From what I have seen not all MM taste the same, and this is sorta a starting point for me to lock in on a clone from my local restaurant, using the ingredients I can get. Its hard to make a "Perfect" Clone to a pizza that is inconsistent with each restaurant, and personal taste. So I have to work with what I got, to get the taste that matches as close as possible

[norma427]

Sorry for the confusion Norma  I live in the middle of Georgia, and access to some ingredients are hard to come by. I'm Lucky in that I can get access to two different Mellow Mushrooms, one where I live and another about an hour and a half away near my in-laws. I have noticed that the MM near me tends to have a sweeter crust then the one at my in-laws place.

This experiment is mostly a personal taste test with the ingredients that I am able to get a hold of. From what I have seen not all MM taste the same, and this is sorta a starting point for me to lock in on a clone from my local restaurant, using the ingredients I can get. Its hard to make a "Perfect" Clone to a pizza that is inconsistent with each restaurant, and personal taste. So I have to work with what I got, to get the taste that matches as close as possible

Overstrike,

You didn’t have to apologize.  I am the one that get confused sometimes and asks too many questions. 

I didn’t know the two MM near you tasted different in terms of the sweetness.  Since you are in Georgia I guess the doughs the two MM uses are fresh doughs not frozen.  Did you ever ask the MM near you if the dough balls are fresh?  Can you purchase a dough ball at either place near you?  It would be interesting to see how they would compare in looks, color, and how they handle if you could purchase any.  I believe that is one part of this thread that is confusing just how much sweetness each MM crust has.  Since you have tasted two near you, and they do have different sweetness in their crusts, I find that interesting. 

Best of luck in making your perfect clone MM! 

BTW, can you purchase the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses in Georgia, or did you have to purchase them on the internet?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Overstrike,

As promised, I have set forth below three dough formulations using the three molasses products you mentioned--the Grandma’s Original Molasses, the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, and the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses. To be able to keep track of these formulations, I have designated them MM#9 (1.0), MM#9 (2.0), and MM#9 (3.0). All three of the formulations come pretty close to the benchmarks I have been using except that the MM#9 (3.0) formulation using the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses is somewhat on the low side from the standpoint of Carbohydrates. The reason for this is mainly because the large amount of the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses needed to meet the Sugars number reduced the amount of flour in the formulation, which itself is a source of carbohydrates. As previously mentioned, I have the greatest doubts about the formulation using the Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses, mainly because I have not done any experiments using only blackstrap molasses to be able to see if there were any performance issues. 

Since I was working from limited data in some cases, which required that I make some estimates in the absence of complete data, you may have to do some tweaking of the ingredients, mainly to achieve a level of overall hydration that will produce dough balls that are cohesive and smooth. I suspect such tweaking, if necessary, will be minor since the hydration numbers seem to line up, even though the “adjusted” and “effective” hydration values are not identical in all cases. That would have taken hours of calculations to fine tune.

I also did not use any bowl residue compensation. In my case, because of the small dough ball weights, I have been using my Cuisinart 14-cup food processor to prepare the MM clone doughs. For that machine, I have been using a bowl residue compensation of around 3-4%. Whatever bowl residue compensation value you use, you want the final dough ball weights to be about 317.5 grams (11.2 ounces). All of the formulations are for 10” pizzas. And all the numbers are based on using the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour. For those who may want to attempt one of the formulations but do not have the KASL flour, the All Trumps flour should be a reasonable substitute.

I like the premise of your experiments, since the experiments may help confirm some of my theories and speculation on the MM dough, so I hope you will report back on your findings.

Grandma’s Original Molasses Clone Dough Formulation (MM#9, 1.0)

KASL Flour (100%): Water (Spring Water) (50.7%): IDY (0.70%): Salt (1.82%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.5%): Grandma’s Original Molasses (13%): Total (167.72%):

189.32 g  |  6.68 oz | 0.42 lbs 95.98 g  |  3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs 1.33 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 3.45 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 2.84 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 24.61 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs 317.52 g | 11.2 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Dough is for a single 10” pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses Clone Dough Formulation (MM#9, 2.0)

KASL Flour (100%): Water (Spring Water) (50.7%): IDY (0.70%): Salt (1.82%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.5%): Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses (12%): Total (166.72%):

190.45 g  |  6.72 oz | 0.42 lbs 96.56 g  |  3.41 oz | 0.21 lbs 1.33 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 3.47 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 22.85 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs 317.52 g | 11.2 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Dough is for a single 10” pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses Clone Dough Formulation (MM#9, 3.0)

KASL Flour (100%): Water (Spring Water) (51.4%): IDY (0.70%): Salt (1.82%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.5%): Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses (18%): Total (173.42%):

183.09 g  |  6.46 oz | 0.4 lbs 94.11 g  |  3.32 oz | 0.21 lbs 1.28 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp 3.33 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 2.75 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 32.96 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs 317.52 g | 11.2 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Dough is for a single 10” pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Starting late yesterday afternoon and until this morning, I conducted an oil and gluten mass test that appears to show promise as a way of determining the amount of oil in a dough. For purposes of the test, I used the following dough formulation:

Oil/Gluten Mass Test MM Clone Dough Formulation

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): Water (Spring Water) (51%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (1.50%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.46%): Molasses (11.5%): Total (167.06%):

84.85 g  |  2.99 oz | 0.19 lbs 43.27 g  |  1.53 oz | 0.1 lbs 0.51 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp 1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 9.76 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.41 tsp | 0.47 tbsp 141.75 g | 5 oz | 0.31 lbs | TF = N/A

As noted above, I used King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF). Also, although not noted above, I used a bowl residue thickness factor of 3%, but scaled the final dough ball weight back to 5 ounces. So, within the limitations of my scale, the above dough formulation reflects the quantities of ingredients, including 2.09 grams of soybean oil, that should have been in the final 5-ounce dough ball. The above dough ball had been frozen for a few days and then defrosted for purposes of the test. I wanted my dough ball to be in the same condition as a real MM dough ball.

To conduct the joint oil/gluten mass test, I decided to use a 4-quart clear glass Pyrex measuring cup. One of the reasons I decided to use that cup (there is a second reason to be noted below) is because I wanted to see how the starches in the dough would settle out at the bottom of the measuring cup, and to what degree. I did the in-situ gluten mass test entirely in the Pyrex measuring cup. I would say that it took about 15 minutes to conduct the entire gluten mass test. For the first ten minutes, I used both hands to wash away everything but the gluten. For the last five minutes, the gluten mass was small enough for me to use just one hand. I tried as carefully as I could so as not to spill any of the liquid onto my work surface. A few drops escaped here and there but not enough to affect the test. I will have more to say about the gluten mass below but, as with past gluten mass tests, I let the gluten mass for this test rest on a paper towel for a minute before weighing.

I then let the liquids in the Pyrex measuring cup rest for about a half hour in order to let the solids settle out at the bottom of the measuring cup. Once I was satisfied that the solids had settled out of the solution, I gradually and carefully poured just the liquid part of the solution into a tall (6 1/4”) drinking glass. Since my Pyrex measuring cup is clear, I was able to see where the liquid ended and the solids began. I wasn’t able to keep all of solids out of the drinking cup but I keep most of them out of the liquid I poured into the drinking glass.

As the tall drinking glass was set aside to let any remaining solids settle out (as it later turned out, there was just a thin layer of starch at the bottom of the glass), I decided to conduct a second, side test. Specifically, I wanted to see if it was possible that some of the oil in the liquid might have been trapped in the starch. So, I diluted the starch in the Pyrex measuring cup with enough water to fill two smaller (5”) drinking glasses about half way. I than let the solids resettle out of the liquids again. That took about 20 minutes. I then combined just the liquids in the two smaller drinking glasses into a second tall drinking glass, and stirred the liquid to disperse the starches and anything else that might have been in the starches. I wasn’t trying to be particularly scientific about this part of the test. From what I could tell, all of the action seemed to be in the first tall drinking glass. As you experienced with your own oil test, the liquids in the two tall drinking glasses were a light brown color due to the molasses.

I then put both tall drinking glasses into the freezer. I might mention at this point that I did not see any signs of oil on the surfaces of the liquids in the two tall drinking glasses. Remember, the dough had only 2.09 grams of oil, or just shy of ½ teaspoon. My initial thought was that for some reason I was unable to capture that small amount of oil from the liquids.

By morning, not knowing what to expect, I checked the two tall water glasses. Apparently, a lot happened overnight in the freezer. The first water glass had a viscous substance at the perimeter of the glass that appeared to be oily. Apparently that viscous substance rose to the top of the glass during the freezing process. It had a brownish tint, just as the gluten mass had a darker color than normal, most likely because of the molasses. I scraped off as much of the viscous substance as possible even though I knew that I was also scraping away part of the ice at the same time. I also saw that some of the viscous substance appeared to be trapped between the ice and the glass at the perimeter. Its color was the same as what I scraped off of the ice. So, I simply let the ice defrost for about ten minutes and then scraped away as much of the viscous substance as I could, along with some of the ice, which was unavoidable. I was not particularly worried about the ice part, since I was planning to heat the viscous substance to drive out the moisture content anyway. To retain the viscous mass during the heating step, I used a small (2 1/8” diameter) metal lid. I selected that lid because I wanted it to have sufficient surface area to expedite the drying process.

As for the second tall drinking glass, I saw no signs of any viscous substance at the top of that glass. What was in the glass seemed to be all ice. I took that to mean that it perhaps was unlikely that there was oil oil trapped in with the starches. I do not see any need to repeat this test in future experiments. I might point out, however, that there was a lot more starch at the bottom of the second tall drinking glass than at the bottom of the first tall drinking glass.

To conduct the heat part of the test, I put the metal lid with the viscous mass in it into my countertop toaster oven that was set at around 212 degrees F. I heated the lid until it was clear that the water part of the mixture had been driven off but with fluidity of the viscous substance. I did not want to go any further than that because I did not want to denature the oil or any molasses also contained in the mixture. I would say that it took about an hour to achieve this state. I then let the lid cool off (I didn’t want to harm my digital scale or get erratic readings) and then weighed the cooled viscous substance. The weighing I got was 2 grams. This is versus the 2.09 grams of oil that I believe was in the 5-ounce dough ball. Since my scale is only accurate to 0.1 gram, I can’t say what a more accurate measurement might have been.

As a final step, I then tasted the viscous substance. It seemed to be an oily substance but with a bit of sweetness. It did not look or feel like a fresh oil right out of the bottle. Maybe in a future oil experiment, I can try leaving out the molasses just to see if the oil takes on a different character. However, I think today’s test does warrant further experimentation.

Now, with respect to the ancillary in-situ gluten mass test, I got a gluten mass value of 37.3 grams. That was for 84.85 grams of KABF (as noted in the above dough formulation). When I extrapolated that to 170.1 grams of KABF, or 6 ounces, as we have used in most of our gluten mass tests, I got a gluten mass value of 74.78 grams, or 2.64 ounces. If you look at the Master list of gluten mass values at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177835.html#msg177835, you will see that my latest normalized gluten mass value is very close to what is reported for the KABF in the Master gluten mass test. This leads me to conclude that an in-situ gluten mass test is perhaps a good alternative to using the running tap water method for gluten mass tests.

Peter

[Overstrike]

Hey Norma, I have never purchased dough from them, but I can definitely inquire about the freshness of there dough when I go to get the pizza/dough (If I can purchase just the dough). As for the molasses I had to purchase the Golden Barrel brand online, as the only type I can get in the store is grandma's...Well there are "Local off-brand" made in your backyard molasses, from the gas station/general store/butcher/BBQ place. As you can imagine getting consistent numbers and flavors is very difficult. 

Thanks so much Peter for the assistance, as soon as I can get everything set up for the test, I will post what results I find, hopefully with photos ^.^

[norma427]

Norma,

Starting late yesterday afternoon and until this morning, I conducted an oil and gluten mass test that appears to show promise as a way of determining the amount of oil in a dough. For purposes of the test, I used the following dough formulation:

Oil/Gluten Mass Test MM Clone Dough Formulation

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): Water (Spring Water) (51%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (1.50%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.46%): Molasses (11.5%): Total (167.06%):

84.85 g  |  2.99 oz | 0.19 lbs 43.27 g  |  1.53 oz | 0.1 lbs 0.51 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp 1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 9.76 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.41 tsp | 0.47 tbsp 141.75 g | 5 oz | 0.31 lbs | TF = N/A

As noted above, I used King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF). Also, although not noted above, I used a bowl residue thickness factor of 3%, but scaled the final dough ball weight back to 5 ounces. So, within the limitations of my scale, the above dough formulation reflects the quantities of ingredients, including 2.09 grams of soybean oil, that should have been in the final 5-ounce dough ball. The above dough ball had been frozen for a few days and then defrosted for purposes of the test. I wanted my dough ball to be in the same condition as a real MM dough ball.

To conduct the joint oil/gluten mass test, I decided to use a 4-quart clear glass Pyrex measuring cup. One of the reasons I decided to use that cup (there is a second reason to be noted below) is because I wanted to see how the starches in the dough would settle out at the bottom of the measuring cup, and to what degree. I did the in-situ gluten mass test entirely in the Pyrex measuring cup. I would say that it took about 15 minutes to conduct the entire gluten mass test. For the first ten minutes, I used both hands to wash away everything but the gluten. For the last five minutes, the gluten mass was small enough for me to use just one hand. I tried as carefully as I could so as not to spill any of the liquid onto my work surface. A few drops escaped here and there but not enough to affect the test. I will have more to say about the gluten mass below but, as with past gluten mass tests, I let the gluten mass for this test rest on a paper towel for a minute before weighing.

I then let the liquids in the Pyrex measuring cup rest for about a half hour in order to let the solids settle out at the bottom of the measuring cup. Once I was satisfied that the solids had settled out of the solution, I gradually and carefully poured just the liquid part of the solution into a tall (6 1/4”) drinking glass. Since my Pyrex measuring cup is clear, I was able to see where the liquid ended and the solids began. I wasn’t able to keep all of solids out of the drinking cup but I keep most of them out of the liquid I poured into the drinking glass.

As the tall drinking glass was set aside to let any remaining solids settle out (as it later turned out, there was just a thin layer of starch at the bottom of the glass), I decided to conduct a second, side test. Specifically, I wanted to see if it was possible that some of the oil in the liquid might have been trapped in the starch. So, I diluted the starch in the Pyrex measuring cup with enough water to fill two smaller (5”) drinking glasses about half way. I than let the solids resettle out of the liquids again. That took about 20 minutes. I then combined just the liquids in the two smaller drinking glasses into a second tall drinking glass, and stirred the liquid to disperse the starches and anything else that might have been in the starches. I wasn’t trying to be particularly scientific about this part of the test. From what I could tell, all of the action seemed to be in the first tall drinking glass. As you experienced with your own oil test, the liquids in the two tall drinking glasses were a light brown color due to the molasses.

I then put both tall drinking glasses into the freezer. I might mention at this point that I did not see any signs of oil on the surfaces of the liquids in the two tall drinking glasses. Remember, the dough had only 2.09 grams of oil, or just shy of ½ teaspoon. My initial thought was that for some reason I was unable to capture that small amount of oil from the liquids.

By morning, not knowing what to expect, I checked the two tall water glasses. Apparently, a lot happened overnight in the freezer. The first water glass had a viscous substance at the perimeter of the glass that appeared to be oily. Apparently that viscous substance rose to the top of the glass during the freezing process. It had a brownish tint, just as the gluten mass had a darker color than normal, most likely because of the molasses. I scraped off as much of the viscous substance as possible even though I knew that I was also scraping away part of the ice at the same time. I also saw that some of the viscous substance appeared to be trapped between the ice and the glass at the perimeter. Its color was the same as what I scraped off of the ice. So, I simply let the ice defrost for about ten minutes and then scraped away as much of the viscous substance as I could, along with some of the ice, which was unavoidable. I was not particularly worried about the ice part, since I was planning to heat the viscous substance to drive out the moisture content anyway. To retain the viscous mass during the heating step, I used a small (2 1/8” diameter) metal lid. I selected that lid because I wanted it to have sufficient surface area to expedite the drying process.

As for the second tall drinking glass, I saw no signs of any viscous substance at the top of that glass. What was in the glass seemed to be all ice. I took that to mean that it perhaps was unlikely that there was oil oil trapped in with the starches. I do not see any need to repeat this test in future experiments. I might point out, however, that there was a lot more starch at the bottom of the second tall drinking glass than at the bottom of the first tall drinking glass.

To conduct the heat part of the test, I put the metal lid with the viscous mass in it into my countertop toaster oven that was set at around 212 degrees F. I heated the lid until it was clear that the water part of the mixture had been driven off but with fluidity of the viscous substance. I did not want to go any further than that because I did not want to denature the oil or any molasses also contained in the mixture. I would say that it took about an hour to achieve this state. I then let the lid cool off (I didn’t want to harm my digital scale or get erratic readings) and then weighed the cooled viscous substance. The weighing I got was 2 grams. This is versus the 2.09 grams of oil that I believe was in the 5-ounce dough ball. Since my scale is only accurate to 0.1 gram, I can’t say what a more accurate measurement might have been.

As a final step, I then tasted the viscous substance. It seemed to be an oily substance but with a bit of sweetness. It did not look or feel like a fresh oil right out of the bottle. Maybe in a future oil experiment, I can try leaving out the molasses just to see if the oil takes on a different character. However, I think today’s test does warrant further experimentation.

Now, with respect to the ancillary in-situ gluten mass test, I got a gluten mass value of 37.3 grams. That was for 84.85 grams of KABF (as noted in the above dough formulation). When I extrapolated that to 170.1 grams of KABF, or 6 ounces, as we have used in most of our gluten mass tests, I got a gluten mass value of 74.78 grams, or 2.64 ounces. If you look at the Master list of gluten mass values at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177835.html#msg177835, you will see that my latest normalized gluten mass value is very close to what is reported for the KABF in the Master gluten mass test. This leads me to conclude that an in-situ gluten mass test is perhaps a good alternative to using the running tap water method for gluten mass tests.

Peter

Peter,

Glad to hear you conducted an oil and gluten mass test that shows promise in determing the oil in a dough.  When you conducted the gluten mass test did you use warm water?  I didn’t see anything that looked like oil when I conducted my oil/gluten mass test either until it was frozen.  All it looked like was some bubbles on the top of the drinking glass or Pyrex bowl.  I also though the oil must have risen to the top of the drinking glass/Pyrex bowl during the freezing.  As you probably saw in the test that I did letting the mixture set out to ferment, there appeared to be only bubbles on the surface, unless I couldn’t see the oil.  My viscous substance also had the brownest tint as could be seen on my pictures.  Your idea to use a metal lid to do the oil test was a good idea.  Good also you saw no viscous substance on the second tall drinking glass.  That does probably mean that there were no trapped oil in with the starches.  So, do you believe that two drinking glasses are needed to do the oil test? 

I wonder why your oily substance after the heat test of the oil was sweet and not salty like mine.  Do you think I did something wrong in my heat test of the oil?  I also think your tests does warrant further experimentation. 

I see that the number for your gluten mass value did come very close to what is reported for the KABF in the Master gluten mass test.  I am glad you think the in-situ gluten mass tests is perhaps a good alternative to using the running tap water method for the gluten mass tests.  Do you think I should use the in-situ method for my other two gluten mass tests I want to conduct?

Norma

[norma427]

Hey Norma, I have never purchased dough from them, but I can definitely inquire about the freshness of there dough when I go to get the pizza/dough (If I can purchase just the dough).

Thanks so much Peter for the assistance, as soon as I can get everything set up for the test, I will post what results I find, hopefully with photos ^.^

Overstrike,

Good to hear you can inquire about if MM dough is fresh or frozen when your MM gets its dough.  If you can purchase some dough it would be interesting to see how it would bake and taste in comparison to one of the formulations Peter set-forth.  All ovens bake differently, but at least it would let you know if using one of your formulations would taste the same as using a real MM dough ball.

I will be interested in your results.  Post some pictures if you can.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I knew you were going to ask me about the water temperature and I even thought to modify my last post to say that the water was at tap water temperature (around 75 degrees F lately), but I figured I could wait until you posted. I had intended to use warm water but simply forgot. However, in retrospect, I think that using warm water makes more sense when you are at the end of the gluten knead, to remove any oil that might be trapped in the gluten mass. Also, if the water used in the in-situ method is warm, it will approach the temperature of the room quite quickly, long before 15 minutes.

As far as doing a "two drinking glass test", I do not believe that that is necessary. This was confirmed to my satisfaction yesterday after I decided to leave both glasses sit on my countertop to see what would happen. Actually, there were a couple of observations. First, I noticed that the longer the two glasses remained on my countertop, the more the molasses seemed to settle toward the bottoms of the glasses. The liquid in the upper parts of the glasses was cloudy but not brownish. Second, the second tall drinking glass with most of the starches, started to ferment, much as you experienced with your recent test. There was a lot of bubbling and, in short order, the entire liquid turned to a color like a vanilla milkshake. It is still actively bubbling this morning. By contrast, there was little change in the liquid and its color in the first tall drinking glass yesterday, although there are a few bubbles this morning. The layer of starches in that glass is maybe 1/16". This tells me that the starches are intimately involved in the fermentation process. There are several enzymes in flour and the yeast that ultimately convert complex sugars, like starch, to glucose, which is then used by the yeast to produce alcohol and carbon dioxide. There is also some glucose in the flour initially (a fraction of a percent) and also in the molasses (along with fructose) to further the production of alcohol and carbon dioxide. It's also quite possible that the yeast was trapped in with the starches, and that might help explain why the liquid in the first tall glass has not changed much. The bottom line is that I don't see any need to use the second tall glass as part of the test unless you like to watch chemistry at work .

Based on your comment about the saltiness of the viscous mass you retrieved from your test, I went back and tasted mine. Whereas yesterday I detected sweetness, this morning it was the saltiness. Maybe it is just my tastebuds. I don't think you did anything wrong.

As I mentioned in my last post, at some point I'd like to do another oil test but leave out the molasses. I'd like to see if the viscous mass is more like fresh oil. Solely for that test, I might still use two glasses just to see what effect omitting the molasses has on fermentation of the ingredients in the glass with the bulk of the starches.

With respect to using the in-situ method for the two flours on which you plan to conduct gluten mass tests, I think I would stick with the running water method rather than changing horses midstream. That way we don't have to use asterisks to note that the method used was changed.

As a closing comment, I might also note that even if our oil tests do not come up with the exact amount of oil by weight, the difference can be used to modify the results using a piece of a real MM dough. For example, if our oil tests show a difference in the weight of the oil that was added to the doughs, whether it is because molasses or salt or anything else is trapped in the viscous mass retrieved from the liquids or because some of the oil is trapped in the gluten mass or elsewhere, the percent weight difference can be used to modify the results achieved using a piece of a real MM dough to conduct an oil test since the real MM dough would be subject to the same forces and events as our doughs. But, for now, I would not use "Bob", your remaining piece of the original MM dough that Chicago Bob sent to you, to conduct an oil test. It is perhaps better reserved for color comparison purposes.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I knew you were going to ask me about the water temperature and I even thought to modify my last post to say that the water was at tap water temperature (around 75 degrees F lately), but I figured I could wait until you posted. I had intended to use warm water but simply forgot. However, in retrospect, I think that using warm water makes more sense when you are at the end of the gluten knead, to remove any oil that might be trapped in the gluten mass. Also, if the water used in the in-situ method is warm, it will approach the temperature of the room quite quickly, long before 15 minutes.

As far as doing a "two drinking glass test", I do not believe that that is necessary. This was confirmed to my satisfaction yesterday after I decided to leave both glasses sit on my countertop to see what would happen. Actually, there were a couple of observations. First, I noticed that the longer the two glasses remained on my countertop, the more the molasses seemed to settle toward the bottoms of the glasses. The liquid in the upper parts of the glasses was cloudy but not brownish. Second, the second tall drinking glass with most of the starches, started to ferment, much as you experienced with your recent test. There was a lot of bubbling and, in short order, the entire liquid turned to a color like a vanilla milkshake. It is still actively bubbling this morning. By contrast, there was little change in the liquid and its color in the first tall drinking glass yesterday, although there are a few bubbles this morning. The layer of starches in that glass is maybe 1/16". This tells me that the starches are intimately involved in the fermentation process. There are several enzymes in flour and the yeast that ultimately convert complex sugars, like starch, to glucose, which is then used by the yeast to produce alcohol and carbon dioxide. There is also some glucose in the flour initially (a fraction of a percent) and also in the molasses (along with fructose) to further the production of alcohol and carbon dioxide. It's also quite possible that the yeast was trapped in with the starches, and that might help explain why the liquid in the first tall glass has not changed much. The bottom line is that I don't see any need to use the second tall glass as part of the test unless you like to watch chemistry at work .

Based on your comment about the saltiness of the viscous mass you retrieved from your test, I went back and tasted mine. Whereas yesterday I detected sweetness, this morning it was the saltiness. Maybe it is just my tastebuds. I don't think you did anything wrong.

As I mentioned in my last post, at some point I'd like to do another oil test but leave out the molasses. I'd like to see if the viscous mass is more like fresh oil. Solely for that test, I might still use two glasses just to see what effect omitting the molasses has on fermentation of the ingredients in the glass with the bulk of the starches.

With respect to using the in-situ method for the two flours on which you plan to conduct gluten mass tests, I think I would stick with the running water method rather than changing horses midstream. That way we don't have to use asterisks to note that the method used was changed.

As a closing comment, I might also note that even if our oil tests do not come up with the exact amount of oil by weight, the difference can be used to modify the results using a piece of a real MM dough. For example, if our oil tests show a difference in the weight of the oil that was added to the doughs, whether it is because molasses or salt or anything else is trapped in the viscous mass retrieved from the liquids or because some of the oil is trapped in the gluten mass or elsewhere, the percent weight difference can be used to modify the results achieved using a piece of a real MM dough to conduct an oil test since the real MM dough would be subject to the same forces and events as our doughs. But, for now, I would not use "Bob", your remaining piece of the original MM dough that Chicago Bob sent to you, to conduct an oil test. It is perhaps better reserved for color comparison purposes.

Peter

Peter,

Lol, I believe you can read my mind when you posted you knew I was going to ask about if you used warm water.  Don’t get to far into my mind, that could be dangerous.    I sure don’t want anyone to be able to know what I am thinking.

Thanks for telling me it makes more sense to use warm water at the end of gluten knead, to remove any oil that might be trapped in the gluten mass.  I had kind of hoped, beyond hope, that you would post to use warm water for the gluten mass tests, because that method is a lot easier, but I haven’t tried your new in-situ method, so I don’t know how that will work. 

Glad to hear that you do not believe a “two drinking glass test” is necessary.  At least that saves me one step.  Your observations were interesting though when you decided to leave both glasses sit on your countertop to see what would happen.  Interesting to hear that your second tall drinking glass with most of the starches started to ferment.  Didn’t you also find that interesting?  My fermenting oil test also looked something like a far-out milkshake.  I wonder how long your oil test will keep bubbling.  Also glad you did the test so no one thinks I am nuts from letting an oil test ferment.  I like to watch chemistry at work, but am happy there is not need to let the starches and yeast ferment in future experiments. 

Do you have any explanation of why the viscous mass tasted sweet in your first test and now tasted salty this morning.  I also experienced that, but in a shorter time frame.  I thought somehow my taste buds must have been fooling me that the taste change from something like oil, but then changed to salty.  I also thought maybe because in my first taste really I hadn’t tasted enough of the viscous mass that might have been why the viscous mass didn‘t have the salty taste. 

I can make sense of your closing comments.  Maybe another member might want to do those tests. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Since I was looking for an oily taste and sensation for the viscous mass, I may have been distracted from the saltiness. Also, since the viscous mass had a brownish tint, which was due to the molasses, I was perhaps also expecting sweetness.

FYI, this morning I made and froze another 5-ounce dough ball, this time without any molasses. I also decided to keep the same amounts, by weight, of IDY, salt and oil as I did for the last test dough ball. That meant changing the amounts of flour and water. If I don't forget, I plan to use warm water in my Pyrex 4-cup measuring cup, and I plan to try to separate out as much of the starches as possible, as I did before. I will also conduct another gluten mass test. At least the oil and gluten mass will not have any brown color. It will be also be interesting to see if the oil has any saltiness. In the absence of sweetness or any other competing flavors (maybe some yeast?), the saltiness should be more perceptible.

I'm sure that some people will think that we have gone off the deep end. But, you and I know that there is a method to our madness .

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Since I was looking for an oily taste and sensation for the viscous mass, I may have been distracted from the saltiness. Also, since the viscous mass had a brownish tint, which was due to the molasses, I was perhaps also expecting sweetness.

FYI, this morning I made and froze another 5-ounce dough ball, this time without any molasses. I also decided to keep the same amounts, by weight, of IDY, salt and oil as I did for the last test dough ball. That meant changing the amounts of flour and water. If I don't forget, I plan to use warm water in my Pyrex 4-cup measuring cup, and I plan to try to separate out as much of the starches as possible, as I did before. I will also conduct another gluten mass test. At least the oil and gluten mass will not have any brown color. It will be also be interesting to see if the oil has any saltiness. In the absence of sweetness or any other competing flavors (maybe some yeast?), the saltiness should be more perceptible.

I'm sure that some people will think that we have gone off the deep end. But, you and I know that there is a method to our madness .

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining why you might have tasted sweetness in the viscous mass.  Will be interested in hearing how your viscous mass/gluten mass test turn outs if you use warm water.  I agree that using no molasses might help you to be able to perceive saltiness in your first taste of the viscous mass test.   Does yeast alone taste salty, or would it become salty from the mixture?  I never tasted plain IDY.  Might have to do a taste test on some plain IDY. 

I know some people might think we have gone off the deep end, but agree there is a method to our madness.  At least so far there have been interesting results that might be helpful in future reverse engineering projects if someone can get a sample dough ball.

Norma