Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?

[tonymark]

Norma,
What temp was that pie cooked at and how long?  I like the charred crust.  What was the diameter of that pizza?  What mozz did you use? 

Looks delicious!   How did it taste?

[norma427]

Norma,
What temp was that pie cooked at and how long?  I like the charred crust.  What was the diameter of that pizza?  What mozz did you use?  

Looks delicious!   How did it taste?

Tony,

The pizza using Dave’s formulation was baked at about 525 degrees, or a little higher.  It was baked in my Baker’s Pride deck oven at market.  The diameter of the pizza was a little over 12”, or maybe 13“.  I didn’t really measure it.  The blend of mozzarellas were my regular blend.  I used 50/50 Foremost Farms part-skim 1950 brand and Bella Fran whole milk low moisture mozzarellas.  The Bella Francesca mozzarella is from Sommer Maid Creamery in Doylestown, Pa., but I am not sure who actually makes it.  I purchase both mozzarellas though my distributor.  The pizza was baked between 5 to 6 minutes.  It was a short bake until it was finished baking.  

Steve, my taste testers and I thought the pizza tasted really good.  What we thought was strange, was it really didn’t  taste much different than when I used my regular MM#7 clone formulation Peter set-forth for me.  The texture of the rim was lighter than most of my other attempts and a different degree of sweetness could be tasted.  I sure don’t know why that was.

Norma

Edit:  I forgot to add that I did use Kyrol flour.

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Out of curiosity, I took the ingredients you used to make your version of Tampa's (Dave's) dough formulation and converted it to baker's percent format using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I then ran some of the basic numbers on the formulation as I have done countless times before with the various MM clones. Here is what your version of the Tampa/Dave dough formulation looks like:

Tampa/Dave Dough Formulation

Kyrol High-Gluten Flour (100%): Water (60%): IDY (0.502%): Salt (2.33333%): Domino Homemaid Molasses (6.66666%): Total (169.50199%):

150 g  |  5.29 oz | 0.33 lbs 90 g  |  3.17 oz | 0.2 lbs 0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 3.5 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.44 tsp | 0.48 tbsp 254.25 g | 8.97 oz | 0.56 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: No bowl residue compensation

Thickness factor for 12" pizza = 8.97/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.0793123 (vs. an average of 0.13336 for three MM pizza sizes of 10", 14" and 16")
Thickness factor for 13" pizza = 8.97/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.06758 (vs. an average of 0.13336 for three MM pizza sizes of 10", 14" and 16")
Percent of water in the dough in relation to the total dough ball weight = 44.44% (vs. about 40% for a real MM dough)
"Adjusted" hydration (to compensate for the water content of the molasses) = 61.33%

As you can see from the thickness factor values given above for the 12"-13" pizza you made, it is far less than the average of 0.13336 for the three pizza sizes that MM makes (it does not have a 12" or 13" pizza size). The individual thickness factors for the three pizza sizes that MM does offer can be seen in Reply 1071 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168252/topicseen.html#msg168252.

Not surprisingly, because of the high hydration value you used, the total water content of your dough is 44.44% of the total dough ball weight, or several percent higher than for a real MM dough (based on your hydration bake tests using a real MM dough). When I did my calculations of "effective" hydration values for the MM clone dough formulation I worked on, which took into account the oil used in MM's doughs (which you did not use in your latest dough) as well as the water content of the various sweeteners, the range was about 55-58%. The corresponding number for your dough is the 61.33% number given above.

As noted above, your version of the Tampa/Dave dough formulation does not include oil, which is one of the ingredients of a real MM dough. The yeast quantity, at around 0.50% IDY, is less than what I have been using inasmuch as my MM clone doughs were made to be frozen. But, I would say that 0.50% IDY should work reasonably well for, say, a one-day cold fermented dough. The salt level, at 2.33%, is higher than what the MM Nutrition Facts suggest but that amount of salt is not an unreasonable value. The lack of oil shouldn't be a major concern because the amount that I estimate that MM is using is quite small (a bit over 2%) and unlikely to be noticeable on the palate given the amount of molasses used that would have a tendency to mask the flavor of the oil. Also, at a bit over a couple percent, the oil is unlikely to have a major effect on the finished crust texture.

I can see how the pizza you made had similarities to some of the MM clones you have made but, as you noted, the bottom line is that the pizza you made does not meet the majority of the metrics for a real MM dough. However, that shouldn't discourage anyone from using the Tampa/Dave dough formulation. It uses a proper flour, it contains reasonable values for the yeast and salt, and it contains molasses. The crust will be thinner (by almost fifty percent) and it will also be softer than the MM clones we have tested because of the higher "adjusted" hydration value.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Norma,

I think the crust on that one looks a lot lighter than your other trials and am I wrong in thinking that the crumb looks very similar to your regular Market dough....wonder if your customers might maybe go for the lighter color crust now?

Bob

[norma427]

Norma,

Out of curiosity, I took the ingredients you used to make your version of Tampa's (Dave's) dough formulation and converted it to baker's percent format using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I then ran some of the basic numbers on the formulation as I have done countless times before with the various MM clones. Here is what your version of the Tampa/Dave dough formulation looks like:

Tampa/Dave Dough Formulation

Kyrol High-Gluten Flour (100%): Water (60%): IDY (0.502%): Salt (2.33333%): Domino Homemaid Molasses (6.66666%): Total (169.50199%):

150 g  |  5.29 oz | 0.33 lbs 90 g  |  3.17 oz | 0.2 lbs 0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 3.5 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.44 tsp | 0.48 tbsp 254.25 g | 8.97 oz | 0.56 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: No bowl residue compensation

Thickness factor for 12" pizza = 8.97/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.0793123 (vs. an average of 0.13336 for three MM pizza sizes of 10", 14" and 16")
Thickness factor for 13" pizza = 8.97/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.06758 (vs. an average of 0.13336 for three MM pizza sizes of 10", 14" and 16")
Percent of water in the dough in relation to the total dough ball weight = 44.44% (vs. about 40% for a real MM dough)
"Adjusted" hydration (to compensate for the water content of the molasses) = 61.33%

As you can see from the thickness factor values given above for the 12"-13" pizza you made, it is far less than the average of 0.13336 for the three pizza sizes that MM makes (it does not have a 12" or 13" pizza size). The individual thickness factors for the three pizza sizes that MM does offer can be seen in Reply 1071 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168252/topicseen.html#msg168252.

Not surprisingly, because of the high hydration value you used, the total water content of your dough is 44.44% of the total dough ball weight, or several percent higher than for a real MM dough (based on your hydration bake tests using a real MM dough). When I did my calculations of "effective" hydration values for the MM clone dough formulation I worked on, which took into account the oil used in MM's doughs (which you did not use in your latest dough) as well as the water content of the various sweeteners, the range was about 55-58%. The corresponding number for your dough is the 61.33% number given above.

As noted above, your version of the Tampa/Dave dough formulation does not include oil, which is one of the ingredients of a real MM dough. The yeast quantity, at around 0.50% IDY, is less than what I have been using inasmuch as my MM clone doughs were made to be frozen. But, I would say that 0.50% IDY should work reasonably well for, say, a one-day cold fermented dough. The salt level, at 2.33%, is higher than what the MM Nutrition Facts suggest but that amount of salt is not an unreasonable value. The lack of oil shouldn't be a major concern because the amount that I estimate that MM is using is quite small (a bit over 2%) and unlikely to be noticeable on the palate given the amount of molasses used that would have a tendency to mask the flavor of the oil. Also, at a bit over a couple percent, the oil is unlikely to have a major effect on the finished crust texture.

I can see how the pizza you made had similarities to some of the MM clones you have made but, as you noted, the bottom line is that the pizza you made does not meet the majority of the metrics for a real MM dough. However, that shouldn't discourage anyone from using the Tampa/Dave dough formulation. It uses a proper flour, it contains reasonable values for the yeast and salt, and it contains molasses. The crust will be thinner (by almost fifty percent) and it will also be softer than the MM clones we have tested because of the higher "adjusted" hydration value.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad your curiosity got to you, so now members or I can see the numbers in a baker’s percent format for Dave’s dough formulation. 

I see the TF is off for either a 12” or 13” pizza.  I tried to form a big rim like I did on my other MM attempts, but that couldn’t be done with the higher hydration of Dave’s formulation, or either I did not do it right.  I could tell it was a higher hydration dough ball when opening the dough ball, but it opened well.  Interesting to see the corresponding number for the “effective” hydration for my dough was 61.33%.

I know Dave’s formulation didn’t have any oil like a clone MM dough formulation has, or a MM dough has.  The yeast amount seemed to work out okay even though I froze the dough ball.  Maybe it was my non-defrosting freezer that didn’t damage the yeast as much and my freezer does freeze pretty fast.  I think the molasses might have masked the oil and salt, because using Dave’s formulation the pizza didn’t really taste that much different than some of the clone pizzas I made on this thread.  About the only think I noticed was the rim crust was lighter and somehow I guess from the higher “effective” hydration the texture of the rim was a little different.  There was still a sweetness in the crust, but not like some of my other attempts.

I knew when I used Dave’s formulation I was not using the majority of the metrics for a real clone MM dough.  I think Dave should be given credit though for coming up with a decent tasting pizza that did taste somewhat like a MM pizza.  I don’t know how he did that unless is did some experiments, or was just lucky.  If other members might want to try out Dave’s formulation you have now given them the baker’s percents to change the size of the pizza if they want to and even change the TF is they want to. 

Thanks for going though all those calculations again.  I guess it took you awhile to do them.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma,

I think the crust on that one looks a lot lighter than your other trials and am I wrong in thinking that the crumb looks very similar to your regular Market dough....wonder if your customers might maybe go for the lighter color crust now?

Bob

Bob,

The crumb was lighter than my other MM clone attempts.  I don't think the crumb looks really similar to my market dough. It has a moister crumb, at least to me.  My customers at market are hard to change their minds in trying a new type of pizza.  I have to think about trying to make a MM clone at market again.  I don't think any of my customers have ever see or heard of MM pizza.  I guess if they are used to something like a NY style pizza that is what they will pick over other pizzas.   

Norma

[cptbingo2000]

Here's an original, and then my dough ball.   One question...i am using #7 at .7% IDY, and was wondering if that will make it ready to come out of the fridge tomorrow, or Sunday?

[Signus]

I have to say folks, this is a surprise...

My favorite pizza place when I lived in Georgia was Mellow Mushroom (second to Pizza Inn). I haven't had any in going on about... 17 years. So here I come, fresh off making a deep dish pizza trying to look for another style to try and... my childhood pizza joint has a massive thread on it. I live in New England now, no hope of getting the real thing.

Unfortunately, a lot of this is way over my head. I found the formula 6 and 7 that was posted, and intend to make either of those, however... is there a dummy version? Is there anywhere in this thread that lays out, step by step, what one should do, or are all the posts scattered and mostly about theory, grams, and percentages?

I know I might be asking a lot, but I'm still a novice. I'll likely be substituting most of the ingredients in the formula with local supermarket equivalents (I know, defeating the purpose a bit, but I have to have this dough ready to cook Sunday), and I will NOT have most of the good tools.

So yes, hello all, amazing work! One last newbie question... I have a pizza stone that I use for frozen pizza, but I've noticed it infuses most pizzas with the flavor of the stone (which is good) but for this I just want the Mellow Mushroom flavor, what should I cook on? Thanks! 

[Pete-zza]

Signus,

No, there is no "dummy" version of the MM clone dough. When Norma and I and other members worked on this project, we discovered that there were many different types and brands of molasses and other sweeteners that were sometimes called "molasses" but were not technically molasses (like some sorghum sweeteners and cane syrups). Many of those molasses and molasses-like products were not readily available at most supermarkets and, in some cases, were available only from companies specializing in those products. As a result, we came up with many versions of MM clone doughs, with each one tailored to the particular type of sweetener used. To this day, we do not know what type or brand of sweetener MM is using to make its doughs, other than that MM says that it uses molasses in its dough as made in their commissary in the Atlanta area.

We did not come up with versions where the ingredients were specified by volumes. That might have been preferred by many of our members, especially newbies, but that would have made it virtually impossible to conduct the experiments. We had no choice but to use weights of ingredients. That meant using a scale to weigh out the flour and water and molasses or molasses-like products. For the rest of the ingredients, we used volume measurements as were specified by the expanded dough formulating tool (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html) that we used to come up with all of the MM clone dough formulations.

When I made my MM clones, I made the 10" size. Because of the small amounts of dough involved, and also because of the low hydration of the MM clone doughs, I used a food processor to make the doughs. The procedure was very simple. I combined the flour and the yeast in the bowl of my food processor (an old Cuisinart 14-cup model with the metal blade attached) and, in a Pyrex measuring cup, I combined the water (cold out of the refrigerator), salt, oil and molasses (or equivalent product). I then gradually added the liquid mixture to the mixer bowl while using the pulse feature. I mixed and kneaded the dough until it had a generally round, ball shape. However, the ball was not particularly cohesive. As I discussed in Reply 1146 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168585/topicseen.html#msg168585, I found it necessary to do some hand shaping and kneading to get the dough ball in the proper form.

By contrast, Norma made larger dough balls (for larger pizza sizes) and used a KitchenAid stand mixer. Norma describes the general method she used to make the MM clone doughs at Reply 1210 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169320/topicseen.html#msg169320.

The methods that Norma and I used to prepare and manage the MM clone doughs can be used with any of the MM clone dough formulations that we came up with. I did not try to make any MM clone dough by hand, and I believe the same applies to Norma. It would be quite difficult to make and hand knead an MM clone dough because of its low hydration. The MM clone doughs, and a real MM dough as well, are pretty stiff and dense doughs.

As for the proper baking medium to use for MM clone pizzas, Norma and I have used pizza stones. In Norma's case, she baked her MM clone pizzas in a commercial deck oven at market (and on occasion on a pizza stone in her home oven). I used a Cordierite pizza stone in my basic electric oven.

Good luck. I hope you will come back and report on the dough formulation and ingredients/brands you used and the results you got.

Peter

[norma427]

Here's an original, and then my dough ball.   One question...i am using #7 at .7% IDY, and was wondering if that will make it ready to come out of the fridge tomorrow, or Sunday?

cptbingo2000,

When Peter set-for the the MM#7 formulation for me at Reply 834 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161938.html#msg161938  the amount of IDY at 0.60% was for a dough ball that was supposed to be frozen first and thawed out for about a day in the refrigerator.  The amount of yeast was higher incase the freezer damaged the yeast.  I think you will have to watch how your dough ball cold ferments if you used 0.70% IDY.  It probably wouldn’t be the end of the world though, if it ferments a little too much, since it is a lower hydration dough.  I have used doughs balls that looked like they were overfermented and when opening them they were fine.

Norma

[norma427]

Signus,

I did not mix any of my MM clone dough balls by hand either.  These pizzas can be baked in a home oven on a pizza stone.  You don't need the really high temperatures in a home oven to be able to bake these pizzas.

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Signus,

If you have a screen, I would use that.....for this type of pie I have seen others use upside down cast iron pans and cookie sheets. If you go with a cookie sheet don't place it real low in your oven.

First time I've heard someone say their stone tastes funny..

[cptbingo2000]

cptbingo2000,

When Peter set-for the the MM#7 formulation for me at Reply 834 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161938.html#msg161938  the amount of IDY at 0.60% was for a dough ball that was supposed to be frozen first and thawed out for about a day in the refrigerator.  The amount of yeast was higher incase the freezer damaged the yeast.  I think you will have to watch how your dough ball cold ferments if you used 0.70% IDY.  It probably wouldn’t be the end of the world though, if it ferments a little too much, since it is a lower hydration dough.  I have used doughs balls that looked like they were overfermented and when opening them they were fine.

Norma

Thanks Norma!  What would be a good yeast percentage to use then if I wanted to let it ferment in the fridge for a day or two but not freeze it?

[norma427]

Thanks Norma!  What would be a good yeast percentage to use then if I wanted to let it ferment in the fridge for a day or two but not freeze it?

cptbingo2000 ,

It would probably depend on what your final dough temperature in what percentage of IDY you might want to use in a one or two day cold ferment.  I would think anywhere around 0.30 % to 0.48% IDY depending on if you want to let the dough ferment for one or two days.  Those aren’t really accurate numbers though, because the final dough temperature also has to be figured in.  The dough should ferment alright though, unless your final dough temperature is too high.  

If the dough doesn’t ferment enough, you can always let it out at room temperature until you see that the dough ball has fermented enough, if it didn’t cold ferment enough.  Depending on the ambient room temperature of where the dough balls is warming-up, or fermenting more, it can ferment at different rates.  If the dough ball looks like it is fermenting to fast at ambient room temperatures, it can always be put back into the fridge until you are ready to use it.  

Norma

[Signus]

Signus,

If you have a screen, I would use that.....for this type of pie I have seen others use upside down cast iron pans and cookie sheets. If you go with a cookie sheet don't place it real low in your oven.

First time I've heard someone say their stone tastes funny..

Oh the stone tastes plenty good, just, it adds something. I'd rather just taste the pizza, not the stone as well.

Thank you for the responses everyone. The links were very helpful. It was difficult to track them down myself because, well, the thread is massive! I'm not terribly interested in experimenting for the first pizza, not confident enough yet to experiment!

It seems for the sauce the conclusion is that it should be naturally sweet tomatoes without any extra sugar, and Italian spices?

Also, is freezing the dough necessary for #7? I'm not sure I'll have time to freeze and thaw for it to be ready to cook for Sunday dinner.

And last, I know the molasses is a tough topic and you are constantly experimenting, but if you had to make a choice for the molasses you'd find at an average supermarket, what brand would you pick?

This is going to be dodgy, as I lack the majority of tools that you guys are using. I don't have a scale, or a processor. But I'll improvise and see what comes out.

Thanks again, I'm sorry if a lot of my questions dredge up things already covered, but I am quite confused haha. Everything is much appreciated! Hopefully tomorrow I'll be baking my childhood pizza !

[norma427]

Signus,

I used my regular sauce that I use at market for my attempts.  It is something like MM, at least in my opinion.  If you have access to Classcio tomato products (from WalMart), I think they would make a decent sauce, at least in my opinion.  You could add a few spices to the Classico tomato products if you like spices added.  You can use the search function to look about the Classico tomato products.

The freezing of the dough for the MM#7 formulation is not necessary.  Peter and I only did it that way to try and do what the MM commissary does. 

I don’t know what Peter will recommend, but I find Brer Rabbit mild flavor molasses or Grandma’s Original molasses works well in the MM#7 formulation, and at least in my area are fairly easy to find in supermarkets.

I don’t know how to give you the weights to use in volume measurements.  A cheap digital scale only is about 20.00 some dollars.  That is what I use at home.  If you are going to be doing experiments with pizzas from this forum on making different types of pizzas, that price isn’t really bad, compared to purchasing many pizzas.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Signus,

To add to wha Norma has already said, if you want to make a roughly two-day cold fermented MM clone dough, you might use about 0.45% IDY. As for the flour, you might want to look for the King Arthur bread flour in the supermarket. Since you don't have a scale, you might want to use the flour measuring method (often called the "Textbook" method) to measure out the amount of flour as shown in the King Arthur video at http://how2heroes.com/videos/dessert-and-baked-goods/bakers-tip-measuring-flour. An even better method--because it is more exact--is to use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ to convert the flour weight in the MM#7 formulation to a volume measurement using the King Arthur bread flour in the Substance pull-down menu and the Textbook entry in the Measurement Method pull-down menu.

I agree with  Norma on the choice of molasses.

Peter

[Signus]

Well it turns out the kind of molasses I had in my house was Grandma's Original, so that worked out well.

I wasn't able to find any of the recommended tomato products, except for Classico Pasta sauce. I didn't get it because it already came mixed with spices and garlic and such, and my impression from this thread is that Mellow Mushroom only has light spice flavoring and relies more on the sweetness of the tomatoes. The only recipe for sauce I have, and have used, is a spice heavy one, so I'm going to try to modify it.

I like a thin sauce, so I put whatever the final product is through the blender first. But, in terms of tomato product type, would you folks recommend a mixture of paste and skinned tomatoes? Just regular sauce and whole tomatoes, none of the above?

And about what temperature should I cook at? I should have it done late tonight!

Thanks again for all the help. I'm almost there!

[Pete-zza]

Signus,

I'm afraid that you will have to do the best you can with the tomato paste and tomatoes, and spices. I think the more important thing for now is to just get an MM clone pizza under your belt and improve upon the sauce next time if you are happy with your results.

As far as bake temperature is concerned, I have been using around 500-525 degrees F with my Cordierite stone and electric oven. My bake time has been around 7-8 minutes. I go by the color of the top and bottom crusts as to when I should pull the pizza from the oven.

Peter

[Signus]

Thanks! I do plan to improve on the recipe after I get the basics down, better more and more accurate measurements and materials. For now this should be enough.