Author Topic: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00  (Read 3606 times)

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Offline mivler

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King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« on: September 11, 2006, 11:18:44 PM »
Hi,

I have been making pizza with King Arthur flour (bread flour and/or high gluten) for years. I have made many different recipes with this flour. I finally ordered Caputo 00. I have only made 5 pizzas with it (one batch) The dough made with the Caputo 00 was able to take more sauce, wetter sauce and more wet toppings. The cooked crust stayed dry. This was a problem I have always had with dough made with the King Arthur flour. In order to compensate for the wetness soaking though the cooked crust with King Arthur flour  I usually cook down my sauce or use a thicker sauce with drier or less toppings. Does anyone know why I had so much success with the Caputo flour? Iím glad that I invested in the 55lb bag.

Any thoughts would be appreciated

I used the following recipes:

For Caputo flour
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg25344.html#msg25344

For King Arthur High Gluten (This is the recipe I have been using recently)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg11359.html#msg11359


Thanks,

Michael




Online Pete-zza

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2006, 11:40:45 PM »
Michael,

It may be because the Caputo skin you made has a much higher thickness factor than the Raquel skin you made. Looking at the two dough formulations you referenced, the thickness factor for the Caputo dough is 0.12. For the Raquel dough it is 0.077 for the 15" size and 0.068 for the 16" size. So, the Caputo skin was much thicker than the Raquel skin. That would allow you to load more on the Caputo skin. To know for sure which dough performs better for your purposes, you would have to make both a Caputo skin and a Raquel skin using the same thickness factor and with the same diameter and use the same quantities of sauce, cheese and toppings and then compare the two.

Peter

Offline mivler

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Caputo 00 vs King Arthur Bread Flour and High Gluten
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2006, 10:55:29 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure that's the issue. Although I followed the recipes to make to dough, I shaped both of the pizza's using the Pizza Raquel instructions. I didnít measure the size or thickness of the pizzas, but they were similar. Next time I will be more accurate in making sure the thickness is the same and topping the pizza with the same type and amount of cheese, sauce and other toppings.

One difference is that my King Arthur flour was purchased about 6 months ago. I keep it in Ziploc bags in the freezer. The Caputo Pizzeria flour just arrived in the mail last week. Could the age have anything to do with it?

I am looking forward to doing a more accurate comparison. I will report the results.

Thanks again for your ideas.

Michael

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2006, 11:15:07 PM »
Michael,

I don't believe the relative ages of the flours explains your results. If you knew the sizes of the two pizzas, I might have been able to use the dough ball weights to recalculate the actual thickness factors you used. I'd be happy to revisit the matter when you make the pizzas again.

Peter


Offline mivler

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2006, 10:24:04 PM »
Thanks I really appreciate your thoughts. Next time I'm going to measure the size.

Michael

Offline sanrensho

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2006, 12:49:39 AM »
Hey Everyone, I've been reading pizzamaking.com for about 6 months now and thoroughly enjoying everyone's posts! I learned a LOT from this forum and thought I would show you what I've been up to these last few months.

Here is a picture of my home oven rig:
http://images18.fotki.com/v330/photos/8/82945/3859537/IMG_8335-vi.jpg

The stone at the bottom came from Williams Sonoma and is really a nice stone. Tiles on top from Home Depot. Just before I shot that pic, the needle on the bottom thermometer was near 6 o'clock, so I think the oven was pretty hot. This is a Caputo pie I cooked in the oven:
http://images18.fotki.com/v24/photos/8/82945/3859537/IMG_8349-vi.jpg

I've not really been that happy with the Caputo though. The crusts have turned out somewhat tough. Lately have been experimenting with KABF. Seems to be a pretty awesome flour in terms of taste and color. Here are my latest results:
http://images19.fotki.com/v18/photos/8/82945/3859537/IMG_8459-vi.jpg
http://images18.fotki.com/v16/photos/8/82945/3859537/IMG_8456-vi.jpg
http://images19.fotki.com/v292/photos/8/82945/3859537/IMG_8467-vi.jpg
http://images18.fotki.com/v16/photos/8/82945/3859537/IMG_8468-vi.jpg
http://images17.fotki.com/v309/photos/8/82945/3859537/IMG_8469-vi.jpg
http://images19.fotki.com/v292/photos/8/82945/3859537/IMG_8451-vi.jpg

The crust ended up really puffing up, much more so that with the Caputo. When I took it out of the even it was a little "noisy", something I had not experienced with the Caputo. I spread the dough out almost as much as I could..before cooking, the pie was about 12" in diameter with around 260gm of dough. The edges were thicker than the middle, but I did try to flatten them out somewhat. I left a border of about 2".

Cheese was low-moisture whole milk mozz, sliced (I used to grate but slicing is way easier..) My wife and I both prefer the taste compared to the fresh stuff (both from Trader Joe's). As for the sauce, it's crushed plum tomatoes from Trader Joe's as well. I've tried 6-7 different italian brands but the Trader Joe's have a slightly tangier taste, maybe due to a higher tomato paste content?

Anyway thanks for all the great posts, I'm hoping to get really good at this someday.
















Offline scott r

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2006, 01:15:23 AM »
WOW!!!

Way to go.  That's a hell of a first post.  Sounds like you are already going strong.

You are right about the caputo.  It doesn't puff up as much as most American pizza flours.  If you had a Neapolitan wood burning oven that would be a good thing!  I think 2 to 2.5 minutes is about the slowest you can use straight Caputo and get a worthwile pie.  If your pies take any longer than that it is best to stick with the good old US of A or do a blend.

You can try pulling your Caputo pies out sooner.  They may look a little underdone but they won't be as tough.  Because you are pulling the pies out early you may need to use a lower hydration dough.

Good luck, welcome to the form and keep up the good work!!!!

p.s. I made one of the best pies of my life last night with King Arthur Bread flour.

Offline varasano

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 01:23:57 AM »
ditto to what scott says (as usual)

Jeff

Offline sanrensho

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2006, 11:43:10 PM »
Thanks Scott. I didn't know that baking it too long could toughen the crust. I'll give the Caputo another chance and take it out earlier.

Dave

Offline mivler

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2006, 01:55:32 PM »
I'm glad to hear that comment about the toughness of the Caputo pizza. I have never had that happen with KASL or KABF. I thought I had over mixed the dough. I'm hoping to do a side by side comparison of KA and Caputo this weekend.

Michael


Offline mivler

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2006, 05:35:06 AM »
Pete-zza,

I just wanted to let you know that (as usual), you were right. The difference was the thickness. One of the things that I never really did was calculate the thickness of the dough. It wasn't until I started making Raquel that I noticed the soggy crust. Then I got a bag of Caputo and I did not have that problem (I was using a different recipe). Since your post I started calculating thickness. With Raquel I had been making it as thin as I could easily make it (Not sure exactly but it I was making about 5, 15 inch crusts with double the recipe. I belived that is about .06 thickness. It's funny how obvious that seems now, but making my crust too thin with KASL was never a problem before. Now that I calculate the thickness, soggy crust is never a problem. ( I had been struggeling with this problem for several months)

Anyway I just wanted to thank you for the advice.

Michael

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Re: King Arthur Bread/High Gluten vs Caputo 00
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2006, 09:45:17 AM »
Michael,

My pleasure.

With experience you will get a better feel for how to match the particular dough formulation you decide to use, the crust thickness, and what you put on top of the dough in relation to your particular oven and oven temperature. When I use a particular dough formulation, and especially a proven one, I try to stick with the instructions given until it becomes clear that I have to make changes to make the formulation work in my oven. It took me quite a while to learn that I couldn't expect to follow a classical Neapolitan style dough formulation intended to be used at very high oven temperatures and get it to work the same in my standard home oven. I had to play around with hydration levels, thickness factors, bake time, use of oil, etc., to get a satisfactory product.

Peter